The logical case against caste based reservations

by Guest Mon Apr 15, 2013 8:12 am

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/4826/1067/1600/CBB_reservations.jpg

by Guest Mon Apr 15, 2013 8:13 am

The following is the text of a letter Pandit Nehru wrote to chief ministers on June 27, 1961, emphasising on the need for empowering backward groups by giving them access to good and technical education, and not by reserving jobs based on caste and creed:

"I have referred above to efficiency and to our getting out of our traditional ruts. This necessitates our getting out of the old habit of reservations and particular privileges being given to this caste or that group. The recent meeting we held here, at which the chief ministers were present, to consider national integration, laid down that help should be given on economic considerations and not on caste.

It is true that we are tied up with certain rules and conventions about helping Scheduled Castes and Tribes. They deserve help but, even so, I dislike any kind of reservation, more particularly in service. I react strongly against anything which leads to inefficiency and second-rate standards. I want my country to be a first class country in everything. The moment we encourage the second-rate, we are lost.

The only real way to help a backward group is to give opportunities for good education. This includes technical education, which is becoming more and more important. Everything else is provision of some kind of crutches which do not add to the strength or health of the body.

We have made recently two decisions which are very important: One is, universal free elementary education, that is the base; and the second is scholarships on a very wide scale at every grade of education to bright boys and girls, and this applies not merely to literary education, but, much more so, to technical, scientific and medical training. I lay stress on bright and able boys and girls. I have no doubt that there is a vast reservoir of potential talent in this country if only we can give it opportunity.

But if we go in for reservations on communal and caste basis, we swamp the bright and able people and remain second-rate or third-rate. I am grieved to learn of how far this business of reservation has gone based on communal consideration.

It has amazed me to learn that even promotions are based sometimes on communal and caste considerations. This way lies not only folly, but disaster. Let's help the backward groups by all means, but never at the cost of efficiency. How are we going to build our public sector or indeed any sector with second-rate people?

(Jawaharlal Nehru, Letters to chief ministers 1947-1964, Volume 5, Oxford University Press, 1989, PP 456-7)

http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2008-04-11/news/27699322_1_reservation-caste-education

by Guest Mon Apr 15, 2013 8:17 am

Youth for Equality is an activist group opposed to caste based reservations, particularly caste based reservations for OBCs. The following is an interesting article from their site:

http://www.youthforequality.com/our-agenda/why-against-caste-based-reservation.aspx

Some interesting quotes from the article:

In the words of Pandit Nehru :

"……I don't particularly like the words "backward classes of citizens" and I hope the select committee will find some better wording. What I mean is this; it is the backward individual citizen that we should help. Why should we brand groups and classes as backward and forward……"

----
Prime Minister of India Pandit Jawahar Lal Nehru in his letter dated 27th June, 1961 wrote:-
"I have referred above to efficiency and to our getting out of our traditional roots. This necessitates our getting out of the old habit of reservations and particular privileges being given to this caste or that group. The recent meeting we held here, at which the Chief Ministers were present, to consider national integration, laid down that help should be given on economic considerations and not on caste. It is true that we are tied up with certain rules and conventions about helping the scheduled castes and tribes. They deserve help but, even so I dislike any kind of reservation, more particularly in Services. I react strongly against anything which leads to inefficiency and second-rate standards. I want my country to be a first class country in everything. The moment we encourage the second-rate, we are lost.

The only real way to help a backward group is to give opportunities of good education, this includes technical education which is becoming more and more important. Everything else is provision of some kind of crutches which do not add to the strength or health of the body. We have made recently two decisions which are very important one is, universal free elementary education, that is the base; and the second is scholarships on a very wide scale at every grade of education to the bright boys and girls, and this applies not merely to literary education, but much more so, to technical, scientific and medical training. I lay stress on the bright and able boys and girls because it is only they who will raise our standards. I have no doubt that there is a vast reservoir of potential talent in this country if only we can give it opportunity.

But if we go in for reservations on communal and caste basis, we swamp the bright and able people and remain second-rate or third-rate. I am grieved to learn how for this business of reservations has gone based on communal considerations. It has amazed me to learn that even promotions are based sometimes on communal or caste considerations. This way lies not only folly, but disaster. Let us help the backward groups by all means, but never at the cost of efficiency. How are we going to build the public sector or indeed any sector with second-rate people?"

