Vienna Convention on Consular Relations 1963

by confuzzled dude Sat Dec 21, 2013 10:19 am

Article 47

Exemption from work permits

1.Members of the consular post shall, with respect to services rendered for the sending State, be exempt from any obligations in regard to work permits imposed by the laws and regulations of the receiving State concerning the employment of foreign labour.

2.Members of the private staff of consular officers and of consular employees shall, if they do not carry on any other gainful occupation in the receiving State, be exempt from the obligations referred to in paragraph 1 of this article.

http://legal.un.org/ilc/texts/instruments/english/conventions/9_2_1963.pdf

-> Not sure this is applicable to only those with full diplomatic immunity. In any event, given recent trend with the mistreatment of maids (in some cases perceived), they probably should revise them and come up with new guidelines.

by truthbetold Sat Dec 21, 2013 11:09 am

Usa state Dept will interpret Vienna conv as narrowly as it pleases inside Usa and as broadly as possible abroad according to Indian analyst Brahma chellany.
so maids are not included.

Cd,
going by Usa legal standards devyani clearly broke the law at the time of visa application and subsequently during wage payments. The issue is now widely publicized in Usa and India. Even if we ignore self righteous Indian Americans, there is no sympathy for devyani or Indian govt logic among usa public opinion.

Only way out is a backdoor resolution after tempers cooled down. Even then problem is complicated by devyani's desire to stay in Usa with her family. Usa is not likelyto agree for her to stay in Usa after any compromise.

by confuzzled dude Sat Dec 21, 2013 11:23 am

truthbetold wrote:Usa state Dept will interpret Vienna conv as narrowly as it pleases inside Usa and as broadly as possible abroad according to Indian analyst Brahma chellany.
so maids are not included.

Cd,
going by Usa legal standards devyani clearly broke the law at the time of visa application and subsequently during wage payments. The issue is now widely publicized in Usa and India. Even if we ignore self righteous Indian Americans, there is no sympathy for devyani or Indian govt logic among usa public opinion.

Only way out is a backdoor resolution after tempers cooled down. Even then problem is complicated by devyani's desire to stay in Usa with her family. Usa is not likelyto agree for her to stay in Usa after any compromise.

So, she was posted here so she can join her family, Really? Are we sure that her husband is a US citizen, she met him in Germany, per WaPo.

I agree with rest of your post about backdoor resolution being the only option at this point.

by truthbetold Sat Dec 21, 2013 11:46 am

My info is based on news reports and her desire to fight even after us authorities got involved. She could have or should have gone out of Usa in September.

by Kris Sat Dec 21, 2013 11:53 am

truthbetold wrote:Usa state Dept will interpret Vienna conv as narrowly as it pleases inside Usa and as broadly as possible abroad according to Indian analyst Brahma chellany.
so maids are not included.

Cd,
going by Usa legal standards devyani clearly broke the law at the time of visa application and subsequently during wage payments. The issue is now widely publicized in Usa and India. Even if we ignore self righteous Indian Americans, there is no sympathy for devyani or Indian govt logic among usa public opinion.

Only way out is a backdoor resolution after tempers cooled down. Even then problem is complicated by devyani's desire to stay in Usa with her family. Usa is not likelyto agree for her to stay in Usa after any compromise.

>>>The 'back door' here may turn out to be the UN posting, which gives her full immunity. While the US has indicated that does not work retroactively, they can't put her on trial while she has that immunity. Of course, she will get re-posted out of the US soon. With the lapse of time, this whole issue goes off the radar and the US may simply decide not to prosecute or keeps the option open to try her whenever she comes back (sans the UN immunity). Its not like she is going to lose sleep over this prospect or has any shame associated with this. Problem solved.

by confuzzled dude Sat Dec 21, 2013 11:58 am

Kris wrote:

>>>The 'back door' here may turn out to be the UN posting, which gives her full immunity. While the US has indicated that does not work retroactively, they can't put her on trial while she has that immunity. Of course, she will get re-posted out of the US soon. With the lapse of time, this whole issue goes off the radar and the US may simply decide not to prosecute or keeps the option open to try her whenever she comes back (sans the UN immunity). Its not like she is going to lose sleep over this prospect or has any shame associated with this. Problem solved.

I hear they can only withdraw the case in a month, if it goes beyond that they will have to proceed with prosecution, not even White House can stop it.

by Kris Sat Dec 21, 2013 12:04 pm

confuzzled dude wrote:
Kris wrote:

>>>The 'back door' here may turn out to be the UN posting, which gives her full immunity. While the US has indicated that does not work retroactively, they can't put her on trial while she has that immunity. Of course, she will get re-posted out of the US soon. With the lapse of time, this whole issue goes off the radar and the US may simply decide not to prosecute or keeps the option open to try her whenever she comes back (sans the UN immunity). Its not like she is going to lose sleep over this prospect or has any shame associated with this. Problem solved.

