An intelligent Advaitin responds to one of my blogs slamming Advaita

by Guest Thu Aug 21, 2014 11:44 am

http://www.advaitin.net/Subrahmanian/StatusRoleofScriptureAdvaita.pdf

by Guest Thu Aug 21, 2014 11:47 am

Vakavaka and Seva should find the arguments of this intelligent Advaitin to be of great interest to them.

by smArtha Thu Aug 21, 2014 11:55 am

Rashmun wrote:http://www.advaitin.net/Subrahmanian/StatusRoleofScriptureAdvaita.pdf

Sure. But where is your intelligent response to that one?

by Guest Thu Aug 21, 2014 11:56 am

smArtha wrote:
Rashmun wrote:http://www.advaitin.net/Subrahmanian/StatusRoleofScriptureAdvaita.pdf

Sure. But where is your intelligent response to that one?

I haven't yet gotten around to drafting a response to Subrahmanian yet. I may do so in the future.

by smArtha Thu Aug 21, 2014 12:41 pm

So, you didn't get time to respond to V Subrahmanian since 2007-09 time frame while you had all the time to cut-paste-copy all and sundry blogs or articles from all over the web to perpetuate your anti-Advaita and anti-Shankara theories/arguments?!!

by Guest Thu Aug 21, 2014 1:10 pm

smArtha wrote:So, you didn't get time to respond to V Subrahmanian since 2007-09 time frame while you had all the time to cut-paste-copy all and sundry blogs or articles from all over the web to perpetuate your anti-Advaita and anti-Shankara theories/arguments?!!

I didn't feel motivated enough. Drafting a critical response to his long write up would have been like biting and eating a large sour apple. But I am glad I was able to initiate some kind of debate on Advaita.

--
The Dvaita Vedantin Vyasatirtha has written a major critique on Advaita Vedanta. In response to this the Advaita Vedantin Madhusudan Saraswati has penned a detailed critique of Vyasatirtha's views on Advaita ( in the course of which Madhusudan goes on to also direct personal attacks on Vyasatirtha). No Dvaitin has bothered to refute Madhusudan Saraswati since Dvaitins believe he has not adequately countered Vyasatirtha, and that Vyasatirtha's fundamental objections to Advaita continue to hold good to this day.

by Guest Thu Aug 21, 2014 2:32 pm

Rashmun wrote:http://www.advaitin.net/Subrahmanian/StatusRoleofScriptureAdvaita.pdf

In his attempt to refute the objections raised against Advaita by me, the intelligent Advaitin takes recourse to the so called Dream Argument ( among other arguments). A good description of the Dream Argument may be found here:

http://creative.sulekha.com/nyaya-vs-upanisads-the-evidence-of-dreams-and-illusions_325398_blog

by smArtha Thu Aug 21, 2014 2:41 pm

Rashmun wrote:
Rashmun wrote:http://www.advaitin.net/Subrahmanian/StatusRoleofScriptureAdvaita.pdf

In his attempt to refute the objections raised against Advaita by me, the intelligent Advaitin takes recourse to the so called Dream Argument ( among other arguments). A good description of the Dream Argument may be found here:

http://creative.sulekha.com/nyaya-vs-upanisads-the-evidence-of-dreams-and-illusions_325398_blog

I understand the Dream argument and don't need 'special' interpretations. Answer this, if you are lost in a dream and while still in it.. would you know it is a Dream or not? Or do you realize it was a Dream after you are Awake?

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Thu Aug 21, 2014 2:48 pm

smArtha wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
Rashmun wrote:http://www.advaitin.net/Subrahmanian/StatusRoleofScriptureAdvaita.pdf

In his attempt to refute the objections raised against Advaita by me, the intelligent Advaitin takes recourse to the so called Dream Argument ( among other arguments). A good description of the Dream Argument may be found here:

http://creative.sulekha.com/nyaya-vs-upanisads-the-evidence-of-dreams-and-illusions_325398_blog

I understand the Dream argument and don't need 'special' interpretations. Answer this, if you are lost in a dream and while still in it.. would you know it is a Dream or not? Or do you realize it was a Dream after you are Awake?

Please leave him alone. He is ecstatic that someone praised him today, and like the attention he is getting. He is the equivalent of the attention seeking bimbo at any street corner.

by Vakavaka Pakapaka Thu Aug 21, 2014 3:05 pm

Rashmun wrote:Vakavaka and Seva should find the arguments of this intelligent Advaitin to be of great interest to them.

Subrahmaniam knows Advaita. You can learn from him.

