Rajaji ( C Rajagopalachari) had a high opinion of Mughal Emperor Akbar

by Guest Fri Nov 08, 2013 11:25 am

http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/lead/the-great-akbar-of-independence-struggle/article5326492.ece?homepage=true

by MaxEntropy_Man Fri Nov 08, 2013 1:27 pm

rajagopalachari did some really weird (and IMO nasty) things like write english hymns and make MSS sing it at the UN concert. this is one of the things that MSS did that never worked for me in addition to the meera bhajan stuff.

there aren't too many things that MSS did that i'd label unsahikkable, but this is one of those rare things:

by Guest Fri Nov 08, 2013 1:37 pm

Different people have different views on aesthetics, beauty, etc. I myself have attended a Carnatic classical music performance in which one Krishna songs had hindi lines interspersed with tamil lines. This is similar to some of Amir Khusro's songs where persian and Hindi lines are interspersed. It is a kind of literary experiment.

At any rate, I am highlighting in this thread the fact that Rajaji--an intellectual from Tamil Nadu--had an obviously high opinion of Mughal emperor Akbar.

by Hellsangel Fri Nov 08, 2013 1:54 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:rajagopalachari did some really weird (and IMO nasty) things like write english hymns and make MSS sing it at the UN concert. this is one of the things that MSS did that never worked for me in addition to the meera bhajan stuff.

there aren't too many things that MSS did that i'd label unsahikkable, but this is one of those rare things:

A lot of the comments on YouTube have a different view, Il Professor-ai.

by Hellsangel Fri Nov 08, 2013 2:07 pm

I am not sure Rajaji had anything to do with this rendition:

by Vakavaka Pakapaka Fri Nov 08, 2013 3:22 pm

Rashmun wrote:http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/lead/the-great-akbar-of-independence-struggle/article5326492.ece?homepage=true

I don't have a high opinion of Rajagopalachari. So, I can ignore his opinion of Akbar. Razz

by MaxEntropy_Man Fri Nov 08, 2013 6:30 pm

Hellsangel wrote:
A lot of the comments on YouTube have a different view, Il Professor-ai.

so what? what is your opinion?

by MaxEntropy_Man Fri Nov 08, 2013 6:30 pm

Hellsangel wrote:I am not sure Rajaji had anything to do with this rendition:

bleh.

by MaxEntropy_Man Fri Nov 08, 2013 6:32 pm

when i listen to an MSS concert, i generally listen right up to the main piece, be it an RTP or an elaborate rendition of a krithi. what usually follows after the main piece is a barrage of tripe like the above or some meera bhajan like nonsense. at that point, i can safely stop listening and move on to something else.

i adore her, no doubt about that. i guess i love her music and somewhat sensitized to her music by my upbringing too, but i never understood why she had to indulge in all this crowd pleasing malarkey. actually scratch that, i do understand it. a lot of it had to do with her husband and his constant need to market her.

by Hellsangel Fri Nov 08, 2013 6:33 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Hellsangel wrote:
A lot of the comments on YouTube have a different view, Il Professor-ai.
so what? what is your opinion?

I don't give a damn one way or another about CM. The point is not everyone subscribes to your puritan notions.

by MaxEntropy_Man Fri Nov 08, 2013 6:38 pm

Hellsangel wrote:I don't give a damn one way or another about CM.

when you don't give a damn about something how do you judge another person's opinion?

by smArtha Fri Nov 08, 2013 6:39 pm

Interesting story and opinion about Akbar from a posting in another forum ..

"It is true that Hindus and sanatana dharma suffered badly at the hands of Muslim invaders (and other invaders), but it is wrong to take out that anger on Akbar. Some people cannot see beyond a man's name and religion and hence cannot recognize when a great celestial being is born in a different religion.

Swami Vimalananda, the Aghori yogi mentioned in the "Aghora" series books, is somebody who achieved the highest states of consciousness. He received a lot of knowledge directly from Mother Tara. Accordinging to him, Akbar and Jodha were the re-incarnation of Samyukta and Rajput King Prithviraj Chouhan. As Prithviraj, he repelled so many Muslim invaders at the border of India. When Muslims finally conquered India, he was reborn as one of them and put breaks on their aggression and changed their ways.

