Is it really easy to carve out Telangana from AP?

Idéfix wrote:https://such.forumotion.com/t15480-does-the-telangana-bill-require-2-3-majority-in-both-houses-of-parliament#119392

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:

Idéfix wrote:https://such.forumotion.com/t15480-does-the-telangana-bill-require-2-3-majority-in-both-houses-of-parliament#119392

Hmm... Forgot about that thread. Still, it seems amendments under Schedule 7 would be the main problem. I can imagine MT not being familiar with the complications involved but others around her (Abhishek Manu Singhvi and Kapil Sibel, for example) are pretty good lawyers.

smArtha wrote:

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:

Idéfix wrote:https://such.forumotion.com/t15480-does-the-telangana-bill-require-2-3-majority-in-both-houses-of-parliament#119392

Hmm... Forgot about that thread. Still, it seems amendments under Schedule 7 would be the main problem. I can imagine MT not being familiar with the complications involved but others around her (Abhishek Manu Singhvi and Kapil Sibel, for example) are pretty good lawyers.

It is precisely such attitudes of denial that has brought this situation on SAs. Somehow hope against hope that status quo remains and no discussion about T-sentiments, issues or bifurcation happens. This resulted in not reaching out to T-side and assimilating them wholly in the last 60 years and now this same attitude will result in not being able to secure any guarantees for themselves should the bifurcation happen. It is time the SA folks come out of hunting for legal/political or executive loop holes or tricks can be used to delay the T-decision and open themselves up for tough negotiations and enforceable guarantees to safe guard interests of their regions and people.

smArtha wrote:It is precisely such attitudes of denial that has brought this situation on SAs. Somehow hope against hope that status quo remains and no discussion about T-sentiments, issues or bifurcation happens. This resulted in not reaching out to T-side and assimilating them wholly in the last 60 years and now this same attitude will result in not being able to secure any guarantees for themselves should the bifurcation happen. 

Idéfix wrote:

smArtha wrote:It is precisely such attitudes of denial that has brought this situation on SAs. Somehow hope against hope that status quo remains and no discussion about T-sentiments, issues or bifurcation happens. This resulted in not reaching out to T-side and assimilating them wholly in the last 60 years and now this same attitude will result in not being able to secure any guarantees for themselves should the bifurcation happen. 

Well said. With the agitation in Seemandhra winding down, it is time SA people and politicians recognized that this happening, and started talking about terms for an amicable separation.

bharadwaja wrote:I believe it is a 100 trillion rupee  question..Madabhushi Sridhar  feels that apriori there is no need for the removal of 371D and Telangana could be carved out with a simple majority in the parliament.(Please see  http://www.asianage.com/columnists/telangana-no-need-amend-constitution-128)   Subsequently, he avers, the redundunt parts have to be removed by a 2/3 majority(?).
Is that the way the govt going to tread? Does the congress party  already know the implications and complications of 371D and 32 amenment and still want to get projected as the party that  benevolently thought of delivering Telangana?
We have to wait and see..

Idéfix wrote:

smArtha wrote:It is precisely such attitudes of denial that has brought this situation on SAs. Somehow hope against hope that status quo remains and no discussion about T-sentiments, issues or bifurcation happens. This resulted in not reaching out to T-side and assimilating them wholly in the last 60 years and now this same attitude will result in not being able to secure any guarantees for themselves should the bifurcation happen. 

Well said. With the agitation in Seemandhra winding down, it is time SA people and politicians recognized that this happening, and started talking about terms for an amicable separation.

confuzzled dude wrote:

Idéfix wrote:

smArtha wrote:It is precisely such attitudes of denial that has brought this situation on SAs. Somehow hope against hope that status quo remains and no discussion about T-sentiments, issues or bifurcation happens. This resulted in not reaching out to T-side and assimilating them wholly in the last 60 years and now this same attitude will result in not being able to secure any guarantees for themselves should the bifurcation happen. 

Well said. With the agitation in Seemandhra winding down, it is time SA people and politicians recognized that this happening, and started talking about terms for an amicable separation.

It will be anything but amicable no matter what. Down the road, I don't think there will be any special relation between the two states, all the rhetoric we are all bothers is all hogwash. And you guys act as if center gave various options to SAs to choose from, remember center shoved this down their throats, please wake up and smell coffee before talking about attitudes and such crap.

