one thing i dislike about the american public education system

by MaxEntropy_Man Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:10 am

to cram physics, chem, and bio into one year and one AP course each in high school. i really think this is a disservice to students. the alternative model of chopping it up and doing all three subjects all four years is a much better idea, but we have no choice. sucks.

by Guest Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:17 am

Yeah I was so surprised when I was told that last year during counseling. I asked the counselor 2-3 times to confirm it.

by Guest Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:25 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:to cram physics, chem, and bio into one year and one AP course each in high school. i really think this is a disservice to students. the alternative model of chopping it up and doing all three subjects all four years is a much better idea, but we have no choice. sucks.

It isn't allowed here. The student can only do two science subjects in one year, not all the three.

by MaxEntropy_Man Sun Mar 03, 2013 12:03 pm

nenu wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:to cram physics, chem, and bio into one year and one AP course each in high school. i really think this is a disservice to students. the alternative model of chopping it up and doing all three subjects all four years is a much better idea, but we have no choice. sucks.

It isn't allowed here. The student can only do two science subjects in one year, not all the three.

i know that it's not the way it's done here, and i was by no means suggesting that they should do all three AP courses in the same year. their AP syllabus for any one course, say physics, is what we covered over two years in india (11th and 12th grades).

by Guest Sun Mar 03, 2013 12:17 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
nenu wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:to cram physics, chem, and bio into one year and one AP course each in high school. i really think this is a disservice to students. the alternative model of chopping it up and doing all three subjects all four years is a much better idea, but we have no choice. sucks.

It isn't allowed here. The student can only do two science subjects in one year, not all the three.

i know that it's not the way it's done here, and i was by no means suggesting that they should do all three AP courses in the same year. their AP syllabus for any one course, say physics, is what we covered over two years in india (11th and 12th grades).

By here, i meant Georgia. A student is not allowed to do all the three science subjects in one year as it would be too much. I misunderstood it as your daughter doing all the AP science subjects in one year. I assumed that it's allowed because she's in a magnet school.

Yeah, it's true. The AP course syllabus is huge. Sonny is struggling, esp with Physics and Calculus. Sonny has done AP Physics B in his junior year, though its grade won't be transferred to most colleges. It's a prerequisite to AP Physics C, which he's doing now, in his senior year. It's not required to do AP Physics B. He could've done the regular Physics and jumped to AP Physics C (its grades are transferable to collages). We thought that doing AP Physics B would be helpful when he does the 'C' in his senior yr. Not the case. As long as he gets a 4 in his AP exams, I'll be happy.

by MaxEntropy_Man Sun Mar 03, 2013 12:20 pm

she is in a charter school but the AP course offerings and the way they are administered is no different from any other school. they just see a lot more a lot earlier. she is like a kid in a candy store right now and it's scaring me a bit that she is biting off more than she can chew.

by Guest Sun Mar 03, 2013 12:35 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:she is in a charter school but the AP course offerings and the way they are administered is no different from any other school. they just see a lot more a lot earlier. she is like a kid in a candy store right now and it's scaring me a bit that she is biting off more than she can chew.

A friend's son goes to a charter/magnet (I'm confused abt the two) school and she's constantly stressed about him. I remember that her son was doing AP physics either in his freshman or sophomore year. That's crazy!

by MaxEntropy_Man Sun Mar 03, 2013 12:40 pm

right now she is going to do ap bio next (sophomore) year, ap calc bc (they are not going to do calc ab, but going directly to calc bc) and ap chem in the junior year and ap physics c (directly) in the senior year. in addition to all this she wants to continue with her foreign language, ap euro history and ap economics.

i can help her with all of calc, physics, and chem. so she has strong support at home, but i am not sure she will be able to keep up with all that and all the other subjects she wants to take, and pursue BN at the intensity at which she is doing right now.

by Guest Sun Mar 03, 2013 12:52 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:right now she is going to do ap bio next (sophomore) year, ap calc bc (they are not going to do calc ab, but going directly to calc bc) and ap chem in the junior year and ap physics c (directly) in the senior year. in addition to all this she wants to continue with her foreign language, ap euro history and ap economics.

i can help her with all of calc, physics, and chem. so she has strong support at home, but i am not sure she will be able to keep up with all that and all the other subjects she wants to take, and pursue BN at the intensity at which she is doing right now.

crazy! crazy! Sonny would be done with 10 AP courses and 2 college courses (dual enrollment) by the time he finishes HS. In spite of that, he got deferred for his dream college. He talked to the admissions counselor on why he got deferred. Her response: "you have too much in your bucket. When you wanted to do engineering, you should've focused more on math and science courses. You did all the unnecessary honors courses and AP courses in other subjects. 6 AP courses in the relevant subjects would've been sufficient. Your GPA would've been more had you not wasted your time on other subjects." She is right. His weighted score is 93.4%. It could've been much higher had he loosened up his curriculum. GPA matters a lot in college admissions.

