Pappu can dance!

by Hellsangel Tue Feb 25, 2014 2:51 pm

http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/world/2014/02/24/india-got-talent-dancing-boy-akshat-singh-kapur-pkg.cnn.html

by michelle2 Tue Feb 25, 2014 3:32 pm

Hellsangel wrote:http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/world/2014/02/24/india-got-talent-dancing-boy-akshat-singh-kapur-pkg.cnn.html

But fat Pappu shouldn't dance.

by Hellsangel Tue Feb 25, 2014 4:36 pm

michelle2 wrote:
Hellsangel wrote:http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/world/2014/02/24/india-got-talent-dancing-boy-akshat-singh-kapur-pkg.cnn.html
But fat Pappu shouldn't dance.

But ~~Achachan~~ Ammachi, fat people are allowed to be delusional, na?

by bw Tue Feb 25, 2014 6:28 pm

michelle2 wrote:
Hellsangel wrote:http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/world/2014/02/24/india-got-talent-dancing-boy-akshat-singh-kapur-pkg.cnn.html
But fat Pappu shouldn't dance.

gundu maamis and toppai maamas also need to shake a leg every now and then.

by michelle2 Wed Feb 26, 2014 5:05 am

bw wrote:
michelle2 wrote:
Hellsangel wrote:http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/world/2014/02/24/india-got-talent-dancing-boy-akshat-singh-kapur-pkg.cnn.html
But fat Pappu shouldn't dance.

gundu maamis and toppai maamas also need to shake a leg every now and then.

A southern Indian I know told me that the correct spelling is "thoppai," not "toppai." He says that the English 't' sound, as in "tea" and "timber" doesn't occur in any spoken Indian language, so that sound doesn't occur in "thoppai" either.

by bw Wed Feb 26, 2014 5:34 am

michelle2 wrote:
bw wrote:
michelle2 wrote:
Hellsangel wrote:http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/world/2014/02/24/india-got-talent-dancing-boy-akshat-singh-kapur-pkg.cnn.html
But fat Pappu shouldn't dance.

gundu maamis and toppai maamas also need to shake a leg every now and then.
A southern Indian I know told me that the correct spelling is "thoppai," not "toppai." He says that the English 't' sound, as in "tea" and "timber" doesn't occur in any spoken Indian language, so that sound doesn't occur in "thoppai" either.

he is right. thoppai it is. i made a tappu, i mean, thappu.

by Guest Wed Feb 26, 2014 5:59 am

michelle2 wrote:
bw wrote:
michelle2 wrote:
Hellsangel wrote:http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/world/2014/02/24/india-got-talent-dancing-boy-akshat-singh-kapur-pkg.cnn.html
But fat Pappu shouldn't dance.

gundu maamis and toppai maamas also need to shake a leg every now and then.
A southern Indian I know told me that the correct spelling is "thoppai," not "toppai." He says that the English 't' sound, as in "tea" and "timber" doesn't occur in any spoken Indian language, so that sound doesn't occur in "thoppai" either.

Dear Michelle,
The English 't' sound as in tea or timber or tomato and also the french t sound as in savithri or savitri both occur in Sanskrit and also in Hindi. It is the zh sound that occurs in neither Sanskrit nor Hindi.

by b_A Wed Feb 26, 2014 12:36 pm

Rashmun wrote:
michelle2 wrote:
bw wrote:
michelle2 wrote:
Hellsangel wrote:http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/world/2014/02/24/india-got-talent-dancing-boy-akshat-singh-kapur-pkg.cnn.html
But fat Pappu shouldn't dance.

gundu maamis and toppai maamas also need to shake a leg every now and then.
A southern Indian I know told me that the correct spelling is "thoppai," not "toppai." He says that the English 't' sound, as in "tea" and "timber" doesn't occur in any spoken Indian language, so that sound doesn't occur in "thoppai" either.

Dear Michelle,
The English 't' sound as in tea or timber or tomato and also the french t sound as in savithri or savitri both occur in Sanskrit and also in Hindi. It is the zh sound that occurs in neither Sanskrit nor Hindi.

Rashmun ,
Curious to know what changes you observed in him/her after the gender change. How did it affect the relationship?

by ashaNirasha Wed Feb 26, 2014 1:11 pm

michelle2 wrote:
bw wrote:
michelle2 wrote:
Hellsangel wrote:http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/world/2014/02/24/india-got-talent-dancing-boy-akshat-singh-kapur-pkg.cnn.html
But fat Pappu shouldn't dance.

gundu maamis and toppai maamas also need to shake a leg every now and then.
A southern Indian I know told me that the correct spelling is "thoppai," not "toppai." He says that the English 't' sound, as in "tea" and "timber" doesn't occur in any spoken Indian language, so that sound doesn't occur in "thoppai" either.

You are probably better off not quoting an ignorant southern Indian who appears to equate
one Indian language to any Indian language.

