Re: What should France do?

by MaxEntropy_Man Wed Jan 07, 2015 10:37 pm

didn't realize these poor guys are some leftover relics from the flower child, hippie era:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/08/opinion/the-attack-on-charlie-hebdo-and-the-tradition-of-parisian-wit.html

by bw Wed Jan 07, 2015 10:38 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
confuzzled dude wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
confuzzled dude wrote:
Bang on. Journalists are giving these attention mongers unnecessary importance with these cartoons on prophet. Best bet is to ignore.

not sure ignoring them is the right answer. they have to be desensitized. that's the answer. such a low tolerance to religious offense is no fault but their own.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jan/07/charlie-hebdo-killers-must-not-silence-us

This is partly why I don’t like the fashionable terms Islamophobia or Islamofascism. It should be perfectly possible to criticise any culture that limits women without being accused of hating every Muslim. All fundamentalist religions (including those rooted in Judaism or Christianity) seek to control female sexuality. It should be possible to ask what these different versions of Islam are about, and how they relate to each other, without suggesting all Muslims are fascists.

Yet to talk openly, freely, is of course what the gunmen want to stop. They demand respect for their god with the barrel of a gun.

In response we must fight them. And we must laugh, ridicule and ultimately disrespect them. Fanatics, as Amos Oz said, don’t really do jokes. There cannot be peaceful coexistence with those who are want to return to a fantasy of the seventh century. They brook no dissent. They fear laughter. Rushdie has spoken of how religion, all religion, deserves “our fearless disrespect”. Some have died for this. The least we can do is carry on being disrespectful.

I highly doubt "fearless disrespect", especially from outsiders works. It will hurt sensibilities of moderates more than anything. Just look at how our NRI patriots reacted to ridiculing of "Vedic Vimanas", most of them ended up supporting chaddis or the reaction of Hindus to offensive commercials by Tommy Hilfiger. Like I said in the other thread, muslim moderates will have to train themselves and their families. Society can play a role by helping/pushing them to reach that goal or better yet provide a platform to those moderates who are willing to poke fun at prophet publicly.

they all need to be equally trashed and desensitized. i have some minor personal experience with this sort of thing. we used to watch the mahabharat which aired in the late eighties, early nineties on the hostel TV mostly to make fun of the actors and the picturization. a couple of us were on a bombay local train talking about one particular episode in a disparaging way. some local shiv sena thug took offense to this and started picking a fight with us and physically threatened us. the funny thing about the whole incident was how tiny he was contrasted with how angry he got. anyway a bunch of well meaning people on the train defused the fight and all was well.

make movies like "life of brian" about all assorted religious figures. monty python are too scared to parody islam. ugh@religious nuts.

by MaxEntropy_Man Wed Jan 07, 2015 10:42 pm

we need a history of the world type movie about islam. remember this:

by Hellsangel Wed Jan 07, 2015 10:59 pm

confuzzled dude wrote:
Hellsangel wrote:The wussy Left in Europe.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/erik-wemple/wp/2015/01/07/fox-news-has-no-plans-to-air-charlie-hebdo-cartoons/?hpid=z6

Comrade, your response has nothing to do with what my link was about.

But talking of your response, according to it Fox News showed one of the cartoons while none of the other outlets showed any.

Why doesn't your favorite Pravda on the Potomac, WaPo show them?

PS: Don't let up on your heroic apologetic posts on Lonewolf attacks.

by MaxEntropy_Man Wed Jan 07, 2015 11:00 pm

the question shouldn't be where is the mainstream muslim contrition and condemnation, but where is the islamic mel brooks?

by confuzzled dude Wed Jan 07, 2015 11:17 pm

Hellsangel wrote:
confuzzled dude wrote:
Hellsangel wrote:The wussy Left in Europe.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/erik-wemple/wp/2015/01/07/fox-news-has-no-plans-to-air-charlie-hebdo-cartoons/?hpid=z6
Comrade, your response has nothing to do with what my link was about.

But talking of your response, according to it Fox News showed one of the cartoons while none of the other outlets showed any.

Why doesn't your favorite Pravda on the Potomac, WaPo show them?