Edit PS: Apart from that, he has a lot of extra curricular activities too which keep him busy all the time.

by MaxEntropy_Man Sun Mar 03, 2013 1:42 pm

i am comfortable with going directly to calc bc (because she has been in the topmost math class in middle school and now freshman year all along and has consistently performed at the highest levels); and she takes extra math classes at a local outfit called the russian math school. by the time junior year rolls around if she continues on this path she will be more than adequately prepared for calc bc. ap chem also she can handle quite well with my backing and based on what she already knows. these two i am very comfortable with. it's all the rest of the stuff that i find a little jaw dropping.

by Guest Sun Mar 03, 2013 2:01 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:i am comfortable with going directly to calc bc (because she has been in the topmost math class in middle school and now freshman year all along and has consistently performed at the highest levels); and she takes extra math classes at a local outfit called the russian math school. by the time junior year rolls around if she continues on this path she will be more than adequately prepared for calc bc. ap chem also she can handle quite well with my backing and based on what she already knows. these two i am very comfortable with. it's all the rest of the stuff that i find a little jaw dropping.

Awesome at her math and chem. Very important subjects! AP biology is easy. She should be able to manage fine. yeah, Physics is tough, but you should be able to help her out. That's a huge advantage for her.

Over here, after the kid finishes calc bc, he/she can proceed to do advanced calculus courses from Georgia Tech. The actual classroom lectures at GT are aired to the high school classrooms, real time. So the students can sit in comfort of their HS classrooms, watch the videos of the lectures and finish the adv calculus courses from georgia tech. Sonny didn't chart his math courses well over the high school yrs (he shld've finished some of the math courses during summer instead of wasting his school years doing them) and couldn't avail of that opportunity. Too bad!
If such a thing is available in your area from MIT or such colleges, have your daughter take advantage of that. That's a huge plus in college applications.

by MaxEntropy_Man Sun Mar 03, 2013 2:13 pm

yes there are courses like that and we are looking into it. i looked at the physics syllabus on the college board website and it's nothing i can't handle teaching her, but they haven't done as much formal physics at this point in school as bio, chem, and math. so it will be tougher than the other two. still she has my support.

your school counselor's advice is what we've been trying to impart. focus on core math and science (these are essential to her probable career path) and languages. outside of this maybe one solid AP course - american history or economics is sufficient. whatever she does, we want her to do well. but we also don't want to hover over her and dictate what she should do. in the long run, she'll be better off if she can think through these things herself with gentle backing from us.

by rawemotions Sun Mar 03, 2013 2:45 pm

nenu wrote:His weighted score is 93.4%. It could've been much higher had he loosened up his curriculum. GPA matters a lot in college admissions.

Edit PS: Apart from that, he has a lot of extra curricular activities too which keep him busy all the time.

Hi, Can you share how the grades are used in computing weighted average and if anything else is used. I presume this is different for each school ?

by Guest Sun Mar 03, 2013 3:16 pm

rawemotions wrote:
nenu wrote:His weighted score is 93.4%. It could've been much higher had he loosened up his curriculum. GPA matters a lot in college admissions.

Edit PS: Apart from that, he has a lot of extra curricular activities too which keep him busy all the time.
Hi, Can you share how the grades are used in computing weighted average and if anything else is used. I presume this is different for each school ?

It is different for each school. Some school consider the weighted average as is, without taking out any points. The school that sonny is interested in attending, they take out the weighted points (which is 7 in his case for all honors and AP classes), convert the percentage into a 4.0 gpa scale and add 0.5 points to all AP courses only. No points are added to honors courses.

For example, if the kid scored 95% in a course, they throw away 7 points from that. So, it would be 95-7=88. I think 88 converts to 3.5 on a 4.0 scale. If it's an AP course, they add 0.5 to it, which would be 4.0 (3.5+.5). If it's an honors course, it would be just 3.5.

edit: ps: 'school' above refers to colleges, not high school.

by MaxEntropy_Man Sun Mar 03, 2013 3:18 pm

in our kid's school they add 0.5 credits for honors courses and 1 credit for AP courses. that's what they've told us.

by Guest Sun Mar 03, 2013 3:24 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:in our kid's school they add 0.5 credits for honors courses and 1 credit for AP courses. that's what they've told us.

ya max, while applying to colleges, the colleges throw away all those extra points, make it unweighted and add their own points to it according to their college rules.

by MaxEntropy_Man Sun Mar 03, 2013 3:26 pm

nenu wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:in our kid's school they add 0.5 credits for honors courses and 1 credit for AP courses. that's what they've told us.

ya max, while applying to colleges, the colleges throw away all those extra points, make it unweighted and add their own points to it according to their college rules.

fair enough.

by rawemotions Sun Mar 03, 2013 3:39 pm

nenu wrote:
rawemotions wrote:
nenu wrote:His weighted score is 93.4%. It could've been much higher had he loosened up his curriculum. GPA matters a lot in college admissions.

