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In expansive Pakistan, Christians struggle to find space for cemeteries

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Post by confuzzled dude Sat Oct 18, 2014 9:57 am

In this tiny village where most homes don’t have windows and meals are cooked over fire pits, Christians are used to feeling like second-class citizens.

Christians say they earn less than $2 a day working in the sugarcane fields. They must shop at the sparsely stocked Christian-run rice and vegetable store. They are not allowed to draw water from wells tapped for Muslim neighbors. Now, in what many consider to be a final indignity, they and other Pakistani Christians are struggling to bury their dead.
“There is discrimination, and that is very much clear and obvious to all of us who live in this country,” said Nizar Masih, 65, a farmer who, like many Pakistani Christians, has a surname that refers to the Messiah.

Christians in Pakistan have been targets of what human rights activists call an unprecedented wave of violence against religious minorities, including Shiites, Ahmadis, Sikhs and Hindus. Thousands of members of religious minority groups have been killed over the past five years. But the Christians’ dwindling burial space is an example of a less dramatic but more persistent battle they say takes place behind the bloody headlines: a daily struggle for what might seem to be basic rights.
Last month, the Christians thought they had found a solution: A local Muslim landowner gave them use of a two-acre plot. But when about 50 Christian villagers began grading the site on Sept. 2, they were quickly met by 500 angry Muslim neighbors.

The Muslims approached “eyeball-to-eyeball,” said villager Waris Masih, 32, and accused them of disturbing ancient Islamic grave sites.

“The Christians tried to dishonor our faith and bring harm to our graveyard,” said Muhammad Khalil, 45, a Muslim farmer.

Wasif Iqbal,whose family owns the land, insists there are no known graves on the site. Even so, by the next morning, 53 Christians had been charged with blasphemy, a crime punishable by death in Pakistan. Eight villagers, including a 12-year-old boy, were jailed while the others remained free on bond. The charges were dropped a week later, but the Christian villagers are now back to cramming bodies into the existing cemetery.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/in-expansive-pakistan-christians-cannot-find-space-to-bury-their-dead/2014/10/17/1de012e2-547d-11e4-892e-602188e70e9c_story.html
-> Looks like the stupid western press finally opened their eyes, next time that senile McCain cries for his friend Pakistan hope someone shows him this article.

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Post by Maria S Sat Oct 18, 2014 10:47 am

Interesting Mr. CD.

This is a tiny village, but, wonder how the Christian Cemeteries in general operate in Pakistan. In most cities and towns in India..Churches own and maintain the cemeteries, so we buy plots/space. 

In Chennai..it is becoming a problem, because of the large population and land is hard to buy these days..like New Orleans, may be they will have just build "storied graves" above ground! Cremation is also becoming more common these days. I prefer that too:) If  the soul lives, or returns, assume it can!  

*I don't know..may be I see all this differently..was reading this article by Reza Aslan:


http://nymag.com/scienceofus/2014/10/reza-aslan-on-what-the-new-atheists-get-wrong.html

I agree with this part, where he says:


"I think the principle fallacy of not just to the so-called New Atheists, but I think of a lot of critics of religion, is that they believe that people derive their values, their morals, from their religion. That, as every scholar of religion in the world will tell you, is false.
People don’t derive their values from their religion — they bring their values to their religion. Which is why religions like Judaism, Hinduism, Christianity, [and] Islam, are experienced in such profound, wide diversity. Two individuals can look at the exact same text and come away with radically different interpretations. Those interpretations have nothing to do with the text, which is, after all, just words on a page, and everything to do with the cultural, nationalistic, ethnic, political prejudices and preconceived notions that the individual brings to the text. That is the most basic, logical idea that you could possibly imagine, and yet for some reason, it seems to get lost in the incredibly simplistic rhetoric around religion and the lived experience of religion."


_______


To me, revenge goes in cycles (often using/misusing religion as the "front") based on centuries of disputes and hostilities. 
*There are rare exceptions like ISIS- where the overused/misused term "terrorist" seems quite apt - their methods are really horrific..and something has to be done to stop their brutality (Christian or Muslim Countries joining forces)..as complicated as it may be.

But in general, most Muslims/Groups just don't pick "Christian countries" to plan extensively and fly airplanes to cause devastation..if they did, Christian countries like Iceland, Bolivia, Monaco or even the Vatican would have suffered attacks. Everyone knows, it's about countries perceived as "geo-political and economic powers"..esp. one superpower..which generates passions for it's political and military support (occupation in some cases).  On the personal side, Pres. Bush was among the most "religious Christian" Presidents who openly kissed and hands with some powerful Muslims-Rulers. Are the Muslim rulers any less religious or brutal in their own regimes. *Christians can't even carry a Bible publicly in Saudi Arabia- there is no religious freedom..unlike Iraq, Jordan, Syria..where Christians can freely worship. 

It's always interesting to see these personal-international dynamics cloaked in religion.
Maria S
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Post by Kris Sat Oct 18, 2014 11:06 am

Maria S wrote:
http://nymag.com/scienceofus/2014/10/reza-aslan-on-what-the-new-atheists-get-wrong.html

I agree with this part, where he says:


"I think the principle fallacy of not just to the so-called New Atheists, but I think of a lot of critics of religion, is that they believe that people derive their values, their morals, from their religion. That, as every scholar of religion in the world will tell you, is false.
>>>Maria,

I am a bit pressed for time and haven't read the article, but the above caught my eye. I think I have seen an interview with Aslan before. I agree in general with the above, but would suggest that this is  a two-way street with the influence going both ways i.e. culture to religion, religion to culture. The former helps to moderate views. In those quarters where there is an accommodation for science and reason, the results are self-evident. The West has reinvented itself  pretty much. It has gone from intolerance and witch hunting to openness and pluralism within maybe 10 generations. The enemy to this is fundamentalism, which makes it a one-way street (religion to culture). The clash of civilizations is therefore between modernity and fundamentalism.