PS: Don't let up on your heroic apologetic posts on Lonewolf attacks.

Huh! what's apologetic about my post? They all appear to be French citizens, do you have any information linking them to any of the groups?

by Hellsangel Wed Jan 07, 2015 11:27 pm

confuzzled dude wrote:
Hellsangel wrote:
confuzzled dude wrote:
Hellsangel wrote:The wussy Left in Europe.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/erik-wemple/wp/2015/01/07/fox-news-has-no-plans-to-air-charlie-hebdo-cartoons/?hpid=z6
Comrade, your response has nothing to do with what my link was about.

But talking of your response, according to it Fox News showed one of the cartoons while none of the other outlets showed any.

Why doesn't your favorite Pravda on the Potomac, WaPo show them?

PS: Don't let up on your heroic apologetic posts on Lonewolf attacks.
Huh! what's apologetic about my post? They all appear to be French citizens, do you have any information linking them to any of the groups?

My dear apolegetic Comrade, let's see. NY Times says:

Corinne Rey, a cartoonist known as Coco, who was at the newspaper office during the attack, told Le Monde that the attackers spoke fluent French and said that they were part of Al Qaeda.

BBC says:

Media reports described Cherif Kouachi as a militant sentenced in 2008 to three years in prison for belonging to a group sending jihadist fighters to Iraq.

And of course their names and religion are no secret.

by confuzzled dude Wed Jan 07, 2015 11:47 pm

Hellsangel wrote:
confuzzled dude wrote:
Hellsangel wrote:
confuzzled dude wrote:
Hellsangel wrote:The wussy Left in Europe.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/erik-wemple/wp/2015/01/07/fox-news-has-no-plans-to-air-charlie-hebdo-cartoons/?hpid=z6
Comrade, your response has nothing to do with what my link was about.

But talking of your response, according to it Fox News showed one of the cartoons while none of the other outlets showed any.

Why doesn't your favorite Pravda on the Potomac, WaPo show them?

PS: Don't let up on your heroic apologetic posts on Lonewolf attacks.
Huh! what's apologetic about my post? They all appear to be French citizens, do you have any information linking them to any of the groups?

My dear apolegetic Comrade, let's see. NY Times says:
Corinne Rey, a cartoonist known as Coco, who was at the newspaper office during the attack, told Le Monde that the attackers spoke fluent French and said that they were part of Al Qaeda.

BBC says:
Media reports described Cherif Kouachi as a militant sentenced in 2008 to three years in prison for belonging to a group sending jihadist fighters to Iraq.

And of course their names and religion are no secret.

Is there any information as to whether they had any help or acted on their own; being a part of Al Qaeda means nothing, it is a decentralized/disjointed/disconnected outfit of independent groups, there is no central command control. Isn't that what our security experts have been preaching?

by bw Wed Jan 07, 2015 11:54 pm

confuzzled dude wrote:
Hellsangel wrote:
confuzzled dude wrote:
Hellsangel wrote:
confuzzled dude wrote:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/erik-wemple/wp/2015/01/07/fox-news-has-no-plans-to-air-charlie-hebdo-cartoons/?hpid=z6
Comrade, your response has nothing to do with what my link was about.

But talking of your response, according to it Fox News showed one of the cartoons while none of the other outlets showed any.

Why doesn't your favorite Pravda on the Potomac, WaPo show them?

PS: Don't let up on your heroic apologetic posts on Lonewolf attacks.
Huh! what's apologetic about my post? They all appear to be French citizens, do you have any information linking them to any of the groups?

My dear apolegetic Comrade, let's see. NY Times says:
Corinne Rey, a cartoonist known as Coco, who was at the newspaper office during the attack, told Le Monde that the attackers spoke fluent French and said that they were part of Al Qaeda.

BBC says:
Media reports described Cherif Kouachi as a militant sentenced in 2008 to three years in prison for belonging to a group sending jihadist fighters to Iraq.

