Re: Gujarat GDP growth and Narendra Modi's economic record

by Seva Lamberdar Sun Jul 28, 2013 8:24 pm

Idéfix wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:More than 70% of Maharashtra's earnings are from or by virtue of Bomabay / Mumbai alone, the financial capital of India. What happens in Mumbai to propel the economic activity is not just due to the decisions by Maharashtra Govt. and its CM, but also the result of the economic / financial policies of India's Central Govt. and the nearby Gujarat Govt.
When it comes to investments, job creation, etc. Mumbai is affected by the government of Maharashtra just as much as Ahmedabad is impacted by the government of Gujarat. No more, no less.

Actually, forget about Maharashtra. Try this on for size: G has $10,000 in his pocket, while T has $12,000. G earns an additional $1,030 and T earns an additional $1,200. G touts his 10.3% growth as exceptional, while T has only achieved 10.0%. Who do you like more now, G or T?

Let us see what other excuses you can come up with now.

Naturally, G ... based on the governance in Gujarat and Tamilnadu. The more public money has been scammed and squandered by officials and politicians in Tamilnadu than Gujarat. Similarly, compare the largest cities in Gujarat and Tamilnadu (Ahmedabad and Chennai, respectively) in terms of their infrastructure, development and public services etc. ... Ahmedabad seems to be doing better.

by Idéfix Sun Jul 28, 2013 8:26 pm

Seva Lamberdar wrote:
Idéfix wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:More than 70% of Maharashtra's earnings are from or by virtue of Bomabay / Mumbai alone, the financial capital of India. What happens in Mumbai to propel the economic activity is not just due to the decisions by Maharashtra Govt. and its CM, but also the result of the economic / financial policies of India's Central Govt. and the nearby Gujarat Govt.
When it comes to investments, job creation, etc. Mumbai is affected by the government of Maharashtra just as much as Ahmedabad is impacted by the government of Gujarat. No more, no less.

Actually, forget about Maharashtra. Try this on for size: G has $10,000 in his pocket, while T has $12,000. G earns an additional $1,030 and T earns an additional $1,200. G touts his 10.3% growth as exceptional, while T has only achieved 10.0%. Who do you like more now, G or T?

Let us see what other excuses you can come up with now.

Naturally, G ... based on the governance in Gujarat and Tamilnadu. The more public money has been scammed and squandered by officials and politicians in Tamilnadu than Gujarat. Similarly, compare the largest cities in Gujarat and Tamilnadu (Ahmedabad and Chennai, respectively) in terms of their infrastructure, development and public services etc. ... Ahmedabad seems to be doing better.

Hahaha, so it all comes down to what you want to like. And you will make up reasons to like it no matter what the numbers tell you. Then why bother with the math in the first place with Gujarat and Bihar?

BTW, in the comparisons I gave between G, M, and T, I used an approximately correct proportion of the GDPs of those states. In your comparison of G and B, you indicated that G is five times as large as B; it is not. G is twice as large as B.

by Seva Lamberdar Sun Jul 28, 2013 8:37 pm

Idéfix wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:
Idéfix wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:More than 70% of Maharashtra's earnings are from or by virtue of Bomabay / Mumbai alone, the financial capital of India. What happens in Mumbai to propel the economic activity is not just due to the decisions by Maharashtra Govt. and its CM, but also the result of the economic / financial policies of India's Central Govt. and the nearby Gujarat Govt.
When it comes to investments, job creation, etc. Mumbai is affected by the government of Maharashtra just as much as Ahmedabad is impacted by the government of Gujarat. No more, no less.

Actually, forget about Maharashtra. Try this on for size: G has $10,000 in his pocket, while T has $12,000. G earns an additional $1,030 and T earns an additional $1,200. G touts his 10.3% growth as exceptional, while T has only achieved 10.0%. Who do you like more now, G or T?

Let us see what other excuses you can come up with now.

Naturally, G ... based on the governance in Gujarat and Tamilnadu. The more public money has been scammed and squandered by officials and politicians in Tamilnadu than Gujarat. Similarly, compare the largest cities in Gujarat and Tamilnadu (Ahmedabad and Chennai, respectively) in terms of their infrastructure, development and public services etc. ... Ahmedabad seems to be doing better.
Hahaha, so it all comes down to what you want to like. And you will make up reasons to like it no matter what the numbers tell you. Then why bother with the math in the first place with Gujarat and Bihar?

BTW, in the comparisons I gave between G, M, and T, I used an approximately correct proportion of the GDPs of those states. In your comparison of G and B, you indicated that G is five times as large as B; it is not. G is twice as large as B.

Okay, compare the governance in Bihar with that in Gujarat.
Let's consider the law and order situation (including public safety in general, on roads and in trains etc.), the public infrastructure and services etc. in Patna (Bihar's largest city and its capital) and Ahmedabad (Gujarat's capital and largest city) ... Ahmedabad (Gujarat) seems to be doing a better job these days (for several years now) if you follow the news in media on a regular basis.

by southindian Sun Jul 28, 2013 8:44 pm

Idéfix wrote:
southindian wrote:The good charts here say nothing against Modi. Nothing.
Try this one: https://such.forumotion.com/t14803p50-gujarat-gdp-growth-and-narendra-modi-s-economic-record#113903

Nice charts there. % HDI change of NorthIndian BIMARU states are higher than Gujarat and all of SouthIndia. ROTFL Let's elect Mayawati, Mulayam and Rajasthan CM based on that chart. Smile

Gujarat's change in HDI is 13%, but Gujarat is considered having higher human development for decades compared to any BIMARU states. Sorry, doesn't cut it against Modi for PM post.

Modi's alleged divisive strategy is better. That flute has more alleged notes for 'seculars' than the economic tune.

