Garibi Hatao...... Hmm...

by Vakavaka Pakapaka Thu May 29, 2014 3:20 pm

I am sure CONmen, DKheads, Laloo, MullahYaam, Sikular SuCh Scholars, etc., will be excited (temporarily) to read this news item and rake dirt at chaddis while nangi dancing.

http://www.deccanchronicle.com/140530/nation-current-affairs/article/hrd-minisiter-smriti-irani-wants-ancient-texts-education

New slogans will replace old ones like "Garibi Hatao":

Isavaasyam idam sarvam

Tat Twam Asi

Poornam idam.......

LOL.

by Vakavaka Pakapaka Thu May 29, 2014 3:45 pm

When I was a teen, in my village, we used to get together and try and converse in Sanskrit. We used to go to the temple for pradOsha pooja and participate in reciting mantrapushpam, purushasooktam, sreesooktam, etc. Those were the days!

by Idéfix Thu May 29, 2014 9:54 pm

Indian textbooks on math and science do not cover ancient Indian contributions to those fields. If they correct that that will be a good thing. If they start teaching pseudo science that will be a bad thing. We will see how it goes.

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Fri May 30, 2014 12:47 am

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:I am sure CONmen, DKheads, Laloo, MullahYaam, Sikular SuCh Scholars, etc., will be excited (temporarily) to read this news item and rake dirt at chaddis while nangi dancing.

http://www.deccanchronicle.com/140530/nation-current-affairs/article/hrd-minisiter-smriti-irani-wants-ancient-texts-education

New slogans will replace old ones like "Garibi Hatao":

Isavaasyam idam sarvam

Tat Twam Asi

Poornam idam.......

LOL.

Well I told you so........

History books must be rewritten presenting all the F A C T S. No sugarcoating and explicit atrocities of mogul emperors and their attempt to destroy hindu temples, culture, religion should be explicitly introduced in the textbooks.

It WILL BE changed.

by MaxEntropy_Man Fri May 30, 2014 8:08 am

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:
Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:I am sure CONmen, DKheads, Laloo, MullahYaam, Sikular SuCh Scholars, etc., will be excited (temporarily) to read this news item and rake dirt at chaddis while nangi dancing.

http://www.deccanchronicle.com/140530/nation-current-affairs/article/hrd-minisiter-smriti-irani-wants-ancient-texts-education

New slogans will replace old ones like "Garibi Hatao":

Isavaasyam idam sarvam

Tat Twam Asi

Poornam idam.......

LOL.

Well I told you so........

History books must be rewritten presenting all the F A C T S. No sugarcoating and explicit atrocities of mogul emperors and their attempt to destroy hindu temples, culture, religion should be explicitly introduced in the textbooks.

It WILL BE changed.

since you are now a northindian saamiyarji, you probably don't know or remember that tamil textbooks have always included selections from the kambarAmAyaNam, thEvAram, divya prabhandam, iratchaNya yAthiragam (verse translation of pilgrim's progress) and sIrAppurANam, the life of the prophet mohammed in tamil verse.

the TN state board syllabus though has an anemic science curriculum, was always strong and eclectic in its reading selections for english and tamil. i hope the center keeps its grubby hands off state board education matters as it always has.

and i do hope the CBSE textbooks give a true account of the achievements of ancient indian mathematicians like madhava of sangamagrAmA like infinite series, and not stop with showing clever arithmetic tricks that indians invented.

by Hellsangel Fri May 30, 2014 8:13 am

Il Professor-ai, do you use the word northindian as an insult? What does it mean?

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Fri May 30, 2014 10:08 am

Hellsangel wrote:Il Professor-ai, do you use the word northindian as an insult? What does it mean?

He means it in a deragatory way that I am from Tiruvottriyur (mostly non Brahmins) in North Madras while he is from Thiruvanmiyur (where significant TamBrahmis live) in South Madras.

