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What if Rajiv Gandhi hadn't unlocked the Babri Masjid in 1986?
by Rishi Sun Apr 13, 2014 8:21 am
In 1985, Prime Minister Rajiv Gandhi gave in to Muslim pressure in the Shah Bano affair. Overruling a secular court's decision that the repudiated wife Shah Bano was entitled to alimony from her ex-husband, he enacted a law abolishing the alimony provision in conformity with the Shari'a. Since India, unlike secular states, already had religion-based Civil Codes, this concession merely brought the minor matter of alimony under the purview of the prevailing arrangement. More importantly, it prevented riots.
Only months later, Gandhi restored the balance by giving the Hindus something as well: he ordered the locks on the Ram Janmabhoomi Babri Masjid in Ayodhya removed. Until then, a priest had been permitted to perform puja once a year for the idols installed there in 1949. Now, all Hindus were given access to what they consider as the birthplace of Rama, the prince posthumously deified as an incarnation of Vishnu.
Fundamentally, this decision didn't alter the Ayodhya equation. Architecturally, the building was and remained a mosque, while functionally, it had been and continued to be a Hindu temple. That is why in my opinion, not taking this decision wouldn't have changed the Ayodhya developments except in their timing. The different players, their strategies and goals, and their resolve to pursue these, all remained the same. The Babri Masjid Action Committee and the Vishva Hindu Parishad would have gone about their "business" just the same.
However, the VHP would have been forced to continue pushing the rather petty demand for removing the locks, rather than move on to the more ambitious and more mobilizing next step of planning the construction of a new temple. Most probably, the BJP would likewise have reaped smaller dividends from such a campaign. In 1989, it might not have jumped as high as 86 seats. Conversely, Congress might not have lost the North-Indian Muslim vote to the Janata Dal. In 1989, it could have remained just strong enough to cobble together a coalition rather than leave the initiative to the unwholesome and unstable Janata-BJP-Communist combine. So, at the level of party politics, Rajiv Gandhi's decision may have made a big difference.
On the other hand, the presence or absence of locks might have made little difference to the Kar Sevaks who brought the building down in 1992. Then again, with a Rajiv Gandhi government returning to power in 1989, there might have been no reason for this extreme move. The Hindus might by then have gotten their sacred site without a fight.
After all, in a situation where both Hindus and Muslims were laying claim to the site, Gandhi's decision in 1986 was important because it allowed for only one interpretation: he favoured the Hindu claim. This was logical, for the site has a sacred significance for Hindus as the putative birthplace of Rama, while it had no special status for Muslims. Historical documents confirm that Hindus continued to go on pilgrimage to the site all through the centuries of Muslim occupation, while no Muslim ever went on pilgrimage there.
Admittedly, a Muslim lobby had been formed which insisted on reoccupying this Hindu sacred site. However, the existing Congress culture notoriously knew how to deal with such problems: give the Muslim lobbyists some ministerial posts, some public largesse for their institutes or a raise in the Hajj subsidies, and they will come around. A small application of this approach was the annulment of Syed Shahabuddin's announced march on Ayodhya in 1988 in exchange for the governmental ban on Salman Rushdie's freshly-released book The Satanic Verses. A similar but bigger concession might have annulled the Muslim claim on the Ayodhya site. It would not have been the most principled policy, but it would have avoided a lot of communal blood-letting.
This pragmatic approach was thwarted midway. It is not often that intellectuals play a crucial role in politics, but this time they did. After the locks had been removed, India's Marxist intellectuals unchained all their devils in order to prevent the full restoration of the site as a Hindu pilgrimage centre. In particular, they started insisting that there had never been a Hindu temple at the site before a mosque had been imposed on it.
This was a strange claim to make, for two reasons. Firstly, it was untrue. Until then, all parties concerned had agreed that the mosque had been built in forcible replacement of a temple. What is nowadays rubbished as "the VHP claim" was in fact the consensus view. Thus, in court proceedings in the 1880s, the Muslim claimants and the British rulers agreed with the Hindu claimants on the historical fact of the temple demolition, but since it had happened centuries earlier, they decided that time had sanctioned the Muslim usurpation and nullified the Hindus' legal claim. Further, numerous documents and several archaeological excavations confirmed the history of the temple demolition (with the court-ordered excavations of spring 2003 removing the last possible doubts). The sudden denial of this history by a circle of Marxist historians was not based on any new evidence but purely on political compulsions. It seems that their long enjoyment of a hegemonic power position in academe had gone to their heads, so they thought they could get away with crude history falsification.