And of course their names and religion are no secret.
Is there any information as to whether they had any help or acted on their own; being a part of Al Qaeda means nothing, it is a decentralized/disjointed/disconnected outfit of independent groups, there is no central command control. Isn't that what our security experts have been preaching?

how does it matter if they acted as individuals or were commanded by someone. the fact is that some islamic nuts have killed people in the name of their "god". it is more disturbing if it is a lone wolf attack because that shows how truly dangerous religion can be!

by confuzzled dude Thu Jan 08, 2015 12:09 am

bw wrote:
confuzzled dude wrote:
Hellsangel wrote:
confuzzled dude wrote:
Hellsangel wrote:
Comrade, your response has nothing to do with what my link was about.

But talking of your response, according to it Fox News showed one of the cartoons while none of the other outlets showed any.

Why doesn't your favorite Pravda on the Potomac, WaPo show them?

PS: Don't let up on your heroic apologetic posts on Lonewolf attacks.
Huh! what's apologetic about my post? They all appear to be French citizens, do you have any information linking them to any of the groups?

My dear apolegetic Comrade, let's see. NY Times says:
Corinne Rey, a cartoonist known as Coco, who was at the newspaper office during the attack, told Le Monde that the attackers spoke fluent French and said that they were part of Al Qaeda.

BBC says:
Media reports described Cherif Kouachi as a militant sentenced in 2008 to three years in prison for belonging to a group sending jihadist fighters to Iraq.

And of course their names and religion are no secret.
Is there any information as to whether they had any help or acted on their own; being a part of Al Qaeda means nothing, it is a decentralized/disjointed/disconnected outfit of independent groups, there is no central command control. Isn't that what our security experts have been preaching?

how does it matter if they acted as individuals or were commanded by someone. the fact is that some islamic nuts have killed people in the name of their "god". it is more disturbing if it is a lone wolf attack because that shows how truly dangerous religion can be!

Well this sounds like France's Boston bombing, will be more concerning if Al Qaeda has its reach/presence inside France

by Merlot Daruwala Thu Jan 08, 2015 12:39 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:i have a different question though in context. is there a fundamental difference in the relationship of the US and that of europe, particularly france with islam? a few factors come to mind. the US is generally respectful of religion with a huge majority adhering to some judeo-christian faith. the media does not deliberately poke at religious sensibilities too often. not so in europe where religion itself is fading, and the generally atheistic media makes it a point to constantly rile islamic sensibilities.

also while european societies talk the talk about secularism and democracy, i don't think that they are secular and democratic in the same sense as the US. the hijab prohibition would have never worked in the US for example. and when shit does happen, the US takes a much harder stance and hands out much harsher punishments than europe.

lastly france has a complicated colonial history with many african islamic countries that the US does not have.

The assimilative nature of American society makes a big difference IMO. Most immigrants to the US, while adhering to their religion, eventually dilute the more extreme demonstrations of religious identity to blend in with the society around them. Within a generation, they are sporting American accents and American values, even though they pray to a different god.

That assimilation has not happened in Europe. Immigrants - mostly Islamic - live in their own ghettos, cut off from the mainstream. The squalor, the poverty, the obvious inequities and lack of opportunity lead them to cling on with even greater fervor to their religion than in their home country - not very different from how NRI Patriots tend to be more militantly Hindu, and aggressively Indian than the average resident Indian.

by confuzzled dude Thu Jan 08, 2015 12:42 am

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/paris-attack-lacked-hallmarks-of-islamist-assaults-in-west/2015/01/07/7a6c54f6-96a6-11e4-927a-4fa2638cd1b0_story.html?tid=HP_lede?tid=HP_lede

by truthbetold Thu Jan 08, 2015 1:22 am

Merlot Daruwala wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:i have a different question though in context. is there a fundamental difference in the relationship of the US and that of europe, particularly france with islam? a few factors come to mind. the US is generally respectful of religion with a huge majority adhering to some judeo-christian faith. the media does not deliberately poke at religious sensibilities too often. not so in europe where religion itself is fading, and the generally atheistic media makes it a point to constantly rile islamic sensibilities.

also while european societies talk the talk about secularism and democracy, i don't think that they are secular and democratic in the same sense as the US. the hijab prohibition would have never worked in the US for example. and when shit does happen, the US takes a much harder stance and hands out much harsher punishments than europe.

lastly france has a complicated colonial history with many african islamic countries that the US does not have.

