Modi's Telugu

by Vakavaka Pakapaka Sun Aug 11, 2013 9:45 am

Modi starts his campaign in Hyderabad.

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/congress-a-burden-on-india-time-has-come-to-end-its-misrule-modi/413471-62-127.html

by Guest Sun Aug 11, 2013 9:55 am

Lol@his telugul. Very Happy

May the telangana ppl kick the butt of Sonia and Rahul real hard and vote Modi for PM. That should teach Sonia a lesson.

May the aversion for Sonia turn into support for Modi in the Seemandhra region and may his popularity grow in leaps and bounds there.

Modi for PM! Sonia hai hai!

by truthbetold Sun Aug 11, 2013 10:07 am

Kinnera,
Confused by your logic.
Sonia and rahul declared t state. You are angry. Clear.
Bjp started small state nonsense and was the biggest source of support to t state in t area and more importantly in parliament.
Modi ' s party was responsible for the current mess as much as Sonia. Why should seemandhra people even allow Modi to step on their soil?
Why should bjp receive even a single vote in seemandhra?

by MaxEntropy_Man Sun Aug 11, 2013 10:08 am

kinnera wrote:Lol@his telugul.

modi's bootlicker cho ramaswamy invited him to chennai and had him address a crowd a few years back. his unctuous attempt at sucking up to the crowd in tamil made me want to throw up. TN will never vote for him.

by Guest Sun Aug 11, 2013 10:11 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
kinnera wrote:Lol@his telugul.
modi's bootlicker cho ramaswamy invited him to chennai and had him address a crowd a few years back. his unctuous attempt at sucking up to the crowd in tamil made me want to throw up. TN will never vote for him.

So you'd rather have him address the crowd in Chennai in Hindi?

by MaxEntropy_Man Sun Aug 11, 2013 10:11 am

the best strategy for both parties is to not suggest a PM candidate ahead of the elections. both rahul gandhi and modi are highly dislikable

by MaxEntropy_Man Sun Aug 11, 2013 10:13 am

kinnera wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
kinnera wrote:Lol@his telugul.
modi's bootlicker cho ramaswamy invited him to chennai and had him address a crowd a few years back. his unctuous attempt at sucking up to the crowd in tamil made me want to throw up. TN will never vote for him.
So you'd rather have him address the crowd in Chennai in Hindi?

his english horrible as it is, is better than his tamil. so two choices -- address them in english, or address them in hindi and have a translator at hand to translate into tamil or english. i'd rather not have him come to chennai at all, but that's just me. my parents disagree with me.

by Guest Sun Aug 11, 2013 10:14 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:the best strategy for both parties is to not suggest a PM candidate ahead of the elections. both rahul gandhi and modi are highly dislikable to me

corrected.

Who's the best candidate according to you? Chidambaram? Puke! He's another cunning sucker to Sonia.

by Guest Sun Aug 11, 2013 10:17 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
kinnera wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
kinnera wrote:Lol@his telugul.
modi's bootlicker cho ramaswamy invited him to chennai and had him address a crowd a few years back. his unctuous attempt at sucking up to the crowd in tamil made me want to throw up. TN will never vote for him.
So you'd rather have him address the crowd in Chennai in Hindi?
his english horrible as it is, is better than his tamil. so two choices -- address them in english, or address them in hindi and have a translator at hand to translate into tamil or english. i'd rather not have him come to chennai at all, but that's just me. my parents disagree with me.

you talk indian politics when you call home?

by MaxEntropy_Man Sun Aug 11, 2013 10:18 am

Vidya Bagchi wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
kinnera wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
kinnera wrote:Lol@his telugul.
modi's bootlicker cho ramaswamy invited him to chennai and had him address a crowd a few years back. his unctuous attempt at sucking up to the crowd in tamil made me want to throw up. TN will never vote for him.
So you'd rather have him address the crowd in Chennai in Hindi?
his english horrible as it is, is better than his tamil. so two choices -- address them in english, or address them in hindi and have a translator at hand to translate into tamil or english. i'd rather not have him come to chennai at all, but that's just me. my parents disagree with me.
you talk indian politics when you call home?

why is that surprising to you? my father and i are constantly exchanging political email.

by Guest Sun Aug 11, 2013 10:21 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
kinnera wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
kinnera wrote:Lol@his telugul.
modi's bootlicker cho ramaswamy invited him to chennai and had him address a crowd a few years back. his unctuous attempt at sucking up to the crowd in tamil made me want to throw up. TN will never vote for him.
So you'd rather have him address the crowd in Chennai in Hindi?
his english horrible as it is, is better than his tamil. so two choices -- address them in english, or address them in hindi and have a translator at hand to translate into tamil or english. i'd rather not have him come to chennai at all, but that's just me. my parents disagree with me.