As I said this thread based on the Subject is not a good thread to be going against Modi.

by Idéfix Sun Jul 28, 2013 9:15 pm

southindian wrote:
Idéfix wrote:
southindian wrote:The good charts here say nothing against Modi. Nothing.
Try this one: https://such.forumotion.com/t14803p50-gujarat-gdp-growth-and-narendra-modi-s-economic-record#113903
Nice charts there. % HDI change of NorthIndian BIMARU states are higher than Gujarat and all of SouthIndia. ROTFL Let's elect Mayawati, Mulayam and Rajasthan CM based on that chart.

Gujarat's change in HDI is 13%, but Gujarat is considered having higher human development for decades compared to any BIMARU states. Sorry, doesn't cut it against Modi for PM post.

Modi's alleged divisive strategy is better. That flute has more alleged notes for 'seculars' than the economic tune.

As I said this thread based on the Subject is not a good thread to be going against Modi.

You apparently missed the key takeaway from the chart: both major states that have higher human development than Gujarat grew it at a faster rate than Gujarat. Pay close attention to the bottom of the chart, right after Gujarat.
Gujarat GDP growth and Narendra Modi's economic record - Page 4 Captur22

Gujarat GDP growth and Narendra Modi's economic record - Page 4 Captur22

Those states are pulling away from Gujarat in HDI improvement, while staying close enough to Gujarat on GDP growth to be within rounding error.

That is not worthy of the words people have used to describe Modi's performance in this very thread: exceptional, unmatched.

by Seva Lamberdar Sun Jul 28, 2013 9:25 pm

southindian wrote:
Idéfix wrote:
southindian wrote:The good charts here say nothing against Modi. Nothing.
Try this one: https://such.forumotion.com/t14803p50-gujarat-gdp-growth-and-narendra-modi-s-economic-record#113903
Nice charts there. % HDI change of NorthIndian BIMARU states are higher than Gujarat and all of SouthIndia. ROTFL Let's elect Mayawati, Mulayam and Rajasthan CM based on that chart.

Gujarat's change in HDI is 13%, but Gujarat is considered having higher human development for decades compared to any BIMARU states. Sorry, doesn't cut it against Modi for PM post.

Modi's alleged divisive strategy is better. That flute has more alleged notes for 'seculars' than the economic tune.

As I said this thread based on the Subject is not a good thread to be going against Modi.

According to this chart the HDI for Bihar is about 26%, double that for Gujarat (13%). Let's see how many people from outside would like to go and live in Patna (Bihar) rather than Ahmedabad (Gujarat)? Similarly, if the HDI for Bihar is so high (higher than other states), how come many Biharis (especially in the labor class) are compelled to seek work in other states (including in Gujarat etc.)? Moreover, in spite of the high HDI, there seem to be more Biharis going out for work to other states than people from other states seeking work in Bihar.... why is that?

by southindian Sun Jul 28, 2013 9:29 pm

Idéfix wrote:
southindian wrote:The good charts here say nothing against Modi. Nothing.
Try this one: https://such.forumotion.com/t14803p50-gujarat-gdp-growth-and-narendra-modi-s-economic-record#113903

Sir, HDI % change is a very, very poor attempt to go against Modi's Gujarat compared to other North Indian (BIMARU) states. Pick another reason to go against Modi and I'm sure you'll find many.

Here's why through an example

Period: 1980 to 2012
Comparing USA and India HDI % change

USA % HDI change +10.03% (much like Gujarat in your chart) Source: http://hdrstats.undp.org/images/explanations/USA.pdf
India % HDI change +61.00% (much like BIMARU states in your chart) Source: http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/undp-brackets-india-with-equatorial-guinea-in-human-development-index/article4510390.ece\

I often meet marketing guys, giving me a spin like you did with your HDI chart. As I said, this thread Subject gives absolutely no leverage against Modi and I hope Modi supporters here see through these chart examples which are used as weapons against Modi. None work.

by Idéfix Sun Jul 28, 2013 10:32 pm

Seva Lamberdar wrote:
southindian wrote:
Idéfix wrote:
southindian wrote:The good charts here say nothing against Modi. Nothing.
Try this one: https://such.forumotion.com/t14803p50-gujarat-gdp-growth-and-narendra-modi-s-economic-record#113903
Nice charts there. % HDI change of NorthIndian BIMARU states are higher than Gujarat and all of SouthIndia. ROTFL Let's elect Mayawati, Mulayam and Rajasthan CM based on that chart.

Gujarat's change in HDI is 13%, but Gujarat is considered having higher human development for decades compared to any BIMARU states. Sorry, doesn't cut it against Modi for PM post.

Modi's alleged divisive strategy is better. That flute has more alleged notes for 'seculars' than the economic tune.

As I said this thread based on the Subject is not a good thread to be going against Modi.

According to this chart the HDI for Bihar is about 26%, double that for Gujarat (13%). Let's see how many people from outside would like to go and live in Patna (Bihar) rather than Ahmedabad (Gujarat)? Similarly, if the HDI for Bihar is so high (higher than other states), how come many Biharis (especially in the labor class) are compelled to seek work in other states (including in Gujarat etc.)? Moreover, in spite of the high HDI, there seem to be more Biharis going out for work to other states than people from other states seeking work in Bihar.... why is that?

Sevaji, Bihar does not have a high HDI. Read my posts above carefully and you may understand.

by Idéfix Mon Jul 29, 2013 12:28 am

southindian wrote:Here's why through an example

Period: 1980 to 2012
Comparing USA and India HDI % change

India and the US are not comparable peers when it comes to HDI. India and China are comparable, because they started in 1980 in about the the range. Let me illustrate this for you with a chart.
Gujarat GDP growth and Narendra Modi's economic record - Page 4 Captur28

Gujarat GDP growth and Narendra Modi's economic record - Page 4 Captur28

As you can see, you can derive meaningful insight from comparing the improvements between India and China, which both were in the low development area in 1980, but you cannot derive meaningful insight from comparing the improvements between the US and India. In fact, the very report you cite compares the HDI % change in the US to its own peers: Australia and Canada. Comparing HDI improvement over time is a valuable metric per the report you cited yourself.

