An interesting theory, and some other facts, on the reason for brahmin migration into South India especially Tamil Nadu

by Guest Mon Dec 30, 2013 3:53 am

According to reputed historians , in the hoary past Tamil Nadu was occupied by a very cultured people whose religion was perhaps different from Hinduism. They did not have the Chaturvarnyam among them but had different caste groups. To this country the Brahmanas of North India migrated. This according to historians took place when the Maurya Kings were ruling India, the reason being the new religious revolutions in the north started by Gautama the Buddha and Mahavira Vardhamana which found favour with the kings. The Brahmana migration was in waves and many of them settled down in present telugu country and some of them reached Tamil Nadu.The first groups to migrate to Tamil Nadu were the pro-Shukra Brahmanas who were followers of Lord Shiva and the last few waves were the Pro-Brihaspati Brahmanas who were mainly followers of Lord Vishnu. Historians believe that at that time there were differences between Saivites and Vaishnavites but was very minimal.

Tamil Nadu (i.e the three great kingdoms of Chozha, Pandya and Chera) welcomed these new migrants with open hands. The stories of the migration of Agasthya(a Brahmin saint of North India) and his being the founder of the river Cauvery are chronicled in ancient Tamil myth. His disciple Tholkappiyar , who is definitely a historical figure wrote the first book in Tamil viz. Tholkappiyam.This book clearly mentions the existence of Brahmanas in Tamil Nadu. There is some evidence pointing out to Tholkappiyar himself being a Brahmin. They were initially called Anthanars or Parpaars or aravor or vediyars. Tholkappiyam also mentions the word Aiyar in one place.

The kings of Tamil Nadu were attracted by these learned pundits and made them their Asans or teachers. They also gave these teachers several powers. Apart from this several villages were given to them as grants free of cost and free of tax .These were called Brahmodayams or Chadurvedimangalams. Possibly in a much later period they were renamed Agraharams.Though new to the culture and language these new migrants learned the language of the country and the ancient books mention many great poets among them in the courts of some very famous kings. These early migrants also brought the concept of Gothras. Bharadwaja, Koundinya, Kasyapa, Kaushika and Atreya Gothras are mentioned in the early sangam literature. They initially did not name themselves as they do in modern times after the Gods they worship but tended to use their Gothra in their names. Some of the examples of the early names were Kauniyan Vinnantayan (Kaundinya), Palai Gautamanar (Gautama), Ilankausikanar (Kausika) ,Kallil Athreyanar(Atreya) , Bharadwaji Nachinarkiniyanar (Bharadwaja) and so on.

They were strict vegetarians, teetotalers and spoke a specialized dialect of Tamil among themselves. Their houses had a “well-washed-scrubbed-courtyard” and mostly a cow and a calf were tied to a post in front of their houses and dog and fowls were assiduously kept out. The Brahmin of those times had six fold duties viz. learning of Vedic texts, teaching of Vedas, performing yagnas(called velvi in Tamil) , helping others perform yagnas, giving of gifts and taking of gifts. Among the earliest schools of Vedas started by them were the Ghatika in Kanchi and the Vedic School in a village called Ennayiram near present day Pondycheri.. The sangam literature mentions about a famous Brahmana named Punjarurkavunian Vinnandayan who is supposed to have performed many Vedic sacrifices during those times.

They also took lot of interest in developing Tamil Literature. Among the well known Brahmana poets of that time were Nakkerar, Kapilar, Nachinarkiniyar, Tayam Kannanar and so on. Though representatives of the Vedic learning they also took very active part in the Bhakti movement of the ancient Tamil Nadu. Among the great saints were Nambi andar Nambi , Nadamuni, Sambandar, Sundarar, Kungilyakalayanar, and many others.

http://rajathathablog.blogspot.com/2008/10/brahmins-of-tamil-nadu.html

by Guest Mon Dec 30, 2013 4:04 am

Was the first book on Tamil grammar the work of a North Indian (immigrant to Tamil Nadu)?

-----
This notion of the Vindhya’s bowing to Agastya is associated with the migration of the ARYANS and particularly the BRAHMINS to South India. Agastya is venerated in the south of India, where he is said to have been the first to organize the Tamil grammar. Tolkappiyar, the author of the oldest known Tamil grammar, is considered one of Agastya’s 12 students.

http://hinduism.enacademic.com/27/Agastya

by Kris Mon Dec 30, 2013 5:29 am

Rashmun wrote:According to reputed historians , in the hoary past Tamil Nadu was occupied by a very cultured people whose religion was perhaps different from Hinduism. They did not have the Chaturvarnyam among them but had different caste groups. To this country the Brahmanas of North India migrated. This according to historians took place when the Maurya Kings were ruling India, the reason being the new religious revolutions in the north started by Gautama the Buddha and Mahavira Vardhamana which found favour with the kings. The Brahmana migration was in waves and many of them settled down in present telugu country and some of them reached Tamil Nadu.The first groups to migrate to Tamil Nadu were the pro-Shukra Brahmanas who were followers of Lord Shiva and the last few waves were the Pro-Brihaspati Brahmanas who were mainly followers of Lord Vishnu. Historians believe that at that time there were differences between Saivites and Vaishnavites but was very minimal.