Ya, that's you. I agree with your parents if they are of the opposite view as you. I think it's better that the central ministers or whoever who visit different states, address the ppl in their own language in their respective regions. It may not sound perfect, but it can be followed by the maximum number of ppl in the crowd. Having them talk in either hindi or english and have the translators translate into the local language would seem like the foreign missionaries giving their sermon in english to the indian crowd and the local translators translating that to the local language. Horrendous!
Pls let the leaders make an effort to at lease read the local language when visiting different states. Let other leaders emulate Modi and follow suit. That would actually be a good change.

by MaxEntropy_Man Sun Aug 11, 2013 10:23 am

the disagreement was about his coming to chennai. i am not sure they have any strong views about what language he converses in. in any case he only spoke for a little while in tamil. the rest of his address was in his insufferable english.

by Guest Sun Aug 11, 2013 10:25 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:the disagreement was about his coming to chennai. i am not sure they have any strong views about what language he converses in.

You don't want him to visit Chennai? Rolling Eyes

by confuzzled dude Sun Aug 11, 2013 10:44 am

Not bad at all. He did his home work, only caveat is he spoke in Andhra dialect and how is that gonna help BJP in 'T"? what was Kishan Reddy thinking.

by Vakavaka Pakapaka Sun Aug 11, 2013 10:54 am

kinnera wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:the disagreement was about his coming to chennai. i am not sure they have any strong views about what language he converses in.
You don't want him to visit Chennai?

In general, among secularists in India, opposing Modi and being lenient towards Muslims are a sign of being an intellectual. This trend will subside as the new generation looking for jobs and prosperity, comes of age. In the US, democrat or republican, people are proud of America and if a single American soldier is beheaded the way an Indian soldier is by Pakis, they will come together and plan severe retribution (unlike fukular scholars in India who will endlessly debate on how to de-link terrorism and have a dialogue with PakiSatanis).

Sikular fukularism will someday be thrown into the dustbin.

by Vakavaka Pakapaka Sun Aug 11, 2013 11:11 am

kinnera wrote:Lol@his telugul.

May the telangana ppl kick the butt of Sonia and Rahul real hard and vote Modi for PM. That should teach Sonia a lesson.

May the aversion for Sonia turn into support for Modi in the Seemandhra region and may his popularity grow in leaps and bounds there.

Modi for PM! Sonia hai hai!

With his Telugu, Modi will be very popular in Hyderabad, Adilabad, etc.

by confuzzled dude Sun Aug 11, 2013 11:15 am

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote: In general, among secularists in India, opposing Modi and being lenient towards Muslims are a sign of being an intellectual. This trend will subside as the new generation looking for jobs and prosperity, comes of age. In the US, democrat or republican, people are proud of America and if a single American soldier is beheaded the way an Indian soldier is by Pakis, they will come together and plan severe retribution (unlike fukular scholars in India who will endlessly debate on how to de-link terrorism and have a dialogue with PakiSatanis).

Sikular fukularism will someday be thrown into the dustbin.

such as Vietnam war, Irag war!? and in due course fuck future generations of America royally

by Guest Sun Aug 11, 2013 11:17 am

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:
kinnera wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:the disagreement was about his coming to chennai. i am not sure they have any strong views about what language he converses in.
You don't want him to visit Chennai?
In general, among secularists in India, opposing Modi and being lenient towards Muslims are a sign of being an intellectual.

Yeah, these very ppl don't say word about the sikh riots where Rajeev Gandhi and his cong cronies are accused of inciting them. 3000 sikhs died, but you know what? that's ok. As long as they are not muslims and as long as the ones who incited them are 'secularists', that's ok. Hypocricy!

by Vakavaka Pakapaka Sun Aug 11, 2013 11:18 am

confuzzled dude wrote:
Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote: In general, among secularists in India, opposing Modi and being lenient towards Muslims are a sign of being an intellectual. This trend will subside as the new generation looking for jobs and prosperity, comes of age. In the US, democrat or republican, people are proud of America and if a single American soldier is beheaded the way an Indian soldier is by Pakis, they will come together and plan severe retribution (unlike fukular scholars in India who will endlessly debate on how to de-link terrorism and have a dialogue with PakiSatanis).