Edit PS: Apart from that, he has a lot of extra curricular activities too which keep him busy all the time.
Hi, Can you share how the grades are used in computing weighted average and if anything else is used. I presume this is different for each school ?

It is different for each school. Some school consider the weighted average as is, without taking out any points. The school that sonny is interested in attending, they take out the weighted points (which is 7 in his case for all honors and AP classes), convert the percentage into a 4.0 gpa scale and add 0.5 points to all AP courses only. No points are added to honors courses.

For example, if the kid scored 95% in a course, they throw away 7 points from that. So, it would be 95-7=88. I think 88 converts to 3.5 on a 4.0 scale. If it's an AP course, they add 0.5 to it, which would be 4.0 (3.5+.5). If it's an honors course, it would be just 3.5.

edit: ps: 'school' above refers to colleges, not high school.

Thanks! I am kind of surprised that they take individual marks for each courses rather than grades. The Grading system I see here
is anyone who gets 94 and above is A, 90 to 94, A-, 85 to 90- B and so on..
If someone gets 93.5 average over a term, and someone gets 91, both get an A-, and you will never know their individual marks.

So I am surprised that in HS, they actually use marks for the pre-weighted score OR may be I am missing something here and it is still grades translates to Marks in % ? Kindly clarify ?

by rawemotions Sun Mar 03, 2013 3:46 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:i am comfortable with going directly to calc bc (because she has been in the topmost math class in middle school and now freshman year all along and has consistently performed at the highest levels); and she takes extra math classes at a local outfit called the russian math school. by the time junior year rolls around if she continues on this path she will be more than adequately prepared for calc bc. ap chem also she can handle quite well with my backing and based on what she already knows. these two i am very comfortable with. it's all the rest of the stuff that i find a little jaw dropping.

>> Since this topic has come up, I would like to know the best recommended books to teach students (Freshman HS) about the need for calculus ? Conceptually we can explain, about changing slopes etc.., but a well rounded book that covers functions, limits and modeling changing slopes applied to many practical situations would serve as a good motivation. I am also looking for Physics.
Resnick and Halliday does not seem to introduce concepts in Layman fashion.
Feynmans books in library that I have seen, are good for each individual topic, but I do not see a course sort of treatment where each topic is treated in a logical succession (mechanics(work, pressure, level, pulleys and so on..) OR may be I do not know the right Feynman's book. In this respect, I found Asimov's foundations of Physics Nice. Any other suggestions ?

Thanks

by Jeremiah Mburuburu Sun Mar 03, 2013 3:49 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:to cram physics, chem, and bio into one year and one AP course each in high school. i really think this is a disservice to students. the alternative model of chopping it up and doing all three subjects all four years is a much better idea, but we have no choice. sucks.

true. however, i wd prefer to see a course in physics that includes basic calculus and vector analysis offered in the 9th grade, as a prerequisite to full courses in chemistry or biology.

a public school system in illinois - i don't know which one - has tried that, under the leadership of leon lederman, the experimental physicist, nobel laureate, and former head of fermilab. i don't know what the results were.

it's also time educationists tried integrating physics and chemistry, at least to some extent, in high school. it's the same bloody fundamental particles and forces that underly all phenomena, whether one classifies them as physical, chemical, or biological!

by Guest Sun Mar 03, 2013 4:10 pm

rawemotions wrote:
nenu wrote:
rawemotions wrote:
nenu wrote:His weighted score is 93.4%. It could've been much higher had he loosened up his curriculum. GPA matters a lot in college admissions.

Edit PS: Apart from that, he has a lot of extra curricular activities too which keep him busy all the time.
Hi, Can you share how the grades are used in computing weighted average and if anything else is used. I presume this is different for each school ?

It is different for each school. Some school consider the weighted average as is, without taking out any points. The school that sonny is interested in attending, they take out the weighted points (which is 7 in his case for all honors and AP classes), convert the percentage into a 4.0 gpa scale and add 0.5 points to all AP courses only. No points are added to honors courses.