Now, let us see if Gujarat, Karnataka, Maharashtra, and Tamil Nadu are comparable peers in terms of HDI. Here is a chart showing improvement between 2000 and 2008:
Gujarat GDP growth and Narendra Modi's economic record - Page 4 Captur30

Gujarat GDP growth and Narendra Modi's economic record - Page 4 Captur30

Now, if you argue that Bihar is not a comparable peer of Gujarat because its HDI was way below Gujarat's in 2000, I agree with you. You could perhaps say that about Andhra Pradesh as well. But Karnataka, Tamil Nadu, and Maharashtra are truly comparable peers for Gujarat. In comparison with those three states, Gujarat has both the least absolute increase (0.061 points) as well as the least percentage increase.

southindian wrote:I often meet marketing guys, giving me a spin like you did with your HDI chart. As I said, this thread Subject gives absolutely no leverage against Modi and I hope Modi supporters here see through these chart examples which are used as weapons against Modi. None work.

If there is any spin in all this, it was Modi's projection as a development wizard. I am just showing numbers in a chart. I don't plan to let Modi supporters get away with that projection if (and only if) the numbers don't show an "exceptional" or "unmatched" performance.

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Mon Jul 29, 2013 12:36 am

Idéfix wrote:
If there is any spin in all this, it was Modi's projection as a development wizard. I am just showing numbers in a chart. I don't plan to let Modi supporters get away with that projection if (and only if) the numbers don't show an "exceptional" or "unmatched" performance.

You are nitpicking words stated during political rhetoric and holding onto them like Court deposition under oath - namelu, unmatched and exceptional, etc..

going by your objections, you should be waging a 1000-yr war on the rhetoric made on behalf of MT Sonia Mata (who sacrificed the most in India), Prince Rahul (the only one who can save India and the Congress), Congress (the only one that can save India). After all, you are an unbiased and objective analyst. I have full confidence in you to come up with graphs and charts to wage your 100-yr war against MT Mata and Prince Rahul.

by Merlot Daruwala Mon Jul 29, 2013 12:37 am

Idéfix wrote:
Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:So far your campaign - as also that of MAX and other PiS Gang - has been negative against Modi. I have been waiting for 2 days now to hear from you what the voter should do and why - using graphs, bells and whistles....
The voter should do whoever (s)he thinks will best represent them. My purpose on this thread is not to campaign for any particular candidate. It's a little early in the election season for that. I am just showing real data to evaluate the accomplishments of a candidate.

Haha..you can go hoarse protesting this, my friend, but it's not going to change anything. You can never fool NaMo fanboys with all your fancy charts and cherry-picked data. If you are not singing hosannas at the emergence of the greatest Hindu leader since Rana Pratap, then you must be a CONgoon lapdog, and you will be stripped of all awards by the next NDA government.

by garam_kuta Mon Jul 29, 2013 12:41 am

Merlot Daruwala wrote:
Idéfix wrote:
Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:So far your campaign - as also that of MAX and other PiS Gang - has been negative against Modi. I have been waiting for 2 days now to hear from you what the voter should do and why - using graphs, bells and whistles....
The voter should do whoever (s)he thinks will best represent them. My purpose on this thread is not to campaign for any particular candidate. It's a little early in the election season for that. I am just showing real data to evaluate the accomplishments of a candidate.

Haha..you can go hoarse protesting this, my friend, but it's not going to change anything. You can never fool NaMo fanboys with all your fancy charts and cherry-picked data. If you are not singing hosannas at the emergence of the greatest Hindu leader since Rana Pratap, then you must be a CONgoon lapdog, and you will be stripped of all awards by the next NDA government.

aiyO, aiaiyO.. devarae...kyaa ji thummu... beLagae beLagae aawaazu... Wink

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Mon Jul 29, 2013 12:42 am

Merlot Daruwala wrote:
Idéfix wrote:
Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:So far your campaign - as also that of MAX and other PiS Gang - has been negative against Modi. I have been waiting for 2 days now to hear from you what the voter should do and why - using graphs, bells and whistles....
The voter should do whoever (s)he thinks will best represent them. My purpose on this thread is not to campaign for any particular candidate. It's a little early in the election season for that. I am just showing real data to evaluate the accomplishments of a candidate.

Haha..you can go hoarse protesting this, my friend, but it's not going to change anything. You can never fool NaMo fanboys with all your fancy charts and cherry-picked data. If you are not singing hosannas at the emergence of the greatest Hindu leader since Rana Pratap, then you must be a ~~CONgoon~~ pseudo-iSlamic lapdog, and you will be stripped of all awards by the next NDA government.

hahahaha...fixed.... Wink

Didn't you know that your and your gang has been elevated to a higher status?

by Seva Lamberdar Mon Jul 29, 2013 7:24 am

Idéfix wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:
southindian wrote:
Idéfix wrote:
southindian wrote:The good charts here say nothing against Modi. Nothing.
Try this one: https://such.forumotion.com/t14803p50-gujarat-gdp-growth-and-narendra-modi-s-economic-record#113903
Nice charts there. % HDI change of NorthIndian BIMARU states are higher than Gujarat and all of SouthIndia. ROTFL Let's elect Mayawati, Mulayam and Rajasthan CM based on that chart.

Gujarat's change in HDI is 13%, but Gujarat is considered having higher human development for decades compared to any BIMARU states. Sorry, doesn't cut it against Modi for PM post.

Modi's alleged divisive strategy is better. That flute has more alleged notes for 'seculars' than the economic tune.

