US position on sri lankan govt's war crimes

Ponniyin Selvan wrote:

Kinnera wrote:

Ponniyin Selvan wrote:

Hellsangel wrote:

Ponniyin Selvan wrote:

Good that US supports the position of Sri lankan Tamils. This should be the first step in the long sequence of steps to recognize Tamil Eelam. 

Max,

I don't think you have to spend time trying to convince folks who cannot be convinced. It is a waste of time.

Don't delude yourself.

Well, In 1905 not many britishers would have thought India would be an independent country in 50 years time and if some one remarked so, he would have been called as delusional. 

Even India is just a 60+ year project, we cannot say for sure the geographical boundaries are going to be the same 60 years from now..

So this Tamil Eelam thing, is it going to have its borders extended from India?

Who knows, maybe or maybe not.. Did you think 10 years back that borders of Andhra would exclude Hyderabad in the near future ?.

I didn't and i don't think it will happen now either.

Ponniyin Selvan wrote:

Hellsangel wrote:

Ponniyin Selvan wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/01/10/fury-in-sri-lanka-at-u-s-embassy-tweet-on-killing-of-tamils/

Good that US supports the position of Sri lankan Tamils. This should be the first step in the long sequence of steps to recognize Tamil Eelam. 

Max,

I don't think you have to spend time trying to convince folks who cannot be convinced. It is a waste of time.

Don't delude yourself.

Well, In 1905 not many britishers would have thought India would be an independent country in 50 years time and if some one remarked so, he would have been called as delusional. 

Even India is just a 60+ year project, we cannot say for sure the geographical boundaries are going to be the same 60 years from now..

Do you extent support to outfits like Farzandan-e-Milat, Khalistan, Taliban too?

Rishi wrote:BW,

It is not just material reasons alone desis want to be here in the United States.

Imagine the lfe of an unmarried women in India.
I know quite a few unmarried desi women who would rather sweep floors and live in America than go back home.

In fact I know such woman. She cleans houses for a living. She studied medicine in India.

She moved to America bcz she couldn't get married in India? What are you saying Rishi garu.

Kinnera wrote:

Ponniyin Selvan wrote:

Kinnera wrote:

Ponniyin Selvan wrote:

Hellsangel wrote:

Don't delude yourself.

Well, In 1905 not many britishers would have thought India would be an independent country in 50 years time and if some one remarked so, he would have been called as delusional. 

Even India is just a 60+ year project, we cannot say for sure the geographical boundaries are going to be the same 60 years from now..

So this Tamil Eelam thing, is it going to have its borders extended from India?

Who knows, maybe or maybe not.. Did you think 10 years back that borders of Andhra would exclude Hyderabad in the near future ?.

I didn't and i don't think it will happen now either.

Well, we can find that out sooner.

confuzzled dude wrote:

Ponniyin Selvan wrote:

Hellsangel wrote:

Ponniyin Selvan wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/01/10/fury-in-sri-lanka-at-u-s-embassy-tweet-on-killing-of-tamils/

Good that US supports the position of Sri lankan Tamils. This should be the first step in the long sequence of steps to recognize Tamil Eelam. 

Max,

I don't think you have to spend time trying to convince folks who cannot be convinced. It is a waste of time.

Don't delude yourself.

Well, In 1905 not many britishers would have thought India would be an independent country in 50 years time and if some one remarked so, he would have been called as delusional. 

Even India is just a 60+ year project, we cannot say for sure the geographical boundaries are going to be the same 60 years from now..

Do you extent support to outfits like Farzandan-e-Milat, Khalistan, Taliban too?

I have no idea on this Farzan thing.. I do not support violent movements.

Ponniyin Selvan wrote:

Kinnera wrote:

Ponniyin Selvan wrote:

Kinnera wrote:

Ponniyin Selvan wrote:

Well, In 1905 not many britishers would have thought India would be an independent country in 50 years time and if some one remarked so, he would have been called as delusional. 

Even India is just a 60+ year project, we cannot say for sure the geographical boundaries are going to be the same 60 years from now..

So this Tamil Eelam thing, is it going to have its borders extended from India?

Who knows, maybe or maybe not.. Did you think 10 years back that borders of Andhra would exclude Hyderabad in the near future ?.

I didn't and i don't think it will happen now either.

Well, we can find that out sooner.

We sure will, but it is not the same as breaking away from india.

Ponniyin Selvan wrote:

confuzzled dude wrote:

Ponniyin Selvan wrote:

Hellsangel wrote:

Ponniyin Selvan wrote:

Good that US supports the position of Sri lankan Tamils. This should be the first step in the long sequence of steps to recognize Tamil Eelam. 

Max,

I don't think you have to spend time trying to convince folks who cannot be convinced. It is a waste of time.

Don't delude yourself.

Well, In 1905 not many britishers would have thought India would be an independent country in 50 years time and if some one remarked so, he would have been called as delusional. 

Even India is just a 60+ year project, we cannot say for sure the geographical boundaries are going to be the same 60 years from now..

Do you extent support to outfits like Farzandan-e-Milat, Khalistan, Taliban too?

I have no idea on this Farzan thing.. I do not support violent movements.

Riiiiight. Like the Sinn Fein said of the IRA.

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

Rishi wrote:

bw wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

bw wrote:

oh, it is very easy and natural to get attached to the US or any other such place but that's different from singing "this land is your land, this land is my land".

see my other response. since you chose to make a pointed and personal criticism, allow me to make one too. i find the cynicism on button on all issues 24/7 a little wearing too.

it is not personal but directed at all those who become american or british or australian citizens very easily but never a kenyan or ethiopian one. obviously, it is not the love of the land that drives this patriotism but material welfare. nothing wrong with all that. we(yes, includes me) are all mercenaries but is just a bit grating when it is proudly flaunted as patriotism and unnecessary expressions such as "my country", "my government" are too tempting to avoid taking a dig at. there is someone i know who is very proud to walk through the "foreign passport holders" gate at the indian airports and brags about this at every possible opportunity. i find it hilarious.