The assimilative nature of American society makes a big difference IMO. Most immigrants to the US, while adhering to their religion, eventually dilute the more extreme demonstrations of religious identity to blend in with the society around them. Within a generation, they are sporting American accents and American values, even though they pray to a different god.

That assimilation has not happened in Europe. Immigrants - mostly Islamic - live in their own ghettos, cut off from the mainstream. The squalor, the poverty, the obvious inequities and lack of opportunity lead them to cling on with even greater fervor to their religion than in their home country - not very different from how NRI Patriots tend to be more militantly Hindu, and aggressively Indian than the average resident Indian.

MD

do you see the contradiction in your argument?

On one hand you say,

That assimilation has not happened in Europe. Immigrants - mostly Islamic - live in their own ghettos, cut off from the mainstream. The squalor, the poverty, the obvious inequities and lack of opportunity lead them to cling on with even greater fervor to their religion than in their home country

Then you go on to declare "not very different from how NRI Patriots tend to be more militantly hindu ....".

NRI Patriots are widely considered well integrated and economically successful.

But then why bother with facts when you can score points slamming the NRI patriots. And more importantly you cannot criticize your beloved jihadi group without dragging NRI patriots.

by Merlot Daruwala Thu Jan 08, 2015 1:36 am

truthbetold wrote:
Merlot Daruwala wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:i have a different question though in context. is there a fundamental difference in the relationship of the US and that of europe, particularly france with islam? a few factors come to mind. the US is generally respectful of religion with a huge majority adhering to some judeo-christian faith. the media does not deliberately poke at religious sensibilities too often. not so in europe where religion itself is fading, and the generally atheistic media makes it a point to constantly rile islamic sensibilities.

also while european societies talk the talk about secularism and democracy, i don't think that they are secular and democratic in the same sense as the US. the hijab prohibition would have never worked in the US for example. and when shit does happen, the US takes a much harder stance and hands out much harsher punishments than europe.

lastly france has a complicated colonial history with many african islamic countries that the US does not have.

The assimilative nature of American society makes a big difference IMO. Most immigrants to the US, while adhering to their religion, eventually dilute the more extreme demonstrations of religious identity to blend in with the society around them. Within a generation, they are sporting American accents and American values, even though they pray to a different god.

That assimilation has not happened in Europe. Immigrants - mostly Islamic - live in their own ghettos, cut off from the mainstream. The squalor, the poverty, the obvious inequities and lack of opportunity lead them to cling on with even greater fervor to their religion than in their home country - not very different from how NRI Patriots tend to be more militantly Hindu, and aggressively Indian than the average resident Indian.
MD

do you see the contradiction in your argument?

On one hand you say,

That assimilation has not happened in Europe. Immigrants - mostly Islamic - live in their own ghettos, cut off from the mainstream. The squalor, the poverty, the obvious inequities and lack of opportunity lead them to cling on with even greater fervor to their religion than in their home country

Then you go on to declare "not very different from how NRI Patriots tend to be more militantly hindu ....".

NRI Patriots are widely considered well integrated and economically successful.

But then why bother with facts when you can score points slamming the NRI patriots. And more importantly you cannot criticize your beloved jihadi group without dragging NRI patriots.

You make a (rare) valid point. To that extent, NRI Patriots cut a rather sorry figure, without even an economic rationale to justify their primitive mindsets. They are hyper-religious and hyper-jingoistic *despite* doing well economically, and get more so with passing time.

Maybe it is something in their holy books, written all those millenia ago, which they cling to ever more so after abandoning their home countries, which make them that way. After all, resident Indians rarely bother to read the "National Book".

by truthbetold Thu Jan 08, 2015 1:41 am

MD

Keep trying. You drag irrelevant NRI patriots and then go on and on about it. Your tactics of turning inconvenient discussions into diversionary discussions and/or personal battles is very well illustrated here.

by Merlot Daruwala Thu Jan 08, 2015 1:49 am

truthbetold wrote:MD

Keep trying. You drag irrelevant NRI patriots and then go on and on about it. Your tactics of turning inconvenient discussions into diversionary discussions and/or personal battles is very well illustrated here.