For example, if the kid scored 95% in a course, they throw away 7 points from that. So, it would be 95-7=88. I think 88 converts to 3.5 on a 4.0 scale. If it's an AP course, they add 0.5 to it, which would be 4.0 (3.5+.5). If it's an honors course, it would be just 3.5.

edit: ps: 'school' above refers to colleges, not high school.

Thanks! I am kind of surprised that they take individual marks for each courses rather than grades. The Grading system I see here
is anyone who gets 94 and above is A, 90 to 94, A-, 85 to 90- B and so on..
If someone gets 93.5 average over a term, and someone gets 91, both get an A-, and you will never know their individual marks.

So I am surprised that in HS, they actually use marks for the pre-weighted score OR may be I am missing something here and it is still grades translates to Marks in % ? Kindly clarify ?

Each high school uses a different grading scale, which is so annoying. In the case of my son's HS, they use percentage marks. For each honors or AP subject, they add 7 marks to the final score.

The conversion to the alphabet grading is given at the end of his transcript (if anyone wishes to convert the percentages to alphabet scores). According to it, 90 and above =A, 80-89=B, 70-79 = C, 69 and below = F. there is no A- or B-. The range seems so broad.
The kid who scored an 80 is a B and the kid who scored an 89 is also a B. but the one who scored 90 is an A. Doesn't seem fair at all.

Max's daughter's school seems to be using the 4.0 system of grading scale.

by rawemotions Sun Mar 03, 2013 4:16 pm

Thanks!

This is probably hypothetical but if a kid's original score was 97 in an AP /Honours course, is he/she given 104 ?

by Guest Sun Mar 03, 2013 4:18 pm

rawemotions wrote:Thanks!

This is probably hypothetical but if a kid's original score was 97 in a AP /Honours course. Is he/she given 104 ?

yes. My kid did score over 100 in some subjects.

edited: even on a 4.0 scale, we do hear kids scoring a grade of 4.2 and all. It is those extra points from AP/honors courses.

well, even in a college conversion, the kid can score upto 4.5. If the unweighted score for an AP course is 4.0 and when they add a 0.5 to it, it become 4.5

by rawemotions Sun Mar 03, 2013 4:21 pm

Is the conversion to CGPA done on pre-weighted scores or after the AP adjustment ?

Was wondering whether A translates to 90 - 107 ?

by Guest Sun Mar 03, 2013 4:27 pm

rawemotions wrote:Is the conversion to CGPA done on pre-weighted scores or after the AP adjustment ?

Was wondering whether A translates to 90 - 107 ?

The alphabet scoring is a bit shady. If they use the alphabet scoring at your kid's school, do they add the extra points for AP courses? If they do, how do they do it?

by rawemotions Sun Mar 03, 2013 5:01 pm

This is MS grading. I need to ask about HS.

by MaxEntropy_Man Sun Mar 03, 2013 5:16 pm

rawemotions wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:i am comfortable with going directly to calc bc (because she has been in the topmost math class in middle school and now freshman year all along and has consistently performed at the highest levels); and she takes extra math classes at a local outfit called the russian math school. by the time junior year rolls around if she continues on this path she will be more than adequately prepared for calc bc. ap chem also she can handle quite well with my backing and based on what she already knows. these two i am very comfortable with. it's all the rest of the stuff that i find a little jaw dropping.

>> Since this topic has come up, I would like to know the best recommended books to teach students (Freshman HS) about the need for calculus ? Conceptually we can explain, about changing slopes etc.., but a well rounded book that covers functions, limits and modeling changing slopes applied to many practical situations would serve as a good motivation. I am also looking for Physics.
Resnick and Halliday does not seem to introduce concepts in Layman fashion.
Feynmans books in library that I have seen, are good for each individual topic, but I do not see a course sort of treatment where each topic is treated in a logical succession (mechanics(work, pressure, level, pulleys and so on..) OR may be I do not know the right Feynman's book. In this respect, I found Asimov's foundations of Physics Nice. Any other suggestions ?