---

Shri Govind Ballabh Pant, the then Home Minister stated:

"………the emphasis on caste has further been highlighted by some of the minutes of dissent. The tone and temper displayed therein bring into prominence the dangers and of separatism inherent in this kind of approach. It cannot be denied that the caste system is the greatest hindrance in the way of our progress towards an egalitarian society, and the recognition of specified castes as backward may serve to maintain and even perpetuate the existing distinctions of caste. There may be, besides castes, a large number of whose members may be classified as backward educationally and economically, but still there may be others among them who cannot be so classified. Similarly, among the so called upper and advanced classes there may be, and in fact there are, large number of those who are not less backward educationally and economically and even among the backward classes some castes are more backward than the others………"

-----
The Chairman of First Backward Class Commission, Kaka Kalelkar, pleaded that the reservations and other remedies recommended on the basis of caste would not be in the interest of society and country. He opined that the principle of caste should be eschewed altogether. Then alone, he said, would it be possible to help the extremely poor and deserving members of all the communities. He wrote:

122. Towards the end of our enquiry, we have come to the conclusion that caste, communal or denominational considerations need not be introduced in the educational policy. A progressive, modern welfare State, cannot afford to tolerate educational backwardness anywhere in the State. In most of the modern States more than 60 per cent of the scholars receive full educational aid. In India, it should be possible for the State to give educational aid to all the poor and deserving students in the country, irrespective of caste, sex or denomination. Whenever it is necessary to show preference it must be for women and for students of rural areas. The present preference for Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes should be continued for some time, but the time has come when all the poor and deserving should, and could, be helped, so that no communal consideration need be introduced in the field of education.

-----
"Sir, do we still have that goal of a castiest society ………
The speech of the former Prime Minister and the leader of Opposition Shri Rajiv Gandhi in the Parliament criticizing the Mandal report, its recommendations and the resolve of the V.P. Singh government to implement the same, truly reflects the aspiration of modern India. He spoke:

"Sir, do we still have that goal of a castiest society ………if you believe in a casteless society, every major step you take, must be such that you move towards casteless society and you must avoid taking any step which takes you towards a caste-ridden society. Unfortunately the step that we are taking today, the manner in which it has been put, is a castiest formula. While accepting that caste is a reality, we must dilute that formula by adding something onto it. so that at least we start inching away from it……"

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Apr 15, 2013 8:27 am

these are all someone else's opinions. what is yours?

by Guest Mon Apr 15, 2013 8:32 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:these are all someone else's opinions. what is yours?

I support and endorse the views of Pandit Nehru and the others I have quoted.

by Guest Mon Apr 15, 2013 8:36 am

http://latasinha.wordpress.com/2012/02/09/pt-jawahar-lal-nehru-and-reservations-in-government-jobs/

by Seva Lamberdar Mon Apr 15, 2013 8:41 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:these are all someone else's opinions. what is yours?

All these letters etc. (indicating the leaders originally against caste quotas) seem to be later addition to make the original politicians look sensible and good.

It's like Guha implying now in history book, wrongly of course, that the lack of UCC in India might be due to RSS and Prasad originally because they had objected to changes only in the Hindu law (while the laws for other communities were left untouched without similar changes in them).

If Nehru had reservations about the caste quotas, why didn't he take steps to stop them and publicly campaigned against them?

by Guest Mon Apr 15, 2013 8:48 am

Seva Lamberdar wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:these are all someone else's opinions. what is yours?

All these letters etc. (indicating the leaders originally against caste quotas) seem to be later addition to make the original politicians look sensible and good.

It's like Guha implying now in history book, wrongly of course, that the lack of UCC in India might be due to RSS and Prasad originally because they had objected to changes only in the Hindu law (while the laws for other communities were left untouched without similar changes in them).

If Nehru had reservations about the caste quotas, why didn't he take steps to stop them and publicly campaigned against them?