TBT, why do you feel compelled to react to whatever I write? I would think a rational person would simply ignore whatever he/she finds irrelevant or diversionary.

by Kris Thu Jan 08, 2015 2:01 am

confuzzled dude wrote:
Hellsangel wrote:
confuzzled dude wrote:
Hellsangel wrote:
confuzzled dude wrote:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/erik-wemple/wp/2015/01/07/fox-news-has-no-plans-to-air-charlie-hebdo-cartoons/?hpid=z6
Comrade, your response has nothing to do with what my link was about.

But talking of your response, according to it Fox News showed one of the cartoons while none of the other outlets showed any.

Why doesn't your favorite Pravda on the Potomac, WaPo show them?

PS: Don't let up on your heroic apologetic posts on Lonewolf attacks.
Huh! what's apologetic about my post? They all appear to be French citizens, do you have any information linking them to any of the groups?

My dear apolegetic Comrade, let's see. NY Times says:
Corinne Rey, a cartoonist known as Coco, who was at the newspaper office during the attack, told Le Monde that the attackers spoke fluent French and said that they were part of Al Qaeda.

BBC says:
Media reports described Cherif Kouachi as a militant sentenced in 2008 to three years in prison for belonging to a group sending jihadist fighters to Iraq.

And of course their names and religion are no secret.
Is there any information as to whether they had any help or acted on their own; being a part of Al Qaeda means nothing, it is a decentralized/disjointed/disconnected outfit of independent groups, there is no central command control. Isn't that what our security experts have been preaching?

>>>The security experts' pronouncements aside, there is no comfort that these guys may be non- al queda. Even Lone Wolves beget copycats, a very distinct possibility in Europe today, if you see the number of self-styled jihadists cropping up and wanting to go the middle east. For all the raps the French get, I have a feeling they are going to do something concrete. There are various rightist groups getting vocal in europe now and there is political compulsion.

by southindian Thu Jan 08, 2015 6:58 am

Pssstt...

Is this a good to bring RSS, Chaddi and Modi in discussion since mosques are now attacked in France?

by Hellsangel Thu Jan 08, 2015 7:58 am

Who is publishing the cartoons?
http://money.cnn.com/2015/01/07/media/charlie-hebdo-terror-attack-media-mohammed-cartoons/index.html

by MaxEntropy_Man Thu Jan 08, 2015 8:03 am

Hellsangel wrote:Who is publishing the cartoons?
http://money.cnn.com/2015/01/07/media/charlie-hebdo-terror-attack-media-mohammed-cartoons/index.html

looks like your favorite whipping rag, the "pravda on the potomac" has decided to show some testicles.

by Hellsangel Thu Jan 08, 2015 8:06 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Hellsangel wrote:Who is publishing the cartoons?
http://money.cnn.com/2015/01/07/media/charlie-hebdo-terror-attack-media-mohammed-cartoons/index.html

looks like your favorite whipping rag, the "pravda on the potomac" has decided to show some testicles.

We'll see later today. Too bad the NY Times refrained.

by MaxEntropy_Man Thu Jan 08, 2015 8:39 am

i think the post should summon up courage and publish the cartoons wholesale. if it can do this, why not the cartoons?

by Hellsangel Thu Jan 08, 2015 8:43 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:i think the post should summon up courage and publish the cartoons wholesale. if it can do this, why not the cartoons?

It's the usual double-standard.

by MaxEntropy_Man Thu Jan 08, 2015 8:46 am

this happened not too long ago, but no blood was shed.

by Hellsangel Thu Jan 08, 2015 8:47 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:this happened not too long ago, but no blood was shed.

The difference is the religions involved.

by MaxEntropy_Man Thu Jan 08, 2015 9:04 am

Hellsangel wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:this happened not too long ago, but no blood was shed.