As I said this thread based on the Subject is not a good thread to be going against Modi.

According to this chart the HDI for Bihar is about 26%, double that for Gujarat (13%). Let's see how many people from outside would like to go and live in Patna (Bihar) rather than Ahmedabad (Gujarat)? Similarly, if the HDI for Bihar is so high (higher than other states), how come many Biharis (especially in the labor class) are compelled to seek work in other states (including in Gujarat etc.)? Moreover, in spite of the high HDI, there seem to be more Biharis going out for work to other states than people from other states seeking work in Bihar.... why is that?

Sevaji, Bihar does not have a high HDI. Read my posts above carefully and you may understand.

I referred to the chart on this site ... https://such.forumotion.com/t14803p50-gujarat-gdp-growth-and-narendra-modi-s-economic-record#113903

Anyway, the point was that don't look solely at these charts and diagrams which might be the result of questionable studies and assumptions and spurious data.

The real factors needing consideration are the type of governance, law and order situation (including the the corruption and mismanagement etc. in Govt. and public sector), public infrastructure and facilities (education etc.), and the overall economic well-being of ordinary people,….

by Propagandhi711 Mon Jul 29, 2013 11:22 am

Merlot Daruwala wrote:
Idéfix wrote:
Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:So far your campaign - as also that of MAX and other PiS Gang - has been negative against Modi. I have been waiting for 2 days now to hear from you what the voter should do and why - using graphs, bells and whistles....
The voter should do whoever (s)he thinks will best represent them. My purpose on this thread is not to campaign for any particular candidate. It's a little early in the election season for that. I am just showing real data to evaluate the accomplishments of a candidate.

Haha..you can go hoarse protesting this, my friend, but it's not going to change anything. You can never fool NaMo fanboys with all your fancy charts and cherry-picked data. If you are not singing hosannas at the emergence of the greatest Hindu leader since Rana Pratap, then you must be a CONgoon lapdog, and you will be stripped of all awards by the next NDA government.

yeah but your sneering sarcasm will.

also our data scientist is being a tad disingenuous claiming this is not an effort to campaign for any particular candidate. which is why he presented data about both parties. wait...he didn't do that. well knowing he's fair and balanced, he'll probably post it next week and not cherry pick data this time.

by Idéfix Mon Jul 29, 2013 12:20 pm

Propagandhi711 wrote:also our data scientist is being a tad disingenuous claiming this is not an effort to campaign for any particular candidate. which is why he presented data about both parties. wait...he didn't do that. well knowing he's fair and balanced, he'll probably post it next week and not cherry pick data this time.

If you don't like the numbers, blame the analyst!

Reminds of a time not that long ago when I was accused on this forum of being a BJP supporter because I attacked Congress. I wasn't campaigning for BJP then, and I am not campaigning for Congress now.

by Hellsangel Mon Jul 29, 2013 12:27 pm

Idéfix wrote:
Propagandhi711 wrote:also our data scientist is being a tad disingenuous claiming this is not an effort to campaign for any particular candidate. which is why he presented data about both parties. wait...he didn't do that. well knowing he's fair and balanced, he'll probably post it next week and not cherry pick data this time.
If you don't like the numbers, blame the analyst!

Reminds of a time not that long ago when I was accused on this forum of being a BJP supporter because I attacked Congress. I wasn't campaigning for BJP then, and I am not campaigning for Congress now.

Who called you a BJP supporter? He/she needs to have his/her head examined.

by Idéfix Mon Jul 29, 2013 12:29 pm

Hellsangel wrote:
Idéfix wrote:
Propagandhi711 wrote:also our data scientist is being a tad disingenuous claiming this is not an effort to campaign for any particular candidate. which is why he presented data about both parties. wait...he didn't do that. well knowing he's fair and balanced, he'll probably post it next week and not cherry pick data this time.
If you don't like the numbers, blame the analyst!

Reminds of a time not that long ago when I was accused on this forum of being a BJP supporter because I attacked Congress. I wasn't campaigning for BJP then, and I am not campaigning for Congress now.

Who called you a BJP supporter? He/she needs to have his/her head examined.

I agree. I think the same way about people who call me a Congress supporter.

by Hellsangel Mon Jul 29, 2013 12:33 pm

Idéfix wrote:
Hellsangel wrote:
Idéfix wrote:
Propagandhi711 wrote:also our data scientist is being a tad disingenuous claiming this is not an effort to campaign for any particular candidate. which is why he presented data about both parties. wait...he didn't do that. well knowing he's fair and balanced, he'll probably post it next week and not cherry pick data this time.
If you don't like the numbers, blame the analyst!

Reminds of a time not that long ago when I was accused on this forum of being a BJP supporter because I attacked Congress. I wasn't campaigning for BJP then, and I am not campaigning for Congress now.

Who called you a BJP supporter? He/she needs to have his/her head examined.
I agree. I think the same way about people who call me a Congress supporter.

You didn't answer the question about who. I think I can guess who.

by Idéfix Mon Jul 29, 2013 12:35 pm

Hellsangel wrote:
Idéfix wrote:
Hellsangel wrote:
Idéfix wrote:
Propagandhi711 wrote:also our data scientist is being a tad disingenuous claiming this is not an effort to campaign for any particular candidate. which is why he presented data about both parties. wait...he didn't do that. well knowing he's fair and balanced, he'll probably post it next week and not cherry pick data this time.
If you don't like the numbers, blame the analyst!

Reminds of a time not that long ago when I was accused on this forum of being a BJP supporter because I attacked Congress. I wasn't campaigning for BJP then, and I am not campaigning for Congress now.

Who called you a BJP supporter? He/she needs to have his/her head examined.
I agree. I think the same way about people who call me a Congress supporter.

You didn't answer the question about who. I think I can guess who.