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:

confuzzled dude wrote:

Idéfix wrote:

smArtha wrote:It is precisely such attitudes of denial that has brought this situation on SAs. Somehow hope against hope that status quo remains and no discussion about T-sentiments, issues or bifurcation happens. This resulted in not reaching out to T-side and assimilating them wholly in the last 60 years and now this same attitude will result in not being able to secure any guarantees for themselves should the bifurcation happen. 

Well said. With the agitation in Seemandhra winding down, it is time SA people and politicians recognized that this happening, and started talking about terms for an amicable separation.

It will be anything but amicable no matter what. Down the road, I don't think there will be any special relation between the two states, all the rhetoric we are all bothers is all hogwash. And you guys act as if center gave various options to SAs to choose from, remember center shoved this down their throats, please wake up and smell coffee before talking about attitudes and such crap.

Indeed! KD Rama rao, statistician-Kodandaram, hooch-Dora, etc., are waiting like crocodiles in the pond. Once the state is separated, they will start lying and biting again. AP has nothing to lose. They should fight this out and expose the crooks.

confuzzled dude wrote:

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:

confuzzled dude wrote:

Idéfix wrote:

smArtha wrote:It is precisely such attitudes of denial that has brought this situation on SAs. Somehow hope against hope that status quo remains and no discussion about T-sentiments, issues or bifurcation happens. This resulted in not reaching out to T-side and assimilating them wholly in the last 60 years and now this same attitude will result in not being able to secure any guarantees for themselves should the bifurcation happen. 

Well said. With the agitation in Seemandhra winding down, it is time SA people and politicians recognized that this happening, and started talking about terms for an amicable separation.

It will be anything but amicable no matter what. Down the road, I don't think there will be any special relation between the two states, all the rhetoric we are all bothers is all hogwash. And you guys act as if center gave various options to SAs to choose from, remember center shoved this down their throats, please wake up and smell coffee before talking about attitudes and such crap.

Indeed! KD Rama rao, statistician-Kodandaram, hooch-Dora, etc., are waiting like crocodiles in the pond. Once the state is separated, they will start lying and biting again. AP has nothing to lose. They should fight this out and expose the crooks.

I mean nothing, absolutely nothing was brought to the table before the decision was made and what were these guys  expecting? Were they thinking that SAs would jump in joy and embrace with open arms, it is ludicrous to equate SA agitation to attitude problems.

Propagandhi711 wrote:

confuzzled dude wrote:

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:

confuzzled dude wrote:

Idéfix wrote:Well said. With the agitation in Seemandhra winding down, it is time SA people and politicians recognized that this happening, and started talking about terms for an amicable separation.

It will be anything but amicable no matter what. Down the road, I don't think there will be any special relation between the two states, all the rhetoric we are all bothers is all hogwash. And you guys act as if center gave various options to SAs to choose from, remember center shoved this down their throats, please wake up and smell coffee before talking about attitudes and such crap.

Indeed! KD Rama rao, statistician-Kodandaram, hooch-Dora, etc., are waiting like crocodiles in the pond. Once the state is separated, they will start lying and biting again. AP has nothing to lose. They should fight this out and expose the crooks.

I mean nothing, absolutely nothing was brought to the table before the decision was made and what were these guys  expecting? Were they thinking that SAs would jump in joy and embrace with open arms, it is ludicrous to equate SA agitation to attitude problems.

the attitude shown here is telangana has genuine grievances but SA doesnt. guess which side that attitude is coming from? if they really want a strong bargaining chip, they should add another alternative: after 10 yrs, hyd becomes UT, with both states getting a share of taxes collected.

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:

Propagandhi711 wrote:

confuzzled dude wrote:

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:

confuzzled dude wrote:It will be anything but amicable no matter what. Down the road, I don't think there will be any special relation between the two states, all the rhetoric we are all bothers is all hogwash. And you guys act as if center gave various options to SAs to choose from, remember center shoved this down their throats, please wake up and smell coffee before talking about attitudes and such crap.

Indeed! KD Rama rao, statistician-Kodandaram, hooch-Dora, etc., are waiting like crocodiles in the pond. Once the state is separated, they will start lying and biting again. AP has nothing to lose. They should fight this out and expose the crooks.