Sikular fukularism will someday be thrown into the dustbin.
such as Vietnam war, Irag war!? and in due course fuck future generations of America royally

And, send man to moon, be first in science & technology, win Nobel prizes and get rid of bin Lavden.

by SomeProfile Sun Aug 11, 2013 2:06 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
kinnera wrote:Lol@his telugul.
modi's bootlicker cho ramaswamy invited him to chennai and had him address a crowd a few years back. his unctuous attempt at sucking up to the crowd in tamil made me want to throw up. TN will never vote for him.

This is like saying TN will never vote for Barack Obama. What nonsense!

by SomeProfile Sun Aug 11, 2013 2:17 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:the best strategy for both parties is to not suggest a PM candidate ahead of the elections. both rahul gandhi and modi are highly dislikable

Hyderabad / AP is not a stronghold of BJP. Yet, BJP managed to get lakhs of people in Hyderabad to attend the political speech even after charging a registration fee! There was more demand for entry than there was space. Why is that so? Only one reason: Modi.

When was the last time lakhs of people paid to go watch a politician speak in India? It's usually the opposite. People are paid to fill the seats at political rallies. Modi is an unprecedented phenomenon in independent India. Whatever your dislike of him might be, why is it so hard to acknowledge hard facts?

The fact is that, Modi is managing to pull significant numbers of swing voters / potential voters. So, it is absolutely the best strategy for BJP to declare him as the PM candidate. It energizes their base and it pulls in swing voters. And those who are alienated by it? Most of them - like yourself - would have never voted for the BJP anyway, regardless of who the PM candidate is. So any loss of the miniscule alienated people is more than made up for by the gain.

So, yes, it's absolutely the best strategy for the BJP to declare Modi as their PM candidate ahead of the national elections, and they will. The only question now is whether to do so before or after the upcoming state elections in a few states.

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Sun Aug 11, 2013 2:19 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
kinnera wrote:Lol@his telugul.
modi's bootlicker cho ramaswamy invited him to chennai and had him address a crowd a few years back. his unctuous attempt at sucking up to the crowd in tamil made me want to throw up. TN will never vote for him.

Have you seen Indira talk? (I am pretty sure not). What do you think of Indira sucking up to Madrassis with her Tamil. She promised to learn Thamizh in 1978 as she was out of power and had plenty of time. Did she learn (any Thamizh?).

by confuzzled dude Sun Aug 11, 2013 10:53 pm

SomeProfile wrote:Hyderabad / AP is not a stronghold of BJP. Yet, BJP managed to get lakhs of people in Hyderabad to attend the political speech even after charging a registration fee! There was more demand for entry than there was space. Why is that so? Only one reason: Modi.

When was the last time lakhs of people paid to go watch a politician speak in India? It's usually the opposite. People are paid to fill the seats at political rallies. Modi is an unprecedented phenomenon in independent India. Whatever your dislike of him might be, why is it so hard to acknowledge hard facts?

The fact is that, Modi is managing to pull significant numbers of swing voters / potential voters. So, it is absolutely the best strategy for BJP to declare him as the PM candidate. It energizes their base and it pulls in swing voters. And those who are alienated by it? Most of them - like yourself - would have never voted for the BJP anyway, regardless of who the PM candidate is. So any loss of the miniscule alienated people is more than made up for by the gain.

So, yes, it's absolutely the best strategy for the BJP to declare Modi as their PM candidate ahead of the national elections, and they will. The only question now is whether to do so before or after the upcoming state elections in a few states.

That's right. In the '80s, Vajpayee used to pull huge crowds too (in Hyd), people flocked to hear his speeches but they seldom translated into votes, if filled seats was reliable indicator PRP would've garnered majority seats & Chiranjeevi would've been A.P CM

by MaxEntropy_Man Sun Aug 11, 2013 11:05 pm

lots of wet dreams and night emissions about modi in this thread. so many are going to be so disappointed.

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Sun Aug 11, 2013 11:14 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:lots of wet dreams and night emissions about modi in this thread. so many are going to be so disappointed.

I dont think anyone here is dreaming about a Modi win. If he consolidates BJP and establishes a FIRM direction that in itself is a huge accomplishment. He might win it for BJP in 2019 or 2024.