>>> That says it all.

i hope you never get stuck in some uncomfortable situation, even if it is not of your making, where you have to ask for consular help to extricate yourself. and if you do,  please try to stay calm and principled, and accept your fate, and don't identify "your govt" since you agree with bw so much.

You speak like this was your personal experience, Il Professor-ai.

bw wrote:
it is not personal but directed at all those who become american or british or australian citizens very easily but never a kenyan or an ethiopian one. obviously, it is not the love of the land that drives this patriotism but material welfare. nothing wrong with all that. we(yes, includes me) are all mercenaries but is just a bit grating when it is proudly flaunted as patriotism and unnecessary expressions such as "my country", "my government" are too tempting to avoid taking a dig at. there is someone i know who is very proud to walk through the "foreign passport holders" gate at the indian airports and brags about this at every possible opportunity. i find it hilarious.

Damn! they gave up American citizenship to become a Kenyan or Ethiopian citizens. Srsly, your analogy makes no sense because most of us didn't come to US via Kenya or Ethiopia, for many it's childhood dream.

Don't we routinely refer to our favorite sports team as "we", as if we are part of the team so what's wrong with following the same rule with one's adopted country, after all OCI card holders can't run for public office in India, heck they can't even buy farm lands.

confuzzled dude wrote:

bw wrote:
it is not personal but directed at all those who become american or british or australian citizens very easily but never a kenyan or an ethiopian one. obviously, it is not the love of the land that drives this patriotism but material welfare. nothing wrong with all that. we(yes, includes me) are all mercenaries but is just a bit grating when it is proudly flaunted as patriotism and unnecessary expressions such as "my country", "my government" are too tempting to avoid taking a dig at. there is someone i know who is very proud to walk through the "foreign passport holders" gate at the indian airports and brags about this at every possible opportunity. i find it hilarious.

Damn! they gave up American citizenship to become a Kenyan or Ethiopian citizens. Srsly, your analogy makes no sense because most of us didn't come to US via Kenya or Ethiopia, for many it's childhood dream.

Don't we routinely refer to our favorite sports team as "we", as if we are part of the team so what's wrong with following the same rule with one's adopted country, after all OCI card holders can't run for public office in India, heck they can't even buy farm lands.

i didn't say there was anything wrong - it is just funny. when the adoption takes place largely for financial or material reasons and not for anything else (ok, some unmarried women went to US and trust rishi to know all these outliers) the nationalism and ownership shown is rather suspect. when such people tout their new found patriotism, sorry, some of us find it funny. i don't include people who sought political asylum under this list.

i mentioned kenya and ethiopia because it is rather easy to pledge allegiance to the "first world" countries and proudly wear this badge.

confuzzled dude wrote:

bw wrote:
it is not personal but directed at all those who become american or british or australian citizens very easily but never a kenyan or an ethiopian one. obviously, it is not the love of the land that drives this patriotism but material welfare. nothing wrong with all that. we(yes, includes me) are all mercenaries but is just a bit grating when it is proudly flaunted as patriotism and unnecessary expressions such as "my country", "my government" are too tempting to avoid taking a dig at. there is someone i know who is very proud to walk through the "foreign passport holders" gate at the indian airports and brags about this at every possible opportunity. i find it hilarious.

Damn! they gave up American citizenship to become a Kenyan or Ethiopian citizens. Srsly, your analogy makes no sense because most of us didn't come to US via Kenya or Ethiopia, for many it's childhood dream.

Don't we routinely refer to our favorite sports team as "we", as if we are part of the team so what's wrong with following the same rule with one's adopted country, after all OCI card holders can't run for public office in India, heck they can't even buy farm lands.

>>> I think BW is making the point that we (Indian diaspora) are more likely to become US, British or Australian citizenships, but not Kenyan or Ethiopian citizens. From what I have observed, the 'us', 'we' thing happens the longer we live in a place and the more we identify with it and usually we are not even aware of it. When I am in an Indian social circle, it is usually context-driven. If someone says 'who are we playing this weekend?', it is usually a reference to the local sports team, but other than that , the 'we' refers to us as Indians. By contrast, if it is at work or in a non-indian social circle, it is obviously America. It would be extremely weird if I had to self-identify as a naturalized American born elsewhere every time this comes up.  We know someone who is obsessed with this and other things like the usage of the term "world championships", but has lived here 35+ years. Incidentally, despite a PhD from a big name school, the career path has been a disaster. You guessed it  "they don't like foreigners!".  All indian successes are dismissed as flukes.

bw wrote:

confuzzled dude wrote:

bw wrote:
it is not personal but directed at all those who become american or british or australian citizens very easily but never a kenyan or an ethiopian one. obviously, it is not the love of the land that drives this patriotism but material welfare. nothing wrong with all that. we(yes, includes me) are all mercenaries but is just a bit grating when it is proudly flaunted as patriotism and unnecessary expressions such as "my country", "my government" are too tempting to avoid taking a dig at. there is someone i know who is very proud to walk through the "foreign passport holders" gate at the indian airports and brags about this at every possible opportunity. i find it hilarious.

Damn! they gave up American citizenship to become a Kenyan or Ethiopian citizens. Srsly, your analogy makes no sense because most of us didn't come to US via Kenya or Ethiopia, for many it's childhood dream.