I hear they can only withdraw the case in a month, if it goes beyond that they will have to proceed with prosecution, not even White House can stop it.

>>They can try her, but I think the diplomatic immunity will prevent them from being able to haul her into a court. Quite simply, if she refuses to comply, they won't be able to charge her with obstruction of justice because of her full immunity.

by confuzzled dude Sat Dec 21, 2013 12:05 pm

truthbetold wrote:My info is based on news reports and her desire to fight even after us authorities got involved. She could have or should have gone out of Usa in September.

It happened for some good or else everyone would've thought this is another case of usual mistreatment of maid by a diplomat, which clearly is not. Also, she is either naive or foolish, why did she meet the maid's lawyier without a lawyier of her own.

by truthbetold Sat Dec 21, 2013 12:11 pm

Kris,
Your UN solution is a possibility. That is close to what India is likely to propose. That may still ruffle bharara and state Dept feathers. That can happen if someone like Kerry says I want this issue resolved .

If Kerry decides to stay away from this, then egos will clash and solution will be muddled. Some people including bharara may want some punishment to devyani in the form of restriction on her to enter Usa.

Whatever may be the resolution of devyani case, India must be forced to clean up this murky deal on domestic help. If you can't pay shut the damn embassy or consulate office and fallow the law and do not put your staff in delicate situations.

by Kris Sat Dec 21, 2013 12:12 pm

truthbetold wrote:My info is based on news reports and her desire to fight even after us authorities got involved. She could have or should have gone out of Usa in September.

>>.She may have thought she had full diplomatic immunity. I think the Indian ambassador or someone high up would have been given a heads-up on this iissue being on the radar. Of course, those guys either didn't take it seriously or were just asleep at the wheel.

by truthbetold Sat Dec 21, 2013 12:13 pm

confuzzled dude wrote:
truthbetold wrote:My info is based on news reports and her desire to fight even after us authorities got involved. She could have or should have gone out of Usa in September.

It happened for some good or else everyone would've thought this is another case of usual mistreatment of maid by a diplomat, which clearly is not. Also, she is either naive or foolish, why did she meet the maid's lawyier without a lawyier of her own.

What have you got against the noble profession of lawyers?

by Guest Sat Dec 21, 2013 12:21 pm

truthbetold wrote:
Only way out is a backdoor resolution after tempers cooled down. Even then problem is complicated by devyani's desire to stay in Usa with her family. Usa is not likelyto agree for her to stay in Usa after any compromise.

Even after all this, she still wants to stay in US? That's a slap on the face to India Razz

.

By transferring her to the UN posting so she can be granted total immunity, India is showing the world how the rich and the influencial in india dodge the law.

by Kris Sat Dec 21, 2013 12:22 pm

truthbetold wrote:Kris,
Your UN solution is a possibility. That is close to what India is likely to propose. That may still ruffle bharara and state Dept feathers. That can happen if someone like Kerry says I want this issue resolved .

If Kerry decides to stay away from this, then egos will clash and solution will be muddled. Some people including bharara may want some punishment to devyani in the form of restriction on her to enter Usa.

Whatever may be the resolution of devyani case, India must be forced to clean up this murky deal on domestic help. If you can't pay shut the damn embassy or consulate office and fallow the law and do not put your staff in delicate situations.

>>>Bharara is small potatoes at this juncture given how this thing has blown up. Yeah, he may be able to save face if she is declared persona non grata in the US, which she can circumvent with the UN visa anytime, assuming she has a need or desire to come here. The diplomatic corps will probably be a bit more careful on this maid business in the future in the US, but I doubt that there is going to be any introspection on this issue. For that matter, the US diplomats likely have their own skeletons in the closet in this department, in various parts of the world.

by Kris Sat Dec 21, 2013 12:25 pm

Kinnera wrote:
truthbetold wrote:
Only way out is a backdoor resolution after tempers cooled down. Even then problem is complicated by devyani's desire to stay in Usa with her family. Usa is not likelyto agree for her to stay in Usa after any compromise.
Even after all this, she still wants to stay in US? That's a slap on the face to India .

By transferring her to the UN posting so she can be granted total immunity, India is showing the world how the rich and the influencial in india dodge the law.

>>>If she wants to stay in the US, there may be some family considerations. I am sure there are all kinds of plum alternatives for her.

by truthbetold Sat Dec 21, 2013 12:54 pm

Kris wrote:
truthbetold wrote:My info is based on news reports and her desire to fight even after us authorities got involved. She could have or should have gone out of Usa in September.
>>.She may have thought she had full diplomatic immunity. I think the Indian ambassador or someone high up would have been given a heads-up on this iissue being on the radar. Of course, those guys either didn't take it seriously or were just asleep at the wheel.