Only the PiSS and ISP members are dreaming about CONmen and Rahul baba and even Priyanka and who knows even Vadra.

by MaxEntropy_Man Sun Aug 11, 2013 11:20 pm

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:

Only the PiSS and ISP members are dreaming about CONmen and Rahul baba and even Priyanka and who knows even Vadra.

i don't know of anyone on this board who is a supporter of the nehru-fake gandhi family. opposition to narendra modi is not unqualified support for the dynasty. i know what your next question is -- who is my candidate? i prefer someone whose name doesn't end in gandhi or modi. if that means accepting chidambaram until a truly independent and non-polarizing candidate emerges, then so be it.

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Sun Aug 11, 2013 11:26 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:

Only the PiSS and ISP members are dreaming about CONmen and Rahul baba and even Priyanka and who knows even Vadra.
i don't know of anyone on this board who is a supporter of the nehru-fake gandhi family. opposition to narendra modi is not unqualified support for the dynasty. i know what your next question is -- who is my candidate? i prefer someone whose name doesn't end in gandhi or modi. if that means accepting chidambaram until a truly independent and non-polarizing candidate emerges, then so be it.

Unfortunately, that is not the way indian parliamentary system works. It is not Chidambaram, Mad Mohan Singh or MT Sonia Mata or Modi.

It is BJP or CON and their representatives is all you have. Congress would not say who the PM will be until after the election - unlike in 2009. Perhaps, even BJP might not. You can vote BJP or the High Command....or VCK... Razz

by MaxEntropy_Man Sun Aug 11, 2013 11:29 pm

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:

Only the PiSS and ISP members are dreaming about CONmen and Rahul baba and even Priyanka and who knows even Vadra.
i don't know of anyone on this board who is a supporter of the nehru-fake gandhi family. opposition to narendra modi is not unqualified support for the dynasty. i know what your next question is -- who is my candidate? i prefer someone whose name doesn't end in gandhi or modi. if that means accepting chidambaram until a truly independent and non-polarizing candidate emerges, then so be it.
Unfortunately, that is not the way indian parliamentary system works. It is not Chidambaram, Mad Mohan Singh or MT Sonia Mata or Modi.

It is BJP or CON and their representatives is all you have. Congress would not say who the PM will be until after the election - unlike in 2009. Perhaps, even BJP might not. You can vote BJP or the High Command....or VCK...

i know that we have the parliamentary system, but this election like it or not is already playing out as a referendum on modi and rahul gandhi.

by confuzzled dude Sun Aug 11, 2013 11:39 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:Unfortunately, that is not the way indian parliamentary system works. It is not Chidambaram, Mad Mohan Singh or MT Sonia Mata or Modi.

It is BJP or CON and their representatives is all you have. Congress would not say who the PM will be until after the election - unlike in 2009. Perhaps, even BJP might not. You can vote BJP or the High Command....or VCK...
i know that we have the parliamentary system, but this election like it or not is already playing out as a referendum on modi and rahul gandhi.

Wonder who Kannadigas would vote in centre, will they treat Lok Sabha election different from Assembly or are they really sick and tired of BJP"s antics. I'm not sure BJP can repeat their '09 performance in KA.

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Mon Aug 12, 2013 12:08 am

confuzzled dude wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:Unfortunately, that is not the way indian parliamentary system works. It is not Chidambaram, Mad Mohan Singh or MT Sonia Mata or Modi.

It is BJP or CON and their representatives is all you have. Congress would not say who the PM will be until after the election - unlike in 2009. Perhaps, even BJP might not. You can vote BJP or the High Command....or VCK...
i know that we have the parliamentary system, but this election like it or not is already playing out as a referendum on modi and rahul gandhi.
Wonder who Kannadigas would vote in centre, will they treat Lok Sabha election different from Assembly or are they really sick and tired of BJP"s antics. I'm not sure BJP can repeat their '09 performance in KA.

All it takes is for MT sonia Mata ji to come and utter a couple of Kannada words and claim to be their daughter and ask them to vote for indiramma ....:p

and all those guys will fall for it. After all Indiramma picked Chikmagalur and medak for a reason.