Tamil Nadu (i.e the three great kingdoms of Chozha, Pandya and Chera) welcomed these new migrants with open hands. The stories of the migration of Agasthya(a Brahmin saint of North India) and his being the founder of the river Cauvery are chronicled in ancient Tamil myth. His disciple Tholkappiyar , who is definitely a historical figure wrote the first book in Tamil viz. Tholkappiyam.This book clearly mentions the existence of Brahmanas in Tamil Nadu. There is some evidence pointing out to Tholkappiyar himself being a Brahmin. They were initially called Anthanars or Parpaars or aravor or vediyars. Tholkappiyam also mentions the word Aiyar in one place.

The kings of Tamil Nadu were attracted by these learned pundits and made them their Asans or teachers. They also gave these teachers several powers. Apart from this several villages were given to them as grants free of cost and free of tax .These were called Brahmodayams or Chadurvedimangalams. Possibly in a much later period they were renamed Agraharams.Though new to the culture and language these new migrants learned the language of the country and the ancient books mention many great poets among them in the courts of some very famous kings. These early migrants also brought the concept of Gothras. Bharadwaja, Koundinya, Kasyapa, Kaushika and Atreya Gothras are mentioned in the early sangam literature. They initially did not name themselves as they do in modern times after the Gods they worship but tended to use their Gothra in their names. Some of the examples of the early names were Kauniyan Vinnantayan (Kaundinya), Palai Gautamanar (Gautama), Ilankausikanar (Kausika) ,Kallil Athreyanar(Atreya) , Bharadwaji Nachinarkiniyanar (Bharadwaja) and so on.

They were strict vegetarians, teetotalers and spoke a specialized dialect of Tamil among themselves. Their houses had a “well-washed-scrubbed-courtyard” and mostly a cow and a calf were tied to a post in front of their houses and dog and fowls were assiduously kept out. The Brahmin of those times had six fold duties viz. learning of Vedic texts, teaching of Vedas, performing yagnas(called velvi in Tamil) , helping others perform yagnas, giving of gifts and taking of gifts. Among the earliest schools of Vedas started by them were the Ghatika in Kanchi and the Vedic School in a village called Ennayiram near present day Pondycheri.. The sangam literature mentions about a famous Brahmana named Punjarurkavunian Vinnandayan who is supposed to have performed many Vedic sacrifices during those times.

They also took lot of interest in developing Tamil Literature. Among the well known Brahmana poets of that time were Nakkerar, Kapilar, Nachinarkiniyar, Tayam Kannanar and so on. Though representatives of the Vedic learning they also took very active part in the Bhakti movement of the ancient Tamil Nadu. Among the great saints were Nambi andar Nambi , Nadamuni, Sambandar, Sundarar, Kungilyakalayanar, and many others.

http://rajathathablog.blogspot.com/2008/10/brahmins-of-tamil-nadu.html

>>> Interesting article. Thanks. I have come across similar theories of kings importing Brahmins and giving them benefits in exchange for their endorsement.

by Rishi Mon Dec 30, 2013 6:50 am

The groups’ rise was due to their early interaction with the English. The English wanted to communicate with the locals. And they easily identified the Tamil Brahmin for this job. They first taught him English and employed him to help them talk with the locals. Identifying their administrative genius as well as devotion to their masters, they employed them in all sort of jobs. This was perhaps the main reason , why we find the Brahmanas of today a very educated lot. They made a mark in whichever field they got interested. If a list of all time greats in Tamil nadu were compiled about 50% of them would be brahmanas. Recently the Tamil Nadu Brahmin association has compiled to who is who among Tamil Brahmanas and this 1000 paged volume has not even covered 50% of those eminent people. A feeble attempt is made here to indicate some great people here and possibly represent .001% of the great Tamil Brahmanas.

>>>> Whatever stated in the above paragraph may be factual, this is what clearly invokes the resentment and hatred of the OBC, BC groups in TN. Their contention is brahmins got ahead by discriminating them.

by truthbetold Mon Dec 30, 2013 9:00 am

Rishi,
this is damming evidence. So the northindian hating hindi denigrating Tamil regional chavuinist is actually one of those northindians. Even worse his ancestors could have been from some utter pradesh village.