Just FYI, Hindi and Telugu have the 't' sound.

by michelle2 Wed Feb 26, 2014 1:29 pm

ashaNirasha wrote:
michelle2 wrote:
bw wrote:
michelle2 wrote:
Hellsangel wrote:http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/world/2014/02/24/india-got-talent-dancing-boy-akshat-singh-kapur-pkg.cnn.html
But fat Pappu shouldn't dance.

gundu maamis and toppai maamas also need to shake a leg every now and then.
A southern Indian I know told me that the correct spelling is "thoppai," not "toppai." He says that the English 't' sound, as in "tea" and "timber" doesn't occur in any spoken Indian language, so that sound doesn't occur in "thoppai" either.
You are probably better off not quoting an ignorant southern Indian who appears to equate
one Indian language to any Indian language.

Just FYI, Hindi and Telugu have the 't' sound.

I disagree. The southern Indian I quoted lived in India for the first twenty-two years of his life, in the last six of which, at least 70% of the people he lived among were north Indians. Those people included Telugus. They never uttered a single 't' no matter what language they spoke.

You and the others here probably think the 't' occurs in Indian languages because you never utter it either, and don't know what it sounds like. No one can say the word "tea" correctly in India; it's always "ttea." The 't' of the English language has never been uttered in India. It's a genetic incapability.

by confuzzled dude Wed Feb 26, 2014 2:06 pm

michelle2 wrote:
ashaNirasha wrote:
michelle2 wrote:
bw wrote:
michelle2 wrote:
But fat Pappu shouldn't dance.

gundu maamis and toppai maamas also need to shake a leg every now and then.
A southern Indian I know told me that the correct spelling is "thoppai," not "toppai." He says that the English 't' sound, as in "tea" and "timber" doesn't occur in any spoken Indian language, so that sound doesn't occur in "thoppai" either.
You are probably better off not quoting an ignorant southern Indian who appears to equate
one Indian language to any Indian language.

Just FYI, Hindi and Telugu have the 't' sound.
I disagree. The southern Indian I quoted lived in India for the first twenty-two years of his life, in the last six of which, at least 70% of the people he lived among were north Indians. Those people included Telugus. They never uttered a single 't' no matter what language they spoke.

You and the others here probably think the 't' occurs in Indian languages because you never utter it either, and don't know what it sounds like. No one can say the word "tea" correctly in India; it's always "ttea." The 't' of the English language has never been uttered in India. It's a genetic incapability.

Do you know that there are two 't' sounds as well two 'th' sounds in Telugu & Hindi, each has two alphabets (4 all together) representing those sounds.

by ashaNirasha Wed Feb 26, 2014 2:13 pm

michelle2 wrote:
ashaNirasha wrote:
michelle2 wrote:
bw wrote:
michelle2 wrote:
But fat Pappu shouldn't dance.

gundu maamis and toppai maamas also need to shake a leg every now and then.
A southern Indian I know told me that the correct spelling is "thoppai," not "toppai." He says that the English 't' sound, as in "tea" and "timber" doesn't occur in any spoken Indian language, so that sound doesn't occur in "thoppai" either.
You are probably better off not quoting an ignorant southern Indian who appears to equate
one Indian language to any Indian language.

Just FYI, Hindi and Telugu have the 't' sound.
I disagree. The southern Indian I quoted lived in India for the first twenty-two years of his life, in the last six of which, at least 70% of the people he lived among were north Indians. Those people included Telugus. They never uttered a single 't' no matter what language they spoke.

You and the others here probably think the 't' occurs in Indian languages because you never utter it either, and don't know what it sounds like. No one can say the word "tea" correctly in India; it's always "ttea." The 't' of the English language has never been uttered in India. It's a genetic incapability.

What? I don't know what to do with that, but do you understand or speak Telugu, Michelle?

Nenu mee intiki raana? Vasthe Naaku tea petti isthara? Nenosthanante vaddantara? Meeku Guntur telusa?
Ee forum lo andaru poti padi mari kottukuntaru.

More examples - aata, paata. I'll stop because this is just too ridiculous.

by ashaNirasha Wed Feb 26, 2014 2:37 pm

I know I said I'll stop, but just realized how many 't' and 'th' sounds were in a Telugu word I was thinking- 'thittukuntunte'. Haha.

by truthbetold Wed Feb 26, 2014 3:12 pm

Arrogance+idiocy=flimflam=Michelle

by michelle2 Wed Feb 26, 2014 3:34 pm

ashaNirasha wrote:
michelle2 wrote:
ashaNirasha wrote:
michelle2 wrote:
bw wrote:

gundu maamis and toppai maamas also need to shake a leg every now and then.
A southern Indian I know told me that the correct spelling is "thoppai," not "toppai." He says that the English 't' sound, as in "tea" and "timber" doesn't occur in any spoken Indian language, so that sound doesn't occur in "thoppai" either.
You are probably better off not quoting an ignorant southern Indian who appears to equate
one Indian language to any Indian language.

Just FYI, Hindi and Telugu have the 't' sound.
I disagree. The southern Indian I quoted lived in India for the first twenty-two years of his life, in the last six of which, at least 70% of the people he lived among were north Indians. Those people included Telugus. They never uttered a single 't' no matter what language they spoke.