The idea was that they would be around for SC/ST's for ten years and then cease. Nehru had expressed his views on this issue in a letter he had written all the chief ministers of India. There is zero chance of this being a forgery.

by Guest Mon Apr 15, 2013 8:49 am

Seva read this if you are not convinced still:

(Jawaharlal Nehru, Letters to chief ministers 1947-1964, Volume 5, Oxford University Press, 1989, PP 456-7)

by Seva Lamberdar Mon Apr 15, 2013 8:52 am

Instead of supposedly writing letters to family and party members about his reservations on caste based reservations, he should have spoken publicly and campaigned against them, which he did not do.

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Apr 15, 2013 8:54 am

rashmun - wish you had some gumption of your own instead of relying on others' reasoning. time to grow up and become an adult.

by garam_kuta Mon Apr 15, 2013 8:57 am

Rashmun wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:these are all someone else's opinions. what is yours?

All these letters etc. (indicating the leaders originally against caste quotas) seem to be later addition to make the original politicians look sensible and good.

It's like Guha implying now in history book, wrongly of course, that the lack of UCC in India might be due to RSS and Prasad originally because they had objected to changes only in the Hindu law (while the laws for other communities were left untouched without similar changes in them).

If Nehru had reservations about the caste quotas, why didn't he take steps to stop them and publicly campaigned against them?

The idea was that they would be around for SC/ST's for ten years and then cease. Nehru had expressed his views on this issue in a letter he had written all the chief ministers of India. There is zero chance of this being a forgery.

what are the chances of Nehru being called a wuzzy iyer-boy for this, by the resident randy savage?

by Guest Mon Apr 15, 2013 8:57 am

Seva Lamberdar wrote:Instead of supposedly writing letters to family and party members about his reservations on caste based reservations, he should have spoken publicly and campaigned against them, which he did not do.

He would surely have campaigned against caste based reservations publicly if he had known that it would continue on and on for decade after decade after independence. When he first agreed with the idea it was with the understanding that it would only be put in place for ten years and that too only for SC/STs. The idea that caste based reservations would also be given to OBC's who are a prosperous community generally--relatively speaking--did not exist in Nehru's time.

by garam_kuta Mon Apr 15, 2013 8:58 am

Seva Lamberdar wrote:Instead of supposedly writing letters to family and party members about his reservations on caste based reservations, he should have spoken publicly and campaigned against them, which he did not do.

what are the chances of Nehru being called a wuzzy iyer-boy for this, by our resident randy savage?

by Guest Mon Apr 15, 2013 9:01 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:rashmun - wish you had some gumption of your own instead of relying on others' reasoning. time to grow up and become an adult.

I am agreeing with and endorsing Nehru's views on this issue which I think is the correct view. I don't see what exactly is your problem with this approach.

by Seva Lamberdar Mon Apr 15, 2013 9:09 am

[quote="Rashmun"]

Seva Lamberdar wrote:Instead of supposedly writing letters to family and party members about his reservations on caste based reservations, he should have spoken publicly and campaigned against them, which he did not do.

He would surely have campaigned against caste based reservations publicly if he had known that it would continue on and on for decade after decade after independence. When he first agreed with the idea it was with the understanding that it would only be put in place for ten years and that too only for SC/STs. The idea that caste based reservations would also be given to OBC's who are a prosperous community generally--relatively speaking--did not exist in Nehru's time.[/quote]

Are you kidding?

There already were OBCs in my village, including farmers, carpenters, smiths etc., during 1950s (when Nehru was still alive and country's iIndependence was less than 10 yr. old) who were doing financially better than brahmins etc. and still qualified for Govt. quotas / benefits in education and jobs while the others (poorer brahmins etc.) did not.

by Seva Lamberdar Mon Apr 15, 2013 9:11 am

garam_kuta wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:Instead of supposedly writing letters to family and party members about his reservations on caste based reservations, he should have spoken publicly and campaigned against them, which he did not do.

what are the chances of Nehru being called a wuzzy iyer-boy for this, by our resident randy savage?

LOL. I have no clue about the chances part.

by Guest Mon Apr 15, 2013 9:20 am

[quote="Seva Lamberdar"]

Rashmun wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:Instead of supposedly writing letters to family and party members about his reservations on caste based reservations, he should have spoken publicly and campaigned against them, which he did not do.

He would surely have campaigned against caste based reservations publicly if he had known that it would continue on and on for decade after decade after independence. When he first agreed with the idea it was with the understanding that it would only be put in place for ten years and that too only for SC/STs. The idea that caste based reservations would also be given to OBC's who are a prosperous community generally--relatively speaking--did not exist in Nehru's time.[/quote]

Are you kidding?