BJP will lose big time.

by truthbetold Mon Aug 12, 2013 6:19 am

Bjp will lose in karnataka big time. Deservedly so.
Congress should be swept off the map in ap. I would tolerate a jagan sweep or a combined sweep by tdp and jagan in seemandhra. Any jagan representative will eventually join mother ship after electoral battle. But a seemandhra Congress loss would still send a message to Sonia on how to handle people's problems in a statesmen like manner.

by indophile Mon Aug 12, 2013 12:03 pm

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:Modi starts his campaign in Hyderabad.

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/congress-a-burden-on-india-time-has-come-to-end-its-misrule-modi/413471-62-127.html

He sounds like Chandrababu Naidu.

by Idéfix Mon Aug 12, 2013 12:03 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:i don't know of anyone on this board who is a supporter of the nehru-fake gandhi family.

I wouldn't go that far myself. In my opinion, people who have expressed opinions against Modi here can be placed on a continuous scale by their degree of opposition to the Royal Family. I don't think anyone here is an enthusiastic supporter, but at least a couple of people may be willing to support the Family while recognizing its shortcomings.

by goodcitizn Mon Aug 12, 2013 2:00 pm

Idéfix wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:i don't know of anyone on this board who is a supporter of the nehru-fake gandhi family.
I wouldn't go that far myself. In my opinion, people who have expressed opinions against Modi here can be placed on a continuous scale by their degree of opposition to the Royal Family. I don't think anyone here is an enthusiastic supporter, but at least a couple of people may be willing to support the Family while recognizing its shortcomings.

I dislike Congress. I dislike BJP. I know that it will end up being a coalition with one of these two heading it in 2014. The system will continue to be corrupt. I feel bad for aam aadmi.

by Idéfix Mon Aug 12, 2013 2:00 pm

I listened to the first two Telugu sentences Modi spoke, and had to give up because it is highly cringe-inducing. I don't know why northerners find it so difficult to articulate Telugu when they have it written for them in nAgari. If they articulate every vowel that is written, including the a sounds, they will sound pretty close to native speakers of Telugu. But most northerners, including non-Hindians like Modi, seem to struggle with this concept. I did not realize before now that Gujaratis also swallow the a sounds like Hindians do.

by smArtha Mon Aug 12, 2013 3:29 pm

Idéfix wrote:I listened to the first two Telugu sentences Modi spoke, and had to give up because it is highly cringe-inducing. I don't know why northerners find it so difficult to articulate Telugu when they have it written for them in nAgari. If they articulate every vowel that is written, including the a sounds, they will sound pretty close to native speakers of Telugu. But most northerners, including non-Hindians like Modi, seem to struggle with this concept. I did not realize before now that Gujaratis also swallow the a sounds like Hindians do.

An interesting observation, I made a few years ago, on a random sample of temple visiting folks is that most 'Hindians' struggled to read 'Sanskrit' prose written in dEva nAgari as opposed to the Telugu or Kannadigas who learnt the script as second language. And I'm not even talking of just the vowel ending sounds. Just about any word that was 4 or more characters they struggled. I thought, it should be considerably easy for them to read it given the script is the same.

by indophile Mon Aug 12, 2013 3:36 pm

smArtha wrote:
Idéfix wrote:I listened to the first two Telugu sentences Modi spoke, and had to give up because it is highly cringe-inducing. I don't know why northerners find it so difficult to articulate Telugu when they have it written for them in nAgari. If they articulate every vowel that is written, including the a sounds, they will sound pretty close to native speakers of Telugu. But most northerners, including non-Hindians like Modi, seem to struggle with this concept. I did not realize before now that Gujaratis also swallow the a sounds like Hindians do.
An interesting observation, I made a few years ago, on a random sample of temple visiting folks is that most 'Hindians' struggled to read 'Sanskrit' prose written in dEva nAgari as opposed to the Telugu or Kannadigas who learnt the script as second language. And I'm not even talking of just the vowel ending sounds. Just about any word that was 4 or more characters they struggled. I thought, it should be considerably easy for them to read it given the script is the same.