I mean nothing, absolutely nothing was brought to the table before the decision was made and what were these guys  expecting? Were they thinking that SAs would jump in joy and embrace with open arms, it is ludicrous to equate SA agitation to attitude problems.

the attitude shown here is telangana has genuine grievances but SA doesnt. guess which side that attitude is coming from? if they really want a strong bargaining chip, they should add another alternative: after 10 yrs, hyd becomes UT, with both states getting a share of taxes collected.

Great idea. This way, two new cities will be developed and T will still benefit since Hyd is surrounded by T. However, KCR will cry foul and Kodandaram will add more numbers to the suicide list because they are, in reality, after just Hyderabad for the revenue it generates.

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:Looks like that is what everyone (CON ministers, TDP, the employees who today called off the strike, etc.) is doing now. If MT is after the 17 MP seats in Telangana, how will she be impartial when it comes to water and Hyderabad? I am sure, TRS will cry foul no matter what the settlement will be on those two contentious issues. MT has very little room to maneuver. Since the division is mainly for electoral gains, SA is screwed in the hands of MT. If the division takes place after the election, such political calculations won't play a significant role.

smArtha wrote:

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:Looks like that is what everyone (CON ministers, TDP, the employees who today called off the strike, etc.) is doing now. If MT is after the 17 MP seats in Telangana, how will she be impartial when it comes to water and Hyderabad? I am sure, TRS will cry foul no matter what the settlement will be on those two contentious issues. MT has very little room to maneuver. Since the division is mainly for electoral gains, SA is screwed in the hands of MT. If the division takes place after the election, such political calculations won't play a significant role.

Doesn't matter when the division happens, you can only negotiate if there is clarity and reasonable consensus amongst the political and non-political leaders regarding what should be the terms of division (may be a $25b/yr financial package guaranteed for the next 10 years, Federal Tax holiday for businesses investing in the capital building and infrastructure of the new state, Tax discounts for citizens investing in the reconstruction bonds issued by/for the new state, resource utilization and distribution guarantees, revenue sharing from Hyderabad till the new Capital is developed etc..). I have not seen any such meaningful effort from even the supposed champions of SA like Jagan, Lagadapati etc. And the lone statement from CBN hinting this direction was ridiculed by the whole spectrum of people and now he is super dazed and confused what steps to take. It is one thing to show resistance through agitations and another to have a strategy and direction for securing what one wants.

confuzzled dude wrote:It will be anything but amicable no matter what. Down the road, I don't think there will be any special relation between the two states, all the rhetoric we are all bothers is hogwash. And you guys act as if center gave various options to SAs to choose from, remember center shoved this down their throats, please wake up and smell coffee before talking about attitudes and such crap.

confuzzled dude wrote:
I mean nothing, absolutely nothing was brought to the table before the decision was made and what were these guys  expecting? Were they thinking that SAs would jump in joy and embrace with open arms, it is ludicrous to equate SA agitation to attitude problems.

Propagandhi711 wrote:the attitude shown here is telangana has genuine grievances but SA doesnt. guess which side that attitude is coming from? if they really want a strong bargaining chip, they should add another alternative: after 10 yrs, hyd becomes UT, with both states getting a share of taxes collected.

Propagandhi711 wrote:

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:

Propagandhi711 wrote:

confuzzled dude wrote:

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:Indeed! KD Rama rao, statistician-Kodandaram, hooch-Dora, etc., are waiting like crocodiles in the pond. Once the state is separated, they will start lying and biting again. AP has nothing to lose. They should fight this out and expose the crooks.

I mean nothing, absolutely nothing was brought to the table before the decision was made and what were these guys  expecting? Were they thinking that SAs would jump in joy and embrace with open arms, it is ludicrous to equate SA agitation to attitude problems.

the attitude shown here is telangana has genuine grievances but SA doesnt. guess which side that attitude is coming from? if they really want a strong bargaining chip, they should add another alternative: after 10 yrs, hyd becomes UT, with both states getting a share of taxes collected.

