Tamils vs Tamils (Removal of Hindi signboards in Madurai)

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:

Rashmun wrote:the only way you can explain the existence of the dravidian language Brahui in Pakistan is we agree that the dravidians were pushed to SI by the aryans because the aryans were militarily stronger. Otherwise what is your explanation for Brahui ?

i do not believe this theory because it is speculative. a band of tamilians speak a quaint gujarati in TN. does it mean gujaratis were pushed out of TN?

Rashmun wrote:

bw wrote:

Rashmun wrote:

good point. the fact is that the Vedas were composed in NI. the gods were NI because the people who were imagining and conceptualizing these Gods were NI's. Major hindu gods like Shiva, Rama, and Krishna are placed in Lord Kailasa which is in Tibet but close to NI (for Shiva) ; Mathura/Vrindavan (for Krishna) ; and Ayodhya (For Rama).

does this mean that historically, north indians were more superstitious and succumbed more to hocus-pocus than the south indians?

the only south indians at the time the rig veda was composed were a few tribals who specialized in climbing coconut trees.

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:in 2003 i made fun of a sulekha poster who claimed krishna was a NI. it is 2013 but i cannot make fun of rashmun because this time i am dealing with a scholar. woe is me!

Rashmun wrote:No, in this case the Gujaratis immigrated to TN. The question is: do you then believe that South Indians migrated (in fairly large numbers) to present day Pakistan?

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:

Rashmun wrote:

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:in 2003 i made fun of a sulekha poster who claimed krishna was a NI. it is 2013 but i cannot make fun of rashmun because this time i am dealing with a scholar. woe is me!

Even the renowned sulekha scholar sandilya had claimed that SI was for the most part uninhabited at the time the Vedas and Upanisads were composed. Let us not sacrifice Truth at the altar of political correctness.

i really do not know much about this subject but i do see that current findings suggest that the IVC or post IVC was a pan indian phenomena, stretching to bangladesh and port cities in the south. there has to be continuity between this civilization and vedic (a post IVC) civilization. to say south india was uninhabited is a stretch.

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:

Rashmun wrote:the only way you can explain the existence of the dravidian language Brahui in Pakistan is we agree that the dravidians were pushed to SI by the aryans because the aryans were militarily stronger. Otherwise what is your explanation for Brahui ?

i do not believe this theory because it is speculative. a band of tamilians speak a quaint gujarati in TN. does it mean gujaratis were pushed out of TN?

panini press wrote:

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:

Rashmun wrote:

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:in 2003 i made fun of a sulekha poster who claimed krishna was a NI. it is 2013 but i cannot make fun of rashmun because this time i am dealing with a scholar. woe is me!

Even the renowned sulekha scholar sandilya had claimed that SI was for the most part uninhabited at the time the Vedas and Upanisads were composed. Let us not sacrifice Truth at the altar of political correctness.

i really do not know much about this subject but i do see that current findings suggest that the IVC or post IVC was a pan indian phenomena, stretching to bangladesh and port cities in the south. there has to be continuity between this civilization and vedic (a post IVC) civilization. to say south india was uninhabited is a stretch.

Correct. Southern India was colonized by our species around 60,000 years ago.

bw wrote:

Rashmun wrote:

bw wrote:

Rashmun wrote:

good point. the fact is that the Vedas were composed in NI. the gods were NI because the people who were imagining and conceptualizing these Gods were NI's. Major hindu gods like Shiva, Rama, and Krishna are placed in Lord Kailasa which is in Tibet but close to NI (for Shiva) ; Mathura/Vrindavan (for Krishna) ; and Ayodhya (For Rama).

does this mean that historically, north indians were more superstitious and succumbed more to hocus-pocus than the south indians?

the only south indians at the time the rig veda was composed were a few tribals who specialized in climbing coconut trees.

a far more useful task, i must say, than writing fairy tales about three-faced, four-handed gods and goddesses. gave them exercise as well as food.