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Post by Maria S Sat Oct 18, 2014 11:13 am

Kris,

In very general terms it may be a two-way street, but there are so many other factors which influence the exchanges. 

It is hard to compare the West and East in such simplistic terms.

I will agree that it's a complex topic, and will generate many different views.
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Post by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Sat Oct 18, 2014 11:17 am

Here is my new theory.

Christianity and Islam were born in the desert.. Also, there were so few trees and firewood to cremate them. So when people died it was easy to bury them.

Now that gas and electricity can be used to do the job.

Did Maria ji know the new rule passed by the Association of churches (or christians) in Madras that Christian cemetaries that are older than 200 years can be REUSED to bury the dead? The Kilpauk Christian cemetary is almost full and was the reason for this decision - some 5 years ago.

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Post by confuzzled dude Sat Oct 18, 2014 11:45 am

Maria S wrote:
But in general, most Muslims/Groups just don't pick "Christian countries" to plan extensively and fly airplanes to cause devastation..if they did, Christian countries like Iceland, Bolivia, Monaco or even the Vatican would have suffered attacks. Everyone knows, it's about countries perceived as "geo-political and economic powers"..esp. one superpower..which generates passions for it's political and military support (occupation in some cases).  On the personal side, Pres. Bush was among the most "religious Christian" Presidents who openly kissed and hands with some powerful Muslims-Rulers. Are the Muslim rulers any less religious or brutal in their own regimes. *Christians can't even carry a Bible publicly in Saudi Arabia- there is no religious freedom..unlike Iraq, Jordan, Syria..where Christians can freely worship. 

It's always interesting to see these personal-international dynamics cloaked in religion.
I think it all boils down to the modus operandi of government/authority of a country. If they are impartial then the country would be fine which is why I express my doubts about current Indian govt. If you take a look at Iraq, there were nearly 2 million Christians in Iraq before the war and in 10 years time they're down to what, a couple of hundred thousands?!

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Post by Maria S Sat Oct 18, 2014 11:50 am

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:Here is my new theory.

Christianity and Islam were born in the desert.. Also, there were so few trees and firewood to cremate them.  So when people died it was easy to bury them.

Now that gas and electricity can be used to do the job.

Did Maria ji know the new rule passed by the Association of churches (or christians) in Madras that Christian cemetaries that are older than 200 years can be REUSED to bury the dead? The Kilpauk Christian cemetary is almost full and was the reason for this decision - some 5 years ago.


Only you can come up with such amazing theories:) 

I know U..some of my beloved ones are sharing a lot of space below ground..with others- some strangers, because their families had no "presold plots" and requested as close as it gets!

Ennappa..why this ji..ji? Endearing aside..Maria is sweet enough! Nalla velai..ennai, akka, amma, thangai aunty, paati endru azhaikavillai:)

Speaking of Amma..was surprised like anyone else who may have watched the live TV coverage of Jayalalitha's return to her/our naadu! I thought there may be a few people, some paid to come..but, it was literally thousands and thousands of people lined up for miles from Meenambakkam airport to her house in Boaz gardens..in pouring rain!
I have never seen anything like it..money can do only so much..even if it's a drizzle, people probably run for shelter..making up some excuse!

And people who were shy  (or did not want to be drenched) to show up..are on social media..writing poetry comparing her to Goddesses, Kannagi..you name it Tamil historical figures!  People can laugh at her and her supporters...there is no doubt she is some force to reckon with!  
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Post by Maria S Sat Oct 18, 2014 11:54 am

confuzzled dude wrote:

I think it all boils down to the modus operandi of government/authority of a country. If they are impartial then the country would be fine which is why I express my doubts about current Indian govt. If you take a look at Iraq, there were nearly 2 million Christians in Iraq before the war and in 10 years time they're down to what, a couple of hundred thousands?!


There is no doubt that Iraqi Christians have really taken the brunt, suffered a lot- sustained losses, and most were displaced-have left. 

I am mostly keeping up with regional, esp. TN politics these days!
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Post by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Sat Oct 18, 2014 12:15 pm

Maria S wrote:
And people who were shy  (or did not want to be drenched) to show up..are on social media..writing poetry comparing her to Goddesses, Kannagi..you name it Tamil historical figures!  People can laugh at her and her supporters...there is no doubt she is some force to reckon with!  

As I mentioned way in the beginning, TN voters overwhelmigly have been desensitized at this 66 cr corruption conviction - by 800; 66,000 crore cases. Besides there has been no allegation/charges from her 1999-2004 or 2012 - governments. I said she would come out even more popular and by her dignified non-comments (Unlike Laloo/Kani/MK/Raja) over the last 2 weeks she has enhanced her image considerably. If the conviction is overturned by the Karnataka high court in about 1 yr time, expect Amma to win all 234 seats in 2017.

In the meantime Kani/MK/Raja will be rotting in jail.

In political Corruption it is all relative.

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