facsinating rite

Beatrix Kiddo wrote:lol @ "thanks for teaching me Bhojpuri gaalis".... share some?

and "Yo Bullet baba"... what's that?

Beatrix Kiddo wrote:You are not Rajput? what is Rajput? I thought Kshatriya from rajasthan (originally) - aan baan shaan (hukum) types. By your last name, shouldn't you be that?

tingu wrote:

Beatrix Kiddo wrote:You are not Rajput? what is Rajput? I thought Kshatriya from rajasthan (originally) - aan baan shaan (hukum) types. By your last name, shouldn't you be that?

no. i am rajput. my wife isn't. mine was an out-of-caste marriage but in our "caste" marriages "community has more importance." we are both sonars or "swankars" and of the same "family."

swapna wrote:What was most fascinating: the first photograph.

tingu wrote:

tingu wrote:

Beatrix Kiddo wrote:You are not Rajput? what is Rajput? I thought Kshatriya from rajasthan (originally) - aan baan shaan (hukum) types. By your last name, shouldn't you be that?

no. i am rajput. my wife isn't. mine was an out-of-caste marriage but in our "caste" marriages "community has more importance." we are both sonars or "swankars" and of the same "family."

likewise, almost all my bhabhis have surnames like "saraf," "verma" and "poddar." my mother was a poddar. my brother's wife is a saraf from nazibabad. they are all "svarnkars" (goldsmiths). svarnkars are not necessarily rajputs and in some cases are vaishyas. but, yes, my sons are rajputs (originally from bharatpur, rajasthan)!

Beatrix Kiddo wrote:lol, so after a full research, your sons were right.

I know pretty much all the last names you mentioned, as school or family friends. I remember my mom also calling some people as sunar community (instead of kshatriya or vaishya).

tingu wrote:my wife's family is vaishya but my mother-in-law is brahmin but svarnkar! so community overcomes caste among us. fascinating stuff.

hamaar bitwa ka biyah svarnkar samaj me hi hoba chahi! (that's the best i can do in my broken bhojpuri.)

smArtha wrote:

tingu wrote:my wife's family is vaishya but my mother-in-law is brahmin but svarnkar! so community overcomes caste among us. fascinating stuff.

hamaar bitwa ka biyah svarnkar samaj me hi hoba chahi! (that's the best i can do in my broken bhojpuri.)

Traditionally, Brahmins were never svarnakars by occupation in any part of India. Swarnakars along with Carpenter, Blacksmith, Metal and Stone artisans (artisan and craftsmen skills needed for Temples & Deities) were referred to as Vishwakarmas (they trace their roots to the Celestial Architect & Craftsman Vishwakarma). In the 4-fold Varna system they come under Vaishya group. For that reason and also because of their very frequent engagement with the Temples, these communities were expected to maintain certain niyamas viz. vegetarian diet, sacred thread, daily religious rituals for the Celestial Viswakarma and other deities of their craft etc. 

Much later (may be during the Mughal or British times) the community had, quoting their Temple association and Brahmin style niyamas, adopted the Vishwabrahmin title to place themselves higher among the many other artisan and craftsmen classes. Within this group the swarnakars were ranked higher followed by carpenters and then others. Till as recently as 70s and may be early 80s they would refer to themselves as Brahmins in any unsuspecting gathering. Ever since the onset of BC and OBC reservations in different parts of the country, the Brahmin tag became useless and even a liability and many of them reverted back to the native caste names tied to their ancestral crafts.

michelle2 wrote:i'm glad i've been at sulekha and suCH all these years; i wouldn't otherwise have learnt as much as i have about northindians, and their castes, communities, culture, and value system(s). i learnt relatively little about their inner workings and family lives during my years at an iit, where about 70% of my class-mates were northindians; we were busy with our academic work, and furthermore, the northindians were transformed by their new environment.

my professors here have been Our Darlin', The Chutiya, and Bittu Singh Fobby.

tingu wrote:

smArtha wrote:

tingu wrote:my wife's family is vaishya but my mother-in-law is brahmin but svarnkar! so community overcomes caste among us. fascinating stuff.

hamaar bitwa ka biyah svarnkar samaj me hi hoba chahi! (that's the best i can do in my broken bhojpuri.)

Traditionally, Brahmins were never svarnakars by occupation in any part of India. Swarnakars along with Carpenter, Blacksmith, Metal and Stone artisans (artisan and craftsmen skills needed for Temples & Deities) were referred to as Vishwakarmas (they trace their roots to the Celestial Architect & Craftsman Vishwakarma). In the 4-fold Varna system they come under Vaishya group. For that reason and also because of their very frequent engagement with the Temples, these communities were expected to maintain certain niyamas viz. vegetarian diet, sacred thread, daily religious rituals for the Celestial Viswakarma and other deities of their craft etc. 