Secondly, the question of the site's history was beside the point. The decisive consideration for awarding the site to the Hindus, both for the Hindu campaigners themselves and for Rajiv Gandhi, was not the site's sacred status in the Middle Ages, but its sacredness for Hindus today. It is the Hindus of 1986 or indeed of 2004 who have been going on pilgrimage to Ayodhya, and they are as much entitled to find a Hindu atmosphere there, complete with Hindu architecture, as Muslims are entitled to find an Islamic atmosphere in Mecca. The VHP has been blamed for politicising history, but it was its opponents who complicated matters by bringing in history, and false history at that.
Nonetheless, the Marxist historians had their way. In their shrill manifestoes, these secular fundamentalists slandered the genuine historians who stood by the facts, and they denounced the Hindus' perfectly reasonable expectation that a Hindu sacred site be left in the exclusive care of the Hindus. They did this with such titanic vehemence that the pragmatists were thrown on the defensive.
Rajiv Gandhi didn't give up, though. In 1989, he allowed the Shilanyas ceremony, in which the first stone of the planned temple was put in place. In 1990, as opposition leader, he made Chandra Shekhar's minority government organize a scholars' debate on the history of the site, obviously on the assumption that this would confirm the Hindu claim. And so it did, for the anti-temple historians showed up empty-handed when they were asked to provide evidence for an alternative scenario to the temple demolition. In a normal course of events, i.e. without the interference of secularist shrieks and howls, this would have set the stage for the peaceful construction of a new temple in the 1990s, with some compensation for the Muslim community, and the conflict would have been forgotten by now. Instead, the sore has continued to fester. In 1991 Rajiv Gandhi was murdered, and his successors didn't have the good sense to continue his equitable and pragmatic Ayodhya policy.
http://koenraadelst.bharatvani.org/articles/ayodhya/unlock.html
Only months later, Gandhi restored the balance by giving the Hindus something as well: he ordered the locks on the Ram Janmabhoomi Babri Masjid in Ayodhya removed. Until then, a priest had been permitted to perform puja once a year for the idols installed there in 1949. Now, all Hindus were given access to what they consider as the birthplace of Rama, the prince posthumously deified as an incarnation of Vishnu.
Fundamentally, this decision didn't alter the Ayodhya equation. Architecturally, the building was and remained a mosque, while functionally, it had been and continued to be a Hindu temple. That is why in my opinion, not taking this decision wouldn't have changed the Ayodhya developments except in their timing. The different players, their strategies and goals, and their resolve to pursue these, all remained the same. The Babri Masjid Action Committee and the Vishva Hindu Parishad would have gone about their "business" just the same.
However, the VHP would have been forced to continue pushing the rather petty demand for removing the locks, rather than move on to the more ambitious and more mobilizing next step of planning the construction of a new temple. Most probably, the BJP would likewise have reaped smaller dividends from such a campaign. In 1989, it might not have jumped as high as 86 seats. Conversely, Congress might not have lost the North-Indian Muslim vote to the Janata Dal. In 1989, it could have remained just strong enough to cobble together a coalition rather than leave the initiative to the unwholesome and unstable Janata-BJP-Communist combine. So, at the level of party politics, Rajiv Gandhi's decision may have made a big difference.
On the other hand, the presence or absence of locks might have made little difference to the Kar Sevaks who brought the building down in 1992. Then again, with a Rajiv Gandhi government returning to power in 1989, there might have been no reason for this extreme move. The Hindus might by then have gotten their sacred site without a fight.
After all, in a situation where both Hindus and Muslims were laying claim to the site, Gandhi's decision in 1986 was important because it allowed for only one interpretation: he favoured the Hindu claim. This was logical, for the site has a sacred significance for Hindus as the putative birthplace of Rama, while it had no special status for Muslims. Historical documents confirm that Hindus continued to go on pilgrimage to the site all through the centuries of Muslim occupation, while no Muslim ever went on pilgrimage there.
Admittedly, a Muslim lobby had been formed which insisted on reoccupying this Hindu sacred site. However, the existing Congress culture notoriously knew how to deal with such problems: give the Muslim lobbyists some ministerial posts, some public largesse for their institutes or a raise in the Hajj subsidies, and they will come around. A small application of this approach was the annulment of Syed Shahabuddin's announced march on Ayodhya in 1988 in exchange for the governmental ban on Salman Rushdie's freshly-released book The Satanic Verses. A similar but bigger concession might have annulled the Muslim claim on the Ayodhya site. It would not have been the most principled policy, but it would have avoided a lot of communal blood-letting.