The difference is the religions involved.

agree. assdoctor's friends khAdilkar mAmA and dEshpandE kAkA from the local shakha don't pick up kalahnikovs as their first reaction.

by truthbetold Thu Jan 08, 2015 9:05 am

It could be an opportunity for publications around the world to join and publish the so called offensive cartoons. One that will defeat the chilling effect sought by terrorists. It will also break the hesitancy among publications in facing Islamic fundamentalism.
Reasonable can understand the difference between provocation and freedom of expression.

by truthbetold Thu Jan 08, 2015 9:14 am

Reading through the thread you get the feeling that people are frustrated at this long drawn no end in sight of cultural conflict. So much blood in so many places. The problem is it forces people to change behavior and invest so much in preventive safety.

The central players in any solution to this problem are Muslim intellectuals. They have to create avenues for discussions inside muslim societies and households. Muslim must realize they have to adapt to modern realities. Absence of this effort, Islamic terrorism will remain a problem for a long time.

Drain the swamp.

by MaxEntropy_Man Thu Jan 08, 2015 9:17 am

truthbetold wrote:Reading through the thread you get the feeling that people are frustrated at this long drawn no end in sight of cultural conflict. So much blood in so many places. The problem is it forces people to change behavior and invest so much in preventive safety.

The central players in any solution to this problem are Muslim intellectuals. They have to create avenues for discussions inside muslim societies and households. Muslim must realize they have to adapt to modern realities. Absence of this effort, Islamic terrorism will remain a problem for a long time.

Drain the swamp.

what makes you think this isn't happening?

so many instances show that the older generation is the one that wants to integrate into modern societies and cautioning restraint, and the younger people are the ones heading off into war torn lands and throwing themselves into the hands of jihadis.

by truthbetold Thu Jan 08, 2015 9:47 am

Max

1. I am sure there are few avenues and households in the wider Islamic world that are open to such discussion. But based on available information from islamic world those avenues are not widespread or well known. The Muslim intellectual has realize the moment in history requires wider action from within. Lack of action is fatalistic approach to the realities.

2. Muslim immigrant community in the west is huge. Just because few of them went to Syria does not mean that their generation is with them.

3. Muslim intellectuals inside and sensible outside should work to separate the problems of terror attacks on opponents and Islamic cultural transformation. Two centuries back Islam may have lot of time to adapt but globalized economic interaction is shortening the adaptation time. So more work is required from Muslim intellectuals to train their own families and younger generations.

by confuzzled dude Thu Jan 08, 2015 10:08 am

Kris wrote:
>>>The security experts' pronouncements aside, there is no comfort that these guys may be non- al queda. Even Lone Wolves beget copycats, a very distinct possibility in Europe today, if you see the number of self-styled jihadists cropping up and wanting to go the middle east. For all the raps the French get, I have a feeling they are going to do something concrete. There are various rightist groups getting vocal in europe now and there is political compulsion.

Lets hope our own NRAnuts take their cues from this.

by Hellsangel Thu Jan 08, 2015 10:22 am

confuzzled dude wrote:
Kris wrote:
>>>The security experts' pronouncements aside, there is no comfort that these guys may be non- al queda. Even Lone Wolves beget copycats, a very distinct possibility in Europe today, if you see the number of self-styled jihadists cropping up and wanting to go the middle east. For all the raps the French get, I have a feeling they are going to do something concrete. There are various rightist groups getting vocal in europe now and there is political compulsion.
Lets hope our own NRAnuts take their cues from this.

I'm surprised you haven't started your Modi-chalisa here yet, Comrade.

by Hellsangel Thu Jan 08, 2015 10:42 am

What the Islamic terrorists achieved:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30721677 wrote:'Revenge' attacks
Seven people believed to be connected to the Kouachi brothers have been detained in the towns of Reims and Charleville-Mezieres, as well as in the Paris area.

Cherif Kouachi was sentenced in 2008 to three years in prison for belonging to a Paris-based group sending jihadist fighters to Iraq.