In that age, Muslim invaders engaged in barbarism, destroyed temples, libraries and other relics of native religion and culture. They beheaded Hindus who refused to convert, they raped Hindu women and they beheaded defeated kings. They just tried to wipe out the native religion and culture and replace with theirs. Akbar slowed down the barbarism and aggression and promoted tolerance and integration. He stopped the forced conversions, rapes and beheadings of Hindus. He stopped the destruction of temples and libraries. He talked about respecting other religions while following one's own religion. He even took on the mighty Muslim clerics when he abolished a special tax on Hindus based on religion. He was a man of great character, conviction and principles and was utterly fearless. He had affinity for Rajputs and was even born in a Rajput family and spent early years there. He displayed the samskaras and instincts of a refined and cultured Rajput more than those a of Mughal king - he was so unlike his grandfather Babar, father Humayun and step-brother Adham.

He used to offer arghyas to Sun in the morning and then participate in a Zoroastrian fire ritual of Farsis (similar to our homam) and then do a namaz with Muslim clerics. Such tolerance was unheard of from any other Muslim ruler in those days (or perhaps even today!). Towards the end of his life, he even started his own religion, which was based on his realization and is quite noble. He was a spiritually elevated soul. Irrespective of the religion one follows, one deserves our respect and admiration if one embodies the spirit of sanatana dharma in one's thoughts and actions.

Akbar was a true hero - a being who came down from a higher loka to fulfil a certain mission with the blessings of rishis. His contribution to the safekeeping of sanatana dharma is not to be judged from what harm his fellow Muslims inflicted on sanatana dharma. His contribution is to be judged from what *more* harm to sanatana dharma he helped *avoid*. If he had not come, I have no doubt that sanatana dharma would have suffered much much more than it did. That was not the wish of rishis and that is why they sent somebody to alter the course and minimize the harm. It is unfortunate that those who see the goodness of emperor Ashoka and king Shivaji cannot see the goodness of Akbar simply because he was a Muslim.

It is unfortunate that some Hindus are equating Akbar with the other cruel and barbaric Muslim kings. Who should be (was) a friend of Hindus is being portrayed as an enemy and being shot down. Instead, we should promote his story and inspire more people to be like him. He was a great inspirational figure then and should be now too."

by MaxEntropy_Man Fri Nov 08, 2013 6:40 pm

and it's not a question of puritanism. it's a question of musical aesthetics. so the correct thing to say is that not everyone subscribes to my aesthetic notions, and that would be an accurate and acceptable statement. i think rashmun said that upthread. i have no quarrel with that.

by Hellsangel Fri Nov 08, 2013 6:41 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Hellsangel wrote:I don't give a damn one way or another about CM.
when you don't give a damn about something how do you judge another person's opinion?

Oh, you believe you are being judged here, Il Professor-ai, when it is merely pointed out that a lot of people have a different opinion than you?

by Hellsangel Fri Nov 08, 2013 6:42 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:and it's not a question of puritanism. it's a question of musical aesthetics.

That is your opinion.

by MaxEntropy_Man Fri Nov 08, 2013 6:43 pm

Hellsangel wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Hellsangel wrote:I don't give a damn one way or another about CM.
when you don't give a damn about something how do you judge another person's opinion?
Oh, you believe you are being judged here, Il Professor-ai, when it is merely pointed out that a lot of people have a different opinion than you?

i don't mind my opinion being subject to judgment so long as i can agree with the criterion of judgment.

by Hellsangel Fri Nov 08, 2013 6:48 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Hellsangel wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Hellsangel wrote:I don't give a damn one way or another about CM.
when you don't give a damn about something how do you judge another person's opinion?
Oh, you believe you are being judged here, Il Professor-ai, when it is merely pointed out that a lot of people have a different opinion than you?
i don't mind my opinion being subject to judgment so long as i can agree with the criterion of judgment.

It is like beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. Beauty in music is in the ears of the listener. What one person enjoys might just be noise or cacophony to another person. You may not have enjoyed MSS singing in other languages, a lot of people did. Some like me don't care one way or another.