Much later (may be during the Mughal or British times) the community had, quoting their Temple association and Brahmin style niyamas, adopted the Vishwabrahmin title to place themselves higher among the many other artisan and craftsmen classes. Within this group the swarnakars were ranked higher followed by carpenters and then others. Till as recently as 70s and may be early 80s they would refer to themselves as Brahmins in any unsuspecting gathering. Ever since the onset of BC and OBC reservations in different parts of the country, the Brahmin tag became useless and even a liability and many of them reverted back to the native caste names tied to their ancestral crafts.

you are, in strictly my personal opinion, 100% right.

tingu wrote:hamaar bitwa ka biyah svarnkar samaj me hi hoba chahi! (that's the best i can do in my broken bhojpuri.)

tingu wrote:

tingu wrote:

smArtha wrote:

tingu wrote:my wife's family is vaishya but my mother-in-law is brahmin but svarnkar! so community overcomes caste among us. fascinating stuff.

hamaar bitwa ka biyah svarnkar samaj me hi hoba chahi! (that's the best i can do in my broken bhojpuri.)

Traditionally, Brahmins were never svarnakars by occupation in any part of India. Swarnakars along with Carpenter, Blacksmith, Metal and Stone artisans (artisan and craftsmen skills needed for Temples & Deities) were referred to as Vishwakarmas (they trace their roots to the Celestial Architect & Craftsman Vishwakarma). In the 4-fold Varna system they come under Vaishya group. For that reason and also because of their very frequent engagement with the Temples, these communities were expected to maintain certain niyamas viz. vegetarian diet, sacred thread, daily religious rituals for the Celestial Viswakarma and other deities of their craft etc. 

Much later (may be during the Mughal or British times) the community had, quoting their Temple association and Brahmin style niyamas, adopted the Vishwabrahmin title to place themselves higher among the many other artisan and craftsmen classes. Within this group the swarnakars were ranked higher followed by carpenters and then others. Till as recently as 70s and may be early 80s they would refer to themselves as Brahmins in any unsuspecting gathering. Ever since the onset of BC and OBC reservations in different parts of the country, the Brahmin tag became useless and even a liability and many of them reverted back to the native caste names tied to their ancestral crafts.

you are, in strictly my personal opinion, 100% right.

i agree with you about the "brahmin' aspect insofar as brahmins were never goldsmiths. but there is more to it. we "self identify" ourselves as rajput with disregard for the british classification (the british did concede ground eventually) -- as the saying goes, "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." i had forgotten about the little bit research i had done on this subject long ago while typing upthread. we are "mair sonars." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mair_caste

i do not discount the fact that there might be vaishyas and brahmins in this community but that might have happened for the reasons you state!

yes, vegetarian diet is practised by us. unusual for kshatriyas but not unusual for rajasthan, haryana and UP where even vaishyas are vegetarian (leave alone brahmins). sacred thread - no. vishwakarma worship - no. arya samaji - rampant.

Beatrix Kiddo wrote:man, all this caste business is so confusing. no wonder people of the past generations went so anal trying to keep it alive. I mean, who cares and all.

swapna wrote:

Beatrix Kiddo wrote:man, all this caste business is so confusing. no wonder people of the past generations went so anal trying to keep it alive. I mean, who cares and all.

tingu does.

Beatrix Kiddo wrote:

swapna wrote:

Beatrix Kiddo wrote:man, all this caste business is so confusing. no wonder people of the past generations went so anal trying to keep it alive. I mean, who cares and all.

tingu does.

Not really. It seems to be purely recreational for him. He just researches it every few years for the fun of it, and then forgets it! For the extent of his marriage he thought he and his wife were from different castes, so ya.

Beatrix Kiddo wrote:

swapna wrote:

Beatrix Kiddo wrote:man, all this caste business is so confusing. no wonder people of the past generations went so anal trying to keep it alive. I mean, who cares and all.

tingu does.

Not really. It seems to be purely recreational for him. He just researches it every few years for the fun of it, and then forgets it! For the extent of his marriage he thought he and his wife were from different castes, so ya.

michelle2 wrote:

Beatrix Kiddo wrote:

swapna wrote:

Beatrix Kiddo wrote:man, all this caste business is so confusing. no wonder people of the past generations went so anal trying to keep it alive. I mean, who cares and all.

tingu does.

Not really. It seems to be purely recreational for him. He just researches it every few years for the fun of it, and then forgets it! For the extent of his marriage he thought he and his wife were from different castes, so ya.

according to you, "all this caste business is so confusing," and "people of the past generations went so anal trying to keep it alive"; then you say, "who cares and all." chutiya-idiot is one of the people of the past generations who apparently "cares and all," and is going anal to keep caste alive in 2014.