Thanks

here is an old calculus book that i wish i had come across when i was a kid:

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/33283/33283-pdf.pdf

it is also available in print with some politically correct changes like boys changed to children etc.

feynman's book are for reading after one has mastered a bit of physics. i don't think they are good textbooks. the best physics text books are probably the berkeley physics series if you don't like halliday and resnick.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berkeley_Physics_Course

by MaxEntropy_Man Sun Mar 03, 2013 6:22 pm

Jeremiah Mburuburu wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:to cram physics, chem, and bio into one year and one AP course each in high school. i really think this is a disservice to students. the alternative model of chopping it up and doing all three subjects all four years is a much better idea, but we have no choice. sucks.
true. however, i wd prefer to see a course in physics that includes basic calculus and vector analysis offered in the 9th grade, as a prerequisite to full courses in chemistry or biology.

a public school system in illinois - i don't know which one - has tried that, under the leadership of leon lederman, the experimental physicist, nobel laureate, and former head of fermilab. i don't know what the results were.

it's also time educationists tried integrating physics and chemistry, at least to some extent, in high school. it's the same bloody fundamental particles and forces that underly all phenomena, whether one classifies them as physical, chemical, or biological!

this is very true. i think the idea of teaching physics and chemistry separately will disappear after a while. the thing about a calculus based physics course earlier is that kids haven't seen calculus in 9th grade.

by Uppili Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:34 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:to cram physics, chem, and bio into one year and one AP course each in high school. i really think this is a disservice to students. the alternative model of chopping it up and doing all three subjects all four years is a much better idea, but we have no choice. sucks.

Proves that Kansas has a superior primary education system.

by Uppili Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:40 pm

nenu wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:in our kid's school they add 0.5 credits for honors courses and 1 credit for AP courses. that's what they've told us.

ya max, while applying to colleges, the colleges throw away all those extra points, make it unweighted and add their own points to it according to their college rules.

You guys really do all these stuff...and scrutinize your kids?....daym.

by Jeremiah Mburuburu Mon Mar 04, 2013 1:00 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:the thing about a calculus based physics course earlier is that kids haven't seen calculus in 9th grade.

i was suggesting a 9th-grade physics course in which the calculus and vector analysis needed would be taught as part of that physics course, not as a separate, earlier math course.

it's a bit like the genetics and biochemistry that may be needed in modern medicine being taught at medical school, possibly by professors of medicine; and also like basic statistics and the special methods of statistics needed in economics - econometrics - being taught by departments of economics.

the administrations and educators of the average school and school system are highly resistant to this kind of change.

by Petrichor Mon Mar 04, 2013 2:00 pm

One could sequence Math courses in such a way that you can complete the calculus or pre-calculus portions before taking up a year of physics.

by garam_kuta Mon Mar 04, 2013 2:15 pm

Muezzin-Bar'chu wrote:One could sequence Math courses in such a way that you can complete the calculus or pre-calculus portions before taking up a year of physics.

aside: please tell me, is your new handle a hyphenated oxymoron and/or indulging in middle-eastern blots, like the southern /northern ones?

by Petrichor Mon Mar 04, 2013 2:18 pm

I meant it as a hyphenated oxymoron ...thanks for asking. Somewhere there, I also intended for deep divisions that make a lot of sense, to come through. Wink

by garam_kuta Mon Mar 04, 2013 2:25 pm

Muezzin-Bar'chu wrote:I meant it as a hyphenated oxymoron ...thanks for asking. Somewhere there, I also intended for deep divisions that make a lot of sense, to come through.

if attempting a middle-eastern blot, like the northerns, good luck with hybridization !

by Petrichor Mon Mar 04, 2013 2:32 pm

I stopped bio-chemistry in 10th grade - I have no knowledge of protein folds, lipids or any PTM analysis. If a 1000-page novel set out to use biochemical metaphors for the state of Israeli-Arab politics or for that matter, differences between mango puliseri versus puliyogare, it will have to be limited edition for connoisseurs only.

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Mon Mar 04, 2013 2:36 pm

Jeremiah Mburuburu wrote:i was suggesting a 9th-grade physics course in which the calculus and vector analysis needed would be taught as part of that physics course, not as a separate, earlier math course.

it's a bit like the genetics and biochemistry that may be needed in modern medicine being taught at medical school, possibly by professors of medicine; and also like basic statistics and the special methods of statistics needed in economics - econometrics - being taught by departments of economics.

the administrations and educators of the average school and school system are highly resistant to this kind of change.

1. How would you use vectors and calculus in 9th grade physics? Pliss to explain. They should have COMPLETED calculus in grade 8 for that. Vectors?....really.... yeah rite...try that in second year college.

2. Admins oppose that for a reason. Bcz what you guys are suggesting is for the few elite top-notch students, who can pick up whatever you throw at them. But, 98% of the high schoolers in 98% of the schools in 98% of the geographical area they hatefully want to get through grade 12 with basic algebra and trig - forget calculus.

Without buying into the 98% not much is likely to change. I was listening to a program on NPR. many Ivy leagues are moving towards NOT givinig credit for AP or IB courses. And more schools are going towards that or raising the bar to a grade of 4 or 5 in AP courses. AP courses are still good for motivated students as they will prepare them better for college - if nothing else.

Kinny' advisor at the "dream school" was a BS. The advisor is totally wrong.