These Southerners - I tell ya...

by MaxEntropy_Man Fri May 30, 2014 10:20 am

btw, i have always thought that the CBSE system has a superior science and mathematics curriculum compared to the TN state board. and recently they have started including when appropriate, historical notes about indian mathematics. the CBSE textbooks are available for download. i have been using them as supplemental material for my kids.

see this chapter on the class eleven math textbook which discusses the binomial theorem:

http://www.ncert.nic.in/ncerts/textbook/textbook.htm?kemh1=8-16

The ancient Indian mathematicians knew about the coefficients in the
expansions of (x + y)^n, 0 ≤ n ≤ 7. The arrangement of these coefficients was in the form of a diagram called Meru-Prastara, provided by Pingla in his book Chhanda shastra (200B.C.). This triangular arrangement is also found in the work of Chinese mathematician Chu-shi-kie in 1303. The term binomial coefficients was first introduced by the German mathematician, Michael Stipel (1486-1567) in approximately 1544. Bombelli (1572) also gave the coefficients in the expansion of (a + b)^n, for n = 1,2 ...,7 and Oughtred (1631) gave them for n = 1, 2,..., 10. The arithmetic triangle, popularly known as Pascal’s triangle and similar to the Meru-Prastara of Pingla was constructed by the French mathematician Blaise Pascal (1623-1662) in 1665.

The present form of the binomial theorem for integral values of n appeared in Trate du triange arithmetic, written by Pascal and published posthumously in 1665.

IMO the CBSE math and science textbooks are very thoughtfully and carefully written. i can't see it being improved much by the efforts of this half-baked irani woman. i hope she doesn't screw it up.

by smArtha Fri May 30, 2014 10:21 am

Idéfix wrote:Indian textbooks on math and science do not cover ancient Indian contributions to those fields. If they correct that that will be a good thing. If they start teaching pseudo science that will be a bad thing. We will see how it goes.

How about history - social, political, economic, religious, philosophical & cultural facets of it? There is disproportionately more coverage about Babar, Akbar, Shahjahan and Aurangazeb - the entire Mughal dynasty than many other great dynasties that ruled prior and may be even longer.

Akbar also grabs more text for his 'Din E Ilahi' even though its spiritual & philosophical basis is way superficial than that of Yoga, Vedanta, Advaita, Visishtadvaita, Dvaita and even other lesser wide spread 'dArsanas' viz. Lokayata, Nyaya, Sankhya, Vaiseshika and Mimamsa etc. Looked at in the context of the multitude of religious and spiritual traditions and philosophies that India produced, 'Din-E-Ilahi' should be a foot note and nothing more.

Next in coverage is Christianity & Buddhism - every major event of Christ and Buddha's life is known by high school phase. We are taught the Biblical ten commandments and the Buddhist four noble paths. Not only that we also read a couple of pages about Nagarjuna in the context of Buddhism. However, similar treatment is absent for the Sapta Rishis, Sankara, Vidyaranya, Ramanuja, Madhava, Neelakanta, Vacaspati Mishra, Madhusudhana, Patanjali .... No high school goer knows the four mahavakyas of Vedanta or eight limbs of yOga or the nine types of Bhakti and many other tenets from the multitude of dArsanas and their SAkhas.

We can go on and on.. but the summary is disproportionately small coverage for a 5000+ year old civilization and its contributions in various fields - not just science and math. And this is the result of myopic view of trying to 'secularize' via 'equalization'. If one positive statement about Hindus/Hinduism is mentioned we need to balance (or more than balance) it with one each from Islam and Christianity and its famous adherents.

by Vakavaka Pakapaka Fri May 30, 2014 10:23 am

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:
Hellsangel wrote:Il Professor-ai, do you use the word northindian as an insult? What does it mean?

He means it in a deragatory way that I am from Tiruvottriyur (mostly non Brahmins) in North Madras while he is from Thiruvanmiyur (where significant TamBrahmis live) in South Madras.

These Southerners - I tell ya...

Stop insulting him by tying him down to "Southerner TamBrams". He is a highly sikular and extremely brilliant rationalistic Tamil scientist who doesn't even want to touch a chaddi.

by MaxEntropy_Man Fri May 30, 2014 10:35 am

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:
Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:
Hellsangel wrote:Il Professor-ai, do you use the word northindian as an insult? What does it mean?

He means it in a deragatory way that I am from Tiruvottriyur (mostly non Brahmins) in North Madras while he is from Thiruvanmiyur (where significant TamBrahmis live) in South Madras.

These Southerners - I tell ya...
Stop insulting him by tying him down to "Southerner TamBrams". He is a highly sikular and extremely brilliant rationalistic Tamil scientist who doesn't even want to touch a chaddi.

neech, garbi hato, dkheads, sikular, extremely brilliant!

by Abdul Fri May 30, 2014 11:08 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:
Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:
Hellsangel wrote:Il Professor-ai, do you use the word northindian as an insult? What does it mean?