This pragmatic approach was thwarted midway. It is not often that intellectuals play a crucial role in politics, but this time they did. After the locks had been removed, India's Marxist intellectuals unchained all their devils in order to prevent the full restoration of the site as a Hindu pilgrimage centre. In particular, they started insisting that there had never been a Hindu temple at the site before a mosque had been imposed on it.
This was a strange claim to make, for two reasons. Firstly, it was untrue. Until then, all parties concerned had agreed that the mosque had been built in forcible replacement of a temple. What is nowadays rubbished as "the VHP claim" was in fact the consensus view. Thus, in court proceedings in the 1880s, the Muslim claimants and the British rulers agreed with the Hindu claimants on the historical fact of the temple demolition, but since it had happened centuries earlier, they decided that time had sanctioned the Muslim usurpation and nullified the Hindus' legal claim. Further, numerous documents and several archaeological excavations confirmed the history of the temple demolition (with the court-ordered excavations of spring 2003 removing the last possible doubts). The sudden denial of this history by a circle of Marxist historians was not based on any new evidence but purely on political compulsions. It seems that their long enjoyment of a hegemonic power position in academe had gone to their heads, so they thought they could get away with crude history falsification.
Secondly, the question of the site's history was beside the point. The decisive consideration for awarding the site to the Hindus, both for the Hindu campaigners themselves and for Rajiv Gandhi, was not the site's sacred status in the Middle Ages, but its sacredness for Hindus today. It is the Hindus of 1986 or indeed of 2004 who have been going on pilgrimage to Ayodhya, and they are as much entitled to find a Hindu atmosphere there, complete with Hindu architecture, as Muslims are entitled to find an Islamic atmosphere in Mecca. The VHP has been blamed for politicising history, but it was its opponents who complicated matters by bringing in history, and false history at that.
Nonetheless, the Marxist historians had their way. In their shrill manifestoes, these secular fundamentalists slandered the genuine historians who stood by the facts, and they denounced the Hindus' perfectly reasonable expectation that a Hindu sacred site be left in the exclusive care of the Hindus. They did this with such titanic vehemence that the pragmatists were thrown on the defensive.
Rajiv Gandhi didn't give up, though. In 1989, he allowed the Shilanyas ceremony, in which the first stone of the planned temple was put in place. In 1990, as opposition leader, he made Chandra Shekhar's minority government organize a scholars' debate on the history of the site, obviously on the assumption that this would confirm the Hindu claim. And so it did, for the anti-temple historians showed up empty-handed when they were asked to provide evidence for an alternative scenario to the temple demolition. In a normal course of events, i.e. without the interference of secularist shrieks and howls, this would have set the stage for the peaceful construction of a new temple in the 1990s, with some compensation for the Muslim community, and the conflict would have been forgotten by now. Instead, the sore has continued to fester. In 1991 Rajiv Gandhi was murdered, and his successors didn't have the good sense to continue his equitable and pragmatic Ayodhya policy.
http://koenraadelst.bharatvani.org/articles/ayodhya/unlock.html
Rishi- Posts : 5129
Join date : 2011-09-02
Re: What if Rajiv Gandhi hadn't unlocked the Babri Masjid in 1986?
by truthbetold Sun Apr 13, 2014 8:53 am
Rishi,
Political leaders think they can manage the tiger they are riding. Examples are plenty.
Indira Gandhi - Bhidranwale - the monster that ate after his death.
Rajiv Gandhi - Above example and IPKF in Srilanka.
RSS - Bari - Majid demolition
Pakistan - Islamic extremism that is sucking life out of that nation
USA - Iraq invasion
Sonia - AP bifurcation (already KCR repaid her)
In most cases, tiger get its revenge.
Political leaders think they can manage the tiger they are riding. Examples are plenty.
Indira Gandhi - Bhidranwale - the monster that ate after his death.
Rajiv Gandhi - Above example and IPKF in Srilanka.
RSS - Bari - Majid demolition
Pakistan - Islamic extremism that is sucking life out of that nation
USA - Iraq invasion
Sonia - AP bifurcation (already KCR repaid her)
In most cases, tiger get its revenge.
truthbetold- Posts : 6799
Join date : 2011-06-07
Re: What if Rajiv Gandhi hadn't unlocked the Babri Masjid in 1986?
by Rishi Sun Apr 13, 2014 8:57 am
truthbetold wrote:Rishi,
Political leaders think they can manage the tiger they are riding. Examples are plenty.