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Mar 04, 2013 2:54 pm

Jeremiah Mburuburu wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:the thing about a calculus based physics course earlier is that kids haven't seen calculus in 9th grade.
i was suggesting a 9th-grade physics course in which the calculus and vector analysis needed would be taught as part of that physics course, not as a separate, earlier math course.

it's a bit like the genetics and biochemistry that may be needed in modern medicine being taught at medical school, possibly by professors of medicine; and also like basic statistics and the special methods of statistics needed in economics - econometrics - being taught by departments of economics.

the administrations and educators of the average school and school system are highly resistant to this kind of change.

this is a good idea, but that means teaching a lot more algebra/trig/coordinate geom a lot earlier. as uppili suggested some students may respond to that, but many will have trouble. ideally a curriculum customized to a student's aptitude and ability is probably the best solution. in particular, students with well above average (but not necessarily genius level) math skills can benefit from that; but this will be too expensive to implement. my kid's school is attempting something like this but at a more modest level. one of the outcomes is that my kid's class (but not the entire school) will be going straight to AP calc bc and physics c without bothering with the calc ab and physics b versions.

but i am fully supportive of the idea of calc and vectors as part of an integrated curriculum which teaches physics (and possibly chem), and introduces calc and vectors as tools to be learned. this is a powerful way to teach.

by Jeremiah Mburuburu Mon Mar 04, 2013 3:28 pm

Muezzin-Bar'chu wrote:One could sequence Math courses in such a way that you can complete the calculus or pre-calculus portions before taking up a year of physics.

the usual sequence in u.s. high schools for the just-above-average but competent and ambitious student is: algebra I, geometry, algebra II, pre-calc, and calculus. the well-above-average and ambitious student may have completed algebra I and geometry before his/her 9th grade through honors courses in middle school or courses middle-schoolers are allowed to take at high school.

i am not advocating an entire array of math courses before taking physics in the 9th grade, only the calculus and vector analysis needed in physics, supported by the student's prior knowledge of algebra and geometry.

it is, in practice, difficult to sequence and coordinate math courses so that the student is competent enough to take a calculus- and vector-based physics course in the 9th grade. one reason is that math departments teach year-long courses, one each in pre-calc and calculus. a year-long course is unnecessary to gain the knowledge of calculus and vector anlaysis needed for a 9th-grade course in physics that's strong in the fundamentals.

at the same time, the math community has lofty objectives - i am glad that they do - beyond fulfilling the math needs of physics, and they ought to be fulfilled. the best calculus courses available in u.s. schools are the two ap (advanced placement) courses: ap calculus ab, and ap calculus bc, both of which are year-long courses designed by the college board, the same org that administers the s.a.t. and possibly the g.r.e. importantly, the college board

these year-long, college-level courses, are well-developed and valuable, and strong in the fundamentals (esp ap calc ab); every capable student should take ap calc ab - it's part of being educated - but not all of it is needed for a 9th-grade course in physics.

thus, insistence on a comprehensive course in calculus can delay the study of physics. that's why i suggested that the calculus and vector analysis need for the 9th-grade physics course be taught as part of the same physics course.

there's much more to be said about the teaching of physics, esp about the use of math in physics, but this post must end now.

by Jeremiah Mburuburu Mon Mar 04, 2013 4:11 pm

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:
Jeremiah Mburuburu wrote:i was suggesting a 9th-grade physics course in which the calculus and vector analysis needed would be taught as part of that physics course, not as a separate, earlier math course.

it's a bit like the genetics and biochemistry that may be needed in modern medicine being taught at medical school, possibly by professors of medicine; and also like basic statistics and the special methods of statistics needed in economics - econometrics - being taught by departments of economics.

the administrations and educators of the average school and school system are highly resistant to this kind of change.

1. How would you use vectors and calculus in 9th grade physics? Pliss to explain. They should have COMPLETED calculus in grade 8 for that. Vectors?....really.... yeah rite...try that in second year college.

2. Admins oppose that for a reason. Bcz what you guys are suggesting is for the few elite top-notch students, who can pick up whatever you throw at them. But, 98% of the high schoolers in 98% of the schools in 98% of the geographical area they hatefully want to get through grade 12 with basic algebra and trig - forget calculus.

Without buying into the 98% not much is likely to change. I was listening to a program on NPR. many Ivy leagues are moving towards NOT givinig credit for AP or IB courses. And more schools are going towards that or raising the bar to a grade of 4 or 5 in AP courses. AP courses are still good for motivated students as they will prepare them better for college - if nothing else.

Kinny' advisor at the "dream school" was a BS. The advisor is totally wrong.

