Re: Guns Prevent Holocausts

by gone Wed Sep 18, 2013 9:20 pm

Also, a substantial percentage of France's total homicides are gun homicides. That proves criminals can get their hands on guns and ammo in a country where guns are illegal.

by MaxEntropy_Man Wed Sep 18, 2013 9:32 pm

mainstreet wrote:Also, a substantial percentage of France's total homicides are gun homicides. That proves criminals can get their hands on guns and ammo in a country where guns are illegal.

this argument is a non-starter. for anything that you want to ban or prohibit by legislation be it guns, drugs, child porn, or rape there will be law breakers. that doesn't mean it is desirable to have total laissez faire on anything and everything. if you ban something by law, you make it harder to obtain. it's as simple as that.

by MaxEntropy_Man Wed Sep 18, 2013 9:34 pm

mainstreet wrote:Also, a substantial percentage of France's total homicides are gun homicides. That proves criminals can get their hands on guns and ammo in a country where guns are illegal.

child porn is illegal, but people still get child porn. should we make child porn legal since motivated sickos are going to get it anyway?

by gone Wed Sep 18, 2013 9:35 pm

Sure, harder to obtain for law-abiding citizens and harder for them to defend themselves. The criminals will always know where to get them.

by gone Wed Sep 18, 2013 9:41 pm

Not the same thing. No one needs child porn for self-defense.

by MaxEntropy_Man Wed Sep 18, 2013 9:46 pm

mainstreet wrote:Not the same thing. No one needs child porn for self-defense.

there should be no such thing as prescription medication. all drugs should be available to everyone freely. it's not up to the doctor to decide what drug i can and cannot take. why legislate that? anyway, i realize it's futile to argue with you. generally gun nuts are impervious to coffee and logic, but you are also a low wattage gun nut (as evidenced your inability to understand numbers and also your stupid arguments about why germany did not invade switzerland). so it's more futile to argue with you than the average gun nut.

by gone Wed Sep 18, 2013 9:51 pm

Then, please stop arguing with a "gun nut" because that proves you're just a plain nut.

by gone Wed Sep 18, 2013 9:56 pm

Also, those numbers you provided on TOTAL homicide rates for France are conveniently missing any stats from 2008 onward. The TOTAL homicide rate in France is much higher than Switzerland's and has been for a while. You might want to provide a link to this data because it's not on gunpolicy.org. We're talking TOTAL not just gun homicides.

by smArtha Wed Sep 18, 2013 9:59 pm

"Guns prevent holocausts"

Right. When you are in the gas chamber having your gun next to you definitely is empowering.
Reading your arguments on this thread cleared two misconceptions I carried so far.
A) Only Jews still live in the WW-II times
B) 'slogic' is the USP of a specific handle on CH

by gone Wed Sep 18, 2013 10:03 pm

The Nazis would never have been able to take six million Jews into concentration camps if they had been armed. A few of them would have fought back to death and that would have been enough pain for the Nazis to not go any further with their race purification plans.

by MaxEntropy_Man Wed Sep 18, 2013 10:06 pm

mainstreet wrote:Also, those numbers you provided on TOTAL homicide rates for France are conveniently missing any stats from 2008 onward. The TOTAL homicide rate in France is much higher than Switzerland's and has been for a while. You might want to provide a link to this data because it's not on gunpolicy.org. We're talking TOTAL not just gun homicides.

how is it much higher? is 0.77 per 100,000 much higher than 0.7 per 100,000 (this is for 2008. in prior years france's numbers were equal or lower)? this is why i ask you, do you really understand simple concepts like percentages? for example 0.77 is higher than 0.7 by 10%.

you are also implying that i deliberately suppressed data after 2008. i did not. i posted the data that the u of sydney website lists. there is no sinister motive on my part.

look, i forced you to debate the actual numbers by posting them. prior to my starting any debate on these numbers you made some airy-fairy statements about switzerland with no basis in reality. in addition to stupidity you also have a credibility problem.

you also have to answer idefix's questions and my subsequent response to him. do you realize that gun ownership in the US has to go down by 54% to match switzerland's? and the other question he asked you was whether you are comfortable having switzerland's strict requirements for gun ownership. you have answered neither.

by gone Wed Sep 18, 2013 10:10 pm

Oh wait! Why is it even 0.77 vs 0.7 and growing? Shouldn't all that gun control be making it MUCH safer than Switzerland? Tsk, tsk! Poor ivory tower idiot.

by bw Wed Sep 18, 2013 10:15 pm

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2012/07/a-land-without-guns-how-japan-has-virtually-eliminated-shooting-deaths/260189/

how does one explain japan?

by gone Wed Sep 18, 2013 10:21 pm

It seems the Jews and Japanese have become the opposite since World War 2. The Jews have become bigger on self-defense and a string military after so many of them were gassed for being nothing but peaceful. The Japanese have become pacifists after the nuclear tragedy.