Oh, it is Rashmun.

by goodcitizn Mon Jul 29, 2013 12:46 pm

Idéfix wrote:
southindian wrote:Here's why through an example

Period: 1980 to 2012
Comparing USA and India HDI % change
India and the US are not comparable peers when it comes to HDI. India and China are comparable, because they started in 1980 in about the the range. Let me illustrate this for you with a chart.

As you can see, you can derive meaningful insight from comparing the improvements between India and China, which both were in the low development area in 1980, but you cannot derive meaningful insight from comparing the improvements between the US and India. In fact, the very report you cite compares the HDI % change in the US to its own peers: Australia and Canada. Comparing HDI improvement over time is a valuable metric per the report you cited yourself.

Now, let us see if Gujarat, Karnataka, Maharashtra, and Tamil Nadu are comparable peers in terms of HDI. Here is a chart showing improvement between 2000 and 2008:

Now, if you argue that Bihar is not a comparable peer of Gujarat because its HDI was way below Gujarat's in 2000, I agree with you. You could perhaps say that about Andhra Pradesh as well. But Karnataka, Tamil Nadu, and Maharashtra are truly comparable peers for Gujarat. In comparison with those three states, Gujarat has both the least absolute increase (0.061 points) as well as the least percentage increase.

southindian wrote:I often meet marketing guys, giving me a spin like you did with your HDI chart. As I said, this thread Subject gives absolutely no leverage against Modi and I hope Modi supporters here see through these chart examples which are used as weapons against Modi. None work.
If there is any spin in all this, it was Modi's projection as a development wizard. I am just showing numbers in a chart. I don't plan to let Modi supporters get away with that projection if (and only if) the numbers don't show an "exceptional" or "unmatched" performance.

This HDI chart showing the base, absolute and % growth, is more meaningful than just going by GDP growth. As for me, I don't think you have any bias albeit people here are jumping to conclusions about your motive. That is nothing new in SUch.

The problem is not with Modi, however. Gujarat ranks pretty well against most other states, particularly BIMARU. Congress has faired very poorly in all respects over the past few years, mired in corruption and inaction. People are increasingly fed up with the status quo in governance. If one were to go by experience and performance, Modi is definitely a better choice compared to Rahul. Congress will make a huge mistake if they project Rahul to be the next PM. Meanwhile there is conflict within BJP over Modi and it is a little early to see how that plays out.

The game is different in politics any more since it is no longer just NCP or BJP. Much depends on who will partner with whom considering the impact of SP, BSP, TC, JD(U), AIDMK etc on the final tally. I have a curious question. What is the probability that a coalition of non-BJP, non-NCP comes to power in 2014? Who will be their choice for PM?

by Propagandhi711 Mon Jul 29, 2013 12:50 pm

Idéfix wrote:
Propagandhi711 wrote:also our data scientist is being a tad disingenuous claiming this is not an effort to campaign for any particular candidate. which is why he presented data about both parties. wait...he didn't do that. well knowing he's fair and balanced, he'll probably post it next week and not cherry pick data this time.
If you don't like the numbers, blame the analyst!

Reminds of a time not that long ago when I was accused on this forum of being a BJP supporter because I attacked Congress. I wasn't campaigning for BJP then, and I am not campaigning for Congress now.

its the first tool in the partisan toolbox, to start pulling selective data to show one side in the bad light while not saying much abt the other side's abject performance on every front. if you didnt do the exact same thing during the months leading upto 2012 elections, I woulda given you benefit of the doubt.

PS: the only fools calling you a BJP supporter are the unbalanced homosexual odd couple that even they themselves dont take seriously on a good day.

by Jebediah Mburuburu Mon Jul 29, 2013 12:56 pm

goodcitizn wrote:
Congress has faired very poorly in all respects over the past few years,...

"fared," not "faired."

by Idéfix Mon Jul 29, 2013 1:00 pm

goodcitizn wrote:Congress has faired very poorly in all respects over the past few years, mired in corruption and inaction. People are increasingly fed up with the status quo in governance. If one were to go by experience and performance, Modi is definitely a better choice compared to Rahul. Congress will make a huge mistake if they project Rahul to be the next PM. Meanwhile there is conflict within BJP over Modi and it is a little early to see how that plays out.

I agree Modi has more experience and proven ability to manage a government well than Rahul. The worst thing Congress can do at this point is nominate Rahul for PM. Indians are not stupid; they can see that Rahul is an untested quantity with a weak work ethic, average (or worse) intelligence, and suffering from muddleheadedness and chronic foot-in-mouth disease. Modi is confident, intelligent, articulate, decisive, clearheaded, and hard-working. In a Modi vs. Rahul contest, it will boil down to whether people think Modi's communally-divisive record is something they are willing to go with.

Congress is a family enterprise more than a political party, so even if they realize all this, they will put family above country and nominate Rahul. When Modi becomes PM, he can thank Congress for making it easy.

goodcitizn wrote:The game is different in politics any more since it is no longer just NCP or BJP. Much depends on who will partner with whom considering the impact of SP, BSP, TC, JD(U), AIDMK etc on the final tally. I have a curious question. What is the probability that a coalition of non-BJP, non-NCP comes to power in 2014? Who will be their choice for PM?

I think that's a really small probability. I do hope it happens, and Nitish Kumar of Bihar would make a good choice of PM candidate for that grouping.

by Idéfix Mon Jul 29, 2013 1:05 pm

Propagandhi711 wrote:if you didnt do the exact same thing during the months leading upto 2012 elections, I woulda given you benefit of the doubt.

In the 2012 US elections, I clearly and unambiguously picked a side and a candidate, and said so from the outset. It was the same candidate and side that I had vocally supported as a partisan in the 2008 election as well.

In the 2014 Indian elections, I don't have a candidate or a side. I didn't have a side in 2009 that I actively supported. I was more of an observer than a participant. If I end up picking a side this time round, I will be sure to let you know.