I wasn't saying anything different. The individual and the seeker I was referring to is the one in bondage (that Subrahmaniam refers to). While in it, duality is real for him. To pullout or to visualize universality, individualism has to end. However, individualism can't be ended by the individual's own effort (since, when the effort is made, he becomes individualistic). Therefore, the "external" agency (the mother that Sankara describes in those verses you posted or a guru) is there to guide.

All seekers of advaita are still in the world of dvaita. Even an advaitin, when he thinks he is "interacting" with the world, is living in dvaita.

May be, you should ask Subrahmaniam to explain the difference between Sankara's Maya and illusion. Hopefully, that will diminish your ignorance :-).

by Guest Thu Aug 21, 2014 3:12 pm

smArtha wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
Rashmun wrote:http://www.advaitin.net/Subrahmanian/StatusRoleofScriptureAdvaita.pdf

In his attempt to refute the objections raised against Advaita by me, the intelligent Advaitin takes recourse to the so called Dream Argument ( among other arguments). A good description of the Dream Argument may be found here:

http://creative.sulekha.com/nyaya-vs-upanisads-the-evidence-of-dreams-and-illusions_325398_blog

I understand the Dream argument and don't need 'special' interpretations. Answer this, if you are lost in a dream and while still in it.. would you know it is a Dream or not? Or do you realize it was a Dream after you are Awake?

I had written a detailed blog ( or maybe two blogs) answering your questions and also other questions you are likely to ask in response to my answer to your questions. These are actually not my answers but the answers given by the Nyaya-Vaisesika and Mimansa philosophers both of who go about refuting this Dream Argument. Unfortunately I am not able to find the blogs since they had been written on Sulekha and the change to the new format on the Sulekha site probably resulted in loss of some of the blogs. I may write up a fresh blog on this topic.

In matters like the Dream Argument and also the Mystic Trance and other such topics my method is to let the ancients argue among themselves. I will pick sides, of course , based on who is talking sense and who is talking nonsense but I will be presenting the views of the ancients in these matters which I agree with. I find this gives greater authority to what I am saying--when I claim to only uphold the view of a section of ancient Indian philosophers (like the Nyaya-Vaisesikas or Mimansakas or Charvakas or Dvaitins and so on ) with whom I agree with because they are representing rationalism, and science orientation. It could also be that philosopher X is representing rationalism and science orientation on one topic while his rival philosopher Y is representing rationalism and science orientation on a second topic. If this happens I will side with X on the first topic and with Y on the second.

I claim that my method has some kind of a precedent. The great 9th century hindu philosopher Vachaspati Mishra has written standard commentaries on every classical system of Indian philosophy. But when writing on Nyaya he writes like a Nyayayika and when on the Vedanta as a Vedantin and so on. Hence he has been called sarva tantra swatantra ( free from any bookish/textual dogma) by his colleagues and later philosophers.

by smArtha Thu Aug 21, 2014 3:49 pm

>> sarva tantra swatantra ( free from any bookish/textual dogma)

is that the meaning of the 'sarva tantra swatantra' phrase?

Also, how did you conclude that Vachaspati Mishra was the first or only one referred by the 'sarva tantra swatantra' title?

by Guest Thu Aug 21, 2014 4:01 pm

smArtha wrote:>> sarva tantra swatantra ( free from any bookish/textual dogma)

is that the meaning of the 'sarva tantra swatantra' phrase?

Also, how did you conclude that Vachaspati Mishra was the first or only one referred by the 'sarva tantra swatantra' title?

It may not be the literal meaning but that is the meaning of the phrase as per my understanding. Since the literal meaning "free/freedom from all books/belief systems" does not make sense. After all he was writing standard commentaries on fundamental texts of Indian philosophy like the Brahma sutra, Nyaya sutra, Sankhya Karika, etc.

I have been a student of Indian philosophy and I have never heard of any other Indian philosopher being referred to by this phrase. In fact I was repeatedly told by my teachers that Vachaspati Mishra was unique.
There is of course the Sarva Darsana Samgraha of Madhavacharya in which the same approach is followed, but this text is not considered of the same quality as the works of Vachaspati Mishra since each philosophical system in Indian philosophy is sought to be covered in a single chapter of the book and hence the in depth analysis provided by Vachaspati Mishra in his books is not present in this book. However it is of course a useful text particularly since it is one of the few sources of information about the Charvaka school of philosophy.

by smArtha Thu Aug 21, 2014 5:32 pm

Rashmun wrote:
It may not be the literal meaning but that is the meaning of the phrase as per my understanding. Since the literal meaning "free/freedom from all books/belief systems" does not make sense. After all he was writing standard commentaries on fundamental texts of Indian philosophy like the Brahma sutra, Nyaya sutra, Sankhya Karika, etc.