Don't we routinely refer to our favorite sports team as "we", as if we are part of the team so what's wrong with following the same rule with one's adopted country, after all OCI card holders can't run for public office in India, heck they can't even buy farm lands.

i didn't say there was anything wrong - it is just funny. when the adoption takes place largely for financial or material reasons and not for anything else (ok, some unmarried women went to US and trust rishi to know all these outliers) the nationalism and ownership shown is rather suspect. when such people tout their new found patriotism, sorry, some of us find it funny. i don't include people who sought political asylum under this list.

i mentioned kenya and ethiopia because it is rather easy to pledge allegiance to the "first world" countries and proudly wear this badge.

i am sorry but i find that magnitude of cynicism off putting, i think it even borders on some type of psychosis.

Kris wrote:
>>> I think BW is making the point that we (Indian diaspora) are more likely to become US, British or Australian citizenships, but not Kenyan or Ethiopian citizens. From what I have observed, the 'us', 'we' thing happens the longer we live in a place and the more we identify with it and usually we are not even aware of it. When I am in an Indian social circle, it is usually context-driven. If someone says 'who are we playing this weekend?', it is usually a reference to the local sports team, but other than that , the 'we' refers to us as Indians. By contrast, if it is at work or in a non-indian social circle, it is obviously America. It would be extremely weird if I had to self-identify as a naturalized American born elsewhere every time this comes up.  We know someone who is obsessed with this and other things like the usage of the term "world championships", but has lived here 35+ years. Incidentally, despite a PhD from a big name school, the career path has been a disaster. You guessed it  "they don't like foreigners!".  All indian successes are dismissed as flukes.

"We" as in Indian "we" or American, Damn! this is getting very complicated

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

i am sorry but i find that magnitude of cynicism off putting, i think it even borders on some type of psychosis.  

Interesting! What do you classify your dislike for North Indians or your contempt for South Indians who adopt North Indian customs, Il Professor-ai? Xenophobia?

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

i am sorry but i find that magnitude of cynicism off putting, i think it even borders on some type of psychosis.  

   

whatever the initial reasons were for emigrating, the notion that those reasons and the ideas about home and rootedness should remain static over a period of 20-25 years is unrealistic to say the least. things like identity and nationality (what one feels inside, not what a piece of paper says) are informed by life experiences - career successes and failures, friendships, romantic relationships, degree of engagement in civic debate, immersion in music, sports teams, travel, heck even beer, and last but certainly not least, children. that all this is cynically dismissed as being suspect is deeply troubling.

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:whatever the initial reasons were for emigrating, the notion that those reasons and the ideas about home and rootedness should remain static over a period of 20-25 years is unrealistic to say the least. things like identity and nationality (what one feels inside, not what a piece of paper says) are informed by life experiences - career successes and failures, friendships, romantic relationships, degree of engagement in civic debate, immersion in music, sports teams, travel, heck even beer, and last but certainly not least, children.  that all this is cynically dismissed as being suspect is deeply troubling.

Sounds interesting coming from someone with a big Tamil chip on his shoulder.

Hellsangel wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

i am sorry but i find that magnitude of cynicism off putting, i think it even borders on some type of psychosis.  

Interesting! What do you classify your dislike for North Indians or your contempt for South Indians who adopt North Indian customs, Il Professor-ai? Xenophobia?

a) is it possible for you to have a discussion on any topic without the deep need to frame everything in the context of some personality kink you think you have discovered about someone?
b) i don't think i've ever said i dislike any group of people. i don't think i am xenophobic.

i think we've veered very far away from the subject of this thread.

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

Hellsangel wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

i am sorry but i find that magnitude of cynicism off putting, i think it even borders on some type of psychosis.  

Interesting! What do you classify your dislike for North Indians or your contempt for South Indians who adopt North Indian customs, Il Professor-ai? Xenophobia?

a) is it possible for you to have a discussion on any topic without the deep need to frame everything in the context of some personality kink you think you have discovered about someone?
b) i don't think i've ever said i dislike any group of people. i don't think i am xenophobic.

A little hypocritical there don't you think?

Hellsangel wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

Hellsangel wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

i am sorry but i find that magnitude of cynicism off putting, i think it even borders on some type of psychosis.  

Interesting! What do you classify your dislike for North Indians or your contempt for South Indians who adopt North Indian customs, Il Professor-ai? Xenophobia?

a) is it possible for you to have a discussion on any topic without the deep need to frame everything in the context of some personality kink you think you have discovered about someone?
b) i don't think i've ever said i dislike any group of people. i don't think i am xenophobic.

A little hypocritical there don't you think?

i think i am done with this line of conversation unless there is something other than this back and forth accusatory stuff. you carry on.

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
a) is it possible for you to have a discussion on any topic without the deep need to frame everything in the context of some personality kink you think you have discovered about someone?

   

LTTE.

Khalistan.

Jammu n Kashmir.

Why are all these in Asian countries only?

Has ANYONE thought that no one in London thinks of separating from UK?

And no one in Alabama thinks of separating from US?

China has conspiracy to make Tibet and Arunachal Pradesh from India into their own?

Why are countries like India, and Sri Lanka worrying about dividing self?

Take a step back, and THINK.

WHY?

Are others fooling us?

Are we fools to be fooled by outsiders?

Are we so narrow minded that we do want to be divided?

Who benefits, when we are divided, and fight and kill each other?

Do we have bigger issues in our countries, than being divided?

Over 40 kids die of hunger every day under our nose, and we choose to fight for a separate nation?

Step back, and THINK!

Regards,
TS.