Indira Gandhi - Bhidranwale - the monster that ate after his death.
Rajiv Gandhi - Above example and IPKF in Srilanka.
RSS - Bari - Majid demolition
Pakistan - Islamic extremism that is sucking life out of that nation
USA - Iraq invasion
Sonia - AP bifurcation (already KCR repaid her)
In most cases, tiger get its revenge.
>>>TBT
What you say makes sense.
I guess all these leaders need advisors to give them some historical perspective.
Right now, what do you think is the tiger?
Rishi- Posts : 5129
Join date : 2011-09-02
Re: What if Rajiv Gandhi hadn't unlocked the Babri Masjid in 1986?
by truthbetold Sun Apr 13, 2014 9:14 am
Rishi,
If you want me to be honest, it is indian people's bet on Modi.
In most of the above examples it is one leader or a small group that take the risk for some personal gain or narrow group advantage.
But in 2014, Indian people are betting on Modi on three counts: He will provide good governance, he will push economic growth, and he will curb his anti minority instincts. Personally I am convinced, he will fail on the third one if he stays for two terms. Indians can only hope that he will succeed on the first two so that Indian can take the blow from a religious conflagration.
Succeeding in first two items is a task of himalayan proportions with so many internal and external hurdles. India in the past 25 years took advantage of low lying fruit to make progress. They got away with with fundamental structural weaknesses. But now world is different. Internally Indian economy and political system needs more discipline and institutions. Externally competition from upcoming nations in several sectors (ex: Philippines and Eastern Europe) and huge challenges from china and advanced nations in lucrative developing technologies(ex: solar power).
If modi takes India forward economically, he may escape from the tiger. I only give him a 50/50 chance.
If you want me to be honest, it is indian people's bet on Modi.
In most of the above examples it is one leader or a small group that take the risk for some personal gain or narrow group advantage.
But in 2014, Indian people are betting on Modi on three counts: He will provide good governance, he will push economic growth, and he will curb his anti minority instincts. Personally I am convinced, he will fail on the third one if he stays for two terms. Indians can only hope that he will succeed on the first two so that Indian can take the blow from a religious conflagration.
Succeeding in first two items is a task of himalayan proportions with so many internal and external hurdles. India in the past 25 years took advantage of low lying fruit to make progress. They got away with with fundamental structural weaknesses. But now world is different. Internally Indian economy and political system needs more discipline and institutions. Externally competition from upcoming nations in several sectors (ex: Philippines and Eastern Europe) and huge challenges from china and advanced nations in lucrative developing technologies(ex: solar power).
If modi takes India forward economically, he may escape from the tiger. I only give him a 50/50 chance.
truthbetold- Posts : 6799
Join date : 2011-06-07
Re: What if Rajiv Gandhi hadn't unlocked the Babri Masjid in 1986?
by rawemotions Sun Apr 13, 2014 9:40 am
The most important admission in this article is given below and it proves overwhelmingly , the reason behind Muslim involvement in majority of the riots in India, and perhaps even the world over. The reason is that even for a silly issue, to force the government, the Political Islamist's would use Ordinary Muslims (many of them willingly) and Non-Muslims as Cannon Fodder to achieve their aims.
Whenever they do this, the Majority of Muslims remain silent, even if the position taken by the Political Islamist's, limit their own freedom, enforce unreasonable limits on society, denies basic rights enshrined in Indian constitution, perpetuates identity oriented segregationist politics, and forces an Islamic Supremacist viewpoint on all Muslims of India.
More importantly, it prevented riots.
Whenever they do this, the Majority of Muslims remain silent, even if the position taken by the Political Islamist's, limit their own freedom, enforce unreasonable limits on society, denies basic rights enshrined in Indian constitution, perpetuates identity oriented segregationist politics, and forces an Islamic Supremacist viewpoint on all Muslims of India.
More importantly, it prevented riots.
rawemotions- Posts : 1690
Join date : 2011-05-03
Re: What if Rajiv Gandhi hadn't unlocked the Babri Masjid in 1986?
by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Sun Apr 13, 2014 10:08 am
If Modi wins, it will put fear in muslims and force them to behave (Fear is the only weapon that can keep Muslims in check).