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Dec 30, 2013 9:17 am

truthbetold wrote:Rishi,
this is damming evidence. So the northindian hating hindi denigrating Tamil regional chavuinist is actually one of those northindians. Even worse his ancestors could have been from some utter pradesh village.

a) a few statements based on some idle musings of a retired person do not become evidence. what he says may well be true, but this blog does not qualify as evidence.

b) there are no hindi haters. there are haters of a certain human attitude on matters regarding language.

c) everyone's ancestors came from somewhere. everyone migrated. every one of us living on this planet today for instance have an ancestral connection to africa. how we self identify is a matter of what our heart tells us. this gentleman belongs to my father's generation. i have already written at length elsewhere about how some tamil brahmins of that generation have an ambivalent relationship with tamil based on their experiences with the dravidian movement.

by Vakavaka Pakapaka Mon Dec 30, 2013 12:08 pm

by Guest Mon Dec 30, 2013 12:19 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
truthbetold wrote:Rishi,
this is damming evidence. So the northindian hating hindi denigrating Tamil regional chavuinist is actually one of those northindians. Even worse his ancestors could have been from some utter pradesh village.

a) a few statements based on some idle musings of a retired person do not become evidence. what he says may well be true, but this blog does not qualify as evidence.

b) there are no hindi haters. there are haters of a certain human attitude on matters regarding language.

c) everyone's ancestors came from somewhere. everyone migrated. every one of us living on this planet today for instance have an ancestral connection to africa. how we self identify is a matter of what our heart tells us. this gentleman belongs to my father's generation. i have already written at length elsewhere about how some tamil brahmins of that generation have an ambivalent relationship with tamil based on their experiences with the dravidian movement.

He has clarified in his blog post that what he is saying is based on what 'reputed historians' are saying on this subject.

by Guest Mon Dec 30, 2013 12:22 pm

Kris wrote:
Rashmun wrote:According to reputed historians , in the hoary past Tamil Nadu was occupied by a very cultured people whose religion was perhaps different from Hinduism. They did not have the Chaturvarnyam among them but had different caste groups. To this country the Brahmanas of North India migrated. This according to historians took place when the Maurya Kings were ruling India, the reason being the new religious revolutions in the north started by Gautama the Buddha and Mahavira Vardhamana which found favour with the kings. The Brahmana migration was in waves and many of them settled down in present telugu country and some of them reached Tamil Nadu.The first groups to migrate to Tamil Nadu were the pro-Shukra Brahmanas who were followers of Lord Shiva and the last few waves were the Pro-Brihaspati Brahmanas who were mainly followers of Lord Vishnu. Historians believe that at that time there were differences between Saivites and Vaishnavites but was very minimal.

Tamil Nadu (i.e the three great kingdoms of Chozha, Pandya and Chera) welcomed these new migrants with open hands. The stories of the migration of Agasthya(a Brahmin saint of North India) and his being the founder of the river Cauvery are chronicled in ancient Tamil myth. His disciple Tholkappiyar , who is definitely a historical figure wrote the first book in Tamil viz. Tholkappiyam.This book clearly mentions the existence of Brahmanas in Tamil Nadu. There is some evidence pointing out to Tholkappiyar himself being a Brahmin. They were initially called Anthanars or Parpaars or aravor or vediyars. Tholkappiyam also mentions the word Aiyar in one place.

The kings of Tamil Nadu were attracted by these learned pundits and made them their Asans or teachers. They also gave these teachers several powers. Apart from this several villages were given to them as grants free of cost and free of tax .These were called Brahmodayams or Chadurvedimangalams. Possibly in a much later period they were renamed Agraharams.Though new to the culture and language these new migrants learned the language of the country and the ancient books mention many great poets among them in the courts of some very famous kings. These early migrants also brought the concept of Gothras. Bharadwaja, Koundinya, Kasyapa, Kaushika and Atreya Gothras are mentioned in the early sangam literature. They initially did not name themselves as they do in modern times after the Gods they worship but tended to use their Gothra in their names. Some of the examples of the early names were Kauniyan Vinnantayan (Kaundinya), Palai Gautamanar (Gautama), Ilankausikanar (Kausika) ,Kallil Athreyanar(Atreya) , Bharadwaji Nachinarkiniyanar (Bharadwaja) and so on.