Missed all the real-time stream...

so, takeaways in a doggy bag:
1. Max makes the cardinal mistake of assuming a certain level of mature debate.
2. Runs into a particularly virulent strain of "Indian-morphed-into-Rigid-Conservative" germ that has a theory on life/personalities that derives entirely from a post-fact analysis of reactions to wildly invidious hypotheses.
3. The soul of Such is cleaved into two parts "assimilated American" and "undigested Indian".
4. Proof of godel's theorem to unearth 'inconsistencies' in the axiomatic system called Max remains inconclusive - to be fought for, another day.
5. Not many people believe in Maya Angelou's 'we contain multitudes' - they prefer the hindoo belief of having identity right along with a belly button when born.

Kris wrote:

confuzzled dude wrote:

bw wrote:
it is not personal but directed at all those who become american or british or australian citizens very easily but never a kenyan or an ethiopian one. obviously, it is not the love of the land that drives this patriotism but material welfare. nothing wrong with all that. we(yes, includes me) are all mercenaries but is just a bit grating when it is proudly flaunted as patriotism and unnecessary expressions such as "my country", "my government" are too tempting to avoid taking a dig at. there is someone i know who is very proud to walk through the "foreign passport holders" gate at the indian airports and brags about this at every possible opportunity. i find it hilarious.

Damn! they gave up American citizenship to become a Kenyan or Ethiopian citizens. Srsly, your analogy makes no sense because most of us didn't come to US via Kenya or Ethiopia, for many it's childhood dream.

Don't we routinely refer to our favorite sports team as "we", as if we are part of the team so what's wrong with following the same rule with one's adopted country, after all OCI card holders can't run for public office in India, heck they can't even buy farm lands.

>>> I think BW is making the point that we (Indian diaspora) are more likely to become US, British or Australian citizenships, but not Kenyan or Ethiopian citizens. From what I have observed, the 'us', 'we' thing happens the longer we live in a place and the more we identify with it and usually we are not even aware of it. When I am in an Indian social circle, it is usually context-driven. If someone says 'who are we playing this weekend?', it is usually a reference to the local sports team, but other than that , the 'we' refers to us as Indians. By contrast, if it is at work or in a non-indian social circle, it is obviously America. It would be extremely weird if I had to self-identify as a naturalized American born elsewhere every time this comes up.  We know someone who is obsessed with this and other things like the usage of the term "world championships", but has lived here 35+ years. Incidentally, despite a PhD from a big name school, the career path has been a disaster. You guessed it  "they don't like foreigners!".  All indian successes are dismissed as flukes.

>>>> What is "success" after all?

IMO your friend is a loser because he is going around putting down other Indians who are "successful" as flukes.

I have a friend who is a Ph.D in Biophysics. He lost his post-doc position. Then he went back to school and got an M.S in information systems. He did not like his systems analyst job. He quit. He took a job as a salesman at a Toyota used car dealer near his house. Since he starts his work only at 11 AM, he is able to drop his daughter at her school each morning. And he is good at his work and well respected there. He has been promoted as Finance manager.

Petrichor wrote:Missed all the real-time stream...

>>>Ah, more's the pity...

5. Not many people believe in Maya Angelou's 'we contain multitudes' - they prefer the hindoo belief of having identity right along with a belly button when born.

>>>As stepping out of this caste/subcaste coordinates would result in a loss of identity.. and all hell is inevitably bound to break lose. Now, take off that Yankee's cap  ...

Rishi wrote:

Kris wrote:

confuzzled dude wrote:

bw wrote:
it is not personal but directed at all those who become american or british or australian citizens very easily but never a kenyan or an ethiopian one. obviously, it is not the love of the land that drives this patriotism but material welfare. nothing wrong with all that. we(yes, includes me) are all mercenaries but is just a bit grating when it is proudly flaunted as patriotism and unnecessary expressions such as "my country", "my government" are too tempting to avoid taking a dig at. there is someone i know who is very proud to walk through the "foreign passport holders" gate at the indian airports and brags about this at every possible opportunity. i find it hilarious.

Damn! they gave up American citizenship to become a Kenyan or Ethiopian citizens. Srsly, your analogy makes no sense because most of us didn't come to US via Kenya or Ethiopia, for many it's childhood dream.

Don't we routinely refer to our favorite sports team as "we", as if we are part of the team so what's wrong with following the same rule with one's adopted country, after all OCI card holders can't run for public office in India, heck they can't even buy farm lands.

>>> I think BW is making the point that we (Indian diaspora) are more likely to become US, British or Australian citizenships, but not Kenyan or Ethiopian citizens. From what I have observed, the 'us', 'we' thing happens the longer we live in a place and the more we identify with it and usually we are not even aware of it. When I am in an Indian social circle, it is usually context-driven. If someone says 'who are we playing this weekend?', it is usually a reference to the local sports team, but other than that , the 'we' refers to us as Indians. By contrast, if it is at work or in a non-indian social circle, it is obviously America. It would be extremely weird if I had to self-identify as a naturalized American born elsewhere every time this comes up.  We know someone who is obsessed with this and other things like the usage of the term "world championships", but has lived here 35+ years. Incidentally, despite a PhD from a big name school, the career path has been a disaster. You guessed it  "they don't like foreigners!".  All indian successes are dismissed as flukes.

IMO your friend is a loser because he is going around putting down other Indians who are "successful" as flukes.

>>>>Not a friend by a long shot. I find these types of losers an emotional drain.

I have a friend who is a Ph.D in Biophysics. He lost his post-doc position. Then he went back to school and got an M.S in information systems. He did not like his systems analyst job. He quit. He took a job as a salesman at a Toyota used car dealer near his house. Since he starts his work only at 11 AM, he is able to drop his daughter at her school each morning. And he is good at his work and well respected there. He has been promoted as Finance
manager.

