Vegetarianism no good!

by indophile Fri Apr 04, 2014 8:53 am

Pretty soon the beef, pork, and chicken industries here will start featuring the study TV commercials.

(In India it could be lamb, goat, chicken, eggs)

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/home/science/Vegetarians-are-less-healthy-and-have-a-lower-quality-of-life-than-meat-eaters-scientists-say/articleshow/33225827.cms?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=referral

by Merlot Daruwala Fri Apr 04, 2014 9:02 am

Bwahaha...all that self-denial wasted...

by Maria S Fri Apr 04, 2014 9:19 am

I am a non-veg, so I may be biased:)

Anyways, something - everyone is interested in..not sure if you are all keeping up with the latest studies-controversies about daily salt intake.

I have always felt the CDC salt intake guidelines were too low - even for people who have/family history of Hypertension. Consuming 2500-3000 mg/day of salt does not make any difference, there are so many other factors. Just like the overblown cholesterol-eggs connection.

Just monitor BP on a regular basis..using some common sense-moderation, when it comes to salt intake, should be okay, imo.

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/274856.php

by Impedimenta Fri Apr 04, 2014 9:24 am

fine. be that way. at least, I'll die happy not having caused harm to living beings, except the occasional chicken and fish.

by indophile Fri Apr 04, 2014 9:24 am

Well considering the study came from Austria, i.e., pseudo Germany where people eat a lot of red meat and cheese, and cakes and other high octane stuff..........
Helmut Kohl, a former Chancellor of Germany, authored a cooking book. One of the recipes in there calls for --- after butchering the pig (I guess he believed doing things from scratch) and extracting its stomach without damaging it, empty it with the right tools, stuff that stomach with the same animal's meat from its loins, throw in some spices paprika, aniset, and cheeses, sew up the three openings to the stomach with tendons from the same animal, and bake it in the oven turning occasionally, until medium brown.
Serves two. Smile

by southindian Fri Apr 04, 2014 9:25 am

indophile wrote:Pretty soon the beef, pork, and chicken industries here will start featuring the study TV commercials.

(In India it could be lamb, goat, chicken, eggs)

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/home/science/Vegetarians-are-less-healthy-and-have-a-lower-quality-of-life-than-meat-eaters-scientists-say/articleshow/33225827.cms?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=referral

Think about this, this hot today, cold tomorrow survey is feeding a journalist family. He's writing this to keep his kitchen active.

and then I remember somebody once said, "An apple a day, keeps the doctor away".

by ashdoc Fri Apr 04, 2014 11:52 am

vegetarianism robs people of killer instinct . india rarely invaded foreign lands ( except the chola invasions of south east asia and sikh maharajah ranjit singh's invasion of tibet ) because large number of people in india were vegetarians . on the other hand we got invaded regularly and lost most of the battles .

in order to embibe killer instinct into people , temples of kali mata should be established all over the country and every male hindu should be forced to sacrifice goats to kali mata every year .

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Fri Apr 04, 2014 12:01 pm

Impedimenta wrote:fine. be that way. at least, I'll die happy not having caused harm to living beings, except the occasional chicken and fish.

Wait...isn't this discrimination against Chicken and fish? You are not being secular towards the animals.

by MaxEntropy_Man Fri Apr 04, 2014 1:30 pm

Merlot Daruwala wrote:Bwahaha...all that self-denial wasted...

self denial? you think it is self denial that's at the root of vegetarianism? that may be so for other people, but i am sure you are well aware that there is a strong indian subculture of vegetarianism. these people are not vegetarian because it is cool to be one or that it is healthy to be one. their vegetarianism is culturally rooted. it is self denial only if you started life as a meat eater and gave it up at some point for health or ethical reasons, and would prefer to continue eating it if only it wasn't unhealthy and didn't have ethical problems associated with it. none of that applies to most indian vegetarians. however, they find it convenient to portray what is culturally intrinsic as an ethical choice.

by michelle2 Fri Apr 04, 2014 1:40 pm

ashdoc wrote:vegetarianism robs people of killer instinct . india rarely invaded foreign lands ( except the chola invasions of south east asia and sikh maharajah ranjit singh's invasion of tibet ) because large number of people in india were vegetarians . on the other hand we got invaded regularly and lost most of the battles .

in order to embibe killer instinct into people , temples of kali mata should be established all over the country and every male hindu should be forced to sacrifice goats to kali mata every year .

and pigs can fly.