They were strict vegetarians, teetotalers and spoke a specialized dialect of Tamil among themselves. Their houses had a “well-washed-scrubbed-courtyard” and mostly a cow and a calf were tied to a post in front of their houses and dog and fowls were assiduously kept out. The Brahmin of those times had six fold duties viz. learning of Vedic texts, teaching of Vedas, performing yagnas(called velvi in Tamil) , helping others perform yagnas, giving of gifts and taking of gifts. Among the earliest schools of Vedas started by them were the Ghatika in Kanchi and the Vedic School in a village called Ennayiram near present day Pondycheri.. The sangam literature mentions about a famous Brahmana named Punjarurkavunian Vinnandayan who is supposed to have performed many Vedic sacrifices during those times.

They also took lot of interest in developing Tamil Literature. Among the well known Brahmana poets of that time were Nakkerar, Kapilar, Nachinarkiniyar, Tayam Kannanar and so on. Though representatives of the Vedic learning they also took very active part in the Bhakti movement of the ancient Tamil Nadu. Among the great saints were Nambi andar Nambi , Nadamuni, Sambandar, Sundarar, Kungilyakalayanar, and many others.

http://rajathathablog.blogspot.com/2008/10/brahmins-of-tamil-nadu.html
>>> Interesting article. Thanks. I have come across similar theories of kings importing Brahmins and giving them benefits in exchange for their endorsement.

I also had heard this 'importing brahmins and giving them benefits' theory but this was the first time i came across the theory that the growing popularity of Budhism and Jainism (with even the kings of north india extending patronage to the new religions) were responsible for the brahmin migration.
On another note can any of you shed more light on the sage Agasthya? Have you heard of him before?

by truthbetold Mon Dec 30, 2013 1:07 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
truthbetold wrote:Rishi,
this is damming evidence. So the northindian hating hindi denigrating Tamil regional chavuinist is actually one of those northindians. Even worse his ancestors could have been from some utter pradesh village.

a) a few statements based on some idle musings of a retired person do not become evidence. what he says may well be true, but this blog does not qualify as evidence.

b) there are no hindi haters. there are haters of a certain human attitude on matters regarding language.

c) everyone's ancestors came from somewhere. everyone migrated. every one of us living on this planet today for instance have an ancestral connection to africa. how we self identify is a matter of what our heart tells us. this gentleman belongs to my father's generation. i have already written at length elsewhere about how some tamil brahmins of that generation have an ambivalent relationship with tamil based on their experiences with the dravidian movement.

You pretty well know we both are not making our cases based on this article.
the question was "why do you hate your own ancestors still living in utter pradesh? Why all those unsupported insults?"

by confuzzled dude Mon Dec 30, 2013 1:14 pm

truthbetold wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
truthbetold wrote:Rishi,
this is damming evidence. So the northindian hating hindi denigrating Tamil regional chavuinist is actually one of those northindians. Even worse his ancestors could have been from some utter pradesh village.

a) a few statements based on some idle musings of a retired person do not become evidence. what he says may well be true, but this blog does not qualify as evidence.

b) there are no hindi haters. there are haters of a certain human attitude on matters regarding language.

c) everyone's ancestors came from somewhere. everyone migrated. every one of us living on this planet today for instance have an ancestral connection to africa. how we self identify is a matter of what our heart tells us. this gentleman belongs to my father's generation. i have already written at length elsewhere about how some tamil brahmins of that generation have an ambivalent relationship with tamil based on their experiences with the dravidian movement.

You pretty well know we both are not making our cases based on this article.
the question was "why do you hate your own ancestors still living in utter pradesh? Why all those unsupported insults?"

Don't they say Brahmins are descendants of Jews.

by Kris Mon Dec 30, 2013 1:16 pm

Rashmun wrote:
Kris wrote:
Rashmun wrote:According to reputed historians , in the hoary past Tamil Nadu was occupied by a very cultured people whose religion was perhaps different from Hinduism. They did not have the Chaturvarnyam among them but had different caste groups. To this country the Brahmanas of North India migrated. This according to historians took place when the Maurya Kings were ruling India, the reason being the new religious revolutions in the north started by Gautama the Buddha and Mahavira Vardhamana which found favour with the kings. The Brahmana migration was in waves and many of them settled down in present telugu country and some of them reached Tamil Nadu.The first groups to migrate to Tamil Nadu were the pro-Shukra Brahmanas who were followers of Lord Shiva and the last few waves were the Pro-Brihaspati Brahmanas who were mainly followers of Lord Vishnu. Historians believe that at that time there were differences between Saivites and Vaishnavites but was very minimal.