>>>His success or failure depends on his attitude and if he likes the balance he has struck with the choices he has made. He would most certainly be a failure if he blamed his predicament on how "they" singled him out for mistreatment, while others with similar backgrounds have had no such problems.

bw wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

bw wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

bw wrote:

i find it very funny when indians who went to america largely for material reasons become more of a patriotic american than the americans themselves.

i find the expectation that one should not develop an attachment to a place after one has lived there for more than two decades, regardless of what the original reasons were, very funny. and if one actually doesn't, i find it quite odd.

oh, it is very easy and natural to get attached to the US or any other such place but that's different from singing "this land is your land, this land is my land".

see my other response. since you chose to make a pointed and personal criticism, allow me to make one too. i find the cynicism on button on all issues 24/7 a little wearing too.

it is not personal but directed at all those who become american or british or australian citizens very easily but never a kenyan or an ethiopian one. obviously, it is not the love of the land that drives this patriotism but material welfare. nothing wrong with all that. we(yes, includes me) are all mercenaries but is just a bit grating when it is proudly flaunted as patriotism and unnecessary expressions such as "my country", "my government" are too tempting to avoid taking a dig at. there is someone i know who is very proud to walk through the "foreign passport holders" gate at the indian airports and brags about this at every possible opportunity. i find it hilarious.

We are all not mercenaries, bw. Don't demean yourself and everybody else. There is no shame in working for money and a comfortable life. I wish we didn't have to do it, but I guess that can't be helped where ever you are. Are people who migrate from villages to towns, and from towns to cities, mercenaries, too? Or it only applies to people who cross borders?

My personal experience has been that people aren't that much different no what matter which country they come from. They all want the same basic things in life. The first world countries that you mention offer these, while Kenya and Ethiopia may not. In addition to the 'material welfare' which I am equating with money and comfort, they also have systems that work to provide basic rights, law, health care, freedom, a clean environment, and more, including better life and acceptability for unmarried, divorced, twice married women, that Rishi mentions. I wish they had built in to the system, a way to provide maids as a benefit for working here, but that's okay. Once you experience these, you tend to develop a grudging respect, which can translate to unbridled patriotism and pride in some.

And it only gets worse when you go to India to experience in your face misogyny, materialism, poverty, corruption, hypocrisy in relation to women's issues, relationships, religion, maids, servants, you name it.

Patriotism is not a virtue, it comes easy, and majority of the people in the world are patriotic towards their countries, because that is the only country they've experienced. You are right that it is not the love of the land, but it does encompass everything it offers, not just material welfare.

ashaNirasha wrote:including better life and acceptability for unmarried, divorced, twice married women,

I don't think Urban India is all that bad when it comes to that. And it is not as if people here don't have disparaging remarks about people who have been married multiple times.

Of all the things I threw in there, you had to pick the one I made in jest. Regardless, 'not all that bad' is relative. May be not that bad compared to the 80's, or not that bad compared to the Middle East. I'll concede that it's probably  equally bad for men as well.

My broader general point was something else. It is not an outlier that women prefer this country over India, more the norm.

ashaNirasha wrote:
We are all not mercenaries, bw. Don't demean yourself and everybody else. There is no shame in working for money and a comfortable life. I wish we didn't have to do it, but I guess that can't be helped where ever you are. Are people who migrate from villages to towns, and from towns to cities, mercenaries, too? Or it only applies to people who cross borders?

My personal experience has been that people aren't that much different no what matter which country they come from. They all want the same basic things in life. The first world countries that you mention offer these, while Kenya and Ethiopia may not. In addition to the 'material welfare' which I am equating with money and comfort, they also have systems that work to provide basic rights, law, health care, freedom, a clean environment, and more, including better life and acceptability for unmarried, divorced, twice married women, that Rishi mentions. I wish they had built in to the system, a way to provide maids as a benefit for working here, but that's okay. Once you experience these, you tend to develop a grudging respect, which can translate to unbridled patriotism and pride in some.

And it only gets worse when you go to India to experience in your face misogyny, materialism, poverty, corruption, hypocrisy in relation to women's issues, relationships, religion, maids, servants, you name it.

Patriotism is not a virtue, it comes easy, and majority of the people in the world are patriotic towards their countries, because that is the only country they've experienced. You are right that it is not the love of the land, but it does encompass everything it offers, not just material welfare.

aN, good to see you posting.

i agree with you that mercenary is a limited term and there are other reasons why people feel "at home" in other lands. i used it loosely to mean "better life". it can be money, social freedom, clean air, good infrastructure, convenient suburban living, environment conducive to research etc. of course, rishi somehow manages to know that one woman who is a doctor-turned-cleaning-lady. i don't think there is anything demeaning about being a mercenary. also, it is very easy and natural to get attached to such a place.  getting a different passport may also be driven by practical reasons - ease of travel, security. i know someone who holds a canadian passport purely for practical reasons but prefers to live in india and in fact, does a lot of good work there.

the only thing i find jarring and amusing is these new allegiances being announced unnecessarily when it is obvious that the allegiance is mostly because of the convenience that it offers and not any true, unconditional, patriotic feelings.

sri lanka's killing fields, originally broadcast on channel 4 in the UK. watch if you have the stomach for it.

bw wrote:

ashaNirasha wrote:
more, including better life and acceptability for unmarried, divorced, twice married women, that Rishi mentions. I wish they had built in to the system, a way to provide maids as a benefit for working here, but that's okay.

rishi somehow manages to know that one woman who is a doctor-turned-cleaning-lady..