You and the others here probably think the 't' occurs in Indian languages because you never utter it either, and don't know what it sounds like. No one can say the word "tea" correctly in India; it's always "ttea." The 't' of the English language has never been uttered in India. It's a genetic incapability.
What? I don't know what to do with that, but do you understand or speak Telugu, Michelle?

Nenu mee intiki raana? Vasthe Naaku tea petti isthara? Nenosthanante vaddantara? Meeku Guntur telusa?
Ee forum lo andaru poti padi mari kottukuntaru.

More examples - aata, paata. I'll stop because this is just too ridiculous.

I understand a little Telugu, but don't speak it; I don't need to, to know that neither the Telugus nor anyone else in India utters the English 't' in their native language or in English. They merely think that they say it, but don't.

The problem is evident in your spelling of Guntur; the word is not pronounced the way it is spelt in English, which is arguably merely the closest spelling in English script. Clearly, the 't' in Guntur is not to be pronounced as that in "winter" or "Santorini." (A better spelling might be GuNTur.) However, since Guntur and winter have the same 't' in them, and you and other Indians pronounce them in much the same way, you argue that the 't' in "winter" is the same as that in Guntur, and mispronounce "winter."

by truthbetold Wed Feb 26, 2014 3:48 pm

Who decides t in gunter is not pronounced correctly? that spelling was from the official records of British times.
now the all knowing flimflam will claim British do not know how to pronounce t.
you don't know Telugu. Now that your pompous statements are proven to be nonsensical just refrain from making statements about things you don't know.

it won't hurt your aged tired brain cells to remain quite for a while.

by Propagandhi711 Wed Feb 26, 2014 3:53 pm

michelle2 wrote:
ashaNirasha wrote:
michelle2 wrote:
ashaNirasha wrote:
michelle2 wrote:
A southern Indian I know told me that the correct spelling is "thoppai," not "toppai." He says that the English 't' sound, as in "tea" and "timber" doesn't occur in any spoken Indian language, so that sound doesn't occur in "thoppai" either.
You are probably better off not quoting an ignorant southern Indian who appears to equate
one Indian language to any Indian language.

Just FYI, Hindi and Telugu have the 't' sound.
I disagree. The southern Indian I quoted lived in India for the first twenty-two years of his life, in the last six of which, at least 70% of the people he lived among were north Indians. Those people included Telugus. They never uttered a single 't' no matter what language they spoke.

You and the others here probably think the 't' occurs in Indian languages because you never utter it either, and don't know what it sounds like. No one can say the word "tea" correctly in India; it's always "ttea." The 't' of the English language has never been uttered in India. It's a genetic incapability.
What? I don't know what to do with that, but do you understand or speak Telugu, Michelle?

Nenu mee intiki raana? Vasthe Naaku tea petti isthara? Nenosthanante vaddantara? Meeku Guntur telusa?
Ee forum lo andaru poti padi mari kottukuntaru.

More examples - aata, paata. I'll stop because this is just too ridiculous.
I understand a little Telugu, but don't speak it; I don't need to, to know that neither the Telugus nor anyone else in India utters the English 't' in their native language or in English. They merely think that they say it, but don't.

The problem is evident in your spelling of Guntur; the word is not pronounced the way it is spelt in English, which is arguably merely the closest spelling in English script. Clearly, the 't' in Guntur is not to be pronounced as that in "winter" or "Santorini." (A better spelling might be GuNTur.) However, since Guntur and winter have the same 't' in them, and you and other Indians pronounce them in much the same way, you argue that the 't' in "winter" is the same as that in Guntur, and mispronounce "winter."

are you for real, senile dickhead? why dont you get some hairy cats and spend your time shaving them rather than subject us to your idiocy on a continual basis on such? they should have a timeline on sulekha/such just for you to show all the things you said over the years that are utterly stupid and wrong, yet are uttered with such certainty and aplomb

by michelle2 Wed Feb 26, 2014 4:19 pm

truthbetold wrote:Who decides t in gunter is not pronounced correctly? that spelling was from the official records of British times.
now the all knowing flimflam will claim British do not know how to pronounce t.
you don't know Telugu. Now that your pompous statements are proven to be nonsensical just refrain from making statements about things you don't know.

it won't hurt your aged tired brain cells to remain quite for a while.

The name of the city you refer to should be said the way the Telugus say it. I have heard it said many times by Telugus, so I know the correct word. G-u-n-t-u-r is not the perfect spelling for it. If G-u-n-t-u-r is pronounced the way it is spelt, the name wouldn't sound right.

People, especially Telugus, say the word correctly, but continue to spell it as G-u-n-t-u-r, hence, they argue that all 't's, including the one in "winter," should be pronounced the way the 't' in G-u-n-t-u-r is. That is a reason for the mispronunciation of numerous words like "winter" by Indians, and AshaNirasha's confusion.

The word is "quiet," not "quite"; the two have different meanings and pronunciations.

The British did not know how to pronounce many Indian words.