Tamil Nadu (i.e the three great kingdoms of Chozha, Pandya and Chera) welcomed these new migrants with open hands. The stories of the migration of Agasthya(a Brahmin saint of North India) and his being the founder of the river Cauvery are chronicled in ancient Tamil myth. His disciple Tholkappiyar , who is definitely a historical figure wrote the first book in Tamil viz. Tholkappiyam.This book clearly mentions the existence of Brahmanas in Tamil Nadu. There is some evidence pointing out to Tholkappiyar himself being a Brahmin. They were initially called Anthanars or Parpaars or aravor or vediyars. Tholkappiyam also mentions the word Aiyar in one place.

The kings of Tamil Nadu were attracted by these learned pundits and made them their Asans or teachers. They also gave these teachers several powers. Apart from this several villages were given to them as grants free of cost and free of tax .These were called Brahmodayams or Chadurvedimangalams. Possibly in a much later period they were renamed Agraharams.Though new to the culture and language these new migrants learned the language of the country and the ancient books mention many great poets among them in the courts of some very famous kings. These early migrants also brought the concept of Gothras. Bharadwaja, Koundinya, Kasyapa, Kaushika and Atreya Gothras are mentioned in the early sangam literature. They initially did not name themselves as they do in modern times after the Gods they worship but tended to use their Gothra in their names. Some of the examples of the early names were Kauniyan Vinnantayan (Kaundinya), Palai Gautamanar (Gautama), Ilankausikanar (Kausika) ,Kallil Athreyanar(Atreya) , Bharadwaji Nachinarkiniyanar (Bharadwaja) and so on.

They were strict vegetarians, teetotalers and spoke a specialized dialect of Tamil among themselves. Their houses had a “well-washed-scrubbed-courtyard” and mostly a cow and a calf were tied to a post in front of their houses and dog and fowls were assiduously kept out. The Brahmin of those times had six fold duties viz. learning of Vedic texts, teaching of Vedas, performing yagnas(called velvi in Tamil) , helping others perform yagnas, giving of gifts and taking of gifts. Among the earliest schools of Vedas started by them were the Ghatika in Kanchi and the Vedic School in a village called Ennayiram near present day Pondycheri.. The sangam literature mentions about a famous Brahmana named Punjarurkavunian Vinnandayan who is supposed to have performed many Vedic sacrifices during those times.

They also took lot of interest in developing Tamil Literature. Among the well known Brahmana poets of that time were Nakkerar, Kapilar, Nachinarkiniyar, Tayam Kannanar and so on. Though representatives of the Vedic learning they also took very active part in the Bhakti movement of the ancient Tamil Nadu. Among the great saints were Nambi andar Nambi , Nadamuni, Sambandar, Sundarar, Kungilyakalayanar, and many others.

http://rajathathablog.blogspot.com/2008/10/brahmins-of-tamil-nadu.html
>>> Interesting article. Thanks. I have come across similar theories of kings importing Brahmins and giving them benefits in exchange for their endorsement.

I also had heard this 'importing brahmins and giving them benefits' theory but this was the first time i came across the theory that the growing popularity of Budhism and Jainism (with even the kings of north india extending patronage to the new religions) were responsible for the brahmin migration.
On another note can any of you shed more light on the sage Agasthya? Have you heard of him before?

>>> Yeah, but I can see this making sense economically. You go where there is less competition. I had thought the migrations took place at a later date, after the Ghazni invasions. It may have been in waves over an extended period of time. It is amazing and sad we don't have a better recorded history of our own past.

by Hellsangel Mon Dec 30, 2013 1:16 pm

confuzzled dude wrote:
truthbetold wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
truthbetold wrote:Rishi,
this is damming evidence. So the northindian hating hindi denigrating Tamil regional chavuinist is actually one of those northindians. Even worse his ancestors could have been from some utter pradesh village.

a) a few statements based on some idle musings of a retired person do not become evidence. what he says may well be true, but this blog does not qualify as evidence.

b) there are no hindi haters. there are haters of a certain human attitude on matters regarding language.

c) everyone's ancestors came from somewhere. everyone migrated. every one of us living on this planet today for instance have an ancestral connection to africa. how we self identify is a matter of what our heart tells us. this gentleman belongs to my father's generation. i have already written at length elsewhere about how some tamil brahmins of that generation have an ambivalent relationship with tamil based on their experiences with the dravidian movement.

You pretty well know we both are not making our cases based on this article.
the question was "why do you hate your own ancestors still living in utter pradesh? Why all those unsupported insults?"

Don't they say Brahmins are descendants of Jews.

Who be they?

by Rishi Mon Dec 30, 2013 1:21 pm

Don't they say Brahmins are descendants of Jews
Who be they?