I have been a student of Indian philosophy and I have never heard of any other Indian philosopher being referred to by this phrase.

This is the Guru Vandanam (salutations) offered at the sringEri peetham and passed down the parampara. Look at the underlined usage. In the Indian Spiritual traditions, Sankara, Vidyaranya, Abhinava Gupta, Vedanta Desika and many more enlightened Gurus and yOgis were referred to by that title. I'll leave the exercise of discovering the meaning of the phrase to you. Being a self-confessed student of Indian Philosophies it should be an interesting and useful exercise.

श्रीमत्परमहंस-परिव्राजकाचार्यवर्य-पदवाक्यप्रमाणपारावारपारीण-यमनियमासनप्राणायामप्रत्याहारधारणाध्यानसमाध्यष्टाङ्गयोगानुष्ठाननिष्ठ-तपश्चक्रवर्ती-अनाद्यविच्छिन्नश्रीशङ्कराचार्यगुरुपरंपराप्राप्त-षड्‍दर्शनस्थापनाचार्य-व्याख्यानसिंहासनाधीश्वर-सकलनिगमागमसारहृदय-सांख्यत्रयप्रतिपादक-वैदिकमार्गप्रवर्तक-सर्वतन्त्रस्वतन्त्र-आदिराजधानी-विद्यानगरमहाराजधानी-कर्णाटकसिंहासनप्रतिष्ठापनाचार्य-श्रीमद्राजाधिराजगुरु-भूमण्डलाचार्य-ऋष्यशृङ्गपुरवराधीश्वर-तुङ्गभद्रातीरवासी-श्रीमद्विद्याशङ्करपादपद्माराधक-श्रीमज्जगद्गुरु-श्रीमदभिनवविद्यातीर्थमहास्वामिगुरुकरकमलसञ्जात-श्रीमज्जगद्गुरु-श्रीभारतीतीर्थमहास्वामिनां चरणारविन्दयोः साष्टाङ्गप्रणामान् समर्पयामः ॥

by Guest Thu Aug 21, 2014 5:48 pm

smArtha wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
It may not be the literal meaning but that is the meaning of the phrase as per my understanding. Since the literal meaning "free/freedom from all books/belief systems" does not make sense. After all he was writing standard commentaries on fundamental texts of Indian philosophy like the Brahma sutra, Nyaya sutra, Sankhya Karika, etc.

I have been a student of Indian philosophy and I have never heard of any other Indian philosopher being referred to by this phrase.

This is the Guru Vandanam (salutations) offered at the sringEri peetham and passed down the parampara. Look at the underlined usage. In the Indian Spiritual traditions, Sankara, Vidyaranya, Abhinava Gupta, Vedanta Desika and many more enlightened Gurus and yOgis were referred to by that title. I'll leave the exercise of discovering the meaning of the phrase to you. Being a self-confessed student of Indian Philosophies it should be an interesting and useful exercise.

श्रीमत्परमहंस-परिव्राजकाचार्यवर्य-पदवाक्यप्रमाणपारावारपारीण-यमनियमासनप्राणायामप्रत्याहारधारणाध्यानसमाध्यष्टाङ्गयोगानुष्ठाननिष्ठ-तपश्चक्रवर्ती-अनाद्यविच्छिन्नश्रीशङ्कराचार्यगुरुपरंपराप्राप्त-षड्‍दर्शनस्थापनाचार्य-व्याख्यानसिंहासनाधीश्वर-सकलनिगमागमसारहृदय-सांख्यत्रयप्रतिपादक-वैदिकमार्गप्रवर्तक-सर्वतन्त्रस्वतन्त्र-आदिराजधानी-विद्यानगरमहाराजधानी-कर्णाटकसिंहासनप्रतिष्ठापनाचार्य-श्रीमद्राजाधिराजगुरु-भूमण्डलाचार्य-ऋष्यशृङ्गपुरवराधीश्वर-तुङ्गभद्रातीरवासी-श्रीमद्विद्याशङ्करपादपद्माराधक-श्रीमज्जगद्गुरु-श्रीमदभिनवविद्यातीर्थमहास्वामिगुरुकरकमलसञ्जात-श्रीमज्जगद्गुरु-श्रीभारतीतीर्थमहास्वामिनां चरणारविन्दयोः साष्टाङ्गप्रणामान् समर्पयामः ॥