Who is this flimflam who makes you quake in your shoes?

by ashaNirasha Wed Feb 26, 2014 4:21 pm

michelle2 wrote:
I disagree. The southern Indian I quoted lived in India for the first twenty-two years of his life, in the last six of which, at least 70% of the people he lived among were north Indians. Those people included Telugus. They never uttered a single 't' no matter what language they spoke. wrote:

You and the others here probably think the 't' occurs in Indian languages because you never utter it either, and don't know what it sounds like. No one can say the word "tea" correctly in India; it's always "ttea." The 't' of the English language has never been uttered in India.
I understand a little Telugu, but don't speak it; I don't need to, to know that neither the Telugus nor anyone else in India utters the English 't' in their native language or in English. They merely think that they say it, but don't.

The problem is evident in your spelling of Guntur; the word is not pronounced the way it is spelt in English, which is arguably merely the closest spelling in English script. Clearly, the 't' in Guntur is not to be pronounced as that in "winter" or "Santorini." (A better spelling might be GuNTur.) However, since Guntur and winter have the same 't' in them, and you and other Indians pronounce them in much the same way, you argue that the 't' in "winter" is the same as that in Guntur, and mispronounce "winter."

I did not argue that.

I don't know where 'winter' popped up from all of a sudden. You started with 'timber' and moved to 'winter'. The 't' in Guntur will still have the same 't' sound as in timber, no matter how you pronounce it.

I agree there are different sounds to 't' in English, but you were stating that there is no sound resembling the 't' as in timber in any Indian language, and I pointed that it is not the case. Now, if you've never heard that sound in an Indian language, I'm just sorry you've lost an opportunity to learn more.

Also, 'winter' is not the only word I might be mispronouncing. I can think of several others. It's a learning process for us non-native English speakers. Sometimes we learn, sometimes we just can't. But it still is better to be no good at pronunciation than argue about sounds in a language you don't even speak, IMO.

by michelle2 Wed Feb 26, 2014 4:48 pm

ashaNirasha wrote:
michelle2 wrote:
I disagree. The southern Indian I quoted lived in India for the first twenty-two years of his life, in the last six of which, at least 70% of the people he lived among were north Indians. Those people included Telugus. They never uttered a single 't' no matter what language they spoke. wrote:

You and the others here probably think the 't' occurs in Indian languages because you never utter it either, and don't know what it sounds like. No one can say the word "tea" correctly in India; it's always "ttea." The 't' of the English language has never been uttered in India.
I understand a little Telugu, but don't speak it; I don't need to, to know that neither the Telugus nor anyone else in India utters the English 't' in their native language or in English. They merely think that they say it, but don't.

The problem is evident in your spelling of Guntur; the word is not pronounced the way it is spelt in English, which is arguably merely the closest spelling in English script. Clearly, the 't' in Guntur is not to be pronounced as that in "winter" or "Santorini." (A better spelling might be GuNTur.) However, since Guntur and winter have the same 't' in them, and you and other Indians pronounce them in much the same way, you argue that the 't' in "winter" is the same as that in Guntur, and mispronounce "winter."
I did not argue that.

I don't know where 'winter' popped up from all of a sudden. You started with 'timber' and moved to 'winter'. The 't' in Guntur will still have the same 't' sound as in timber, no matter how you pronounce it.

I agree there are different sounds to 't' in English, but you were stating that there is no sound resembling the 't' as in timber in any Indian language, and I pointed that it is not the case. Now, if you've never heard that sound in an Indian language, I'm just sorry you've lost an opportunity to learn more.

Also, 'winter' is not the only word I might be mispronouncing. I can think of several others. It's a learning process for us non-native English speakers. Sometimes we learn, sometimes we just can't. But it still is better to be no good at pronunciation than argue about sounds in a language you don't even speak, IMO.

There is only one pronunciation of the letter 't' in English when it does not occur in combination with a letter like 'h', as in "with." The sound of the 't' in each of the following words is the same: "winter," "timber," "tea," and "Santorini." There is no such sound in any Indian language. Nearly every Indian mispronounces English words like "winter" and "tea," partly because the 't' in each of those words is the same as the 't' in the mis-spelt "Guntur."

I don't have to speak Telugu in order to hear it, or have an opinion about the sound of a word.

by ashaNirasha Wed Feb 26, 2014 5:31 pm

michelle2 wrote:

I don't have to speak Telugu in order to hear it, or have an opinion about the sound of a word.

Well, that sorta sums it up. Opinions are good, and I like them. I have lots of them, I just don't let people know them because I once told somebody earth is really square shaped, and they started arguing, and I just told them it was my opinion, and they can shove it.