>>> Even NRI Sikhs AKA Khalistanis were telling blacks and whites that they were like Jews in India.

by Kris Mon Dec 30, 2013 1:24 pm

confuzzled dude wrote:
truthbetold wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
truthbetold wrote:Rishi,
this is damming evidence. So the northindian hating hindi denigrating Tamil regional chavuinist is actually one of those northindians. Even worse his ancestors could have been from some utter pradesh village.

a) a few statements based on some idle musings of a retired person do not become evidence. what he says may well be true, but this blog does not qualify as evidence.

b) there are no hindi haters. there are haters of a certain human attitude on matters regarding language.

c) everyone's ancestors came from somewhere. everyone migrated. every one of us living on this planet today for instance have an ancestral connection to africa. how we self identify is a matter of what our heart tells us. this gentleman belongs to my father's generation. i have already written at length elsewhere about how some tamil brahmins of that generation have an ambivalent relationship with tamil based on their experiences with the dravidian movement.

You pretty well know we both are not making our cases based on this article.
the question was "why do you hate your own ancestors still living in utter pradesh? Why all those unsupported insults?"

Don't they say Brahmins are descendants of Jews.

>> Boy, wouldn't that be something, but how? Where is the connection, I mean? Hinduism and traditional Judaism may be steeped in ritual, but the philosophical systems seem to differ fundamentally.

by Hellsangel Mon Dec 30, 2013 1:29 pm

Kris wrote:
confuzzled dude wrote:
truthbetold wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
truthbetold wrote:Rishi,
this is damming evidence. So the northindian hating hindi denigrating Tamil regional chavuinist is actually one of those northindians. Even worse his ancestors could have been from some utter pradesh village.

a) a few statements based on some idle musings of a retired person do not become evidence. what he says may well be true, but this blog does not qualify as evidence.

b) there are no hindi haters. there are haters of a certain human attitude on matters regarding language.

c) everyone's ancestors came from somewhere. everyone migrated. every one of us living on this planet today for instance have an ancestral connection to africa. how we self identify is a matter of what our heart tells us. this gentleman belongs to my father's generation. i have already written at length elsewhere about how some tamil brahmins of that generation have an ambivalent relationship with tamil based on their experiences with the dravidian movement.

You pretty well know we both are not making our cases based on this article.
the question was "why do you hate your own ancestors still living in utter pradesh? Why all those unsupported insults?"

Don't they say Brahmins are descendants of Jews.

>> Boy, wouldn't that be something, but how? Where is the connection, I mean? Hinduism and traditional Judaism may be steeped in ritual, but the philosophical systems seem to differ fundamentally.

Sevaji and this person ought to get together:

http://creative.sulekha.com/who-is-abrahm-ibrahm-brahma-and-brahmins_545760_blog

by Vakavaka Pakapaka Mon Dec 30, 2013 1:30 pm

This whole North vs. South garbage is motivated.

Communities in ancient India had all 4 varnas no matter where they lived. Most of SI was a forest area and when people moved down South, they belonged to all communities. Can you imagine having just farmers and potters and no priests, soldiers and traders in any ancient village?

Just to respond to Rashmun, what if Brahmins of ancient SI needed people to till the lands and do household chores and imported them from UP and Bihar? The maids in SI look quite similar to Bhaiyyas and Biharis.

Very Happy

by Kris Mon Dec 30, 2013 1:47 pm

Kris wrote:
confuzzled dude wrote:
truthbetold wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
truthbetold wrote:Rishi,
this is damming evidence. So the northindian hating hindi denigrating Tamil regional chavuinist is actually one of those northindians. Even worse his ancestors could have been from some utter pradesh village.

a) a few statements based on some idle musings of a retired person do not become evidence. what he says may well be true, but this blog does not qualify as evidence.

b) there are no hindi haters. there are haters of a certain human attitude on matters regarding language.

c) everyone's ancestors came from somewhere. everyone migrated. every one of us living on this planet today for instance have an ancestral connection to africa. how we self identify is a matter of what our heart tells us. this gentleman belongs to my father's generation. i have already written at length elsewhere about how some tamil brahmins of that generation have an ambivalent relationship with tamil based on their experiences with the dravidian movement.

You pretty well know we both are not making our cases based on this article.
the question was "why do you hate your own ancestors still living in utter pradesh? Why all those unsupported insults?"

Don't they say Brahmins are descendants of Jews.

>> Boy, wouldn't that be something, but how? Where is the connection, I mean? Hinduism and traditional Judaism may be steeped in ritual, but the philosophical systems seem to differ fundamentally.