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:

Rashmun wrote:No, in this case the Gujaratis immigrated to TN. The question is: do you then believe that South Indians migrated (in fairly large numbers) to present day Pakistan?

i am disinclined to forward any theory of mass migration based on language markers. it is not a question of being PC. this is a trap old scholars fell for. any theory of mas migration must have archaeological or genetic support and not just language alone. dravidian language itself might not be native to india. it shares affinity with old languages of iran like elamite: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elamo-Dravidian_languages

in the above link, brahui speakers describe themselves as immigrants from south india.

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:in the above link, brahui speakers describe themselves as immigrants from south india.

bw wrote:deities are NI? don't they live up there in the heaven or something? is heaven also part of NI?

Merlot Daruwala wrote:

bw wrote:deities are NI? don't they live up there in the heaven or something? is heaven also part of NI?

Of course. These days, it's called Delhi. The most powerful of the deities resides at 10 Janpath Road.

panini press wrote:There is a BIG contradiction in claiming that the Rig Veda was composed in NI and saying that SI was empty at the time. The theory by which SI was empty at the time the Rig Veda was composed, and got populated by Dravidians who went south, also has the Rig Veda and many of the other vedas composed outside India. By that theory, the Aryan people who already had their vedas (composed outside India) displaced the Dravidians in the Sindhu-Saraswati region and pushed them south. By that theory, even much of the post-vedic literature was composed outside of the Gangetic plain, in Afghanistan, Pakistan and the Punjab.

bw wrote:

Rashmun wrote:

bw wrote:

Rashmun wrote:

good point. the fact is that the Vedas were composed in NI. the gods were NI because the people who were imagining and conceptualizing these Gods were NI's. Major hindu gods like Shiva, Rama, and Krishna are placed in Lord Kailasa which is in Tibet but close to NI (for Shiva) ; Mathura/Vrindavan (for Krishna) ; and Ayodhya (For Rama).

does this mean that historically, north indians were more superstitious and succumbed more to hocus-pocus than the south indians?

the only south indians at the time the rig veda was composed were a few tribals who specialized in climbing coconut trees.

a far more useful task, i must say, than writing fairy tales about three-faced, four-handed gods and goddesses. gave them exercise as well as food.

Rashmun wrote:

bw wrote:

Rashmun wrote:

bw wrote:

Rashmun wrote:

good point. the fact is that the Vedas were composed in NI. the gods were NI because the people who were imagining and conceptualizing these Gods were NI's. Major hindu gods like Shiva, Rama, and Krishna are placed in Lord Kailasa which is in Tibet but close to NI (for Shiva) ; Mathura/Vrindavan (for Krishna) ; and Ayodhya (For Rama).

does this mean that historically, north indians were more superstitious and succumbed more to hocus-pocus than the south indians?

the only south indians at the time the rig veda was composed were a few tribals who specialized in climbing coconut trees.

a far more useful task, i must say, than writing fairy tales about three-faced, four-handed gods and goddesses. gave them exercise as well as food.

there are some very interesting things mentioned in the Rig Veda. very interesting lessons in morality, philosophy, and life in general. let me know if you would care to take a look at some of my blogs on the Rig Veda.

bw wrote:

Rashmun wrote:

bw wrote:

Rashmun wrote:

bw wrote:


does this mean that historically, north indians were more superstitious and succumbed more to hocus-pocus than the south indians?

the only south indians at the time the rig veda was composed were a few tribals who specialized in climbing coconut trees.

a far more useful task, i must say, than writing fairy tales about three-faced, four-handed gods and goddesses. gave them exercise as well as food.

there are some very interesting things mentioned in the Rig Veda. very interesting lessons in morality, philosophy, and life in general. let me know if you would care to take a look at some of my blogs on the Rig Veda.

sure. though i must confess that i find most indian works on philosophy rather hard to comprehend and way too complicated.

something simple like The Prophet is far more accessible.