There already were OBCs in my village, including farmers, carpenters, smiths etc., during 1950s (when Nehru was still alive and country's iIndependence was less than 10 yr. old) who were doing financially better than brahmins etc. and still qualified for Govt. quotas / benefits in education and jobs while the others (poorer brahmins etc.) did not.

Seva, reservations for OBC's did not exist in Nehru's time. They were only implemented after the Mandal commission report when VP Singh was PM.

by Seva Lamberdar Mon Apr 15, 2013 9:59 am

[quote="Rashmun"]

Seva Lamberdar wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:Instead of supposedly writing letters to family and party members about his reservations on caste based reservations, he should have spoken publicly and campaigned against them, which he did not do.

He would surely have campaigned against caste based reservations publicly if he had known that it would continue on and on for decade after decade after independence. When he first agreed with the idea it was with the understanding that it would only be put in place for ten years and that too only for SC/STs. The idea that caste based reservations would also be given to OBC's who are a prosperous community generally--relatively speaking--did not exist in Nehru's time.[/quote]

Are you kidding?

There already were OBCs in my village, including farmers, carpenters, smiths etc., during 1950s (when Nehru was still alive and country's iIndependence was less than 10 yr. old) who were doing financially better than brahmins etc. and still qualified for Govt. quotas / benefits in education and jobs while the others (poorer brahmins etc.) did not.

Seva, reservations for OBC's did not exist in Nehru's time. They were only implemented after the Mandal commission report when VP Singh was PM.

No kidding!

Then how come in my grade 6 in 1950s there were about 40 students in my class, out of which nearly 35 students (belonging to the castes as farmers etc.) paid no monthly school fee, while the remaining 5 or so students in class (out of 40) belonging to the caste /category brahmins etc. paid more than 3 Rs. each per month?

Btw, rupee was considerably valuable at that time especially in the villages. During one season at that time, my family (growing vegetables etc.) sold more than 25 kilos of okra for one rupee in wholesale to vegetable vendors. My father had extremely hard time sending 100 rupees per month to me even during 1960s when I was in IIT ... I was usually late paying the hostel bills and tuition fee etc. and often had to borrow money from friends.

I also remember during 1950s, my cousin brother (belonging to the "brahmin" caste) sending his application for Intermidiate (grade 12) college exam. He needed to send about Rs. 170 along with the application form, the amount which was not required from students falling under the backward and scheduled caste categories (farmers and other castes). My cousin's widowed mother sold all her jewelary to pay for her son's college exam fee at that time (I remember accompanying my father and his sister, my aunt, to the shop of goldsmith for the transaction).

by Seva Lamberdar Mon Apr 15, 2013 10:08 am

What really annoys me that these people constantly trying to whitewash the history.

by Guest Mon Apr 15, 2013 10:48 am

Seva Lamberdar wrote:What really annoys me that these people constantly trying to whitewash the history.

Do you agree or disagree with Nehru:

http://www.dnaindia.com/india/1575691/report-jawaharlal-nehru-had-warned-against-aarakshan

by Guest Mon Apr 15, 2013 10:50 am

Karan Thapar: According to the NSSO - which is a government appointed body - 23.5 per cent of the college seats are already with the OBCs.

http://bloggerick.blogspot.com/2006/05/pandit-nehru-on-reservations.html

by Seva Lamberdar Mon Apr 15, 2013 11:00 am

Rashmun wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:What really annoys me that these people constantly trying to whitewash the history.

Do you agree or disagree with Nehru:

[url=http://www.dnaindia.com/india/1575691/report-jawaharlal-nehru-had-warned-against-aarakshan

http://www.dnaindia.com/india/1575691/report-jawaharlal-nehru-had-warned-against-aarakshan[/quote[/url]]

read my earlier responses.

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Apr 15, 2013 11:10 am

Rashmun wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:rashmun - wish you had some gumption of your own instead of relying on others' reasoning. time to grow up and become an adult.