Since the shootings, there appear to have been a number of revenge attacks on Muslims reported by French media, though nobody was hurt:

Two shots were fired at a Muslim prayer room in the town of Port-la-Nouvelle in the southern region of Aude on Wednesday evening

A Muslim family was shot at in their car in Caromb, in the southern region of Vaucluse

Dummy grenades were thrown during the night at a mosque in Le Mans, western France

The slogan "Death to Arabs" was daubed on the door of a mosque in Poitiers, central France, during the night

A blast hit a kebab shop beside a mosque in Villefranche-sur-Saone in central France

by MaxEntropy_Man Thu Jan 08, 2015 11:02 am

truthbetold wrote:Max

1. I am sure there are few avenues and households in the wider Islamic world that are open to such discussion. But based on available information from islamic world those avenues are not widespread or well known. The Muslim intellectual has realize the moment in history requires wider action from within. Lack of action is fatalistic approach to the realities.

2. Muslim immigrant community in the west is huge. Just because few of them went to Syria does not mean that their generation is with them.

3. Muslim intellectuals inside and sensible outside should work to separate the problems of terror attacks on opponents and Islamic cultural transformation. Two centuries back Islam may have lot of time to adapt but globalized economic interaction is shortening the adaptation time. So more work is required from Muslim intellectuals to train their own families and younger generations.

the ~~shoe~~ underpants bomber's parents warned authorities about their son who was getting radicalized. the toilet cleaner jihadi from bombay who went to syria was advised by his family to desist from his jihadi aspirations. the three girls from colorado who traveled to syria were eventually stopped because of a father's intervention. many more such examples exist if you only care to look.

by truthbetold Thu Jan 08, 2015 11:05 am

Our sucher psuedos should note that after almost all terrorist attacks no revenge attack took place in India. In other words Indian people understood terrorist attacks are Pakistan inspired and controlled by external forces.

Godhra is not perceived as an external induced action.

by confuzzled dude Thu Jan 08, 2015 11:31 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
the ~~shoe~~ underpants bomber's parents warned authorities about their son who was getting radicalized. the toilet cleaner jihadi from bombay who went to syria was advised by his family to desist from his jihadi aspirations. the three girls from colorado who traveled to syria were eventually stopped because of a father's intervention. many more such examples exist if you only care to look.

-> Looks like, in this case, his upbringing has got nothing to do with him turning into a nutcase.

According to Agence France-Presse, Kouachi was born in the 10th arrondissement in 1982 to Algerian parents. Later, he resettled in the 19th arrondissement, a community with a sizable Arab population on the outskirts of northeastern Paris. By the time Kouachi was in his early 20s, both of his parents were dead, his attorney, Vincent Ollivier, told the Pittsburgh Tribune-Review in 2005.

At that time, the Iraq War raged thousands of miles away, and radical Islam simmered in the 19th arrondissement. Its skyline was crowded with the sort of high-rises the Associated Press described as “public housing slums that breed violence and crime.” Kouachi was listless and didn’t adhere strictly to many Islamic precepts. “He drank, smoked pot, slept with his girlfriend and delivered pizzas for a living,” the Tribune-Review paraphrased Ollivier as saying. In those years, he worked a series of dead-end jobs — as a pizza deliveryman, a supermarket clerk, a fishmonger — and spent a lot of time listening to rap music.

But in 2005, Kouachi’s plan hit a snare when police arrested Kouachi and his traveling companion as they were about to leave. Kouachi told authorities he had been having second thoughts about Iraq and was “relieved” when he was arrested. “My client was rather pleased to be arrested by police instead of seeing his project through,” attorney Ollivier said.

While other members of the recruiting network received lengthy prison sentences, Kouachi got off with a three-year sentence and was released in 2008. From there, he vanished from journalistic reports — only to suddenly reemerge on Wednesday, authorities said, to perhaps finally realize his aspirations of launching a terrorist attack in France

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/01/08/how-a-suspected-charlie-hebdo-gunman-turned-into-a-professional-jihadist/?hpid=z1

by Hellsangel Thu Jan 08, 2015 11:38 am

Hellsangel wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Hellsangel wrote:Who is publishing the cartoons?
http://money.cnn.com/2015/01/07/media/charlie-hebdo-terror-attack-media-mohammed-cartoons/index.html

looks like your favorite whipping rag, the "pravda on the potomac" has decided to show some testicles.

We'll see later today. Too bad the NY Times refrained.