by michelle2 Fri Apr 04, 2014 1:45 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Merlot Daruwala wrote:Bwahaha...all that self-denial wasted...

self denial? you think it is self denial that's at the root of vegetarianism? that may be so for other people, but i am sure you are well aware that there is a strong indian subculture of vegetarianism. these people are not vegetarian because it is cool to be one or that it is healthy to be one. their vegetarianism is culturally rooted. it is self denial only if you started life as a meat eater and gave it up at some point for health or ethical reasons, and would prefer to continue eating it if only it wasn't unhealthy and didn't have ethical problems associated with it. none of that applies to most indian vegetarians. however, they find it convenient to portray what is culturally intrinsic as an ethical choice.

nalla sonneenga! okay, "nandraaga."

by nevada Fri Apr 04, 2014 3:31 pm

indophile wrote:Well considering the study came from Austria, i.e., pseudo Germany where people eat a lot of red meat and cheese, and cakes and other high octane stuff..........
Helmut Kohl, a former Chancellor of Germany, authored a cooking book. One of the recipes in there calls for --- after butchering the pig (I guess he believed doing things from scratch) and extracting its stomach without damaging it, empty it with the right tools, stuff that stomach with the same animal's meat from its loins, throw in some spices paprika, aniset, and cheeses, sew up the three openings to the stomach with tendons from the same animal, and bake it in the oven turning occasionally, until medium brown.
Serves two.

A few years ago I was walking along with a friend and glanced into a chinese restaurant window. There was this large pig in the table, shiny and motionless. I then realized that it is a cooked pig ready for delivery to some eager customer. Till then, I had only seen whole pig roasting on TV - on Anthony Bourdain's "No reservations".

by indophile Fri Apr 04, 2014 3:37 pm

You never saw a decorated pig carcass with an apple in it's mouth and such, generally at professional conferences' banquets? The first time I saw the decoration I lost all interest in the food.

by indophile Fri Apr 04, 2014 3:51 pm

A relative of ours came to Iowa State Univ in Ames, IA back in the late 50's. His wife joined him a few months later and it was Thanksgiving time. Back in those days local families used to invite foreign students for dinner on Thanksgiving day. So my relative and his wife went. The wife is a pure vegetarian (to this day). So the host graciously tried to accommodate her. He stuck this spoon with a long handle up the Turkey's ass and drew out some stuffing since that qualified as vegetarian. Although there were yams and such, the tradition was that you must touch the Turkey some way on that day. Smile

by FluteHolder Fri Apr 04, 2014 3:57 pm

by nevada Fri Apr 04, 2014 4:15 pm

indophile wrote:You never saw a decorated pig carcass with an apple in it's mouth and such, generally at professional conferences' banquets? The first time I saw the decoration I lost all interest in the food.

Thankfully, never. I have seen baked whole fish a few times but that's about it.

by Propagandhi711 Fri Apr 04, 2014 4:52 pm

nevada wrote:
indophile wrote:Well considering the study came from Austria, i.e., pseudo Germany where people eat a lot of red meat and cheese, and cakes and other high octane stuff..........
Helmut Kohl, a former Chancellor of Germany, authored a cooking book. One of the recipes in there calls for --- after butchering the pig (I guess he believed doing things from scratch) and extracting its stomach without damaging it, empty it with the right tools, stuff that stomach with the same animal's meat from its loins, throw in some spices paprika, aniset, and cheeses, sew up the three openings to the stomach with tendons from the same animal, and bake it in the oven turning occasionally, until medium brown.
Serves two.
A few years ago I was walking along with a friend and glanced into a chinese restaurant window. There was this large pig in the table, shiny and motionless. I then realized that it is a cooked pig ready for delivery to some eager customer. Till then, I had only seen whole pig roasting on TV - on Anthony Bourdain's "No reservations".

that's a suckling pig, most delicious. had an awesome version of it in argentina

by MaxEntropy_Man Fri Apr 04, 2014 4:56 pm

michelle2 wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Merlot Daruwala wrote:Bwahaha...all that self-denial wasted...

self denial? you think it is self denial that's at the root of vegetarianism? that may be so for other people, but i am sure you are well aware that there is a strong indian subculture of vegetarianism. these people are not vegetarian because it is cool to be one or that it is healthy to be one. their vegetarianism is culturally rooted. it is self denial only if you started life as a meat eater and gave it up at some point for health or ethical reasons, and would prefer to continue eating it if only it wasn't unhealthy and didn't have ethical problems associated with it. none of that applies to most indian vegetarians. however, they find it convenient to portray what is culturally intrinsic as an ethical choice.
nalla sonneenga! okay, "nandraaga."