If Congress (iSlam) wins, muslims will get even more emboldened, and the concept of appeasement of muslims would have been proved beyond any doubt - much to the disaster of Hindus and India.
Whatever juice is left in the Indian Psyche, it will be washed away in "corruption"
If Congress (iSlam) wins, muslims will get even more emboldened, and the concept of appeasement of muslims would have been proved beyond any doubt - much to the disaster of Hindus and India.
Whatever juice is left in the Indian Psyche, it will be washed away in "corruption"
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Age : 110
Re: What if Rajiv Gandhi hadn't unlocked the Babri Masjid in 1986?
by Propagandhi711 Sun Apr 13, 2014 1:46 pm
truthbetold wrote:Rishi,
Political leaders think they can manage the tiger they are riding. Examples are plenty.
Indira Gandhi - Bhidranwale - the monster that ate after his death.
Rajiv Gandhi - Above example and IPKF in Srilanka.
RSS - Bari - Majid demolition
Pakistan - Islamic extremism that is sucking life out of that nation
USA - Iraq invasion
Sonia - AP bifurcation (already KCR repaid her)
In most cases, tiger get its revenge.
is your definition of riding the tiger any challenges the leaders ended up losing to? for each of the examples your provided, history is replete with hundred more that showed what a capable and determined leader can do with "tigers" and how to ride them
Propagandhi711- Posts : 6941
Join date : 2011-04-29
Re: What if Rajiv Gandhi hadn't unlocked the Babri Masjid in 1986?
by truthbetold Sun Apr 13, 2014 5:31 pm
Prop,
good question.
I am sure you understood tiger represents risk.
you are right. Not all risk results in failure. In fact without risk taking we cannot progress.
But there are situations where multiple factors are involved including several dynamic factors (like wind direction in weather forecast). The rate of success in these cases goes down quickly compared to ordinary risks. The chance of failure increases with temporal limitations, failure to do proper planning(ex: Iraq), poor communications ( ex: ap bifurcation), improper course corrections (ex: Afghanistan) and finally people management (ex: bhindranwale and kcr).
Most of the above examples are from political arena and involve the most difficult prediction and management factor, peoples thoughts. Tiger wins more often than not in these situations.
good question.
I am sure you understood tiger represents risk.
you are right. Not all risk results in failure. In fact without risk taking we cannot progress.
But there are situations where multiple factors are involved including several dynamic factors (like wind direction in weather forecast). The rate of success in these cases goes down quickly compared to ordinary risks. The chance of failure increases with temporal limitations, failure to do proper planning(ex: Iraq), poor communications ( ex: ap bifurcation), improper course corrections (ex: Afghanistan) and finally people management (ex: bhindranwale and kcr).
Most of the above examples are from political arena and involve the most difficult prediction and management factor, peoples thoughts. Tiger wins more often than not in these situations.
truthbetold- Posts : 6799
Join date : 2011-06-07
Re: What if Rajiv Gandhi hadn't unlocked the Babri Masjid in 1986?
by nevada Mon Apr 14, 2014 12:32 am
truthbetold wrote:Rishi,
Political leaders think they can manage the tiger they are riding. Examples are plenty.
Indira Gandhi - Bhidranwale - the monster that ate after his death.
Rajiv Gandhi - Above example and IPKF in Srilanka.
RSS - Bari - Majid demolition
Pakistan - Islamic extremism that is sucking life out of that nation
USA - Iraq invasion
Sonia - AP bifurcation (already KCR repaid her)
In most cases, tiger get its revenge.
US - Afghanistan can be added to the list. The tradition of eager fighters all over the world going to one place to fight a "holy war" developed rather too strongly during the US supported Afghan-Soviet conflict. And Saddam at one point was backed by the US too.
Also, Allied powers - Israel is a good candidate for addition to the list as well.
nevada- Posts : 1831
Join date : 2011-04-29
Re: What if Rajiv Gandhi hadn't unlocked the Babri Masjid in 1986?
by truthbetold Mon Apr 14, 2014 4:04 am
Nevada
Agree.
Agree.
truthbetold- Posts : 6799
Join date : 2011-06-07
Re: What if Rajiv Gandhi hadn't unlocked the Babri Masjid in 1986?
by confuzzled dude Mon Apr 14, 2014 9:57 am
truthbetold wrote:Nevada
Agree.
Is everything alright with you TBT? When I opine similar views as Neveda I'm ridiculed as biased by you & American hater by your cohort.
confuzzled dude- Posts : 10205
Join date : 2011-05-08
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