Rashmun wrote:

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:bw: "deities are NI? don't they live up there in the heaven or something? is heaven also part of NI?"

Yeah, while Rashmin is at it he should also check in which part of UP Yama lives.

Good joke! on a serious note, one other thing to note is that the sanskrit language originates in NI.

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:

Rashmun wrote:

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:bw: "deities are NI? don't they live up there in the heaven or something? is heaven also part of NI?"

Yeah, while Rashmin is at it he should also check in which part of UP Yama lives.

Good joke! on a serious note, one other thing to note is that the sanskrit language originates in NI.

There is no evidence for that! UP was also most likely a tribal area during early Sanskrit era.

If Sanskrit originated in the subcontinent, it might have come from the North-west (punjab, POK, J&K?, Gandhar, Uzbek, Indo-Iranian border area.....).

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:bw: "deities are NI? don't they live up there in the heaven or something? is heaven also part of NI?"

Yeah, while Rashmin is at it he should also check in which part of UP Yama lives.

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:

Rashmun wrote:

at the time the Vedas were composed the population of SI was minimal. So all of these deities, i think, are actually NI.

You Naarthies do need that many deities to save you. Please take as many of them as possible. Or, did all these deities got fed up with the Naarthie studpidities and migrated to south?

Hope they are all anti-hindi by now.

goodcitizn wrote:

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:bw: "deities are NI? don't they live up there in the heaven or something? is heaven also part of NI?"

Yeah, while Rashmin is at it he should also check in which part of UP Yama lives.

goodcitizn wrote:

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:bw: "deities are NI? don't they live up there in the heaven or something? is heaven also part of NI?"

Yeah, while Rashmin is at it he should also check in which part of UP Yama lives.

panini press wrote:

goodcitizn wrote:

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:bw: "deities are NI? don't they live up there in the heaven or something? is heaven also part of NI?"

Yeah, while Rashmin is at it he should also check in which part of UP Yama lives.

I have the answer. Yama lives in Yamrajpur village, Mahasi taluk, Bahraich district, Devipatan division, Gorakhpur region, Uttar Pradesh state. His PIN code is 271824.

http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_parts-of-bahraich-district-in-up-facing-flood-like-situation_1279045
http://pincode.indiaonline.in/BO/Mahasi-BO-79454

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:this is by far the most entertaining thread of 2013.

Propagandhi711 wrote:Twilight zone thread..if this douchemunullah gangothrivedi ever decides to get married in a church and the priest asks if anyone knows a reason why the goat and the drooling man shouldn't get married, one can simply standup and wave printouts of this thread. That should convince any priest of this douche's precarious hold over reality

Vidya Bagchi wrote:this thread gave me a headache.

Rashmun wrote:Not too long ago one of his close Internet friends broke communication with HA on the ground that HA is completely mean, malicious, vicious and vindictive. HA has been a shadow of himself since then.

Rashmun wrote:

Propagandhi711 wrote:Twilight zone thread..if this douchemunullah gangothrivedi ever decides to get married in a church and the priest asks if anyone knows a reason why the goat and the drooling man shouldn't get married, one can simply standup and wave printouts of this thread. That should convince any priest of this douche's precarious hold over reality

Propa the numerous kicks you have received from me seem to have taken a toll on your mental balance.

kinnera wrote:

Vidya Bagchi wrote:this thread gave me a headache.

I stopped reading it after the moron started talking like the DMK and other dravidian fanatics whose propaganda is: shun and hate hinduism, hindu gods, hindu scriptures, hindu vedas, mantras, upanishads, etc because hinduism originated in north india, hindu gods are north indian, hindu vedas, mantras and upanishads were conceived in north india in a north indian language. A nice way to divide the small country which is just abt the size of texas. Of course, the moron does it in the name of synthesis, integration and all but whenever he tries to do that, it has the opposite effect.