Does it make any sense to refer to dedicated Vedantins as Sarva tantra swatantra? I think not. Even if the Sringeri matha is using this phrase for dedicated Vedantins, I do not believe it is a phrase universally used by all indian philosophers for these people which is in fact the case when it comes to Vachaspati Mishra.

by Guest Thu Aug 21, 2014 5:52 pm

Sarva = all
Tantra = texts; system of philosophy; can also be a reference to Tantrism
Swatantra = free; freedom

When Vachaspati Mishra is called sarva tantra swatantra it means he is someone free from bookish dogma.

by Guest Thu Aug 21, 2014 5:56 pm

On second thoughts I suppose you can call dedicated Vedantins sarva tantra swatantra if you assume that the only reality is Brahman which is pure consciousness devoid of any attributes. If you assume this then everything else is ultimately illusory or unreal or false including the Vedas and all books and philosophical systems. This was my original objection to which the intelligent Advaitin had responded in detail.

by Guest Thu Aug 21, 2014 6:15 pm

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tantra

by Guest Thu Aug 21, 2014 6:20 pm

Kinnera wrote:http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tantra

One word may have multiple meanings.

by Guest Thu Aug 21, 2014 8:41 pm

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:
Rashmun wrote:Vakavaka and Seva should find the arguments of this intelligent Advaitin to be of great interest to them.
Subrahmaniam knows Advaita. You can learn from him.

I wasn't saying anything different. The individual and the seeker I was referring to is the one in bondage (that Subrahmaniam refers to). While in it, duality is real for him. To pullout or to visualize universality, individualism has to end. However, individualism can't be ended by the individual's own effort (since, when the effort is made, he becomes individualistic). Therefore, the "external" agency (the mother that Sankara describes in those verses you posted or a guru) is there to guide.

All seekers of advaita are still in the world of dvaita. Even an advaitin, when he thinks he is "interacting" with the world, is living in dvaita.

May be, you should ask Subrahmaniam to explain the difference between Sankara's Maya and illusion. Hopefully, that will diminish your ignorance :-).

Thanks for the explanation from the point of view of an Advaitin. Also, I recall you had once written a blog on the Purusha Sukta. Could you please repost it ?

by smArtha Fri Aug 22, 2014 3:42 pm

Rashmun wrote:Sarva = all
Tantra = texts; system of philosophy; can also be a reference to Tantrism
Swatantra = free; freedom

When Vachaspati Mishra is called sarva tantra swatantra it means he is someone free from bookish dogma.

Did you ponder on Swa+Tantra?

by Guest Fri Aug 22, 2014 7:53 pm

smArtha wrote:
Rashmun wrote:Sarva = all
Tantra = texts; system of philosophy; can also be a reference to Tantrism
Swatantra = free; freedom

When Vachaspati Mishra is called sarva tantra swatantra it means he is someone free from bookish dogma.

Did you ponder on Swa+Tantra?

When the people you mention write on Vedanta they write as Vedantins. When they write on Mimansa, Sankhya, Nyaya-Vaisesika, etc. they continue to write as Vedantins. For this reason I refuse to call them sarva tantra swatantra. The meaning of the phrase in the extract below is essentially the same as the one I gave i.e. free from all bookish dogma ( and hence capable of original and independent thinking).

----
Vedanta Desikan rose to the status of an "Acharya" by the age of 27. Swami Desikan was conferred the title of Sarva Tantra Swatantra (one with the capacity for independent thinking and originality in any field), by Ranganayaki thaayar Herself, and Swamy was adorned with the title Vedantacharya by the Lord of Sri Rangam Sri Ranganatha, Himself.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vedanta_Desika

by Motor_Mouth Sat Aug 23, 2014 10:55 am

smArtha wrote:So, you didn't get time to respond to V Subrahmanian since 2007-09 time frame while you had all the time to cut-paste-copy all and sundry blogs or articles from all over the web to perpetuate your anti-Advaita and anti-Shankara theories/arguments?!!

Douchemun was busy excavating UP soil looking for Akbar's foreskin just so he could wear it on his index finger as ring. He settled with someone else's and that explains his renewed interest in his blog.

by Guest Sat Aug 23, 2014 11:40 am

Motor_Mouth wrote:
smArtha wrote:So, you didn't get time to respond to V Subrahmanian since 2007-09 time frame while you had all the time to cut-paste-copy all and sundry blogs or articles from all over the web to perpetuate your anti-Advaita and anti-Shankara theories/arguments?!!

Douchemun was busy excavating UP soil looking for Akbar's foreskin just so he could wear it on his index finger as ring. He settled with someone else's and that explains his renewed interest in his blog.

Welcome back Some Profile.

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