>> I meant doesn't Judaism require an a priori belief in a personal god?

by Guest Mon Dec 30, 2013 1:51 pm

Kris wrote:
Kris wrote:
confuzzled dude wrote:
truthbetold wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

a) a few statements based on some idle musings of a retired person do not become evidence. what he says may well be true, but this blog does not qualify as evidence.

b) there are no hindi haters. there are haters of a certain human attitude on matters regarding language.

c) everyone's ancestors came from somewhere. everyone migrated. every one of us living on this planet today for instance have an ancestral connection to africa. how we self identify is a matter of what our heart tells us. this gentleman belongs to my father's generation. i have already written at length elsewhere about how some tamil brahmins of that generation have an ambivalent relationship with tamil based on their experiences with the dravidian movement.

You pretty well know we both are not making our cases based on this article.
the question was "why do you hate your own ancestors still living in utter pradesh? Why all those unsupported insults?"

Don't they say Brahmins are descendants of Jews.

>> Boy, wouldn't that be something, but how? Where is the connection, I mean? Hinduism and traditional Judaism may be steeped in ritual, but the philosophical systems seem to differ fundamentally.
>> I meant doesn't Judaism require an a priori belief in a personal god?

Rig Veda predates Judaism so no need to take this seriously.

by truthbetold Mon Dec 30, 2013 1:54 pm

Vp,
your overly generalized summation of Indian migrations are not backed by known history.
there were migrations into south 10 k plus years ago. The tribals that still retain their customs do not show any chuturvarna cultures.

In Anthropological studies there is an argument that south had their own tribal groups that later morphed into present day castes through Aryan cultural impact.

Migration into south happened over a long period of time. Brahmins/ Aryan migration ( waves) may have happened more recently (2000 to 1000 years).

by smArtha Mon Dec 30, 2013 3:42 pm

Rashmun wrote:According to reputed historians , in the hoary past Tamil Nadu was occupied by a very cultured people whose religion was perhaps different from Hinduism. They did not have the Chaturvarnyam among them but had different caste groups. To this country the Brahmanas of North India migrated. This according to historians took place when the Maurya Kings were ruling India, the reason being the new religious revolutions in the north started by Gautama the Buddha and Mahavira Vardhamana which found favour with the kings. The Brahmana migration was in waves and many of them settled down in present telugu country and some of them reached Tamil Nadu.The first groups to migrate to Tamil Nadu were the pro-Shukra Brahmanas who were followers of Lord Shiva and the last few waves were the Pro-Brihaspati Brahmanas who were mainly followers of Lord Vishnu. Historians believe that at that time there were differences between Saivites and Vaishnavites but was very minimal.

Tamil Nadu (i.e the three great kingdoms of Chozha, Pandya and Chera) welcomed these new migrants with open hands. The stories of the migration of Agasthya(a Brahmin saint of North India) and his being the founder of the river Cauvery are chronicled in ancient Tamil myth. His disciple Tholkappiyar , who is definitely a historical figure wrote the first book in Tamil viz. Tholkappiyam.This book clearly mentions the existence of Brahmanas in Tamil Nadu. There is some evidence pointing out to Tholkappiyar himself being a Brahmin. They were initially called Anthanars or Parpaars or aravor or vediyars. Tholkappiyam also mentions the word Aiyar in one place.

http://rajathathablog.blogspot.com/2008/10/brahmins-of-tamil-nadu.html

Agastya pre-dated Mauryans or even Buddha. Hence, to say that migrations started during Mauryan era is wrong. There may have been one wave/phase of migrations during Mauryan rule. But that wasn't the first nor will it be the last.

by Guest Mon Dec 30, 2013 3:49 pm

smArtha wrote:
Rashmun wrote:According to reputed historians , in the hoary past Tamil Nadu was occupied by a very cultured people whose religion was perhaps different from Hinduism. They did not have the Chaturvarnyam among them but had different caste groups. To this country the Brahmanas of North India migrated. This according to historians took place when the Maurya Kings were ruling India, the reason being the new religious revolutions in the north started by Gautama the Buddha and Mahavira Vardhamana which found favour with the kings. The Brahmana migration was in waves and many of them settled down in present telugu country and some of them reached Tamil Nadu.The first groups to migrate to Tamil Nadu were the pro-Shukra Brahmanas who were followers of Lord Shiva and the last few waves were the Pro-Brihaspati Brahmanas who were mainly followers of Lord Vishnu. Historians believe that at that time there were differences between Saivites and Vaishnavites but was very minimal.