May be convent-edicated folks. I have some relatives' kids from Vizag (the potential future capital of SA) who can't read Telugu: Smile

by Idéfix Mon Aug 12, 2013 3:55 pm

smArtha wrote:
Idéfix wrote:I listened to the first two Telugu sentences Modi spoke, and had to give up because it is highly cringe-inducing. I don't know why northerners find it so difficult to articulate Telugu when they have it written for them in nAgari. If they articulate every vowel that is written, including the a sounds, they will sound pretty close to native speakers of Telugu. But most northerners, including non-Hindians like Modi, seem to struggle with this concept. I did not realize before now that Gujaratis also swallow the a sounds like Hindians do.
An interesting observation, I made a few years ago, on a random sample of temple visiting folks is that most 'Hindians' struggled to read 'Sanskrit' prose written in dEva nAgari as opposed to the Telugu or Kannadigas who learnt the script as second language. And I'm not even talking of just the vowel ending sounds. Just about any word that was 4 or more characters they struggled. I thought, it should be considerably easy for them to read it given the script is the same.

Yeah, you are on to something there; it is not just the vowel-ending words where Modi trips up. In fact, most of the words in the speech written for him were Sanskrit-derived tatsamas and tadbhavas.

I wonder why this happens. Formal Hindi -- at least the Doordarshan / BR Chopra's Mahabharata variety of it -- does have long Sanskrit words. And I never noticed a difference in the complexity of words between spoken Hindi and spoken Telugu. Perhaps northern languages have more of what would qualify as vikruti forms of words in Telugu grammar.

Another interesting, admittedly tangential hypothesis that might explain this... the southern languages interacted with Sanskrit, a formalized, mostly-grAndhika language but never a vyAvaharikam for any large population, and picked up those formal words. Whereas in the north, the so-called prAkrits (the natural languages from which Panini invented formal Sanskrit) continued to evolve to produce the current northern languages. Those languages did not evolve from or exchange words with Sanskrit, but Sanskrit itself was a formalized subset of those natural languages of northern India. So perhaps those languages never quite absorbed the formal complexity of Sanskrit.

by smArtha Mon Aug 12, 2013 6:36 pm

Idéfix wrote:Another interesting, admittedly tangential hypothesis that might explain this... the southern languages interacted with Sanskrit, a formalized, mostly-grAndhika language but never a vyAvaharikam for any large population, and picked up those formal words. Whereas in the north, the so-called prAkrits (the natural languages from which Panini invented formal Sanskrit) continued to evolve to produce the current northern languages. Those languages did not evolve from or exchange words with Sanskrit, but Sanskrit itself was a formalized subset of those natural languages of northern India. So perhaps those languages never quite absorbed the formal complexity of Sanskrit.

It is possible that the evolution of 'prAkrit' languages well past the vEdic and classical sanskrit era is the cause for a NI Hindi speaker to have difficulty with Sanskrit.

the natural languages from which Panini invented formal Sanskrit

A relevant snippet from Wikipedia says "The deviations from Pāṇini in the epics are generally considered to be on account of interference from Prakrits, or "innovations" and not because they are pre-Paninean"

pANini may have accommodated some 'prAkrit' influences on the language, in his formalizing, but he didn't necessarily borrow from them. Sanskrit was, by tradition as well as all evidence so far, the first language to get a formal definition by way of sIksha and vyAkaraNam. pANini himself claims that he borrowed heavily from other 'vyAkaraNa karthas' before him. Besides, the sIksha and pratiSAkhya granthas associated with the vEdic texts already have quite some formalism about the language. Also, read about the Maheswara Sutras that inspired pANini's definitions and encoding.

but Sanskrit itself was a formalized subset of those natural languages of northern India.

Not true. For now, let me just claim - without elaborating further in this discussion - that sanskrit is an engineered language from the very fundamental sounds and forms of creation. It was engineered bottoms up from the basics of sounds and forms perceived in the creation - with a heavy tilt or bias towards the sounds and forms suitable to the human beings. And carefully built all the way to even arrive at poetic meters and what meters to be used for what purpose. More on this in future - in other discussions or threads as appropriate and as time permits. If you have time to do the research yourself I can start with two pointers - Maheswara Sutras and arrangement and classification of the sanskrit alphabet.

by Kayalvizhi Mon Aug 12, 2013 10:21 pm

>>> had begun his speech in Telugu before switching to Hindi.

These Hindian (Modi is a Gujarat Hindian) politicians come to south say a few memorized words in the local language and their supporters give thunderous applause. Nonsense.