Great idea. This way, two new cities will be developed and T will still benefit since Hyd is surrounded by T. However, KCR will cry foul and Kodandaram will add more numbers to the suicide list because they are, in reality, after just Hyderabad for the revenue it generates.

correct. hyd is what they're fighting for. outside of hyd and couple of places like khammam & warangal they could give a shit abt rest

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:

Propagandhi711 wrote:

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:

Propagandhi711 wrote:

confuzzled dude wrote:I mean nothing, absolutely nothing was brought to the table before the decision was made and what were these guys  expecting? Were they thinking that SAs would jump in joy and embrace with open arms, it is ludicrous to equate SA agitation to attitude problems.

the attitude shown here is telangana has genuine grievances but SA doesnt. guess which side that attitude is coming from? if they really want a strong bargaining chip, they should add another alternative: after 10 yrs, hyd becomes UT, with both states getting a share of taxes collected.

Great idea. This way, two new cities will be developed and T will still benefit since Hyd is surrounded by T. However, KCR will cry foul and Kodandaram will add more numbers to the suicide list because they are, in reality, after just Hyderabad for the revenue it generates.

correct. hyd is what they're fighting for. outside of hyd and couple of places like khammam & warangal they could give a shit abt rest

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/andhra-pradesh/kiran-firm-on-defeating-t-resolution/article5245451.ece?homepage=true

smArtha wrote:

confuzzled dude wrote:
I mean nothing, absolutely nothing was brought to the table before the decision was made and what were these guys  expecting? Were they thinking that SAs would jump in joy and embrace with open arms, it is ludicrous to equate SA agitation to attitude problems.

CD - if you refuse to sit across the table then how does it matter if something was brought to the table or not? You can ask that question once you agree to sit down to discuss.

namo wrote:Forget about all the articles and amendments.

MPs in T=17
MPs in the rest of AP= 23 (?)

23>17

T's MP seats go to TRS and Cong. BJP has nothing to gain in T. So why will BJP support the bill in the parliament? If it opposes the bill on the grounds of addressing the concerns of the SA region first, it gets instant adoration from SA folks and may gain something from that. The ball is in the court of BJP.

Propagandhi711 wrote:

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:because they are, in reality, after just Hyderabad for the revenue it generates.

correct. hyd is what they're fighting for. outside of hyd ... they could give a shit abt rest

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:

namo wrote:Forget about all the articles and amendments.

MPs in T=17
MPs in the rest of AP= 23 (?)

23>17

T's MP seats go to TRS and Cong. BJP has nothing to gain in T. So why will BJP support the bill in the parliament? If it opposes the bill on the grounds of addressing the concerns of the SA region first, it gets instant adoration from SA folks and may gain something from that. The ball is in the court of BJP.

Apparently, SA should get 2 more MPs according to Rayapati. He is also making noise about shifting 2 talukas from Khammam to SA. He says that if MT gives up on T, he will guarantee the majority of SA MPs to CONs. I am sure, there are behind the scene discussions going on. Diggy may not be just shooting his mouth when he said that AP assembly will have the chance to put the T resolution to vote first before the T bill is introduced in parliament. That plan my be activated if MT is comfortable that she will get enough MPs from SA. Then the T resolution will be defeated in the Assembly and she will say that she can't proceed with the bill.

confuzzled dude wrote:

smArtha wrote:

confuzzled dude wrote:
I mean nothing, absolutely nothing was brought to the table before the decision was made and what were these guys  expecting? Were they thinking that SAs would jump in joy and embrace with open arms, it is ludicrous to equate SA agitation to attitude problems.

CD - if you refuse to sit across the table then how does it matter if something was brought to the table or not? You can ask that question once you agree to sit down to discuss.

What table and who invited who for talks!! Am I missing something here? High command refuses to talk to the MPs however useless they are. Did they reveal any blue print or road map?

confuzzled dude wrote:I mean nothing, absolutely nothing was brought to the table before the decision was made and what were these guys  expecting? Were they thinking that SAs would jump in joy and embrace with open arms, it is ludicrous to equate SA agitation to attitude problems.

Idéfix wrote:

confuzzled dude wrote:I mean nothing, absolutely nothing was brought to the table before the decision was made and what were these guys  expecting? Were they thinking that SAs would jump in joy and embrace with open arms, it is ludicrous to equate SA agitation to attitude problems.