Propagandhi711 wrote:

Rashmun wrote:

Propagandhi711 wrote:Twilight zone thread..if this douchemunullah gangothrivedi ever decides to get married in a church and the priest asks if anyone knows a reason why the goat and the drooling man shouldn't get married, one can simply standup and wave printouts of this thread. That should convince any priest of this douche's precarious hold over reality

Propa the numerous kicks you have received from me seem to have taken a toll on your mental balance.

no it was the kukri wounds that did me in. I was mortally wounded in the battle under the sun in the plains of gangotri. here HA, take my shield and sword. I'm dying what one hopes is a hero's death at the hands of the great internet warrior douchemunullah gangotrivedi.

Rashmun wrote:

kinnera wrote:

Vidya Bagchi wrote:this thread gave me a headache.

I stopped reading it after the moron started talking like the DMK and other dravidian fanatics whose propaganda is: shun and hate hinduism, hindu gods, hindu scriptures, hindu vedas, mantras, upanishads, etc because hinduism originated in north india, hindu gods are north indian, hindu vedas, mantras and upanishads were conceived in north india in a north indian language. A nice way to divide the small country which is just abt the size of texas. Of course, the moron does it in the name of synthesis, integration and all but whenever he tries to do that, it has the opposite effect.

At the time the Rig Veda was written there were only a few coconut tree climbing tribals in SI. Of course later on a galaxy of thinkers emerged from SI who contributed to the development of Hindu philosophy and religion. Synthesis does not mean telling lies. Any symthesis must be on the basis of truth.

Vidya Bagchi wrote:Munmun, sab tere maje le rahe hain. maybe you know that already.

kinnera wrote:

Rashmun wrote:

kinnera wrote:

Vidya Bagchi wrote:this thread gave me a headache.

I stopped reading it after the moron started talking like the DMK and other dravidian fanatics whose propaganda is: shun and hate hinduism, hindu gods, hindu scriptures, hindu vedas, mantras, upanishads, etc because hinduism originated in north india, hindu gods are north indian, hindu vedas, mantras and upanishads were conceived in north india in a north indian language. A nice way to divide the small country which is just abt the size of texas. Of course, the moron does it in the name of synthesis, integration and all but whenever he tries to do that, it has the opposite effect.

At the time the Rig Veda was written there were only a few coconut tree climbing tribals in SI. Of course later on a galaxy of thinkers emerged from SI who contributed to the development of Hindu philosophy and religion. Synthesis does not mean telling lies. Any symthesis must be on the basis of truth.

If you understood the Upanishads, you won't be talking abt north india and south india. Petty minds can only think pettily and talk pettily.

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:@ rashmun. here is one discovery that indicates harrapan and post harrapan civ. extended to the south. in the last few years there have been many such discoveries. if post harrapan civ. extended to the southernmost tip of gujarat, there is no logical reason to believe why it would not stretch even further south. lothal also serves to remind us that the civilization was not confined to the indo-gangetic plains and ports were preferred, of which many were available in the south. the lack of a serious excavation effort is the problem (and this problem will not go away for whatever excavation was done was done largely by motivated colonials and we lack the motivation). that the south was uninhabited in vedic times is nonsense.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/states/symbols-akin-to-indus-valley-culture-discovered-in-kerala/article26324.ece

Rashmun wrote:The IVC people did not know sanskrit though.

What the article at the link i give is saying is that the IVC script (on the seals, etc.) is not a language and this is acceptable.

From the evidence i have seen though i believe the IVC people were distinct from the Aryan people.

Rashmun wrote:HK, please take a look at this:

http://safarmer.com/frontline/

Romila Thapar has endorsed the views of Witzel and Farmer. I should point out that i do not agree with everything Witzel and Farmer say but on this particular issue they have made a very convincing case and their views on this enjoy the support of two of the foremost scholars of the IVC in the world: Asko Parpola and Iravatham Mahadevan. (you can read the supportive comments of Parpola and Mahadevan in one of the articles whose links Farmer gives).