********

Saamiyaar wrote:How would you use vectors and calculus in 9th grade physics? Pliss to explain.

i would not be pleased to explain; you and i have quite different notions about vectors and calculus, and their connections with physics; i am not keen to change yours.

Saamiyaar wrote:I was listening to a program on NPR. many Ivy leagues are moving towards NOT givinig credit for AP or IB courses. And more schools are going towards that or raising the bar to a grade of 4 or 5 in AP courses. AP courses are still good for motivated students as they will prepare them better for college - if nothing else.

my post is about acquiring knowledge of the sciences, not about grades or getting college credit for courses taken at school.

Saamiyaar wrote:98% of the high schoolers in 98% of the schools in 98% of the geographical area they hatefully want to get through grade 12 with basic algebra and trig - forget calculus.

if i were a dedicated educator, i would aspire to change the 98% to 75% or even 50%, or i would appoint school superintendents and principals who aspire to do so.

by Jeremiah Mburuburu Mon Mar 04, 2013 4:58 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:my kid's class (but not the entire school) will be going straight to AP calc bc and physics c without bothering with the calc ab and physics b versions.

i think that ap calc ab is a splendid course, strong in the fundamentals and applications; fun, and able to satisfy curiosity. i can't say the same about ap calc bc. i might want to take bc if i planned to enroll in a school of engineering the next year; it's much more "technical," and (a bit too) fast-paced.

if i remember correctly, d took ab in her 9th or 10th grade, finished the course by the middle of the year (by working with the teacher to accelerate the pace), then did bc by herself, using a textbook, and getting assignments, quizzes, tests, and guidance on the syllabus from the person teaching the bc course. at the end of the year, she took both ap exams.

one of d's college admission essays was about learning mathematics with me, all the way from childhood. (i never suggested that she write such an essay.) needless to say, i loved it.

the mentor of any middle-school student today who wants to guide his/her child through math and the sciences should take into account the hand-held, graphing calculators available today for $100 to $160 or so. the ti-89 and ti's more recent nspire (yes, that's the spelling) can instantly determine integrals in symbolic form. the ti-84, which is about fifteen years old, has always been able to determine definite integrals numerically with great accuracy.

this changes the math education game entirely, increasing the importance of conceptual understanding, modeling and interpretation of results, and decreasing that of computation and even symbolic manipulation.

by Guest Mon Mar 04, 2013 7:11 pm

Jeremiah Mburuburu wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:my kid's class (but not the entire school) will be going straight to AP calc bc and physics c without bothering with the calc ab and physics b versions.
i think that ap calc ab is a splendid course, strong in the fundamentals and applications; fun, and able to satisfy curiosity. i can't say the same about ap calc bc. i might want to take bc if i planned to enroll in a school of engineering the next year; it's much more "technical," and (a bit too) fast-paced.

if i remember correctly, d took ab in her 9th or 10th grade, finished the course by the middle of the year (by working with the teacher to accelerate the pace), then did bc by herself, using a textbook, and getting assignments, quizzes, tests, and guidance on the syllabus from the person teaching the bc course. at the end of the year, she took both ap exams.

Calculus BC covers the entire Calculus AB in the first semester and proceeds to more stuff in the second semester. Basically, what they do in calc ab in two semesters is completed in one semester in bc.

What did d do after she completed calc bc in the middle of the 10th grade in HS? What math courses did she do in 11th and 12th grade?

by bw Mon Mar 04, 2013 7:35 pm

nenu wrote:
Jeremiah Mburuburu wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:my kid's class (but not the entire school) will be going straight to AP calc bc and physics c without bothering with the calc ab and physics b versions.
i think that ap calc ab is a splendid course, strong in the fundamentals and applications; fun, and able to satisfy curiosity. i can't say the same about ap calc bc. i might want to take bc if i planned to enroll in a school of engineering the next year; it's much more "technical," and (a bit too) fast-paced.

if i remember correctly, d took ab in her 9th or 10th grade, finished the course by the middle of the year (by working with the teacher to accelerate the pace), then did bc by herself, using a textbook, and getting assignments, quizzes, tests, and guidance on the syllabus from the person teaching the bc course. at the end of the year, she took both ap exams.

Calculus BC covers the entire Calculus AB in the first semester and proceeds to more stuff in the second semester. Basically, what they do in calc ab in two semesters is completed in one semester in bc.