Why did it happen that way? Hint: does the phrase "we trust High Command to make the right decision" ring a bell? SA Congressmen created this situation with their abject lack of spine and political vision.

confuzzled dude wrote:

Idéfix wrote:

confuzzled dude wrote:I mean nothing, absolutely nothing was brought to the table before the decision was made and what were these guys  expecting? Were they thinking that SAs would jump in joy and embrace with open arms, it is ludicrous to equate SA agitation to attitude problems.

Why did it happen that way? Hint: does the phrase "we trust High Command to make the right decision" ring a bell? SA Congressmen created this situation with their abject lack of spine and political vision.

Yes that's true but why blame common SA folks for protesting, that was their last resort they had to take matters into their hands since their leaders lack spine (Cong), on the fence & desperate (TDP) and lack vision (YSRC). People didn't even trust Loksatta & JP, where has he been, the so called intellectual, did he give up after taking physical beating in Kurnool or somewhere in Seema.

You know what would've happened had they not protested, everyone, including high command, other national, regional leaders and 'T' folks would've taken the bifurcation for granted.

Idéfix wrote:

confuzzled dude wrote:

Idéfix wrote:

confuzzled dude wrote:I mean nothing, absolutely nothing was brought to the table before the decision was made and what were these guys  expecting? Were they thinking that SAs would jump in joy and embrace with open arms, it is ludicrous to equate SA agitation to attitude problems.

Why did it happen that way? Hint: does the phrase "we trust High Command to make the right decision" ring a bell? SA Congressmen created this situation with their abject lack of spine and political vision.

Yes that's true but why blame common SA folks for protesting, that was their last resort they had to take matters into their hands since their leaders lack spine (Cong), on the fence & desperate (TDP) and lack vision (YSRC). People didn't even trust Loksatta & JP, where has he been, the so called intellectual, did he give up after taking physical beating in Kurnool or somewhere in Seema.

You know what would've happened had they not protested, everyone, including high command, other national, regional leaders and 'T' folks would've taken the bifurcation for granted.

I am not blaming common SA folks for protesting. I am saying protesting is not enough, and protesting when carried too long or far actually hurts rather than helps. When the people came out in protest two months ago, there was a golden opportunity for SA politicians to come together to craft common demands. They could have used the protests as great negotiating leverage. Instead, they remained spineless, on-the-fence and desperate, and vision-less. They looked at it from very short-term political calculations, and missed the big opportunity to do the right thing for the people they seek to represent. 

If SA people and/or their politicians remain in denial, that will be advantageous for Telangana. If OTOH they recognize reality and draft a political consensus around terms of separation, they can get a better deal for themselves.

Hellsangel wrote:

Idéfix wrote:

confuzzled dude wrote:

Idéfix wrote:

confuzzled dude wrote:I mean nothing, absolutely nothing was brought to the table before the decision was made and what were these guys  expecting? Were they thinking that SAs would jump in joy and embrace with open arms, it is ludicrous to equate SA agitation to attitude problems.

Why did it happen that way? Hint: does the phrase "we trust High Command to make the right decision" ring a bell? SA Congressmen created this situation with their abject lack of spine and political vision.

Yes that's true but why blame common SA folks for protesting, that was their last resort they had to take matters into their hands since their leaders lack spine (Cong), on the fence & desperate (TDP) and lack vision (YSRC). People didn't even trust Loksatta & JP, where has he been, the so called intellectual, did he give up after taking physical beating in Kurnool or somewhere in Seema.

You know what would've happened had they not protested, everyone, including high command, other national, regional leaders and 'T' folks would've taken the bifurcation for granted.

I am not blaming common SA folks for protesting. I am saying protesting is not enough, and protesting when carried too long or far actually hurts rather than helps. When the people came out in protest two months ago, there was a golden opportunity for SA politicians to come together to craft common demands. They could have used the protests as great negotiating leverage. Instead, they remained spineless, on-the-fence and desperate, and vision-less. They looked at it from very short-term political calculations, and missed the big opportunity to do the right thing for the people they seek to represent. 

If SA people and/or their politicians remain in denial, that will be advantageous for Telangana. If OTOH they recognize reality and draft a political consensus around terms of separation, they can get a better deal for themselves.

So either way the common SA folks are screwed?