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Wed Sep 18, 2013 10:44 pm

bw wrote:http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2012/07/a-land-without-guns-how-japan-has-virtually-eliminated-shooting-deaths/260189/

how does one explain japan?

The japanese criminal with a gun still bows before attacking which gives the defendent to use his karate skills.

That is the explanation and I am sticking to it.

by smArtha Wed Sep 18, 2013 11:00 pm

mainstreet wrote:It seems the Jews and Japanese have become the opposite since World War 2. The Jews have become bigger on self-defense and a string military after so many of them were gassed for being nothing but peaceful. The Japanese have become pacifists after the nuclear tragedy.

Can you guess who is sleeping peacefully?

by Idéfix Wed Sep 18, 2013 11:04 pm

mainstreet wrote:It seems the Jews and Japanese have become the opposite since World War 2. The Jews have become bigger on self-defense and a string military after so many of them were gassed for being nothing but peaceful. The Japanese have become pacifists after the nuclear tragedy.

Israel has about 7 guns per 100 people. Japan has less than 1. The United States has over 100.

by gone Wed Sep 18, 2013 11:05 pm

You can sleep peacefully when the criminals around you are not violent. If they're Arabs, German Nazis, or gang members, buy a few guns and get some big dogs like the neutral Swiss.

by gone Wed Sep 18, 2013 11:17 pm

Go take a hike! I'm not interested in answering your boring multiple choice questions, nor do I need any crappy research from a dumb MBA/PHD/whatever with no research abilities.

by MaxEntropy_Man Thu Sep 19, 2013 9:07 am

mainstreet wrote:Go take a hike! I'm not interested in answering your boring multiple choice questions, nor do I need any crappy research from a dumb MBA/PHD/whatever with no research abilities.

** you are angry
** you are upset

by gone Thu Sep 19, 2013 10:17 am

Oh no! Not me. But you should be because:

1. You and the MBA idiot have no clue how to do any research (looking at gun homicide rates for hours instead of total homicide rates to prove that France with gun control is some kind of utopia compared to gun-friendly Swiss...it's not!)
2. I didn't make any air-fairy claims about Switzerland. It hasn't been to war for over 200 years. That's quite an accomplishment in Europe. The PBS link that I provided states that historians agree that even Hitler didn't seem confident about defeating millions of heavily armed Swiss citizens. Not one Jewish Swiss citizen went to a concentration camp. Enough said.

by MaxEntropy_Man Thu Sep 19, 2013 10:31 am

mainstreet wrote:Oh no! Not me. But you should be because:

1. You and the MBA idiot have no clue how to do any research (looking at gun homicide rates for hours instead of total homicide rates to prove that France with gun control is some kind of utopia compared to gun-friendly Swiss...it's not!)
2. I didn't make any air-fairy claims about Switzerland. It hasn't been to war for over 200 years. That's quite an accomplishment in Europe. The PBS link that I provided states that historians agree that even Hitler didn't seem confident about defeating millions of heavily armed Swiss citizens. Not one Jewish Swiss citizen went to a concentration camp. Enough said.

the difference between france and switzerland is in general small over many years. what you are conveniently ignoring is the fact that both have orders of magnitude (is that a phrase you understand or do i have to explain that too?) lower total homicides and gun homicides than the US. there is only one person in this discussion who wants to bury her head in the sand. it's you.

by MaxEntropy_Man Thu Sep 19, 2013 10:34 am

it is also intellectually dishonest for you after making a claim that the US should become like switzerland with regards to gun ownership, to not return to the discussion and acknowledge your error when it was shown that gun ownership in the US per capita far exceeds switzerland. in fact to match switzerland's levels the ownership levels have to go down by 54%. there is much egg on your face. if i were you, i'd be looking for a wash basin, soap, a towel and some humility.

by smArtha Thu Sep 19, 2013 10:40 am

mainstreet wrote:You can sleep peacefully when the criminals around you are not violent. If they're Arabs, German Nazis, or gang members, buy a few guns and get some big dogs like the neutral Swiss.

Since you seem to be long on opinions and short on facts (even when others have shown relevant data), let me try a simple common sense based approach.

Why is the criminal minded carrying a gun today? Because his targets are unarmed and so brandishing a weapon will give him control. Now if all his targets are armed with a gun, albeit for defense, will the one who is after control and power not enhance his armory?. If and when that happens, he'll definitely acquire the next level weapon that empowers him more than the gun carrying civilians. So just arming everyone doesn't address the safety as you like to vehemently believe.

by gone Thu Sep 19, 2013 11:09 am

Okay, Smartha, if you think data on the TOTAL homicide rate is just my opinion, (2012 data shows the total homicide rate is 1.1 in France and 0.7 in Switzerland), let's see what kind of amazing "facts" you can come up with to refute these FACTS.