Yes. Indian mes is probably both asleep and made erroneous judgement call that Usa will not act on Indian embassy staff. Boy were they wrong.
Usa took sangeetha's complaint seriously, got information from India, arranged for family members be taken out despite or probably because of court proceedings in India, and went after devyani two days after sangeeta family reunion.
Once arrested instincvely noise was made but now really high level Usa leaders have to get involved.

You mentioned other plum posts. Other than un mission or un post, what other plum posts are available? It should also get her diplomatic immunity also.

by Kris Sat Dec 21, 2013 1:38 pm

truthbetold wrote:
Kris wrote:
truthbetold wrote:My info is based on news reports and her desire to fight even after us authorities got involved. She could have or should have gone out of Usa in September.
>>.She may have thought she had full diplomatic immunity. I think the Indian ambassador or someone high up would have been given a heads-up on this iissue being on the radar. Of course, those guys either didn't take it seriously or were just asleep at the wheel.

Yes. Indian mes is probably both asleep and made erroneous judgement call that Usa will not act on Indian embassy staff. Boy were they wrong.
Usa took sangeetha's complaint seriously, got information from India, arranged for family members be taken out despite or probably because of court proceedings in India, and went after devyani two days after sangeeta family reunion.
Once arrested instincvely noise was made but now really high level Usa leaders have to get involved.

You mentioned other plum posts. Other than un mission or un post, what other plum posts are available? It should also get her diplomatic immunity also.

>>>The diplomatic immunity aspect should not be an issue. A lot of countries are pretty lax about enforcement of these types of laws anyway, when it comes to diplomats. It is a 'you scratch my back, I scratch yours' kinda thing. Bharara's naivete notwithstanding, the US diplomats themselves have these types of skeletons in their closet, which is why India's threat to look into the resident US diplomatic staff's doings is not hollow and the State Dept is not oblivious to this. The compensation structures of the Indian diplomats is pretty weird, based on what I remember from my interactions with some of them in the past. The pay scale is likely not adjusted that much when they go on these postings. So, your money goes a lot, lot farther in a place like ithan in England, for instance. If you want to look at it from a purely cultural perspective, Europe (somewhere like Rome/Madrid) would be a lot more appealing, even if the money doesn't go far (this is assuming the person is a culture-vulture). One of the cultural attaches that I had lunch with complained about San Francisco(!) and waxed eloquent about his stint in Rome.

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Sat Dec 21, 2013 1:56 pm

..In all probability, the State will ensure the case is closed before or in the court itself. The Judge might use one of various loopholes to throw out the case and help everything resolve itself without anyone's interference. That way, everyone can claim the system worked and US, Baraara, India all can claim victory. Bcz, the alternative has bad consequences - with elections looming in India - except Congress everyone will whip up the passion and congress will be forced to retaliate - whether it like it or not. Also, the world and the entire diplomatic core (everyone has cheap/free housemaids) will be smirking at the US law going after a diplomat of a friendly country for underpaying a maid...

seriously...it looks downright silly.

by confuzzled dude Sat Dec 21, 2013 4:03 pm

Kinnera wrote:
truthbetold wrote:
Only way out is a backdoor resolution after tempers cooled down. Even then problem is complicated by devyani's desire to stay in Usa with her family. Usa is not likelyto agree for her to stay in Usa after any compromise.
Even after all this, she still wants to stay in US? That's a slap on the face to India .

By transferring her to the UN posting so she can be granted total immunity, India is showing the world how the rich and the influencial in india dodge the law.

Are we suggesting that if Kinnera or Confuzzled dude as a Deputy Consulate General got into trouble Indian Govt. would've let her/him rot in US jail for 15 years. I don't think I buy that argument.

by Guest Sat Dec 21, 2013 4:44 pm

confuzzled dude wrote:
Kinnera wrote:
truthbetold wrote:
Only way out is a backdoor resolution after tempers cooled down. Even then problem is complicated by devyani's desire to stay in Usa with her family. Usa is not likelyto agree for her to stay in Usa after any compromise.
Even after all this, she still wants to stay in US? That's a slap on the face to India .

By transferring her to the UN posting so she can be granted total immunity, India is showing the world how the rich and the influencial in india dodge the law.

Are we suggesting that if Kinnera or Confuzzled dude as a Deputy Consulate General got into trouble Indian Govt. would've let her/him rot in US jail for 15 years. I don't think I buy that argument.

Deputy Consulate General=an influencial position. Of course, India wouldn't let you or me rot in jail if we were in that position. It won't give a hoot if it were someone else. Remember the indian couple who was sentenced for abusing their son in norway? They are languishing in jail, fyi.

If I were a Deputy Consulate General, i wouldn't be stupid enough to lie on the visa application, btw. As someone working in the consulate office, i should know better.

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