PS: Maybe you sincerely believe your signature line. I was just reading about Ives. Interesting that his work was largely ignored during his life time and that he actually mixed popular music with traditional music.

by MaxEntropy_Man Fri Nov 08, 2013 7:00 pm

Hellsangel wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Hellsangel wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Hellsangel wrote:I don't give a damn one way or another about CM.
when you don't give a damn about something how do you judge another person's opinion?
Oh, you believe you are being judged here, Il Professor-ai, when it is merely pointed out that a lot of people have a different opinion than you?
i don't mind my opinion being subject to judgment so long as i can agree with the criterion of judgment.
It is like beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. Beauty in music is in the ears of the listener. What one person enjoys might just be noise or cacophony to another person. You may not have enjoyed MSS singing in other languages, a lot of people did. Some like me don't care one way or another.

it's obvious that a lot of people who commented on that youtube video disagree with me. so pointing out the obvious is futile. but i do have something substantive to say about what you said right now.

it's not that i don't like her singing in "other" languages. i don't even know what you mean by other languages. after all carnatic compositions exist in all dravidian languages and sanskrit. the reason i don't like these pieces is that they are discordant with the general aesthetics of carnatic music. there is none of the opportunity available for serious exposition of the various aspects of CM - the raga alapana, the kalpanaswarams, the niravals, laya aspects like trikalam etc. it is too bland. let me try and put it in language that you may understand. let's say you've just had a grand belgian tripel. listening to these pieces after a grand RTP is the equivalent of someone thrusting a bud light in your face after the tripel. jarring!

no jazz musician worth his salt will start playing a kenny-g song after a cover of coltrane.

by Hellsangel Fri Nov 08, 2013 7:05 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:it's obvious that a lot of people who commented on that youtube video disagree with me. so pointing out the obvious is futile. but i do have something substantive to say about what you said right now.

it's not that i don't like her singing in "other" languages. i don't even know what you mean by other languages. after all carnatic compositions exist in all dravidian languages and sanskrit. the reason i don't like these pieces is that they are discordant with the general aesthetics of carnatic music. there is none of the opportunity available for serious exposition of the various aspects of CM - the raga alapana, the kalpanaswarams, the niravals, laya aspects like trikalam etc. it is too bland. let me try and put it in language that you may understand. let's say you've just had a grand belgian tripel. listening to these pieces after a grand RTP is the equivalent of someone thrusting a bud light in your face after the tripel. jarring!

no jazz musician worth his salt will start playing a kenny-g song after a cover of coltrane.

That came from

"rajagopalachari did some really weird (and IMO nasty) things like write english hymns and make MSS sing it at the UN concert"

By other languages, I obviously meant in languages other than traditional CM languages, if it wasn't clear.

I may not enjoy bud light. But I know a lot of people do and they probably dislike a Belgian tripel as much as I don't enjoy a bud light. Wrong analogy. And neither they nor I get into the nitty gritty of the hops, the color blah blah and all that in choosing the beer. It is a simple matter of taste.

by MaxEntropy_Man Fri Nov 08, 2013 7:13 pm

i paid to be in a beer festival where i was assured i'll have the opportunity to sample only serious beers. i am happily sailing along sampling the offerings and come upon a slew of tents where they have kegs of bud light, miller light, coors etc. in fact half the offerings at the so called fest or at least a third of it are made up of malarkey like that. am i justified in feeling cheated?

your admission that you don't like bud light makes you a puritanical beer drinker. see how silly that sounds?

by MaxEntropy_Man Fri Nov 08, 2013 7:15 pm

Hellsangel wrote:It is a simple matter of taste.

one of the words closely related to taste, if not an exact synonym is aesthetics.

by Hellsangel Fri Nov 08, 2013 7:22 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:i paid to be in a beer festival where i was assured i'll have the opportunity to sample only serious beers. i am happily sailing along sampling the offerings and come upon a slew of tents where they have kegs of bud light, miller light, coors etc. in fact half the offerings at the so called fest or at least a third of it are made up of malarkey like that. am i justified in feeling cheated?

your admission that you don't like bud light makes you a puritanical beer drinker. see how silly that sounds?

No. But at the same time I don't act like I am a superior beer drinker or act like bud light is somehow inferior. When you start doing that, that is when other people perceive that you have a stick up your ass.

by Hellsangel Fri Nov 08, 2013 7:24 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Hellsangel wrote:It is a simple matter of taste.
one of the words closely related to taste, if not an exact synonym is aesthetics.