• i do not deny there once were aryans and that they came to india from outside. they also introduced the horse to india and also sanskrit (not as we know sanskrit to be though).
  
  
• i have taken care to stress on "post harrapa" in my posts. the cemetry H culture is POST harappa. IVC was declining and the inhabitants had started moving inland. the aryans, who were already in contact with the IVC people, followed the IVC people to cemetery H areas and settled with them. vedic culture was born from this mixing. cemetery H's language was multilingual. rajaram ascribes this event (the mixing) to the mature harappan stage -- rajaram is wrong and has a hindutva agenda. actually rajaram ascribes everthing sanskrit and vedic to IVC or mature harrapan and denies the existence of aryans -- he is obviously wrong. the fusion between the aryans and the IVC people happened much later in cemetery H (in full bloom for it was already happening earlier in snatches which bring me to my next point).
  
  
• as the authors note, 4% of the rig veda (considered the unadulterated sanskrit of purely foreign origin) has 4% loan words from a punjabi language that has an affinity with munda. so even the rig veda is corrupted by local languages. it goes to show that what followed, sanskrit and the vedas and the upanishads, were a collaborative effort of the post harrapans and aryans. it is wrong to give any one of them sole authorship over it.
  
  
• racially too the aryans and IVC people are indistinguishable. as i said earlier, a genetic study confirmed that the IVC people and the people inhabiting the IVC region today are of the same stock (i will have to find the link). if this is true, then please take me to pakistan and punjab and haryana and show me who the aryans are and who the IVC people? if they have intermingled, did not this intermingling take place in harappan times or is it that there was never an intermingling but an exchange of culture, ideas, language and commerce?

Rashmun wrote:From the evidence i have seen though i believe the IVC people were distinct from the Aryan people.

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:

Rashmun wrote:HK, please take a look at this:

http://safarmer.com/frontline/

Romila Thapar has endorsed the views of Witzel and Farmer. I should point out that i do not agree with everything Witzel and Farmer say but on this particular issue they have made a very convincing case and their views on this enjoy the support of two of the foremost scholars of the IVC in the world: Asko Parpola and Iravatham Mahadevan. (you can read the supportive comments of Parpola and Mahadevan in one of the articles whose links Farmer gives).

i read it -- skipped few parts.

see, i do not disagree with witzel and farmer. they are absolutely right. here are my points:

• i do not deny there once were aryans and that they came to india from outside. they also introduced the horse to india and also sanskrit (not as we know sanskrit to be though).
  
  
• i have taken care to stress on "post harrapa" in my posts. the cemetry H culture is POST harappa. IVC was declining and the inhabitants had started moving inland. the aryans, who were already in contact with the IVC people, followed the IVC people to cemetery H areas and settled with them. vedic culture was born from this mixing. cemetery H's language was multilingual. rajaram ascribes this event (the mixing) to the mature harappan stage -- rajaram is wrong and has a hindutva agenda. actually rajaram ascribes everthing sanskrit and vedic to IVC or mature harrapan and denies the existence of aryans -- he is obviously wrong. the fusion between the aryans and the IVC people happened much later in cemetery H (in full bloom for it was already happening earlier in snatches which bring me to my next point).
  
  
• as the authors note, 4% of the rig veda (considered the unadulterated sanskrit of purely foreign origin) has 4% loan words from a punjabi language that has an affinity with munda. so even the rig veda is corrupted by local languages. it goes to show that what followed, sanskrit and the vedas and the upanishads, were a collaborative effort of the post harrapans and aryans. it is wrong to give any one of them sole authorship over it.
  
  
• racially too the aryans and IVC people are indistinguishable. as i said earlier, a genetic study confirmed that the IVC people and the people inhabiting the IVC region today are of the same stock (i will have to find the link). if this is true, then please take me to pakistan and punjab and haryana and show me who the aryans are and who the IVC people? if they have intermingled, did not this intermingling take place in harappan times or is it that there was never an intermingling but an exchange of culture, ideas, language and commerce?