>>>BW,

I have come across more than five unmarried woman in their forties who would rather die here than go and live all alone back home. There is this stereotype that unmarried woman are morally loose. The way men in India talk to unmarried woman is totally different compared to the ones who are married. They will make a pass at you. And some may even make lewd comments within earshot.

Even your relatives back home shun you if you are a single woman who is no longer marriageable. Your own brothers and sisters who are married may not invite you to any social functions. In America you are left alone and not judged negatively.

Rishi wrote:

bw wrote:

ashaNirasha wrote:
more, including better life and acceptability for unmarried, divorced, twice married women, that Rishi mentions. I wish they had built in to the system, a way to provide maids as a benefit for working here, but that's okay.

rishi somehow manages to know that one woman who is a doctor-turned-cleaning-lady..

>>>BW,

I have come across more than five unmarried woman in their forties who would rather die here than go and live all alone back home. There is this stereotype that unmarried woman are morally loose. The way men in India talk to unmarried woman is totally different compared to the ones who are married. They will make a pass at you. And some may even make lewd comments within earshot.

Even your relatives back home shun you if you are a single woman who is no longer marriageable. Your own brothers and sisters who are married may not invite you to any social functions. In America you are left alone and not judged negatively.

rishi, i agree that women probably enjoy more freedom in the US compared to india in certain ways but your example of a medical professional turning into a cleaning lady sounds a bit too dramatic.

rishi, i agree that women probably enjoy more freedom in the US compared to india in certain ways but your example of a medical professional turning into a cleaning lady sounds a bit too dramatic.

>>> I will tell you her story.

She is from Karnatka. She did her M.B.B.S and D.Ch back home. She wanted to come to America and practice medicine. She was already in her 30s. Her route to States was totally different than other medical professionals. She applied for a Ph.D program in physiology at a reputed school in Washington D.C. They let her in with a research scholarship.

But her heart was set on getting a residency position here. She had a difficult time studying for USMLE and going to school as well. She simply quit school one day and focussed on studying for the licensing exam.

Not only she had become "out of status" but also lost her monthly stipend from her graduate school. So she started cleaning other people's toilets for a living.

Btw she had a white male as her friend. He was not her boyfriend. It is just that he had been estranged from his mother and somehow they both became kind of pals. I think he was into some kind of spiritual way of life etc. Believe me there was no romance nor lust there.

But can you really focus on preparing for your licensing exam when you end up doing back -breaking jobs just to survive and when the cloud of immigration illegality hanging over your head. Somehow she made it through the first two parts of USMLE but with a very low score.

One day she was kicked out of the room she was renting. I am not sure why her landlord did not want her there anymore. It was a very cold day with heavy snow. She called me from a public phone around 9 PM and asked me whether she could come and stay at my place. I told her she can but I will not let her friend in. She said she cannot leave him on the streets. In that case, I asked her to call the police and they will help her out. That is what she did.

And then one day INS announced that some people who are out of status can apply for green card in certain categories. I asked her to apply immediately. She managed to get a recommendation letter from the research professor she was working for at the graduate school. The INS in fact turned her application down by saying that her application had the timestamp past the deadline. I asked her to go Vermont INS office and show them the receipt which had a earlier timestamp. She was really lucky. She got the green card.

She got a residency position in Pathology at some hospital in NY state. It did not work out well. Now she came back from NY. I do not know where she is now.

She told me long back that she will not go back to India because life is difficult for unmarried women there.

oh, she worked as a cleaning lady just temporarily - that's more believable.

Rishi is an entertaining story teller.

Rishi wrote:

rishi, i agree that women probably enjoy more freedom in the US compared to india in certain ways but your example of a medical professional turning into a cleaning lady sounds a bit too dramatic.

>>> I will tell you her story.

She is from Karnatka. She did her M.B.B.S and D.Ch back home. She wanted to come to America and practice medicine.  She was already in her 30s. Her route to States was totally different than other medical professionals. She applied for a Ph.D program in physiology at a reputed school in Washington D.C.  They let her in with a research scholarship.

But her heart was set on getting a residency position here. She had a difficult time studying for USMLE and going to school as well. She simply quit school one day and focussed on studying for the licensing exam.

Not only she had become "out of status" but also lost her monthly stipend from her graduate school. So she started cleaning other people's toilets for a living.

Btw she had a white male as her friend. He was not her boyfriend. It is just that he had been estranged from his mother and somehow they both became kind of pals. I think he was into some kind of spiritual way of life etc.  Believe me there was no romance nor lust there.

But can you really focus on preparing for your licensing exam when you end up doing back -breaking jobs just to survive and when the cloud of immigration illegality hanging over your head. Somehow she made it through the first two parts of USMLE but with a very low score.

One day she was kicked out of the room she was renting. I am not sure why her landlord did not want her there anymore. It was a very cold day with heavy snow. She called me  from a public phone around 9 PM and asked me whether she could come and stay at my place. I told her she can but I will not let her friend in. She said she cannot leave him on the streets. In that case, I asked her to call the police and they will help her out. That is what she did.

And then one day INS announced that some people who are out of status can apply for green card in certain categories. I asked her to apply immediately. She managed to get a recommendation letter from the research professor she was working for at the graduate school.  The INS in fact turned her application down by saying that her application had the timestamp past the deadline. I asked her to go Vermont INS office and show them the receipt which had a earlier timestamp. She was really lucky. She got the green card.

She got a residency position in Pathology at some hospital in NY state. It did not work out well. Now she came back from NY. I do not know where she is now.

She told me long back that she will not go back to India because life is difficult for unmarried women there.

