Guns Prevent Holocausts

by gone Wed Sep 18, 2013 2:39 pm

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6nf1OgV449g

See how this guy talks about soap and lampshades made out of six million Jews. Switzerland may not have an army, but every citizen is trained to defend him and herself. Every home has a gun. It has the lowest crime rate in the world. Compare that to France next door with strict gun control laws and generous welfare given to immigrants on welfare who have dozens of kids (most popular baby name in France today is Mohammed)

by gone Wed Sep 18, 2013 3:02 pm

This guy in the video, Marc Heim, is Jewish. Switzerland did not turn in one Jewish Swiss citizen to the Germans during the Holocaust. The Germans were afraid of invading a tiny country like Switzerland, without an army, because every citizen was armed. They did, however, invade a large country, France, with an army, because no one was armed. We know what happened to all the Jews in France. They became soap.

by MaxEntropy_Man Wed Sep 18, 2013 3:04 pm

if you want to talk about rate of deaths due to firearms, you should paint the complete picture:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

column three is homicides. you can click on it to arrange it in an ascending or descending order. the US's statistical neighbors are costa rica and uruguay. nearly all european countries and australia have strong gun control laws and have much lower gun homicides than the US.

the rate of gun homicides in france is 0.22 per 100,000. the US by contrast has 3.6 homicides per 100,000. that is a factor of sixteen greater than france. in percentage terms, the US has 1,536% greater gun homicides than france.

switzerland has a greater rate of gun homicides than france, 0.52 per 100,000 compared to 0.22 per 100,000 for france.

by gone Wed Sep 18, 2013 3:10 pm

Tsk tsk. As an academic, you should know better than to use Wikipedia as supporting evidence for anything. In any case, how many of these other countries have welfare mothers making dozens of babies to get a government check...it's their kids who end up becoming criminals. You might want to do some research on other countries' welfare policies.

by gone Wed Sep 18, 2013 3:12 pm

Also, want to add that Holland (no guns there) was neutral during WW2, just like Switzerland. However, Holland was invaded by the Germans. We all know Anne Frank was gassed to death in a gas chamber.

by MaxEntropy_Man Wed Sep 18, 2013 3:13 pm

i have no problem using wikipedia as long as the data are well sourced. the statistics in this wikipedia page are very well sourced. most of them come from a university of sydney public health study. australia in particular has a great record of going from a US like gun policy to a very restrictive policy and reaping the benefits.

many wikipedia pages are excellent references because they are refined by thousands of eyes.

by gone Wed Sep 18, 2013 3:15 pm

Riiiiiight. You should start putting Wiki tables in all your research.

by MaxEntropy_Man Wed Sep 18, 2013 3:18 pm

mainstreet wrote:Riiiiiight. You should start putting Wiki tables in all your research.

it's a great starting point. in fact wiki pages ARE the starting point for many in research. of course one goes to the original source of published references, but it's an excellent starting point.

but if you don't like the wiki page, you can refer to the original source, the university of sydney study. here is their repository of data:

http://www.gunpolicy.org/about

by MaxEntropy_Man Wed Sep 18, 2013 3:22 pm

here is an article in the journal nature comparing wikipedia and britannica:

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v438/n7070/full/438900a.html

by MaxEntropy_Man Wed Sep 18, 2013 3:26 pm

many discussions with gun advocates proceeds along line similar to the above. they'll start with how great things are in switzerland. then when the other side points out that things are much better elsewhere where there are stricter gun control policies, they'll change the goal post, question the statistics, deflect the discussion etc. mainstreet is no different.

by gone Wed Sep 18, 2013 3:26 pm

Sorry, not buying your causation = correlation theories...over-educated professors with zero common sense who have done nothing but study atoms who spend their boring life in an ivory tower should not talk out of their ass all day about other boring research done by equally boring academics who are removed from reality.

by MaxEntropy_Man Wed Sep 18, 2013 3:29 pm

mainstreet wrote:Sorry, not buying your causation = correlation theories...over-educated professors with zero common sense who have done nothing but study atoms who spend their boring life in an ivory tower should not talk out of their ass all day about other boring research done by equally boring academics who are removed from reality.

you are the one who contrasted switzerland and france. i was only pointing out that things are not how you pointed them out to be. when the data didn't support your claims you are resorting to personal attacks. very predictable.

by gone Wed Sep 18, 2013 3:31 pm

What a bunch of baloney. Anyone can get a gun at any time. Gun control or no gun control. Criminals will always find guns.

by Petrichor Wed Sep 18, 2013 3:33 pm

Angry. Upset. Plain bitter. Smile

by MaxEntropy_Man Wed Sep 18, 2013 3:36 pm

oh and only about forty or so countries have lower rates of gun homicides than switzerland.