I can see that we are birds of the same feather and all that. We belong here, Michelle.

by truthbetold Wed Feb 26, 2014 5:40 pm

Flimflam
repeating what you have to say again and again does not make it more convincing.
If you understand linguistics you will stand that no two languages have exactly same phonetic sounds unless they have same roots. when words are opted into other languages they do the best approximation possible. in fact native speakers themselves pronounce letters and words . Language changes every 20 miles.of civilization. Don't try to overlay recent tv induced similarity as fact for all languages.

languages become languages because people use them . variations and approximation are part of language.
coming back to Telugu you can run an experiment on a word like tom.have 10 English speakers say the word and record them. then go to guntur and pick ten literate non English speaking people and ask them to say the same word and record.

by MaxEntropy_Man Wed Feb 26, 2014 7:25 pm

there are some "english" accents that are sometimes difficult to understand. for instance this:

i bet many indian accents even though have their peculiarities are much easier to understand from the standpoint of a neutral observer than the cockney accent.

here is a sampling of indian accents. which one is your favorite? mine is naseeruddin shah.

my least favorite accents are juhi chawla, preity zinta, and the gujarati businessman whatsisname.

by MaxEntropy_Man Wed Feb 26, 2014 7:31 pm

there is no such thing as a correct english accent. we are too far gone for all that now. there are many english accents including the english english accent (what used to be called received pronunciation or RP) that all vary in degrees of comprehensibility. even that most veritable of all english institutions, the beeb, has accepted that. their newsreaders and correspondents have many accents including -- scottish, irish, australian, indian english, and of course RP.

there are many accents that are far more dislikable than many indian english accents -- i don't care for american southern accents and the blue collar new england accent. they are both nails on chalkboard.

by MaxEntropy_Man Wed Feb 26, 2014 7:38 pm

this is english too:

by bw Wed Feb 26, 2014 7:52 pm

by michelle2 Thu Feb 27, 2014 12:56 am

ashaNirasha wrote:
michelle2 wrote:

I don't have to speak Telugu in order to hear it, or have an opinion about the sound of a word.

Well, that sorta sums it up. Opinions are good, and I like them. I have lots of them, I just don't let people know them because I once told somebody earth is really square shaped, and they started arguing, and I just told them it was my opinion, and they can shove it.

I can see that we are birds of the same feather and all that. We belong here, Michelle.

don't flatter yourself, ashaNira; we are not birds of the same feather. My long experience hearing Indians speak in English tells me that there is no 't' as in the english words "tea," "timber" and "winter" in any Indian language, and you disagreed, saying that the 't's in the telugu words Guntur and "intiki" are the same. That proves that you routinely mispronounce the 't's in "tea," etc. to sound like that in Guntur, etc. you are only one of millions of Indians who do that. And that's precisely what I've said right from the beginning. Thank you for proving me right.

by michelle2 Thu Feb 27, 2014 1:02 am

truthbetold wrote:Flimflam
repeating what you have to say again and again does not make it more convincing.
If you understand linguistics you will stand that no two languages have exactly same phonetic sounds unless they have same roots. when words are opted into other languages they do the best approximation possible. in fact native speakers themselves pronounce letters and words . Language changes every 20 miles.of civilization. Don't try to overlay recent tv induced similarity as fact for all languages.

languages become languages because people use them . variations and approximation are part of language.
coming back to Telugu you can run an experiment on a word like tom.have 10 English speakers say the word and record them. then go to guntur and pick ten literate non English speaking people and ask them to say the same word and record.

TBT, Indian English is not an approximation of English.

by michelle2 Thu Feb 27, 2014 1:30 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:there is no such thing as a correct english accent.

we are too far gone for all that now. there are many english accents including the english english accent (what used to be called received pronunciation or RP) that all vary in degrees of comprehensibility. even that most veritable of all english institutions, the beeb, has accepted that. their newsreaders and correspondents have many accents including -- scottish, irish, australian, indian english, and of course RP.

there are many accents that are far more dislikable than many indian english accents -- i don't care for american southern accents and the blue collar new england accent. they are both nails on chalkboard.

There is such a thing as standard English. No communication is possible unless there is such a standard. Standard English is an agreed-upon code. There is some variation around the standard. Extreme variation from the standard makes decoding impossible.

Indian English exhibits extreme variation, largely because, in the four to five decades that followed independence, during which India was a closed country, there was no one to set standards. Indian English is often impossible to decode, political correctness notwithstanding. I could never understand what my classmates Phuke, Tikle, Krishnamurthy, and Gangwar were saying. They survived because there was another language called Mathematics.

Apparently, the BBC and you discovered political correctness at about the same time. Are you now more accepting of non-standard English merely because the BBC is? What are your reasons?

by bw Thu Feb 27, 2014 4:46 am

oh, i just watched the video in the original post and also his other performance.

i feel sad for that little boy and the 'moves' he is made to do.

on another note, yeah, michelle is right on this "t" business.

by truthbetold Thu Feb 27, 2014 5:26 am

Flimflam

If you know something, there is a way to share that knowledge with other people. Indo shares his knowledge of telugu literature to delight others. Max posts carnatic music related information to help others explore. Impy provides interesting tidbits of her BN passion.

But no one is acerbic like you always seeking attention and needing appreciation for your imagined expertise in queen's english.