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Jul 29, 2013 1:12 pm

when there is such a hunger for a third candidate, why is one not emerging?

by goodcitizn Mon Jul 29, 2013 1:15 pm

Jebediah Mburuburu wrote:
goodcitizn wrote:
Congress has faired very poorly in all respects over the past few years,...
"fared," not "faired."

You and I both know that it was an accidental mistake. That said, I am glad you are armed with your blue pencil and SUch would be a sad place without your able and unpaid assistance.

by goodcitizn Mon Jul 29, 2013 1:17 pm

Idéfix wrote:
I think that's a really small probability. I do hope it happens, and Nitish Kumar of Bihar would make a good choice of PM candidate for that grouping.

What impresses you about Nitish Kumar?

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Jul 29, 2013 1:21 pm

some weird variant of the stockholm syndrome at work here:

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Muslim-women-send-Rakhi-to-Narendra-Modi-and-pray-for-his-well-being/articleshow/21456881.cms

by Idéfix Mon Jul 29, 2013 1:33 pm

goodcitizn wrote:What impresses you about Nitish Kumar?

He got Bihar working again, and put it on a solid growth path. If present trends continue, Bihar will overtake UP in the next few years on per-capita GDP and other important indicators. Before Nitish, Bihar was written off as a basket case by experts. There are no major corruption allegations against him, after seven years as CM of probably India's most corrupt state. He comes across as a pragmatist without too much ideological baggage, and can get things done by working across the NDA-UPA divide as needed. Bottomline: having spent some time in Bihar as a teenager, I think whoever can get Bihar to change its ways for the better deserves a lot of respect.

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Mon Jul 29, 2013 1:42 pm

Idéfix wrote:
Propagandhi711 wrote:also our data scientist is being a tad disingenuous claiming this is not an effort to campaign for any particular candidate. which is why he presented data about both parties. wait...he didn't do that. well knowing he's fair and balanced, he'll probably post it next week and not cherry pick data this time.
If you don't like the numbers, blame the analyst!

Reminds of a time not that long ago when I was accused on this forum of being a BJP supporter because I attacked Congress. I wasn't campaigning for BJP then, and I am not campaigning for Congress now.

Wait..are you supporting Kejriwal? You sound like Anna ji.

You are not campaigning for any party. But, you are campaigning AGAINST BJP, and AGAINST Modi.

That is fine and you have the right. But, dont crave for the title "unbiased-honest."

by Idéfix Mon Jul 29, 2013 1:45 pm

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:But, dont crave for the title "unbiased-honest."

I enjoy it when both BJP and Congress supporters call me biased against their side. It tells me I am doing something right.

by Idéfix Mon Jul 29, 2013 2:07 pm

Seva Lamberdar wrote:
Idéfix wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:According to this chart the HDI for Bihar is about 26%, double that for Gujarat (13%). Let's see how many people from outside would like to go and live in Patna (Bihar) rather than Ahmedabad (Gujarat)? Similarly, if the HDI for Bihar is so high (higher than other states), how come many Biharis (especially in the labor class) are compelled to seek work in other states (including in Gujarat etc.)? Moreover, in spite of the high HDI, there seem to be more Biharis going out for work to other states than people from other states seeking work in Bihar.... why is that?

Sevaji, Bihar does not have a high HDI. Read my posts above carefully and you may understand.

I referred to the chart on this site ... https://such.forumotion.com/t14803p50-gujarat-gdp-growth-and-narendra-modi-s-economic-record#113903

I think you stand a chance of understanding the point if you read carefully. Let me quote from the post you linked: The chart shows the percentage change in HDI in each major state between 2000 and 2008, the last year included in this report.

Seva Lamberdar wrote:The real factors needing consideration are the type of governance, law and order situation (including the the corruption and mismanagement etc. in Govt. and public sector), public infrastructure and facilities (education etc.), and the overall economic well-being of ordinary people,….

Several of these factors that contribute to the "overall economic well-being of ordinary people" are reflected in the Human Development Index. Here is the Human Development Index performance of Gujarat under Modi, compared to a few other states:
Gujarat GDP growth and Narendra Modi's economic record - Page 4 Captur30

by Hellsangel Mon Jul 29, 2013 2:10 pm

Idéfix wrote:
Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:But, dont crave for the title "unbiased-honest."
I enjoy it when both BJP and Congress supporters call me biased against their side. It tells me I am doing something right.

I don't think anyone thinks you are pro Congress. But I think everyone knows you are anti BJP.

by southindian Mon Jul 29, 2013 2:11 pm

Idéfix wrote:
goodcitizn wrote:What impresses you about Nitish Kumar?
He got Bihar working again, and put it on a solid growth path. If present trends continue, Bihar will overtake UP in the next few years on per-capita GDP and other important indicators. Before Nitish, Bihar was written off as a basket case by experts. There are no major corruption allegations against him, after seven years as CM of probably India's most corrupt state. He comes across as a pragmatist without too much ideological baggage, and can get things done by working across the NDA-UPA divide as needed. Bottomline: having spent some time in Bihar as a teenager, I think whoever can get Bihar to change its ways for the better deserves a lot of respect.

Agree Nitish Kumar has done a nice job for Bihar and after Lalloo's loot, Bihar had become a dry-sponge state. Any small working strategy for betterment is lapped up with great deal of acceptance. Nitish has scored and people ratified his good work there. I'm not sure if he's not corrupt and I think he's playing along... and also playing along democratically to get his work done. I'm sure Bihar can soak in a lot more and continue to grow at a quick pace.

Yet that takes nothing away for Modi's candidature. The HDI example was poor against Gujarat which is eons ahead of NorthIndian states. Any dry-sponge state will do better even with marginal human development improvements. The India-USA example was presented just to make this point.