What did d do after she completed calc bc in the middle of the 10th grade in HS? What math courses did she do in 11th and 12th grade?

the whole college admission business seems very complicated. scary!

by Guest Mon Mar 04, 2013 7:37 pm

bw wrote:
nenu wrote:
Jeremiah Mburuburu wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:my kid's class (but not the entire school) will be going straight to AP calc bc and physics c without bothering with the calc ab and physics b versions.
i think that ap calc ab is a splendid course, strong in the fundamentals and applications; fun, and able to satisfy curiosity. i can't say the same about ap calc bc. i might want to take bc if i planned to enroll in a school of engineering the next year; it's much more "technical," and (a bit too) fast-paced.

if i remember correctly, d took ab in her 9th or 10th grade, finished the course by the middle of the year (by working with the teacher to accelerate the pace), then did bc by herself, using a textbook, and getting assignments, quizzes, tests, and guidance on the syllabus from the person teaching the bc course. at the end of the year, she took both ap exams.

Calculus BC covers the entire Calculus AB in the first semester and proceeds to more stuff in the second semester. Basically, what they do in calc ab in two semesters is completed in one semester in bc.

What did d do after she completed calc bc in the middle of the 10th grade in HS? What math courses did she do in 11th and 12th grade?

the whole college admission business seems very complicated. scary!

Yeah, I'm in the middle of it now. Sigh!

by bw Mon Mar 04, 2013 7:47 pm

nenu wrote:
bw wrote:

the whole college admission business seems very complicated. scary!

Yeah, I'm in the middle of it now. Sigh!

all the best to you and your son!

by Guest Mon Mar 04, 2013 7:49 pm

bw wrote:
nenu wrote:
bw wrote:

the whole college admission business seems very complicated. scary!

Yeah, I'm in the middle of it now. Sigh!

all the best to you and your son!

Thanks, bw.

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Mar 04, 2013 7:53 pm

Jeremiah Mburuburu wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:my kid's class (but not the entire school) will be going straight to AP calc bc and physics c without bothering with the calc ab and physics b versions.
i think that ap calc ab is a splendid course, strong in the fundamentals and applications; fun, and able to satisfy curiosity. i can't say the same about ap calc bc. i might want to take bc if i planned to enroll in a school of engineering the next year; it's much more "technical," and (a bit too) fast-paced.

if i remember correctly, d took ab in her 9th or 10th grade, finished the course by the middle of the year (by working with the teacher to accelerate the pace), then did bc by herself, using a textbook, and getting assignments, quizzes, tests, and guidance on the syllabus from the person teaching the bc course. at the end of the year, she took both ap exams.

one of d's college admission essays was about learning mathematics with me, all the way from childhood. (i never suggested that she write such an essay.) needless to say, i loved it.

the mentor of any middle-school student today who wants to guide his/her child through math and the sciences should take into account the hand-held, graphing calculators available today for $100 to $160 or so. the ti-89 and ti's more recent nspire (yes, that's the spelling) can instantly determine integrals in symbolic form. the ti-84, which is about fifteen years old, has always been able to determine definite integrals numerically with great accuracy.

this changes the math education game entirely, increasing the importance of conceptual understanding, modeling and interpretation of results, and decreasing that of computation and even symbolic manipulation.

this is excellent insight and advice on the difference between calculus ab and bc. i have sent my kid's math teacher a note about it. she is a russian woman, a highly respected teacher at her school, and someone with whom i have great personal rapport. i am sure she'll get back with a thoughtful answer. whatever she says, i'll post it here so others can benefit as well.

by Guest Mon Mar 04, 2013 8:39 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:my kid's class (but not the entire school) will be going straight to AP calc bc and physics c without bothering with the calc ab and physics b versions.

Max, over here in my kid's school, AP calc ab is NOT a prerequisite for AP calc bc. The prerequisites for both of them is honors pre-calc, but the kid got to have an A grade in it in order to take bc. BC covers the topics of ab in the first semester and also cover additional topics in the second. That's the only difference. The additional topics include: vector functions, parametric equations, conversions, parametrically defined curves, tangent lines, sequences and series, integration techniques, and calculus of polar equations.

so if a kid does ab and then proceeds to do bc, he/she would be repeating the same stuff in the first semester of bc.

Again over here, the prerequisites for ap physics C is not necessarily ap physics b. The prerequisites are biology, chemistry and physics. Yes, the kid should've done all the three subjects before taking ap physics c. calculus is also a must, even if taken concurrently. it is recommended that the student takes ap physics b instead of the regular physics, but it is not essential.

by Petrichor Mon Mar 04, 2013 9:17 pm

Nenu...how many AP's are considered average and normal in your school?

And yes BC calc does not have Ab calc as a prerequisite..in fact the bc calc score from collegeboard comes built-in with a subscore for the ab section.

by Guest Mon Mar 04, 2013 9:24 pm

this thread makes me nervous overall.

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