Your intense hatred of anything indian and hindu indicates a nazi like mentality. Since you are impotent to act you take it out on netizens from the safety of your anonymity.

by MaxEntropy_Man Thu Feb 27, 2014 6:47 am

michelle2 wrote:
There is such a thing as standard English.

yes there is.

michelle2 wrote:No communication is possible unless there is such a standard. Standard English is an agreed-upon code. There is some variation around the standard. Extreme variation from the standard makes decoding impossible.

no problem with any of this, but i thought we were discussing only one aspect of language here, namely accents.

michelle2 wrote:Indian English exhibits extreme variation, largely because, in the four to five decades that followed independence, during which India was a closed country, there was no one to set standards. Indian English is often impossible to decode, political correctness notwithstanding. I could never understand what my classmates Phuke, Tikle, Krishnamurthy, and Gangwar were saying. They survived because there was another language called Mathematics.

most indians speak english of a variety that exhibits no more variation from the standard than cockney or appalachian english. if it's possible to accept those variations as close to the standard, then it should be possible to accept indian english as variants.

michelle2 wrote:Apparently, the BBC and you discovered political correctness at about the same time. Are you now more accepting of non-standard English merely because the BBC is? What are your reasons?

simply put, to do otherwise would be futile in my line of work where i run into people from a large cross section of humanity who all speak in wonderfully screwed up accents. i can't speak for the beeb, but i suspect their reasons are similar.

by garam_kuta Thu Feb 27, 2014 7:55 am

just sound hysterical and neurotic- the very essence of english Smile

by Guest Thu Feb 27, 2014 10:40 am

michelle2 wrote:
Hellsangel wrote:http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/world/2014/02/24/india-got-talent-dancing-boy-akshat-singh-kapur-pkg.cnn.html
But fat Pappu shouldn't dance.

Did you say something about us people dancing?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKJ-APGHG_c

hehe... i think everybody should dance. Fat or skinny, big or small, serious or comedy, good or bad; all should dance when the music is good. I have much more respect for someone who goes up on the dance floor than the one who sits outside and just watch (myself being one of them at times - more in the past though). Having said that, it's much more enjoyable to watch a GOOD fat dancer than someone who considers themselves goodlooking, but dance worse than the Elaine character on Seinfeld.

by michelle2 Thu Feb 27, 2014 3:37 pm

TBT wrote:Indo shares his knowledge of telugu literature to delight others.

And he shared his knowledge scratch

of puns

and his delightful humour scratch

when he wrote: "Bhenkatrao, Bhenkatrao, bhy are you bhandering in the bherandah like a bhagabond?"

by Impedimenta Thu Feb 27, 2014 3:53 pm

michelle2 wrote:
TBT wrote:Indo shares his knowledge of telugu literature to delight others.
And he shared his knowledge of puns and his delightful humour when he wrote: "Bhenkatrao, Bhenkatrao, bhy are you bhandering in the bherandah like a bhagabond?"

talking about verandahs, are they the same as balconies? i wonder. Well, i had an elaborate dream about my home in chennai [possibly because i was just there] where i was running around the verandahs and the terrace sometimes dancing with glee. There is no way i can talk about this dream in any other thread and i thank you for bringing up the verandah.

by Propagandhi711 Thu Feb 27, 2014 3:54 pm

michelle2 wrote:
TBT wrote:Indo shares his knowledge of telugu literature to delight others.
And he shared his knowledge of puns and his delightful humour when he wrote: "Bhenkatrao, Bhenkatrao, bhy are you bhandering in the bherandah like a bhagabond?"

you forgot to comment on his other two points:

But no one is acerbic like you always seeking attention and needing appreciation for your imagined expertise in queen's english.

Your intense hatred of anything indian and hindu indicates a nazi like mentality. Since you are impotent to act you take it out on netizens from the safety of your anonymity.

by michelle2 Thu Feb 27, 2014 4:06 pm

Propagandhi711 wrote:
michelle2 wrote:
TBT wrote:Indo shares his knowledge of telugu literature to delight others.
And he shared his knowledge of puns and his delightful humour when he wrote: "Bhenkatrao, Bhenkatrao, bhy are you bhandering in the bherandah like a bhagabond?"

you forgot to comment on his other two points:

But no one is acerbic like you always seeking attention and needing appreciation for your imagined expertise in queen's english.

Your intense hatred of anything indian and hindu indicates a nazi like mentality. Since you are impotent to act you take it out on netizens from the safety of your anonymity.

I didn't forget; I wanted hear you whine.

by Propagandhi711 Thu Feb 27, 2014 4:11 pm

michelle2 wrote:
Propagandhi711 wrote:
michelle2 wrote:
TBT wrote:Indo shares his knowledge of telugu literature to delight others.
And he shared his knowledge of puns and his delightful humour when he wrote: "Bhenkatrao, Bhenkatrao, bhy are you bhandering in the bherandah like a bhagabond?"

you forgot to comment on his other two points:

But no one is acerbic like you always seeking attention and needing appreciation for your imagined expertise in queen's english.

Your intense hatred of anything indian and hindu indicates a nazi like mentality. Since you are impotent to act you take it out on netizens from the safety of your anonymity.
I didn't forget; I wanted hear you whine.

do you also mistake ass kicking for apology regularly? is it a consequence of growing senility or part of your genetic makeup and upbringing?