When you start breaking it down into all the things that it doesn't conform to like you used in your explanation above, it is no longer just aesthetics but a strict measure of your standards.

by MaxEntropy_Man Fri Nov 08, 2013 7:30 pm

so your problem is not that i say i don't like it, but supplying reasons for why i don't like it? how strange!

by Hellsangel Fri Nov 08, 2013 7:38 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:so your problem is not that i say i don't like it, but supplying reasons for why i don't like it? how strange!

You know very well what I am talking about but you can pretend that it is just a matter of taste and not conformity to strict standards for you.

by bw Sat Nov 09, 2013 12:12 am

here's another rajaji composition.

a lot of tamilians dislike rajaji because he didn't vehemently oppose hindi as any self-respecting tamilian should have. Razz

by MaxEntropy_Man Sat Nov 09, 2013 12:28 am

i dislike rajagopalachari for many reasons.

(1) he wrote lousy english pomes.
(2) his literary style judging from his translation of the two epics, at least in english left a lot to be desired, and yet the oldies don't shut up about him.
(3) and of course he tried to pull a fast one on the hindi thing. unfortunately for him, he got his behind handed to him. he never tried that stunt again.

by Guest Sat Nov 09, 2013 1:31 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:i dislike rajagopalachari for many reasons.

(1) he wrote lousy english pomes.
(2) his literary style judging from his translation of the two epics, at least in english left a lot to be desired, and yet the oldies don't shut up about him.
(3) and of course he tried to pull a fast one on the hindi thing. unfortunately for him, he got his behind handed to him. he never tried that stunt again.

With respect to Hindi, as more and more Tamils are learning the language in TN, history has vindicated Rajaji's view on the issue.

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Sat Nov 09, 2013 1:38 am

Rashmun wrote:
With respect to Hindi, as more and more Tamils are learning the language in TN, history has vindicated Rajaji's view on the issue.

That shows the broad-mindedness of tamilans while the hindi-only hindians exhibit their narrow mindedness.

by Guest Sat Nov 09, 2013 5:21 am

Rashmun wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:i dislike rajagopalachari for many reasons.

(1) he wrote lousy english pomes.
(2) his literary style judging from his translation of the two epics, at least in english left a lot to be desired, and yet the oldies don't shut up about him.
(3) and of course he tried to pull a fast one on the hindi thing. unfortunately for him, he got his behind handed to him. he never tried that stunt again.
With respect to Hindi, as more and more Tamils are learning the language in TN, history has vindicated Rajaji's view on the issue.

I should have added "to some extent" to my previous sentence. Making hindi compulsory was wrong. He should have kept it optional and Tamils would have continued to learn hindi.

by Vakavaka Pakapaka Sat Nov 09, 2013 9:43 am

Rashmun - You may be more successful in imposing Hindi on Telangana. Owaisi wants Urdu to be made the official language of Telangana. Iran wants to start a Persian language institute in Hyderabad after Telangana formation. Is SP contesting in Telangana in 2014? Does Akhilesh speak in Hindi or Urdu?

by Seva Lamberdar Sat Nov 09, 2013 10:23 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:rajagopalachari did some really weird (and IMO nasty) things like write english hymns and make MSS sing it at the UN concert. this is one of the things that MSS did that never worked for me in addition to the meera bhajan stuff.

there aren't too many things that MSS did that i'd label unsahikkable, but this is one of those rare things:

Rajaji's translations of Ramayana and Mahabharata into English are quite good.

by Hellsangel Sat Nov 09, 2013 10:24 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:i dislike rajagopalachari for many reasons.

(1) he wrote lousy english pomes.
(2) his literary style judging from his translation of the two epics, at least in english left a lot to be desired, and yet the oldies don't shut up about him.
(3) and of course he tried to pull a fast one on the hindi thing. unfortunately for him, he got his behind handed to him. he never tried that stunt again.

Ha ha ha. And of course now we know the real and most important reason you ~~hate~~ dislike him.

by MaxEntropy_Man Sat Nov 09, 2013 10:25 am

Seva Lamberdar wrote:Rajaji's translations of Ramayana and Mahabharata into English are quite good.

not a fan of purple prose.

eta: i do like his tamil commentary on the epics -- chakravarthi thirumagan and vyasar virundhu. they are well done.

by MaxEntropy_Man Sat Nov 09, 2013 10:27 am

Hellsangel wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:i dislike rajagopalachari for many reasons.