>>The story is not improbable considering her circumstances, but this coming to America was of her own volition more than being driven to it because of her unmarried status. I am not disputing the point that there would have been more stigma attached to her unmarried status in India, but she could have sustained herself considering her profession, I would think.

the only thing i find jarring and amusing is these new allegiances being announced unnecessarily when it is obvious that the allegiance is mostly because of the convenience that it offers and not any true, unconditional, patriotic feelings.

I'm not sure I understand what true, unconditional, patriotic feelings are. I'm with Max on this. He is the only one who announced his allegiance, and he's made it clear that it is for more than convenience at this point. 

At least, I've also discovered the one fool-proof way to rankle fellow Indians in social settings is to declare your love for US with gusto. 

Don't tell me you believe in true, unconditional love and such feelings as well. 

ashaNirasha wrote:

the only thing i find jarring and amusing is these new allegiances being announced unnecessarily when it is obvious that the allegiance is mostly because of the convenience that it offers and not any true, unconditional, patriotic feelings.

I'm not sure I understand what true, unconditional, patriotic feelings are. I'm with Max on this. He is the only one who announced his allegiance, and he's made it clear that it is for more than convenience at this point. 

At least, I've also discovered the one fool-proof way to rankle fellow Indians in social settings is to declare your love for US with gusto. 

Don't tell me you believe in true, unconditional love and such feelings as well. 

Who are fellow Indians in this context? Indian passport holders or 1st generation Indian Americans?

ashaNirasha wrote:

the only thing i find jarring and amusing is these new allegiances being announced unnecessarily when it is obvious that the allegiance is mostly because of the convenience that it offers and not any true, unconditional, patriotic feelings.

I'm not sure I understand what true, unconditional, patriotic feelings are. I'm with Max on this. He is the only one who announced his allegiance, and he's made it clear that it is for more than convenience at this point. 

At least, I've also discovered the one fool-proof way to rankle fellow Indians in social settings is to declare your love for US with gusto. 

Don't tell me you believe in true, unconditional love and such feelings as well. 

>>>>Much of this loyalty thing is context-driven. I am however puzzled but Rishi's insistence that everyone diligently be mindful of his identity in every context. To keep the peace, I am hereby proposing we have our castes and subcastes imprinted on our foreheads. That could make for some weird conversations at client meetings and so forth, but hey at least we didn't step out of our pre-ordained caste identity

Kris wrote:

ashaNirasha wrote:

the only thing i find jarring and amusing is these new allegiances being announced unnecessarily when it is obvious that the allegiance is mostly because of the convenience that it offers and not any true, unconditional, patriotic feelings.

I'm not sure I understand what true, unconditional, patriotic feelings are. I'm with Max on this. He is the only one who announced his allegiance, and he's made it clear that it is for more than convenience at this point. 

At least, I've also discovered the one fool-proof way to rankle fellow Indians in social settings is to declare your love for US with gusto. 

Don't tell me you believe in true, unconditional love and such feelings as well. 

>>>>Much of this loyalty thing is context-driven. I am however puzzled but Rishi's insistence that everyone diligently be mindful of his identity in every context. To keep the peace, I am hereby proposing we have our castes and subcastes imprinted on our foreheads. That could make for some weird conversations at client meetings and so forth, but hey at least we didn't step out of our pre-ordained caste identity

Well, that kind of goes on anyway even now, whether it be a crucifix around your neck, a yarmulke or a skull cap on your head.... and some people fashionably wearing a kudimi even with an other wise full head of hair.

unbridled patriotism makes a lot of people uncomfortable and i include myself in that group -- the sort of over the top, chest thumping kind, especially if it includes the words, "american exceptionalism". there is a particular strain of american politician and political commentator that embraces that sort of language. it makes me cringe. but i never imagined that something as mild as expressing agreement with a political position by a government that one voted for would result in so much derision to the point of being questioned about one's motives in posting the comment.

Hellsangel wrote:

Who are fellow Indians in this context? Indian passport holders or 1st generation Indian Americans?

I'm glad Such has you to tease the nuances out of carelessly flung words and comments. 

Anyway, I'm not sure how that info is helpful, but I'd caution that I'm prone to gross over generalizations. So far, it has happened only two times, once initiated by someone else, and another  time by this poster who was too bored. It works mostly for naturalized citizens and recent immigrants. Do a quick assessment on where they might be on the patriotism spectrum. Decide to proceed based on how bored you are, and if you are ready to work for your kicks, or if you'd rather enjoy your plate of biryani. Pick a topic that is doing rounds in India and go from there. Hope that helps?

ashaNirasha wrote:

Hellsangel wrote:

Who are fellow Indians in this context? Indian passport holders or 1st generation Indian Americans?

I'm glad Such has you to tease the nuances out of carelessly flung words and comments. 

Anyway, I'm not sure how that info is helpful, but I'd caution that I'm prone to gross over generalizations. So far, it has happened only two times, once initiated by someone else, and another  time by this poster who was too bored. It works mostly for naturalized citizens and recent immigrants. Do a quick assessment on where they might be on the patriotism spectrum. Decide to proceed based on how bored you are, and if you are ready to work for your kicks, or if you'd rather enjoy your plate of biryani. Pick a topic that is doing rounds in India and go from there. Hope that helps?

Referring to self in 3rd person? Do you know your "self"?

Biryani? Is that still a staple at Indian parties?

Referring to self in 3rd person? Do you know your "self"?

Biryani? Is that still a staple at Indian parties?

Too much time on such does that to people. You find yourself getting detached with no awareness of what the original thread was about, and mindlessly asking and answering stupid ass questions. Keeping in line with that, what is a staple at your parties? What kind of parties do you go to? Should I feel bad that biryani is still a staple at the parties  I've been to? Should we start another thread regarding that? Don't you feel uncomfortable talking about good food in a thread that has videos of killing fields and deaths?

ashaNirasha wrote:

Referring to self in 3rd person? Do you know your "self"?