PS: when did you turn tranny or did you assume the dual role of your yogurt licking tranny girlfriend?

by michelle2 Thu Feb 27, 2014 4:17 pm

Propagandhi711 wrote:
michelle2 wrote:
Propagandhi711 wrote:
michelle2 wrote:
TBT wrote:Indo shares his knowledge of telugu literature to delight others.
And he shared his knowledge of puns and his delightful humour when he wrote: "Bhenkatrao, Bhenkatrao, bhy are you bhandering in the bherandah like a bhagabond?"

you forgot to comment on his other two points:

But no one is acerbic like you always seeking attention and needing appreciation for your imagined expertise in queen's english.

Your intense hatred of anything indian and hindu indicates a nazi like mentality. Since you are impotent to act you take it out on netizens from the safety of your anonymity.
I didn't forget; I wanted hear you whine.

do you also mistake ass kicking for apology regularly? is it a consequence of growing senility or part of your genetic makeup and upbringing?

PS: when did you turn tranny or did you assume the dual role of your yogurt licking tranny girlfriend?

Thanks for the long whine; it was delightful.

by b_A Thu Feb 27, 2014 4:52 pm

truthbetold wrote:Flimflam

If you know something, there is a way to share that knowledge with other people. Indo shares his knowledge of telugu literature to delight others. Max posts carnatic music related information to help others explore. Impy provides interesting tidbits of her BN passion.

But no one is acerbic like you always seeking attention and needing appreciation for your imagined expertise in queen's english.

Your intense hatred of anything indian and hindu indicates a nazi like mentality. Since you are impotent to act you take it out on netizens from the safety of your anonymity.

TBT ,

Didn't you come across the saying , "There is no fool like an old fool!" ?
Good luck trying to convince the leopard to change its spots.

by Propagandhi711 Thu Feb 27, 2014 5:03 pm

michelle2 wrote:
Propagandhi711 wrote:
michelle2 wrote:
Propagandhi711 wrote:
michelle2 wrote:
And he shared his knowledge of puns and his delightful humour when he wrote: "Bhenkatrao, Bhenkatrao, bhy are you bhandering in the bherandah like a bhagabond?"

you forgot to comment on his other two points:

But no one is acerbic like you always seeking attention and needing appreciation for your imagined expertise in queen's english.

Your intense hatred of anything indian and hindu indicates a nazi like mentality. Since you are impotent to act you take it out on netizens from the safety of your anonymity.
I didn't forget; I wanted hear you whine.

do you also mistake ass kicking for apology regularly? is it a consequence of growing senility or part of your genetic makeup and upbringing?

PS: when did you turn tranny or did you assume the dual role of your yogurt licking tranny girlfriend?
Thanks for the long whine; it was delightful.

senile and eyesight going...two liners look like a long whine these days to your eyes?

by michelle2 Fri Feb 28, 2014 2:27 am

MaxEntropyMan wrote:most indians speak english of a variety that exhibits no more variation from the standard than cockney or appalachian english. if it's possible to accept those variations as close to the standard, then it should be possible to accept indian english as variants.

The Cockneys and Appalachians are native speakers of their respective languages, whatever you call those languages. Those are the languages they learnt from their mothers in infancy. They had to speak Cockney or Appalachian in order to be fed.

College-educated Indians, on the other hand, learnt their English in schools and colleges, as a foreign language. They were not emotionally or culturally constrained to speak English as their parents did. Indeed, many of their parents didn't speak any English at all. They had more choice in the way they spoke English, especially in this age of the internet and Youtube. Moreover, Cockneys and Appalachians are not selling their language abilities to service customers in remote call centers as Indians are. An ability to speak in Standard English is absolutely essential when one services customers from different parts of the world.

Which variant of a foreign language would one speak? Standard English or Weird English?

MaxEntropyMan wrote:simply put, to do otherwise would be futile in my line of work where i run into people from a large cross section of humanity who all speak in wonderfully screwed up accents. i can't speak for the beeb, but i suspect their reasons are similar.

The BBC is not in the same position as that cross section of humanity that communicates with you at your University. The BBC is broadcasting news and other info to the whole world, in spoken English. Listeners expect to hear the same English every day, in every broadcast. Non-standard accents of English such as Scottish, Irish, Welsh, African, and Indian degrade their ability to transmit information effectively. The BBC's easy acceptance of these accents in recent times is one of the worst policy decisions they could have made.

Fortunately, no one can be forced to follow the BBC's poor decision, made, I'm sure, for political correctness.

by MaxEntropy_Man Fri Feb 28, 2014 2:06 pm

michelle2 wrote:
The BBC is not in the same position as that cross section of humanity that communicates with you at your University. The BBC is broadcasting news and other info to the whole world, in spoken English. Listeners expect to hear the same English every day, in every broadcast. Non-standard accents of English such as Scottish, Irish, Welsh, African, and Indian degrade their ability to transmit information effectively. The BBC's easy acceptance of these accents in recent times is one of the worst policy decisions they could have made.
orrectness.

do you consider australian, south african, american, and new zealand english to be non-standard? what exactly is the standard? i agree there are many indians whose english is nearly incomprehensible unless you are familiar with the peculiar inflections -- many rural bengali, UP, and maharashtrian folks (your favorite "dipherant dipherantareas in hospital" is a case in point) in particular are very difficult to follow. however, IMO, many urban, educated indians speak grammatically* correct english which is not difficult to follow. it may have some peculiarities left over from the british raj, but i am not quite sure why you have problems accepting that as a variant when you seem to have no such problems with say australian english.