He means it in a deragatory way that I am from Tiruvottriyur (mostly non Brahmins) in North Madras while he is from Thiruvanmiyur (where significant TamBrahmis live) in South Madras.

These Southerners - I tell ya...
Stop insulting him by tying him down to "Southerner TamBrams". He is a highly sikular and extremely brilliant rationalistic Tamil scientist who doesn't even want to touch a chaddi.

neech, garbi hato, dkheads, sikular, extremely brilliant!

hatao, not hato ('hato' means 'move' or 'get out of the way') . also, garibi not garbi.

by Idéfix Fri May 30, 2014 1:09 pm

smArtha wrote:
Idéfix wrote:Indian textbooks on math and science do not cover ancient Indian contributions to those fields. If they correct that that will be a good thing. If they start teaching pseudo science that will be a bad thing. We will see how it goes.

How about history - social, political, economic, religious, philosophical & cultural facets of it? There is disproportionately more coverage about Babar, Akbar, Shahjahan and Aurangazeb - the entire Mughal dynasty than many other great dynasties that ruled prior and may be even longer.

Akbar also grabs more text for his 'Din E Ilahi' even though its spiritual & philosophical basis is way superficial than that of Yoga, Vedanta, Advaita, Visishtadvaita, Dvaita and even other lesser wide spread 'dArsanas' viz. Lokayata, Nyaya, Sankhya, Vaiseshika and Mimamsa etc. Looked at in the context of the multitude of religious and spiritual traditions and philosophies that India produced, 'Din-E-Ilahi' should be a foot note and nothing more.

Next in coverage is Christianity & Buddhism - every major event of Christ and Buddha's life is known by high school phase. We are taught the Biblical ten commandments and the Buddhist four noble paths. Not only that we also read a couple of pages about Nagarjuna in the context of Buddhism. However, similar treatment is absent for the Sapta Rishis, Sankara, Vidyaranya, Ramanuja, Madhava, Neelakanta, Vacaspati Mishra, Madhusudhana, Patanjali .... No high school goer knows the four mahavakyas of Vedanta or eight limbs of yOga or the nine types of Bhakti and many other tenets from the multitude of dArsanas and their SAkhas.

We can go on and on.. but the summary is disproportionately small coverage for a 5000+ year old civilization and its contributions in various fields - not just science and math. And this is the result of myopic view of trying to 'secularize' via 'equalization'. If one positive statement about Hindus/Hinduism is mentioned we need to balance (or more than balance) it with one each from Islam and Christianity and its famous adherents.

There are several points to be made here, in no particular order.

The purpose of public education is not to educate kids about religion. Religious education is obtained in veda pathasalas and madarasas. Public education should certainly teach students about history, including the social, economic, cultural, and political aspects of it. I can speak for my own high school history textbooks. They were focused mostly on political history. They covered Ashoka as much as they covered Akbar, and they spent a decent amount of time on the Kakatiyas, Guptas, Harshavardhana, Vijayanagara, etc. as they did on the Qutbshahis and the Mughals. There was practically no coverage of socioeconomic aspects. The first real coverage of socioeconomic issues began with the colonial era. All historical content until the colonial era is sketchy, focusing on dates and names, with a few things like "he planted trees on roadsides" thrown in for comic relief.

I don't think the key philosophical / theological aspects of Islam, Christianity, Buddhism, and Sikhism are covered in textbooks. Not many Indian students can tell you what the theological differences between a Catholic and a Protestant are, or what the theological differences between a Sunni and a Shia are. Same with Hinduism, although we are actually taught a little about the Shaivism, Vaishnavism, and the various Bhakti traditions. There are a couple of pages devoted to din-i-ilahi, yes. Din-i-ilahi is not interesting because of its philosophical depth or insightful revelation. It is interesting because it is a rather unique attempt to synthesize and subsume disparate religious traditions in the interest of political stability and unity. The history of medieval India was the story of the clash of two civilizations: Indic and Islamic. That clash produced much violence as well as several attempts at seeking common ground. The textbooks gloss over the former and mention the latter.

Have more to say but have to run -- may be more later.

by confuzzled dude Fri May 30, 2014 1:34 pm

All this puranas & history BS aside, how about putting efforts in changing teaching methodolgy to be more practical and move away from rote learining style.

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Fri May 30, 2014 2:14 pm

confuzzled dude wrote:All this puranas & history BS aside, how about putting efforts in changing teaching methodolgy to be more practical and move away from rote learining style.