Finally, you might want to back up your theory of bigger and better weapons with some data...I have never heard of gang members making nukes.

by gone Thu Sep 19, 2013 11:12 am

Also, the very FACT that ivory tower idiot and MBA idiot were digging up GUN homicide data for hours instead of TOTAL homicide data is ironic. It proves that countries with gun control have lots of gun-related homicides. So much for being able to control access to guns by criminals.

by MaxEntropy_Man Thu Sep 19, 2013 11:18 am

mainstreet wrote:Also, the very FACT that ivory tower idiot and MBA idiot were digging up GUN homicide data for hours instead of TOTAL homicide data is ironic. It proves that countries with gun control have lots of gun-related homicides. So much for being able to control access to guns by criminals.

never mind that the opposite was shown to be true in the paper to which petrichor posted a link yesterday (http://www.amjmed.com/webfiles/images/journals/ajm/AJM12080.pdf). and let me repeat the graph that idefix posted from the paper:

Guns Prevent Holocausts - Page 2 Captur10

Guns Prevent Holocausts - Page 2 Captur10

i suppose in your line of work, data, analysis, and logic are optional.

by gone Thu Sep 19, 2013 11:21 am

Who cares what gun ownership is per capita? What is it per household literally and not on average? In the U.S., you have thousands of Indian American households without a gun. To make up for that, you have millions of guns in the hands of gangs, criminals, drug pushers, and crazies like the Davidian cult. That's not a very uniform distribution of guns.

In Swizerland, every law-abiding household seems to have at least one gun. Again, different type of distribution.

by gone Thu Sep 19, 2013 11:23 am

That paper was all about GUN homicides, not TOTAL homicides. You can make a fool of yourself on here until the cows come home, ivory tower idiot.

by MaxEntropy_Man Thu Sep 19, 2013 11:29 am

mainstreet wrote:That paper was all about GUN homicides, not TOTAL homicides. You can make a fool of yourself on here until the cows come home, ivory tower idiot.

mainstreet wrote:Also, the very FACT that ivory tower idiot and MBA idiot were digging up GUN homicide data for hours instead of TOTAL homicide data is ironic. It proves that countries with gun control have lots of gun-related homicides. So much for being able to control access to guns by criminals.

i was responding to that with the graph from the paper. i don't know if anyone has looked at total homicide rate carefully against per capita gun ownerhsip. might be a good exercise. the data after all are available. just a matter of plotting it. i may do so when i find the time.

by gone Thu Sep 19, 2013 11:32 am

It shouldn't even be per capita. The distribution across law-abiding citizens and households should be taken into consideration for a solid conclusion.

by MaxEntropy_Man Thu Sep 19, 2013 11:33 am

mainstreet wrote:If you want to go by one-year data, then here's the most recent for 2012:
France's Total Homicide Rate: 1.1 per 100,000 residents
Switzerland: 0.7

Now, why isn't all that gun control helping France keep their homicide rate down? You would assume no guns=less crime and fewer homicides than Switzerland. Alas, not so.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

Not that I care for any statistics put out by the United Nations or anyone else. I'll keep my guns and dogs close by and feel a lot safer, thank you very much for your paralysis by analysis.

you can keep your guns. but if you make sweeping statements pulled out of your ass, expect to be called on it. yes i agree with your 2012 data, but there were many prior years when france had a lower total homicide rate than switzerland.

by gone Thu Sep 19, 2013 11:39 am

That's because France didn't have all those unemployed Mohammeds back in the day. Yes, I am just saying this from experience because I was in Europe for a few weeks this summer and I got to sense the safety levels in many cities. I was at the airport in Paris (the airport is in a depressed area outside Paris), and this giant Arab mob convened outside the airport shouting something about jobs and burning effigies of someone. It was a frightening thing to watch and even the French cops standing nearby seemed afraid of them.

by Idéfix Thu Sep 19, 2013 11:41 am

According to OECD data here, Swiss households have 2.2 people on average while French households have 2.3 and US households have 2.6 peple. So if we translate those per-capita numbers to per-household numbers, here is how the comparison looks:

Country	Guns per 100 people	Guns per 100 households
France	31	71
Switzerland	46	101
United States	101	263

For those incapable of drawing conclusions from numbers, let me state the obvious: Switzerland is a lot more like France than it is like the United States when it comes to gun ownership. In fact, the gap between Switzerland and the US is wider by the per-household metric than it is by the per-capita metric!