* mostly

by Idéfix Fri Feb 28, 2014 4:04 pm

michelle2 wrote:Clearly, the 't' in Guntur is not to be pronounced as that in "winter" or "Santorini."

Michelle-ji, you seem to think that the t sounds in winter and Santorini are pronounced the same way. Santorini is a Greek word, and the Greeks don't pronounce the t in Santorini the way Americans pronounce the t in winter.

by Idéfix Fri Feb 28, 2014 4:13 pm

michelle2 wrote:Indian English exhibits extreme variation, largely because, in the four to five decades that followed independence, during which India was a closed country, there was no one to set standards. Indian English is often impossible to decode, political correctness notwithstanding. I could never understand what my classmates Phuke, Tikle, Krishnamurthy, and Gangwar were saying. They survived because there was another language called Mathematics.

It appears that you had a comprehension problem, while they all decoded just fine the Indian English that they all spoke. It also appears that you seek to blame them for your problems with comprehension.

by michelle2 Fri Feb 28, 2014 4:37 pm

Idéfix wrote:
michelle2 wrote:Indian English exhibits extreme variation, largely because, in the four to five decades that followed independence, during which India was a closed country, there was no one to set standards. Indian English is often impossible to decode, political correctness notwithstanding. I could never understand what my classmates Phuke, Tikle, Krishnamurthy, and Gangwar were saying. They survived because there was another language called Mathematics.
It appears that you had a comprehension problem, while they all decoded just fine the Indian English that they all spoke. It also appears that you seek to blame them for your problems with comprehension.

You wouldn't know because you didn't hear them. It is unlikely that they understood one another either because they spoke Weird1 English, Weird2 English, and Weird3 English.

by michelle2 Fri Feb 28, 2014 4:45 pm

Idéfix wrote:
michelle2 wrote:Clearly, the 't' in Guntur is not to be pronounced as that in "winter" or "Santorini."
Michelle-ji, you seem to think that the t sounds in winter and Santorini are pronounced the same way. Santorini is a Greek word, and the Greeks don't pronounce the t in Santorini the way Americans pronounce the t in winter.

Do you think that the 't' sound in "Guntur" is pronounced the same way as that in "winter?"

by michelle2 Fri Feb 28, 2014 5:37 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
michelle2 wrote:
The BBC is not in the same position as that cross section of humanity that communicates with you at your University. The BBC is broadcasting news and other info to the whole world, in spoken English. Listeners expect to hear the same English every day, in every broadcast. Non-standard accents of English such as Scottish, Irish, Welsh, African, and Indian degrade their ability to transmit information effectively. The BBC's easy acceptance of these accents in recent times is one of the worst policy decisions they could have made.
orrectness.

do you consider australian, south african, american, and new zealand english to be non-standard? what exactly is the standard? i agree there are many indians whose english is nearly incomprehensible unless you are familiar with the peculiar inflections -- many rural bengali, UP, and maharashtrian folks (your favorite "dipherant dipherantareas in hospital" is a case in point) in particular are very difficult to follow. however, IMO, many urban, educated indians speak grammatically* correct english which is not difficult to follow. it may have some peculiarities left over from the british raj, but i am not quite sure why you have problems accepting that as a variant when you seem to have no such problems with say australian english.

* mostly

I don't question the languages spoken by native speakers of English such as Australians and Americans. They have no choice. Educated Indians speaking English, a foreign language, should speak a Standard English for two reasons:

1. There are many versions of Indian English: Bengali English, Maharashtrian English, Gujarati English, Tamil English, etc. Not only are they not understood in the rest of the world, they are not well understood in the parts of India where they didn't originate;

2. The variations in Indian English are extreme. Sometimes they sound comical, and are distracting. At other times, they sound like non-existent words (Bhenkatrao's "bhagabond"), or convey the wrong meaning ("purposefully" for "purposely").

Indians have the choice that Australians don't have. They can and should train themselves to speak Standard English as closely as possible.

If you want to know what I mean by Standard spoken English, you might listen to Shashi Tharoor; it can't be described in written words.

Neither Australian nor American English is aesthetically appealing to me, but I can comprehend both well.

by MaxEntropy_Man Fri Feb 28, 2014 6:00 pm

michelle2 wrote:

If you want to know what I mean by Standard spoken English, you might listen to Shashi Tharoor; it can't be described in written words.

shashi tharoor sounds like an urban educated indian who has been speaking english for a very long time. his "t" certainly doesn't sound anything close to your desired "t". there are many indians who speak like him.

in particular he doesn't sound anything like someone trained at the RSC like this guy for example:

btw, if something is difficult to describe, it certainly cannot be a standard. comprehensibility to me is sufficient. i love the english language and i think you do too. but the great thing about english is the amount of delicious bastardization it has allowed itself to undergo while traveling through billions of tongues and palates. to impose some prissy notions of purity on a language whose essence is linguistic promiscuity seems silly to me. english is not french or sanskrit, or even tamil.

by Sponsored content