If Modi's economic policies are made to appear steller then say congrats to his marketing team. Modi's Gujarat is still in top 3 in all aspects.

The charts on this thread are good, the effort was nice, but that's all there it is.

by Idéfix Mon Jul 29, 2013 2:14 pm

southindian wrote:The HDI example was poor against Gujarat which is eons ahead of NorthIndian states. Any dry-sponge state will do better even with marginal human development improvements. The India-USA example was presented just to make this point.

I understand why you are ignoring this post: https://such.forumotion.com/t14803p150-gujarat-gdp-growth-and-narendra-modi-s-economic-record#114401

India and the US are not comparable on HDI. Karnataka, Gujarat, Maharashtra, and Tamil Nadu are very much comparable on HDI. Gujarat performed the worst of those four, achieving the least absolute HDI improvement and least percentage HDI improvement.

by southindian Mon Jul 29, 2013 3:02 pm

Idéfix wrote:
southindian wrote:The HDI example was poor against Gujarat which is eons ahead of NorthIndian states. Any dry-sponge state will do better even with marginal human development improvements. The India-USA example was presented just to make this point.
I understand why you are ignoring this post: https://such.forumotion.com/t14803p150-gujarat-gdp-growth-and-narendra-modi-s-economic-record#114401

India and the US are not comparable on HDI. Karnataka, Gujarat, Maharashtra, and Tamil Nadu are very much comparable on HDI. Gujarat performed the worst of those four, achieving the least absolute HDI improvement and least percentage HDI improvement.

Nope, the charts are nice but taking focus away from Gujarat's economic growth. A trip across Gujarat should help.

I googled and found self-interest group links on HDI, both in favor and against Gujarat. I could have posted one and let you post others, but none show Modi in good or bad light. Gujarat is 11th in the list for 2011 behind M and T and ahead of K.

If you find any NorthIndian state perform better in percentage HDI improvement compared to SouthIndian states then that high HDI change is reflected through marginal HDI improvements.

Sorry, I'm not here to argue Modi over the difference between Maharashtra's .572 and Gujarat's .527

7	Maharashtra	0.572
8	Tamil Nadu	0.570
9	Haryana	0.552
10	Jammu and Kashmir	0.529
11	Gujarat	0.527
12	Karnataka	0.519

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Indian_states_and_territories_by_Human_Development_Index

PS: I have already appreciated the effort in putting charts on this thread.

by Idéfix Mon Jul 29, 2013 3:15 pm

southindian wrote:
Idéfix wrote:
southindian wrote:The HDI example was poor against Gujarat which is eons ahead of NorthIndian states. Any dry-sponge state will do better even with marginal human development improvements. The India-USA example was presented just to make this point.
I understand why you are ignoring this post: https://such.forumotion.com/t14803p150-gujarat-gdp-growth-and-narendra-modi-s-economic-record#114401

India and the US are not comparable on HDI. Karnataka, Gujarat, Maharashtra, and Tamil Nadu are very much comparable on HDI. Gujarat performed the worst of those four, achieving the least absolute HDI improvement and least percentage HDI improvement.
Nope, the charts are nice but taking focus away from Gujarat's economic growth. A trip across Gujarat should help.

I googled and found self-interest group links on HDI, both in favor and against Gujarat. I could have posted one and let you post others, but none show Modi in good or bad light. Gujarat is 11th in the list for 2011 behind M and T and ahead of K.

If you find any NorthIndian state perform better in percentage HDI improvement compared to SouthIndian states then that high HDI change is reflected through marginal HDI improvements.

Sorry, I'm not here to argue Modi over the difference between Maharashtra's .572 and Gujarat's .527

7 Maharashtra 0.572
8 Tamil Nadu 0.570
9 Haryana 0.552
10 Jammu and Kashmir 0.529
11 Gujarat 0.527
12 Karnataka 0.519

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Indian_states_and_territories_by_Human_Development_Index

PS: I have already appreciated the effort in putting charts on this thread.

You should post whatever additional info you have on HDI. The numbers you posted above are no different from those in my chart:
Gujarat GDP growth and Narendra Modi's economic record - Page 4 Captur30

It is clear from the chart that Gujarat has underperformed relative to its comparable peers.

by Seva Lamberdar Tue Jul 30, 2013 7:25 am

"the charts are nice but taking focus away from Gujarat's economic growth. A trip across Gujarat should help." southindian

>>> True. These charts and figures mean nothing and don't show the real picture of wealth distribution among people.

The figures (and corresponding charts) may show higher distribution of wealth (per head) among people (calculated by dividing the total income / wealth / earnings in the state by the total number of people), but in reality the wealth / earnings might be concentrated in the hands of a small group of people or political families (leaders) in the state. Naturally, most of people in that case will have less money to spend and live on, whereas a small group of people (political leaders and a few others) will have a plenty.

As is known from the media reports and articles, the distribution of state's earnings / income in TN, even if higher than Gujarat, seems to be more disproportionate (wealth concentrated in the hands of a limited political group / families) than in Gujarat where big industries etc. are not known to be in the hands of or managed by politicians or their family members.

by Captain Bhankas Tue Jul 30, 2013 8:10 am

Jebediah Mburuburu wrote:
goodcitizn wrote:
Congress has faired very poorly in all respects over the past few years,...
"fared," not "faired."

philip kuruvilla - "hello"
911 - "hello. this is 911."
philip kuruvilla - "i have neutralized an error attack a minute ago."
911 - "please confirm your location."
philip kuruvilla - "irrelevant!"
911 - "what? sir, please confirm your location."
philip kuruvilla - "access denied!"
911 - "what? access?"
philip kuruvilla - "yes. access to The Other Thing."
911 - "SIR, I WANT YOU TO CONFIRM YOUR LOCATION!"
philip kuruvilla - "see hash hash below. you are angry. you are upset."