Biryani? Is that still a staple at Indian parties?

Too much time on such does that to people. You find yourself getting detached with no awareness of what the original thread was about, and mindlessly asking and answering stupid ass questions. Keeping in line with that, what is a staple at your parties? What kind of parties do you go to? Should I feel bad that biryani is still a staple at the parties  I've been to? Should we start another thread regarding that? Don't you feel uncomfortable talking about good food in a thread that has videos of killing fields and deaths?

Oh I am very aware of what this thread is about. Incidentally I even watched the video posted. But sorry, I have no sympathy. This sort of thing has happened in many places all over the world. Serbia being a recent example. It happened post WWII all over East Europe. For someone who likes to keep boasting about his family's service in the Indian armed forces, it is shameful to not consider the casualties inflicted by the LTTE on the Indian Army. Maybe if there was someone in his immediate family that was affected by the LTTE, the shoe would be on the other foot and that would weigh over ethnicity. If the LTTE had the good sense to be holed up like Bhindranwale and his cohorts in one structure they could have spared all the civilians and died their martyrs' deaths. Not only that, they actually used human shields. Like the narrator himself said in the video the Sri Lankan army was determined to end the LTTE come hell or high water. You have to applaud that resolve. They finished what the Indian Army could not.

PS: Biryani is not my idea of 'good food'

Hellsangel wrote:

ashaNirasha wrote:

Referring to self in 3rd person? Do you know your "self"?

Biryani? Is that still a staple at Indian parties?

Too much time on such does that to people. You find yourself getting detached with no awareness of what the original thread was about, and mindlessly asking and answering stupid ass questions. Keeping in line with that, what is a staple at your parties? What kind of parties do you go to? Should I feel bad that biryani is still a staple at the parties  I've been to? Should we start another thread regarding that? Don't you feel uncomfortable talking about good food in a thread that has videos of killing fields and deaths?

Oh I am very aware of what this thread is about. Incidentally I even watched the video posted. But sorry, I have no sympathy. This sort of thing has happened in many places all over the world. Serbia being a recent example. It happened post WWII all over East Europe. For someone who likes to keep boasting about his family's service in the Indian armed forces, it is shameful to not consider the casualties inflicted by the LTTE on the Indian Army. Maybe if there was someone in his immediate family that was affected by the LTTE, the shoe would be on the other foot and that would weigh over ethnicity. If the LTTE had the good sense to be holed up like Bhindranwale and his cohorts in one structure they could have spared all the civilians and died their martyrs' deaths. Not only that, they actually used human shields. Like the narrator himself said in the video the Sri Lankan army was determined to end the LTTE come hell or high water. You have to applaud that resolve. They finished what the Indian Army could not.

PS: Biryani is not my idea of 'good food'

this is a lame post. i have NEVER condoned the LTTE or its methods. that i am even required to state that is ludicrous.  however, the sri lankan govt since it is a democratically elected body, and claims to represent all the citizens of sri lanka, will have greater expectations and is expected to act and behave more honorably.  specifically, they should expect to be held to a higher standard with respect to ethical behavior during a war and handling of civilians.

perhaps in your world filled with conspiracy theories, i have morphed into some other poster who posts on such issues here regularly.

and let me repeat -- the LTTE is finished. it is history, and a good thing too. let's focus now on the only body that is still very much alive and behaving criminally -- the sri lankan govt.

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

Hellsangel wrote:

ashaNirasha wrote:

Referring to self in 3rd person? Do you know your "self"?

Biryani? Is that still a staple at Indian parties?

Too much time on such does that to people. You find yourself getting detached with no awareness of what the original thread was about, and mindlessly asking and answering stupid ass questions. Keeping in line with that, what is a staple at your parties? What kind of parties do you go to? Should I feel bad that biryani is still a staple at the parties  I've been to? Should we start another thread regarding that? Don't you feel uncomfortable talking about good food in a thread that has videos of killing fields and deaths?

Oh I am very aware of what this thread is about. Incidentally I even watched the video posted. But sorry, I have no sympathy. This sort of thing has happened in many places all over the world. Serbia being a recent example. It happened post WWII all over East Europe. For someone who likes to keep boasting about his family's service in the Indian armed forces, it is shameful to not consider the casualties inflicted by the LTTE on the Indian Army. Maybe if there was someone in his immediate family that was affected by the LTTE, the shoe would be on the other foot and that would weigh over ethnicity. If the LTTE had the good sense to be holed up like Bhindranwale and his cohorts in one structure they could have spared all the civilians and died their martyrs' deaths. Not only that, they actually used human shields. Like the narrator himself said in the video the Sri Lankan army was determined to end the LTTE come hell or high water. You have to applaud that resolve. They finished what the Indian Army could not.

PS: Biryani is not my idea of 'good food'

this is a lame post. i have NEVER condoned the LTTE or its methods. that i am even required to state that is ludicrous.  however, the sri lankan govt since it is a democratically elected body, and claims to represent all the citizens of sri lanka, will have greater expectations and is expected to act and behave more honorably.  specifically, they should expect to be held to a higher standard with respect to ethical behavior during a war and handling of civilians.

perhaps in your world filled with conspiracy theories, i have morphed into some other poster who posts on such issues here regularly.

Sure. Tie their hands while the terrorists routinely use human shields. And, no, you don't have to morph into anyone. I didn't even state or suggest that here. But you know your history regarding that.

and since you mentioned serbia, people have been indicted and put on trial for war crimes there. i hope sri lankan war crimes are investigated at least as robustly.