by gone Wed Sep 18, 2013 3:36 pm

Not me. I'm glad my family lives in a country in which we all own at least one gun.

by Idéfix Wed Sep 18, 2013 3:38 pm

mainstreet wrote:Switzerland may not have an army, but every citizen is trained to defend him and herself. Every home has a gun. It has the lowest crime rate in the world. Compare that to France next door with strict gun control laws and generous welfare given to immigrants on welfare who have dozens of kids (most popular baby name in France today is Mohammed)

I like the Swiss model: proper military training is mandatory before you are allowed to keep a gun. Most of the guns are owned by the government, not individuals. Do you support similar laws in the US?

by gone Wed Sep 18, 2013 3:38 pm

You have a problem with gun ownership? Don't get one! It's sort of like abortion and gay marriage... Don't get an abortion or have a gay marriage if you have a problem with either.

by gone Wed Sep 18, 2013 3:39 pm

Just don't get yourself killed at an ATM machine. Or if someone invades your home.

by Idéfix Wed Sep 18, 2013 3:41 pm

mainstreet wrote:You have a problem with gun ownership? Don't get one! It's sort of like abortion and gay marriage... Don't get an abortion or have a gay marriage if you have a problem with either.

You talked about Switzerland first, not me. Do you want similar gun laws for the US?

by gone Wed Sep 18, 2013 3:41 pm

Maybe those 40 or so countries will be invaded and/or have another Holocaust someday if their citizens don't have any guns.

by MaxEntropy_Man Wed Sep 18, 2013 3:42 pm

mainstreet wrote:Maybe those 40 or so countries will be invaded and/or have another Holocaust someday if their citizens don't have any guns.

yeah sure.

by MaxEntropy_Man Wed Sep 18, 2013 3:51 pm

Idéfix wrote:
mainstreet wrote:You have a problem with gun ownership? Don't get one! It's sort of like abortion and gay marriage... Don't get an abortion or have a gay marriage if you have a problem with either.
You talked about Switzerland first, not me. Do you want similar gun laws for the US?

waiting.... waiting.....

by gone Wed Sep 18, 2013 3:51 pm

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/30/us/bay-area-thieves-seeking-gold-target-indian-americans.html?_r=0

http://www.indiatribune.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=7772:hit-by-robberies-home-invasions-indian-americans-turn-to-gun-training&catid=121:general-news&Itemid=410

https://www.baycitizen.org/columns/scott-james/silicon-valley-gold-thieves-target/?page=2

by gone Wed Sep 18, 2013 3:52 pm

http://m.phillyburbs.com/news/local/burlington_county_times_news/witness-we-targeted-indian-families-for-their-gold-and-jewelry/article_bc8ef258-7771-526e-90bc-cf88d6313651.html?mode=jqm

by Idéfix Wed Sep 18, 2013 3:59 pm

I think you should learn to copy-paste the contents of those news stories and highlight the relevant portions prominently. Then we will be all set.

by Propagandhi711 Wed Sep 18, 2013 4:06 pm

mainstreet wrote:This guy in the video, Marc Heim, is Jewish. Switzerland did not turn in one Jewish Swiss citizen to the Germans during the Holocaust. The Germans were afraid of invading a tiny country like Switzerland, without an army, because every citizen was armed. They did, however, invade a large country, France, with an army, because no one was armed. We know what happened to all the Jews in France. They became soap.

that's the dumbest fucking thing I;ve heard from you yet. the wehrmacht with it's heavy artillery forged from krupp steel were afraid of small arms and hunting rifles owned by swiss citizenry? accounting and arts majors shouldnt be allowed access to internet

by gone Wed Sep 18, 2013 4:23 pm

During World War 2, the Swiss had gunpower that was EQUAL to the Germans. The Swiss don't HAVE an army. They ARE an army.

The German army would have been decimated or at least suffered heavy casualties from Swiss citizens aiming at them at llong range from atop mountain ranges. Ever tried to climb a mountain to invade a country? Impossible!

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/nazis/readings/halbrook.html

http://www.lewrockwell.com/2008/07/bill-walker/they-didnt-attack-switzerland/

by gone Wed Sep 18, 2013 4:39 pm

Especially a country atop a mountain with EQUAL gunpower.

by gone Wed Sep 18, 2013 4:56 pm

Your Wiki link isn't even comparing apples to apples. It's comparing one country's 2009 gun homicide rate to another country's 2007 rate, another country's 2011 rate to another country's "mixed years" rates. There are statistics and there are lies.

by gone Wed Sep 18, 2013 4:59 pm

Besides, if a bunch of gang members and drug lords want to go around shooting at each other over turf, money, or whatever, I don't have a problem with that. It eliminates them from the gene pool.