there was a phase in grad school when i ate a lot of meat, more out of convenience than anything else because it meant i didn't have to cook, and the university cafeteria had little vegetarian food. and i didn't cook because (a) i thought it was cumbersome and didn't have much time and (b) didn't know how to cook and always thought of it as some secretive art. i had a roommate who bought one of those outdoor grills and he used to fire it up on the weekends and make kheema burgers with a bunch of indian spices thrown in. we also went out on and off for steak dinners. i enjoyed that for a while. this went on for a few years and then i went home to india for a vacation. that's when i realized how much i had been missing home cooked food. i learned to cook with a vengeance from that point onwards and haven't looked back. so although a few years of my life were spent eating a significant amount of meat, in fact it's all i ate, i can't really say i miss it or that i am somehow depriving myself of the experience as merlot imagines. i was culturally a vegetarian, became a meat eater out of necessity and went back to eating mostly vegetarian food. neither am i denying myself the experience, nor am i passing judgment on people who choose to eat meat. i am not sure what all the fuss is about and why this is often a political debate.

by Maria S Sun Apr 06, 2014 7:55 am

There is apparently a delightful tamil movie "Saivam" (Vegetariansim)..to be released soon! thought about this thread..and posting the trailer.

by truthbetold Sun Apr 06, 2014 9:33 am

Impedimenta wrote:fine. be that way. at least, I'll die happy not having caused harm to living beings, except the occasional chicken and fish.

Yeah except plants, insects, invisible organisms and human beings( words hurt too).

by MaxEntropy_Man Sun Apr 06, 2014 9:57 am

truthbetold wrote:
Impedimenta wrote:fine. be that way. at least, I'll die happy not having caused harm to living beings, except the occasional chicken and fish.
Yeah except plants, insects, invisible organisms and human beings( words hurt too).

a central nervous system and a brain are required at the very least for the concept of pain to be even meaningful. plants have neither. it's also not clear what purpose is served by a plant feeling pain. for example physical pain informs animals of damage that can be caused if they don't remove themselves from the situation that is causing pain. plants by definition cannot move in the sense that animals can move.

by truthbetold Sun Apr 06, 2014 10:08 am

[size=32]harm[/size]
härm/
noun

1.
physical injury, esp. that which is deliberately inflicted.
"it's fine as long as no one is inflicting harm on anyone else"
synonyms: injury, hurt, pain, trauma; More
Harm is about what the perpetrator does.

As far as human beings and hurtful words are considered, your point about
central ...... backs my sentence above (even though I wrote that in a lighter vein.

by MaxEntropy_Man Sun Apr 06, 2014 10:12 am

it's obvious i intended to restrict my comments to plants.

by truthbetold Sun Apr 06, 2014 10:29 am

Max,

now that I have clarified the meaning of harm, and plucking fruit of a plant is deliberate, is harm or not?

Here is something you may enjoy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvUFdca5ACw
That is a link to a non movie song by Ghantasala , poem by Jandyala Pappaya sastry. It is about a flower making a plea to spare them from human harm.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jandhyala_Papayya_Sastry

by MaxEntropy_Man Sun Apr 06, 2014 10:36 am

i don't see how. as i said a plant does not have a central nervous system and moreover it can regenerate itself. in some ways human and animal consumption of fruits probably helps in transporting its seeds and propagating its genetic material.

by Guest Sun Apr 06, 2014 10:49 am

TBT, read from page 30 onwards for an excellent explanation on ahimsa.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/12991965/Value-of-Values

This is an awesome book, a must read for everyone! When I was buying some junk personality development books, my swamiji (no, not a baba, a highly educated sanyasi) gifted me this book and told me to read it. He said it's better than all the junk you are buying. It's a small book, but it's a gem!

Here's the paperback and some reviews:

http://www.amazon.com/Value-Values-Swami-Dayananda-Saraswati/dp/8190363670/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1396799280&sr=1-1&keywords=value+of+values

PS: For those who have no idea what spirituality is, but diss it anyway, pls read this book. This is what spirituality is.

by MaxEntropy_Man Sun Apr 06, 2014 10:59 am

Kinnera wrote:TBT, read from page 30 onwards for an excellent explanation on ahimsa.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/12991965/Value-of-Values

This is an awesome book, a must read for everyone! When I was buying some junk personality development books, my swamiji (no, not a baba, a highly educated sanyasi) gifted me this book and told me to read it. He said it's better than all the junk you are buying. It's a small book, but it's a gem!