If the US adopted Swiss-style gun laws and reached Swiss levels of gun ownership, we will probably reduce gun violence in this country. That will require more gun control not less, and fewer guns not more.

by gone Thu Sep 19, 2013 11:45 am

The data per household doesn't tell you anything about the literal distribution over each household. That data wouldn't work.

by Guest Thu Sep 19, 2013 11:45 am

Idéfix wrote:According to OECD data here, Swiss households have 2.2 people on average while French households have 2.3 and US households have 2.6 peple. So if we translate those per-capita numbers to per-household numbers, here is how the comparison looks:

Country Guns per 100 people Guns per 100 households
France 31 71
Switzerland 46 101
United States 101 263
For those incapable of drawing conclusions from numbers, let me state the obvious: Switzerland is a lot more like France than it is like the United States when it comes to gun ownership. In fact, the gap between Switzerland and the US is wider by the per-household metric than it is by the per-capita metric!

If the US adopted Swiss-style gun laws and reached Swiss levels of gun ownership, we will probably reduce gun violence in this country. That will require more gun control not less, and fewer guns not more.

did she call you MBA idiot?

by gone Thu Sep 19, 2013 11:46 am

You could have 99 households without a gun and one household with all of the guns and the data wouldn't show the real picture.

by MaxEntropy_Man Thu Sep 19, 2013 11:51 am

it's better to have as fine-grained data as possible to understand any social issue. however, having coarse-grained data and drawing conclusions based on that is far better than pulling hypothesis out of one's anal orifice just because it feels right. so the anal orifice theory puller (ANOTOP) is in no position to criticize someone making reasonable conclusions albeit from imperfect data.

by Idéfix Thu Sep 19, 2013 11:51 am

mainstreet Yesterday at 4:47 pm:
How about guns per household instead of per 100 residents? That can show a completely different picture, Know-It-All.

mainstreet Today at 8:45 am:
The data per household doesn't tell you anything about the literal distribution over each household. That data wouldn't work.

---

If the data you are looking at don't support the conclusion you have in mind, ask for other data! If those other data don't either, rinse and repeat.

by Idéfix Thu Sep 19, 2013 11:52 am

Vidya Bagchi wrote:did she call you MBA idiot?

Haha, yes.

by smArtha Thu Sep 19, 2013 11:54 am

Idéfix wrote:mainstreet Yesterday at 4:47 pm:
How about guns per household instead of per 100 residents? That can show a completely different picture, Know-It-All.

mainstreet Today at 8:45 am:
The data per household doesn't tell you anything about the literal distribution over each household. That data wouldn't work.

---

If the data you are looking at don't support the conclusion you have in mind, ask for other data!

Yes and what next, we want the names and other demographic information of each gun holder to match those in Switzerland for a valid comparison :-)

by gone Thu Sep 19, 2013 12:48 pm

Maybe you could go find median data on the number of guns per household instead of mean data. Considering how good you both are at research, logic, and and analysis.

by gone Thu Sep 19, 2013 12:50 pm

That MIGHT show the real story if the sample size picked is large and accurate enough.

by ashaNirasha Thu Sep 19, 2013 1:57 pm

Idéfix wrote:
Vidya Bagchi wrote:did she call you MBA idiot?
Haha, yes.

The only way to get back at that is to say that you have Whole Foods a block from away from where you are sitting. That surely would make her weep, or grab a gun.

by Petrichor Thu Sep 19, 2013 1:59 pm

I declare mainstreet the winner in this thread - she garnered quite a bit of attention without involving DH and scenes out of Pretty Woman.

by Idéfix Thu Sep 19, 2013 2:09 pm

ashaNirasha wrote:
Idéfix wrote:
Vidya Bagchi wrote:did she call you MBA idiot?
Haha, yes.
The only way to get back at that is to say that you have Whole Foods a block from away from where you are sitting. That surely would make her weep, or grab a gun.

LOL. Whole Foods is nothing, I have something better: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berkeley_Bowl

And a couple of weekends ago, this was half a block away: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solano_Avenue_Stroll
They were handing out pamphlets with this map on it:
Guns Prevent Holocausts - Page 2 Israel-palestine_map

Guns Prevent Holocausts - Page 2 Israel-palestine_map

by Petrichor Thu Sep 19, 2013 2:14 pm

Everytime we are reminded of special "holidays", these maps should be posted in response.

by gone Thu Sep 19, 2013 3:05 pm

Yeah, so I have to make a six-hour round trip to a Whole Foods, but because DH works here where reimbursements are higher and there is no competition, we can afford to fly out to NY and CA's best restaurants (Daniel, Per Se, French Laundry, Manresa, and Alinea this year). If we were working in those states, we wouldn't be going to so many Michelin-star restaurants in a year. Everything has its pros and cons, and nothing's perfect.

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