by MaxEntropy_Man Wed Sep 18, 2013 6:34 pm

mainstreet wrote:Your Wiki link isn't even comparing apples to apples. It's comparing one country's 2009 gun homicide rate to another country's 2007 rate, another country's 2011 rate to another country's "mixed years" rates. There are statistics and there are lies.

in each case it's the year for which the latest data is available. unless you are expecting huge year to year changes, i don't see a problem. besides if you want to compare same year data, i am sure they are available in many cases. i don't see any fatal flaws in the basic argument i had put forth.

you on the other hand were perfectly willing to make arguments pulled out of thin air.

by MaxEntropy_Man Wed Sep 18, 2013 6:46 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
mainstreet wrote:Your Wiki link isn't even comparing apples to apples. It's comparing one country's 2009 gun homicide rate to another country's 2007 rate, another country's 2011 rate to another country's "mixed years" rates. There are statistics and there are lies.
in each case it's the year for which the latest data is available. unless you are expecting huge year to year changes, i don't see a problem. besides if you want to compare same year data, i am sure they are available in many cases. i don't see any fatal flaws in the basic argument i had put forth.

you on the other hand were perfectly willing to make arguments pulled out of thin air.

here for example are year over year data for the US: http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/united-states

similar data are available for all other countries. you can if you like compare same year data. you'll find that it changes nothing.

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Wed Sep 18, 2013 7:06 pm

mainstreet wrote:http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/30/us/bay-area-thieves-seeking-gold-target-indian-americans.html?_r=0

http://www.indiatribune.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=7772:hit-by-robberies-home-invasions-indian-americans-turn-to-gun-training&catid=121:general-news&Itemid=410

https://www.baycitizen.org/columns/scott-james/silicon-valley-gold-thieves-target/?page=2

This explains why Gold prices soar in India and the rupee slide. Thanks.

by Idéfix Wed Sep 18, 2013 7:28 pm

mainstreet wrote:Switzerland may not have an army, but every citizen is trained to defend him and herself. Every home has a gun. It has the lowest crime rate in the world. Compare that to France next door with strict gun control laws

Switzerland has 46 guns per 100 residents; France has 31. Guess how many the US has:
(a) between 31 and 46,
(b) between 47 and 60,
(c) between 61 and 90, or
(d) over 90

You like the crime rate in Switzerland and call that low. You attribute that to the high gun ownership rate. So will crime in the US improve to Swiss levels if we improve our gun ownership rate to be closer to Switzerland's?

PS: You will probably not respond, just like you ran away from the question about requirements for training as a condition for legally using guns in Switzerland. If you don't respond, I will post the US number of guns per 100 residents in a few hours.

by gone Wed Sep 18, 2013 7:41 pm

You can't conveniently take data from ONE year for research. You know that wouldn't give any credibility to any research paper. Besides, if this is data that is self-reported by countries, by government, then sorry, ZERO credibility.

by gone Wed Sep 18, 2013 7:45 pm

Where's your research for over many years? Trends over decades? Correlation after/by controlling all other causes (illegal immigration, crime targeted toward immigrants, crime by immigrants, the economy in a certain year, etc.)

by gone Wed Sep 18, 2013 7:47 pm

How about guns per household instead of per 100 residents? That can show a completely different picture, Know-It-All.

by gone Wed Sep 18, 2013 7:49 pm

How about showing your sources of data too, Know-It-All? You know you sound really ignorant for someone with an MBA/PhD, whatever... You wouldn't go to your boss with such crappy research now, would you?

by Petrichor Wed Sep 18, 2013 8:26 pm

http://www.amjmed.com/webfiles/images/journals/ajm/AJM12080.pdf

by Idéfix Wed Sep 18, 2013 8:26 pm

I still don't see an answer from you. I will share my source for the data when I post the correct answer. In the meanwhile, keep taking wild swings.

by Idéfix Wed Sep 18, 2013 8:29 pm

Petrichor wrote:http://www.amjmed.com/webfiles/images/journals/ajm/AJM12080.pdf

Nice. From that article:

Guns Prevent Holocausts Captur12

Guns don't kill people. If they do, those people must have done something bad. Therefore, guns don't kill people.

by MaxEntropy_Man Wed Sep 18, 2013 8:30 pm

mainstreet wrote:How about showing your sources of data too, Know-It-All? You know you sound really ignorant for someone with an MBA/PhD, whatever... You wouldn't go to your boss with such crappy research now, would you?

i did give you the original source of the wiki data: http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/united-states

that website has data collated by the university of sydney. it has the year over year data that you want to look at. for example the gun homicides (per 100,000) for the US are:

2011: 5.1
2010: 5.27
2009: 5.48
2008: 5.86
2007: 6.10
2006: 6.22
2005: 6.13
2004: 5.93
2003: 6.11
2002: 6.13
2001: 7.13
2000: 5.96
1999: 6.05
1998: 5.19
1997: 6.7
1996: 7.3
1995: 8.1
1993: 9.93

for france:

2009: 0.22
2008: 0.23
2007: 0.16
2006: 0.18
2005: 0.2
2004: 0.22
2003: 0.2
2002: 0.26
2001: 0.28
2000: 0.26
1999: 0.26
1998: 0.29
1997: 0.37
1994: 0.44

for switzerland:

2010: 0.52
2009: 0.72
2008: 0.24
2007: 0.46
2006: 0.45
2005: 0.64
2004: 0.8
2003: 0.6
2002: 0.9
2001: 0.7
2000: 0.6
1999: 1.0
1998: 0.9
1994: 0.58

as you can see, looking at year by year data makes no difference to the point i was making. you can find similar data for any other country.

by MaxEntropy_Man Wed Sep 18, 2013 8:36 pm

Idéfix wrote:

PS: You will probably not respond, just like you ran away from the question about requirements for training as a condition for legally using guns in Switzerland. If you don't respond, I will post the US number of guns per 100 residents in a few hours.

http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/united-states

the answer is over a 100. for the US to get to swiss levels will require a 54% decrease in gun ownership.

by gone Wed Sep 18, 2013 8:42 pm

Ugh! This research is so crappy! Where is the TOTAL homicide rate by country? No brainer that if guns aren't legal in France, people will use a knife, a crowbar, lethal injections, chemicals...other ways of killing people. How do you think that girl was raped last year in India? At gunpoint?

by gone Wed Sep 18, 2013 8:44 pm

When the total homicide rate of France is higher than Switzerland, you have to wonder if the victims could have defended themselves by carrying a gun.

by gone Wed Sep 18, 2013 8:55 pm

I bet you won't be copy/pasting the TOTAL homicide rates of France and Switzerland here. That's because it's higher in France. So much for gun control making France safer than Switzerland.

by MaxEntropy_Man Wed Sep 18, 2013 8:56 pm

mainstreet wrote:When the total homicide rate of France is higher than Switzerland, you have to wonder if the victims could have defended themselves by carrying a gun.

that too is available from the same website. you only have to look.

all numbers per 100,000 of population

for france:

2008: 0.77
2007: 0.6
2006: 0.7
2005: 0.7
2004: 0.7
2003: 0.8
2002: 0.8
2001: 0.9
2000: 0.9
1999: 0.7
1998: 0.8
1997: 0.9
1996: 1.1
1995: 1.1
1994: 1.12

switzerland:

2010: 0.70
2009: 0.67
2008: 0.7
2007: 0.7
2006: 0.8
2005: 1.0
2004: 1.1
2003: 1.0
2002: 1.2
2001: 1.2
2000: 1.0
1999: 1.2
1998: 1.1
1997: 1.2
1996: 1.2
1995: 1.2
1994: 1.32

and the US:

2011: 5.1
2010: 5.27
2009: 5.48
2008: 5.86
2007: 6.10
2006: 6.22
2005: 6.13
2004: 5.93
2003: 6.11
2002: 6.13
2001: 7.13
2000: 5.96
1999: 6.05
1998: 5.19
1997: 6.7
1996: 7.3
1995: 8.1
1993: 9.93

by MaxEntropy_Man Wed Sep 18, 2013 9:06 pm

Petrichor wrote:http://www.amjmed.com/webfiles/images/journals/ajm/AJM12080.pdf

thank you! those who are interested can dig through the data and analysis, but i think the conclusions are worth reading if you want a quick sense of what this article is about:

The present data suggest that the number of guns per
capita per country correlated strongly and was an independent
predictor of firearm-related deaths. Additionally,
in a linear regression model there was a correlation with
mental illness, but this was of borderline significance in a
multivariable model. Although correlation is not synonymous
with causation, it seems conceivable that abundant
gun availability facilitates firearm-related deaths. Conversely,
high crime rates may instigate widespread anxiety
and fear, thereby motivating people to arm themselves and
give rise to increased gun ownership, which, in turn, increases
availability. The resulting vicious cycle could,
bit-by-bit, lead to the polarized status that is now the
case with the US. Regardless of exact cause and effect,
however, the current study debunks the widely quoted
hypothesis purporting to show that countries with the
higher gun ownership are safer than those with low gun
ownership.

by gone Wed Sep 18, 2013 9:14 pm

If you want to go by one-year data, then here's the most recent for 2012:
France's Total Homicide Rate: 1.1 per 100,000 residents
Switzerland: 0.7

Now, why isn't all that gun control helping France keep their homicide rate down? You would assume no guns=less crime and fewer homicides than Switzerland. Alas, not so.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

Not that I care for any statistics put out by the United Nations or anyone else. I'll keep my guns and dogs close by and feel a lot safer, thank you very much for your paralysis by analysis.

by Sponsored content