This is discussed in depth in

Say a Word in Tamil and Listen to the Thunderous Applause from the Crowd

Here is a little excerpt
"Laloo Prasad Yadav is a Hindi chauvinist who, like most Hindi-belt politicians, wants Hindi to be the sole official language of India (in other words, everyone should learn Hindi; not a mere three words but a good working knowledge). If he is so eager about Tamil, would he end the discrimination of Tamils and other non-Hindi employees in Railways by forcing them to pass Hindi examinations? If all that takes is memorizing three words in a language, would the Railways Minister issue an order that anyone who could say three words in Hindi is deemed to be knowledgeable in Hindi and need not have to pass the required Hindi examinations"

I suggest tghe intelligent people here read the full article
http://www.tamiltribune.com/99/08e.html

by Kris Tue Aug 13, 2013 12:58 am

Idéfix wrote:I listened to the first two Telugu sentences Modi spoke, and had to give up because it is highly cringe-inducing. I don't know why northerners find it so difficult to articulate Telugu when they have it written for them in nAgari. If they articulate every vowel that is written, including the a sounds, they will sound pretty close to native speakers of Telugu. But most northerners, including non-Hindians like Modi, seem to struggle with this concept. I did not realize before now that Gujaratis also swallow the a sounds like Hindians do.

>>>>I don't know if you read the article about texting in India. One linguist ( I think) lauded it as being beneficial in that it equips students with the ability to differentiate between ashok and ashoka. Presumably, he was referring to folks who use hindi exclusively.

by Idéfix Tue Aug 13, 2013 11:42 am

Kris wrote:
Idéfix wrote:I listened to the first two Telugu sentences Modi spoke, and had to give up because it is highly cringe-inducing. I don't know why northerners find it so difficult to articulate Telugu when they have it written for them in nAgari. If they articulate every vowel that is written, including the a sounds, they will sound pretty close to native speakers of Telugu. But most northerners, including non-Hindians like Modi, seem to struggle with this concept. I did not realize before now that Gujaratis also swallow the a sounds like Hindians do.
>>>>I don't know if you read the article about texting in India. One linguist ( I think) lauded it as being beneficial in that it equips students with the ability to differentiate between ashok and ashoka. Presumably, he was referring to folks who use hindi exclusively.

Interesting, I need to find the article. It has to be about Hindians, I don't think southerners have this problem.

by Idéfix Tue Aug 13, 2013 11:53 am

smArtha wrote:A relevant snippet from Wikipedia says "The deviations from Pāṇini in the epics are generally considered to be on account of interference from Prakrits, or "innovations" and not because they are pre-Paninean"

pANini may have accommodated some 'prAkrit' influences on the language, in his formalizing, but he didn't necessarily borrow from them. Sanskrit was, by tradition as well as all evidence so far, the first language to get a formal definition by way of sIksha and vyAkaraNam. pANini himself claims that he borrowed heavily from other 'vyAkaraNa karthas' before him. Besides, the sIksha and pratiSAkhya granthas associated with the vEdic texts already have quite some formalism about the language. Also, read about the Maheswara Sutras that inspired pANini's definitions and encoding.

I will look into it. I was mostly speculating in my previous post.

smArtha wrote:
but Sanskrit itself was a formalized subset of those natural languages of northern India.

Not true. For now, let me just claim - without elaborating further in this discussion - that sanskrit is an engineered language from the very fundamental sounds and forms of creation. It was engineered bottoms up from the basics of sounds and forms perceived in the creation - with a heavy tilt or bias towards the sounds and forms suitable to the human beings. And carefully built all the way to even arrive at poetic meters and what meters to be used for what purpose. More on this in future - in other discussions or threads as appropriate and as time permits. If you have time to do the research yourself I can start with two pointers - Maheswara Sutras and arrangement and classification of the sanskrit alphabet.

I find that hard to believe, and here is why.

First, I don't buy the notion of "the very fundamental sounds and forms of creation." There are two reasons for that: (a) I don't buy the notion of a "creation," and (b) sound as we know it is not fundamental to the universe, and it occurs in an extremely tiny fraction of the known universe where there is an atmosphere to carry it around.

Second, even if there is such a thing as "the very fundamental sounds and forms of creation," I don't see why only the ancient Indians go to that insight, and when their insight became more widely known, others did not pick up on it if it is really that fundamental.

Finally, the idea of an "Intelligent Design" argument for Sanskrit -- if I may call it that -- militates against what we know about the evolution of human languages. Language does not come about when a bunch of really smart people sit together to design grammar, vocabulary, and prosody; it comes about in a more natural process of use and modification by users over several centuries. Am happy to discuss this in future threads as you indicated.

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