Here's the paperback and some reviews:

http://www.amazon.com/Value-Values-Swami-Dayananda-Saraswati/dp/8190363670/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1396799280&sr=1-1&keywords=value+of+values

PS: For those who have no idea what spirituality is, but diss it anyway, pls read this book. This is what spirituality is.

this verbose sami says many of the things i've said above.

by Guest Sun Apr 06, 2014 11:06 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Kinnera wrote:TBT, read from page 30 onwards for an excellent explanation on ahimsa.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/12991965/Value-of-Values

This is an awesome book, a must read for everyone! When I was buying some junk personality development books, my swamiji (no, not a baba, a highly educated sanyasi) gifted me this book and told me to read it. He said it's better than all the junk you are buying. It's a small book, but it's a gem!

Here's the paperback and some reviews:

http://www.amazon.com/Value-Values-Swami-Dayananda-Saraswati/dp/8190363670/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1396799280&sr=1-1&keywords=value+of+values

PS: For those who have no idea what spirituality is, but diss it anyway, pls read this book. This is what spirituality is.

this verbose sami says many of the things i've said above.

Oh right, Swamiji. You are a wise man indeed! Read the rest of the book, esp, Amanitvam.

by Guest Sun Apr 06, 2014 11:26 am

btw, we had countless discussions about vegetarianism on the forums in the past. I quoted this book and made the same kind of points and more. Vee said the same later too. This is not the first time such arguments are made.

The values given in the book are what given in the Gita. And Krishna did say in the Gita that not everyone gets what is being said. Each person's level of understanding and imbibing is different, depending on one's samskaras and vasanas. He said just leave them alone. So yeah...

by truthbetold Sun Apr 06, 2014 11:45 am

I am assuming this dayand saraswati was also the founder of arya samaj. His work is highly respected. So i will read the book.

Having said that I am not sure how my comment on impy's comment will change. her comment and my response (even though originally made in lighter vein) stand on their own. Since max and others dispute the harm, i will try to explain my side.

by FluteHolder Sun Apr 06, 2014 11:55 am

Thanks for the link, I have seen his videos esp I liked the one where he explained about young kids/schooling...

by truthbetold Sun Apr 06, 2014 12:17 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:i don't see how. as i said a plant does not have a central nervous system and moreover it can regenerate itself. in some ways human and animal consumption of fruits probably helps in transporting its seeds and propagating its genetic material.

Human consumption of chicken also provides a self sustaining (and even growing) industry of regenerating chicken farm industry.

The plant is a living being. Its life is snuffed out for human consumption. A life that was existing yesterday is gone today for the benefit of human beings. That is harm.

One can find weird justifications to support ones point of view. I have no problem whether one chooses to eat leafy vegetables or chicken or beef. But to claim that those who eat beef are somehow causing more harm to other living beings than vegetarians is a false notion of moral superiority. The world around us show that nature's principles dictate that the sustenance of some living beings is dependent on consuming other living beings (harming) and survival is the most basic principle of nature.

One can argue that human beings do not have to consume beef to survive. I do not know if that is true. It is a debatable fact. In any case it can only considered debatable in 20th century as most of human history, survival required meat consumption. So whether you apply the principles of GITA or logic or laws of nature, meat consumption is no different than consuming vegetables.

It is a pseudo uppity thinking to claim moral superiority for vegetarianism. Eat what you want and get off your high horse of moral superiority.

by MaxEntropy_Man Sun Apr 06, 2014 1:58 pm

truthbetold wrote:

It is a pseudo uppity thinking to claim moral superiority for vegetarianism. Eat what you want and get off your high horse of moral superiority.

you should get on the horse of reading comprehension though. that's exactly what i wasn't claiming -- moral superiority. go over the thread again.

by Guest Sun Apr 06, 2014 2:54 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:i don't see how. as i said a plant does not have a central nervous system and moreover it can regenerate itself. in some ways human and animal consumption of fruits probably helps in transporting its seeds and propagating its genetic material.

Onions, garlic, carrots, radishes, etc. are unable to regenerate themselves. You have to pluck them out of the ground by their roots thereby killing the plant.

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