(1) he wrote lousy english pomes.
(2) his literary style judging from his translation of the two epics, at least in english left a lot to be desired, and yet the oldies don't shut up about him.
(3) and of course he tried to pull a fast one on the hindi thing. unfortunately for him, he got his behind handed to him. he never tried that stunt again.
Ha ha ha. And of course now we know the real and most important reason you ~~hate~~ dislike him.

yeah not a fan of petty despots.

by Rishi Sat Nov 09, 2013 11:23 am

>>> I hate Rajaji for one particular reason. The man had no compassion. I wonder whether he was that intelligent as some people claim him to be.

When he was the Chief Minister, he laid off people who worked for the state government rather than presenting a deficit budget. He did not think about the families of the employees who were going to be on the streets. Especially when the government was almost the only employer, this moron did not think about the adverse effects of his decision.

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Sat Nov 09, 2013 12:24 pm

Rishi wrote:>>> I hate Rajaji for one particular reason. The man had no compassion. I wonder whether he was that intelligent as some people claim him to be.

When he was the Chief Minister, he laid off people who worked for the state government rather than presenting a deficit budget. He did not think about the families of the employees who were going to be on the streets. Especially when the government was almost the only employer, this moron did not think about the adverse effects of his decision.

I did not like him or his Swatantara party much, but it was the only alternative to CONcrass. It was the Tea Party of India - he was decades ahead of the US right wingers. Patel philosophies were similar to his. If Patel had become the PM, things certainly would have been different today - economically, demographically, politically. With all said and done Lord ji is very much in the same mold - except the casteism. An effect of the RSS connection. No wonder Goldman sachs upped the expectation on India making CONcrass angry.

by Kris Sat Nov 09, 2013 2:16 pm

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:
Rishi wrote:>>> I hate Rajaji for one particular reason. The man had no compassion. I wonder whether he was that intelligent as some people claim him to be.

When he was the Chief Minister, he laid off people who worked for the state government rather than presenting a deficit budget. He did not think about the families of the employees who were going to be on the streets. Especially when the government was almost the only employer, this moron did not think about the adverse effects of his decision.
I did not like him or his Swatantara party much, but it was the only alternative to CONcrass. It was the Tea Party of India - he was decades ahead of the US right wingers. Patel philosophies were similar to his. If Patel had become the PM, things certainly would have been different today - economically, demographically, politically. With all said and done Lord ji is very much in the same mold - except the casteism. An effect of the RSS connection. No wonder Goldman sachs upped the expectation on India making CONcrass angry.

>>>Patel did not live very long after independence. I am not sure how much of a difference he would have made. Patel/Rajaji's right leaning views would have taken time to get traction. The Nehru paradigm probably made sense in the initial stages. It is just that it overstayed its welcome past the 70s.

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Sat Nov 09, 2013 2:31 pm

Kris wrote:>>>Patel did not live very long after independence. I am not sure how much of a difference he would have made. Patel/Rajaji's right leaning views would have taken time to get traction. The Nehru paradigm probably made sense in the initial stages. It is just that it overstayed its welcome past the 70s.

At the least there might not have been a Dynasty. There would have been no Kashmir problem. With India in control of Complete Indus, Pakisaitan would be begging to India. If e had not taken care of Hyderabad and Junagadh, We would be having 2 other major headaches.

In any case, the 1991 would have happened in 1947 - at the minimum.

by ashdoc Sat Nov 09, 2013 4:38 pm

Rashmun wrote:http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/lead/the-great-akbar-of-independence-struggle/article5326492.ece?homepage=true

Naturally you will have a high opinion of Rajaji now Wink

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Sat Nov 09, 2013 8:09 pm

ashdoc wrote:
Rashmun wrote:http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/lead/the-great-akbar-of-independence-struggle/article5326492.ece?homepage=true
Naturally you will have a high opinion of Rajaji now

Of course....easy to make Maulana Rashmunullah Akbari very happy...just as it was easy with the Moghuls...

Just say "Tamil is great" or better LTTE is honest and KV will issue a fatwa not to harm you ever, and you say Hindi is great Rashmunullah will exempt you from all Fuckwas.

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