I am agreeing with and endorsing Nehru's views on this issue which I think is the correct view. I don't see what exactly is your problem with this approach.

is it possible for you without the crutch of others' thinking, on your own, to look at any societal issue and form and state a reasoned position? why does it always have to be nehru's, guha's, cashew nut's, akbar's or karan thapar's opinion?

by Guest Mon Apr 15, 2013 11:49 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:rashmun - wish you had some gumption of your own instead of relying on others' reasoning. time to grow up and become an adult.

I am agreeing with and endorsing Nehru's views on this issue which I think is the correct view. I don't see what exactly is your problem with this approach.

is it possible for you without the crutch of others' thinking, on your own, to look at any societal issue and form and state a reasoned position? why does it always have to be nehru's, guha's, cashew nut's, akbar's or karan thapar's opinion?

This is a discussion forum. My posts here are not meant to be papers published in peer reviewed journals. There is absolutely no problem if I post the views of Nehru or Guha or Akbar or Thapar etc. if I agree with those views. Your criticism would be justified if I did not defend those views of others which I have posted in the event that the arguments or viewpoints I have given of others are criticised or attacked. Only then could you have claimed that I am guilty of parroting other views without any reflection or analysis of my own but that is not the case here. Since the fact is that I am prepared to defend the views of others which I have given.

In fact I have a good case of accusing you of parroting PP's criticism of me without using your own mind.

by garam_kuta Mon Apr 15, 2013 11:59 am

Seva Lamberdar wrote:
garam_kuta wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:Instead of supposedly writing letters to family and party members about his reservations on caste based reservations, he should have spoken publicly and campaigned against them, which he did not do.

what are the chances of Nehru being called a wuzzy iyer-boy for this, by our resident randy savage?

LOL. I have no clue about the chances part.

indeed!

by Hellsangel Mon Apr 15, 2013 12:00 pm

garam_kuta wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:
garam_kuta wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:Instead of supposedly writing letters to family and party members about his reservations on caste based reservations, he should have spoken publicly and campaigned against them, which he did not do.

what are the chances of Nehru being called a wuzzy iyer-boy for this, by our resident randy savage?

LOL. I have no clue about the chances part.

indeed!

Aww! Dear frog-faced Wussy Iyer boy, are your feelings still hurt?

by Guest Mon Apr 15, 2013 12:06 pm

Hellsangel wrote:
garam_kuta wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:
garam_kuta wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:Instead of supposedly writing letters to family and party members about his reservations on caste based reservations, he should have spoken publicly and campaigned against them, which he did not do.

what are the chances of Nehru being called a wuzzy iyer-boy for this, by our resident randy savage?

LOL. I have no clue about the chances part.

indeed!

Aww! Dear frog-faced Wussy Iyer boy, are your feelings still hurt?

Could you please take your fight to some other thread? Thanks.

by Seva Lamberdar Wed Apr 17, 2013 4:56 pm

Rashmun wrote:Karan Thapar: According to the NSSO - which is a government appointed body - 23.5 per cent of the college seats are already with the OBCs.

]

>>> The reservations in education and jobs under the separate categories for backward castes and scheduled castes were already existing before the Mandal Commission. What Mandal Commission did differently creating a lot of hue and cry from non-quota castes was that it recommended a huge sudden increase in quotas for OBC, setting the new reservations for OBCs at more than 50% which had no justification ethically and according the size of OBC population.

"Note that c8)aste based quotas and reservations in education and jobs also give the impression of continuing political interference and manipulation. It seems the politicians try to use these quotas to establish and promote voting blocs for them. Sometimes there is even the use of unnecessary and random surveys and studies which often lead to erroneous information and misleading conclusions about castes. For example, the results and findings reported in (B) and (C) below indicate a significant variation in the numbers (percentages) of OBCs, which perhaps is a sign of different methodologies and problems associated with these surveys, under consideration here. Similarly, the politicians and officials appear to manipulate and spike these numbers and results to their own benefit. Note, the number of OBCs (52%) used by Mandal Commission in its recommendation on quotas and reservations is considerably higher, perhaps even politically motivated, than the actual number for OBCs (between 30% and 40%) reported in (B) and (C)." [url=http://creative.sulekha.com/india-and-the-parliamentary-democracy_441992_blog]http://creative.sulekha.com/india-and-the-parliamentary-democracy_441992_blog

The logical case against caste based reservations

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