That is already happening at the elementary school level. Education is a slow process. It takes decades to implement changes. a new breed of teachers have to be trained from their early school days. So in another 15 to 20 years, things will change.

Despite the TREMENDOUS growth in higher education in China, Korea and SE, the graduates coming out of those countries are only marginally better than Desis when it comes to originality and innovation and people skills.

BTW, this has nothing much to do with BJP or Modi. Puranas and history are NOT - repeat NOT BS.

Modi talks to the Chinku premier about 14th century Huen Tsang visit to village and that in itself opens the door for a great personal equation. If that is not history what is?

by confuzzled dude Fri May 30, 2014 2:25 pm

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:
confuzzled dude wrote:All this puranas & history BS aside, how about putting efforts in changing teaching methodolgy to be more practical and move away from rote learining style.

That is already happening at the elementary school level. Education is a slow process. It takes decades to implement changes. a new breed of teachers have to be trained from their early school days. So in another 15 to 20 years, things will change. .

It is, where, in international schools?

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:[
Despite the TREMENDOUS growth in higher education in China, Korea and SE, the graduates coming out of those countries are only marginally better than Desis when it comes to originality and innovation and people skills.

BTW, this has nothing much to do with BJP or Modi. Puranas and history are NOT - repeat NOT BS.

Modi talks to the Chinku premier about 14th century Huen Tsang visit to village and that in itself opens the door for a great personal equation. If that is not history what is?

Bad example (who knows Chinese Premier must have been laughing his a$$ off), that is not gonna help an average student. I think existing curriculum already consists of required levels of history and puranas.

by smArtha Fri May 30, 2014 6:07 pm

Idéfix wrote:
The purpose of public education is not to educate kids about religion. Religious education is obtained in veda pathasalas and madarasas. Public education should certainly teach students about history, including the social, economic, cultural, and political aspects of it. I can speak for my own high school history textbooks. They were focused mostly on political history. They covered Ashoka as much as they covered Akbar, and they spent a decent amount of time on the Kakatiyas, Guptas, Harshavardhana, Vijayanagara, etc. as they did on the Qutbshahis and the Mughals. There was practically no coverage of socioeconomic aspects. The first real coverage of socioeconomic issues began with the colonial era. All historical content until the colonial era is sketchy, focusing on dates and names, with a few things like "he planted trees on roadsides" thrown in for comic relief.

I don't think the key philosophical / theological aspects of Islam, Christianity, Buddhism, and Sikhism are covered in textbooks. Not many Indian students can tell you what the theological differences between a Catholic and a Protestant are, or what the theological differences between a Sunni and a Shia are. Same with Hinduism, although we are actually taught a little about the Shaivism, Vaishnavism, and the various Bhakti traditions. There are a couple of pages devoted to din-i-ilahi, yes. Din-i-ilahi is not interesting because of its philosophical depth or insightful revelation. It is interesting because it is a rather unique attempt to synthesize and subsume disparate religious traditions in the interest of political stability and unity. The history of medieval India was the story of the clash of two civilizations: Indic and Islamic. That clash produced much violence as well as several attempts at seeking common ground. The textbooks gloss over the former and mention the latter.

Have more to say but have to run -- may be more later.

For this debate, I'm not saying what they should teach as that can be a separate thread. I'm just comparing the relative coverage (depth/breadth) be it the history of rulers, philosophers, thinkers or religious figures. If any, purely from the indigenous angle, Indian texts should have had more coverage of Shankaracharya's life (or that of Patanjali or other famous Rishis/Philosophers) over that of Christ or Prophet or Moses.

The simplest test is to take a sufficient sample of today's high school students and ask them 5 simple questions each on the life of Christ, Prophet Md, Buddha and Shankara and the odds are (surprisingly even though Shankara is more recent than everyone on that list) that they know nothing about Shankara. And many may not have heard of him too. They may know enough about Rama and Krishna not because of the text books but from the elders and socio-cultural affairs.

And if we review vernacular literature of the 17th, 18th and even early 19th centuries, the knowledge of Shankara and his philosophy was so prevalent even among works of fiction. It is only when the education switched to the British and 'Secular' models did it result in an almost complete erasure of the well established and discussed Indian philosophies and their proponents.

I'm not saying, again for this thread, that the religious aspects of these philosophies be emphasized. They have educational value even if we play down the God/Divine/Transcendental parts of them. If such esoteric subjects are not be taught then that rule should apply equally to those of Socrates, Aristotle, Plato, Marx, Russell and Akbar.

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