click

by Merlot Daruwala Tue Jul 30, 2013 8:32 am

Captain Bhankas wrote:
Jebediah Mburuburu wrote:
goodcitizn wrote:
Congress has faired very poorly in all respects over the past few years,...
"fared," not "faired."

philip kuruvilla - "hello"
911 - "hello. this is 911."
philip kuruvilla - "i have neutralized an error attack a minute ago."
911 - "please confirm your location."
philip kuruvilla - "irrelevant!"
911 - "what? sir, please confirm your location."
philip kuruvilla - "access denied!"
911 - "what? access?"
philip kuruvilla - "yes. access to The Other Thing."
911 - "SIR, I WANT YOU TO CONFIRM YOUR LOCATION!"
philip kuruvilla - "see hash hash below. you are angry. you are upset."

click

by southindian Tue Jul 30, 2013 8:36 am

Captain Bhankas wrote:
Jebediah Mburuburu wrote:
goodcitizn wrote:
Congress has faired very poorly in all respects over the past few years,...
"fared," not "faired."

philip kuruvilla - "hello"
911 - "hello. this is 911."
philip kuruvilla - "i have neutralized an error attack a minute ago."
911 - "please confirm your location."
philip kuruvilla - "irrelevant!"
911 - "what? sir, please confirm your location."
philip kuruvilla - "access denied!"
911 - "what? access?"
philip kuruvilla - "yes. access to The Other Thing."
911 - "SIR, I WANT YOU TO CONFIRM YOUR LOCATION!"
philip kuruvilla - "see hash hash below. you are angry. you are upset."

click

by Idéfix Tue Jul 30, 2013 3:41 pm

Seva Lamberdar wrote:"the charts are nice but taking focus away from Gujarat's economic growth. A trip across Gujarat should help." southindian

>>> True. These charts and figures mean nothing and don't show the real picture of wealth distribution among people.

Sevaji, we know your well-established method for determining something to be true, and then rejecting everything that contradicts what you have pre-established as true. Data-driven discussions are not compatible with that excellent method.

by Idéfix Tue Jul 30, 2013 3:42 pm

Captain Bhankas wrote:
Jebediah Mburuburu wrote:
goodcitizn wrote:
Congress has faired very poorly in all respects over the past few years,...
"fared," not "faired."

philip kuruvilla - "hello"
911 - "hello. this is 911."
philip kuruvilla - "i have neutralized an error attack a minute ago."
911 - "please confirm your location."
philip kuruvilla - "irrelevant!"
911 - "what? sir, please confirm your location."
philip kuruvilla - "access denied!"
911 - "what? access?"
philip kuruvilla - "yes. access to The Other Thing."
911 - "SIR, I WANT YOU TO CONFIRM YOUR LOCATION!"
philip kuruvilla - "see hash hash below. you are angry. you are upset."

click

Hahaha, funniest post in this thread!

by Seva Lamberdar Tue Jul 30, 2013 5:02 pm

Idéfix wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:"the charts are nice but taking focus away from Gujarat's economic growth. A trip across Gujarat should help." southindian

>>> True. These charts and figures mean nothing and don't show the real picture of wealth distribution among people.
Sevaji, we know your well-established method for determining something to be true, and then rejecting everything that contradicts what you have pre-established as true. Data-driven discussions are not compatible with that excellent method.

Here is an example that a high national per capita income on paper can be quite misleading.
Several decades ago, one of the OPEC member nations showed a substantially high per capita income for its citizens. Outsiders thought that people by and large in that country must be doing well and progressing nicely.
But, in reality, things were quite bleak for majority of people. Most of the ordinary citizens were living from hand to mouth and had to manage things with the help of poorly maintained public facilities and infrastructure, while almost ¾ of the national income from natural resources (oil etc.) went into the personal accounts of top few families through their personally owned corporations and companies.
As for the infrastructure, schools and colleges etc. in that country, these seemed to be established and maintained by the rulers primarily to educate and train people (locals) at the basic / apprenticeship level (without high degrees etc.) so that there would be sufficient manpower available locally and cheaply to work in their companies and other outfits.

by Idéfix Tue Jul 30, 2013 5:13 pm

Sevaji, I am sure there must be an Indian state that gets most of its income from petrodollars that are pocketed by its ruling family that I am comparing Gujarat to that set off this train of thought in your head. Pardon my ignorance for I am unable to figure out whether it is Maharashtra, Karnataka, or Tamil Nadu.

by Propagandhi711 Tue Jul 30, 2013 5:26 pm

Captain Bhankas wrote:
Jebediah Mburuburu wrote:
goodcitizn wrote:
Congress has faired very poorly in all respects over the past few years,...
"fared," not "faired."

philip kuruvilla - "hello"
911 - "hello. this is 911."
philip kuruvilla - "i have neutralized an error attack a minute ago."
911 - "please confirm your location."
philip kuruvilla - "irrelevant!"
911 - "what? sir, please confirm your location."
philip kuruvilla - "access denied!"
911 - "what? access?"
philip kuruvilla - "yes. access to The Other Thing."
911 - "SIR, I WANT YOU TO CONFIRM YOUR LOCATION!"
philip kuruvilla - "see hash hash below. you are angry. you are upset."

click

ROTFLMAEDONGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG

by Seva Lamberdar Tue Jul 30, 2013 5:58 pm

Idéfix wrote:Sevaji, I am sure there must be an Indian state that gets most of its income from petrodollars that are pocketed by its ruling family that I am comparing Gujarat to that set off this train of thought in your head. Pardon my ignorance for I am unable to figure out whether it is Maharashtra, Karnataka, or Tamil Nadu.

Have you wondered about the family members and friends of the so-called political dynasties owning completely or having the majority shares in important companies nationally or in the state, including in the communications and broadcasting sectors etc.?

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