Tamil Nadu (i.e the three great kingdoms of Chozha, Pandya and Chera) welcomed these new migrants with open hands. The stories of the migration of Agasthya(a Brahmin saint of North India) and his being the founder of the river Cauvery are chronicled in ancient Tamil myth. His disciple Tholkappiyar , who is definitely a historical figure wrote the first book in Tamil viz. Tholkappiyam.This book clearly mentions the existence of Brahmanas in Tamil Nadu. There is some evidence pointing out to Tholkappiyar himself being a Brahmin. They were initially called Anthanars or Parpaars or aravor or vediyars. Tholkappiyam also mentions the word Aiyar in one place.

http://rajathathablog.blogspot.com/2008/10/brahmins-of-tamil-nadu.html

Agastya pre-dated Mauryans or even Buddha. Hence, to say that migrations started during Mauryan era is wrong. There may have been one wave/phase of migrations during Mauryan rule. But that wasn't the first nor will it be the last.

from what i understand of the article the author is saying large scale migrations of brahmins to south india started during the time of the mauryan kings in north india. he is not ruling out sporadic migrations of brahmins to south india may have been occurring before this period. and the author himself uses the word 'waves' to describe these migrations.

by Seva Lamberdar Mon Dec 30, 2013 5:24 pm

Rashmun wrote:According to reputed historians , in the hoary past Tamil Nadu was occupied by a very cultured people whose religion was perhaps different from Hinduism. They did not have the Chaturvarnyam among them but had different caste groups.............
http://rajathathablog.blogspot.com/2008/10/brahmins-of-tamil-nadu.html

What is the origin of the word "dravidian" according to these "reputed" historians?

by Vakavaka Pakapaka Mon Dec 30, 2013 5:43 pm

TBT

I was referring to the chaturvarna communities, not the tribes like Chenchu and Araku, etc. The migration of Brahmins from UP to SI is an exaggerated story peddled by insecure NIs.

by smArtha Tue Dec 31, 2013 11:33 am

Rashmun wrote:from what i understand of the article the author is saying large scale migrations of brahmins to south india started during the time of the mauryan kings in north india. he is not ruling out sporadic migrations of brahmins to south india may have been occurring before this period. and the author himself uses the word 'waves' to describe these migrations.

Well there are too many half baked theories out there - large scale migrations happened when Alexander Invaded or during ascent of Buddhism/Jainism, during Islamic Invasions etc. But how do they reconcile to the presence of Agastya, Gautama and other rishis (and by extension their disciples and followers who adhered to vaidika dharma) in the dandakaranya region (current day deccan area) during the Ramayana & Mahabharata times. By all evidences so far the Ramayana and Mahabharata eras are at the least a good 1000+ years before any of the above invasions and influences.

by indophile Tue Dec 31, 2013 11:52 am

Seva Lamberdar wrote:
Rashmun wrote:According to reputed historians , in the hoary past Tamil Nadu was occupied by a very cultured people whose religion was perhaps different from Hinduism. They did not have the Chaturvarnyam among them but had different caste groups.............
http://rajathathablog.blogspot.com/2008/10/brahmins-of-tamil-nadu.html

What is the origin of the word "dravidian" according to these "reputed" historians?

Adi Sankaracharya used the word "dravida" in the 75th verse of Soundarya Lahari. Various claims about his time (from 4th century B.C to 7th century AD) are in play. I don't know if the word appears in more ancient texts.
Older Malayalis even today refer to Tamil as "dravida bhasha."
There is a Telugu Brahmin sect called "dravidas." It is said that their ancestors accompanied a Pandya princess when she moved to her Chalukya in-laws in the 10th century.

by truthbetold Tue Dec 31, 2013 1:00 pm

Annamayya, early telugu poet (vaggayyakarudu), 14th century, ancestors are from Varanasi's area. They moved south after Muslim invasions.
Lot of east godavari brahmins came there from Tamil nadu between 12th and 16th century.
Tyagaraja family is from kurnool area. Moved to tanjore before 18th century.
What does this prove?
Muslims targeted brahmins and they moved to safer areas.
brahmins were in demand for services they can offer and rulers of the day facilitated their movement in different directions.
this is more recent history. The further back we go, more murkier the facts and allows more speculation.

by smArtha Tue Dec 31, 2013 1:16 pm

indophile wrote:Adi Sankaracharya used the word "dravida" in the 75th verse of Soundarya Lahari. Various claims about his time (from 4th century B.C to 7th century AD) are in play. I don't know if the word appears in more ancient texts.
Older Malayalis even today refer to Tamil as "dravida bhasha."
There is a Telugu Brahmin sect called "dravidas." It is said that their ancestors accompanied a Pandya princess when she moved to her Chalukya in-laws in the 10th century.

If I remember right, Mahabharata (and Kurukshetra war in specific) does include Dravida rules/armies. And I also vaguely remember their mention in the Ramayana (story of Viswamitra & Vasistha).

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