More on this:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/news-organizations-wrestle-with-whether-to-publish-charlie-hebdo-cartoons-after-attack/2015/01/07/841e9c8c-96bc-11e4-8005-1924ede3e54a_story.html?hpid=z2 wrote:Neither the New York Times nor The Washington Post has ever published the Danish or French cartoons, and both indicated Wednesday that they don’t intend to.

However, The Post’s op-ed page, which is under separate editorial management, will publish one of the Charlie Hebdo cartoons in Thursday’s editions. The image, from the newspaper’s cover in 2011, depicts Muhammad with a caption reading “100 Lashes If You Don’t Die Laughing”; it apparently inspired the firebombing several days after it appeared. “I think seeing the cover will help readers understand what this is all about,” said Fred Hiatt, The Post’s editorial editor.

by truthbetold Thu Jan 08, 2015 11:52 am

max
Your examples of parents helping to save their kids is noted. But what is the purpose of those examples? If I do more research as you suggest and find few more examples , what does that prove?

by confuzzled dude Thu Jan 08, 2015 11:55 am

truthbetold wrote:It could be an opportunity for publications around the world to join and publish the so called offensive cartoons. One that will defeat the chilling effect sought by terrorists. It will also break the hesitancy among publications in facing Islamic fundamentalism.
Reasonable can understand the difference between provocation and freedom of expression.

I'm afraid it's pseudo-bravadoism because world is still going to continue with monitoring, profiling and securing airports.

by truthbetold Thu Jan 08, 2015 11:59 am

confuzzled dude wrote:
truthbetold wrote:It could be an opportunity for publications around the world to join and publish the so called offensive cartoons. One that will defeat the chilling effect sought by terrorists. It will also break the hesitancy among publications in facing Islamic fundamentalism.
Reasonable can understand the difference between provocation and freedom of expression.
I'm afraid it's pseudo-bravadoism because world still going to continue with monitoring, profiling and securing airports.

Cd
How is publishing cartoons psuedo bravadoism?
What is wrong with securing airports as long as there is a threat?

by confuzzled dude Thu Jan 08, 2015 12:07 pm

truthbetold wrote:
confuzzled dude wrote:
truthbetold wrote:It could be an opportunity for publications around the world to join and publish the so called offensive cartoons. One that will defeat the chilling effect sought by terrorists. It will also break the hesitancy among publications in facing Islamic fundamentalism.
Reasonable can understand the difference between provocation and freedom of expression.
I'm afraid it's pseudo-bravadoism because world still going to continue with monitoring, profiling and securing airports.
Cd
How is publishing cartoons psuedo bravadoism?
What is wrong with securing airports as long as there is a threat?

Because we altered the way we live, in every other aspect.

by Hellsangel Thu Jan 08, 2015 12:18 pm

confuzzled dude wrote:
truthbetold wrote:
confuzzled dude wrote:
truthbetold wrote:It could be an opportunity for publications around the world to join and publish the so called offensive cartoons. One that will defeat the chilling effect sought by terrorists. It will also break the hesitancy among publications in facing Islamic fundamentalism.
Reasonable can understand the difference between provocation and freedom of expression.
I'm afraid it's pseudo-bravadoism because world still going to continue with monitoring, profiling and securing airports.
Cd
How is publishing cartoons psuedo bravadoism?
What is wrong with securing airports as long as there is a threat?
Because we altered the way we live, in every other aspect.

What does that have to do with anything, Comrade? Flailing much? We didn't need passports either a while back.

The Times. They're a changin'

by smArtha Thu Jan 08, 2015 12:19 pm

Merlot Daruwala wrote:

That assimilation has not happened in Europe. Immigrants - mostly Islamic - live in their own ghettos, cut off from the mainstream. The squalor, the poverty, the obvious inequities and lack of opportunity lead them to cling on with even greater fervor to their religion than in their home country - not very different from how NRI Patriots tend to be more militantly Hindu, and aggressively Indian than the average resident Indian.

What a wisdom what a wisdom Sir ji

Let me summarize for the benefit of all. The NRI Hindus (especially those in US/Europe)

a) live in their own ghettos cut off from main stream
b) suffer poverty and lack of opportunities and thus develop greater fervor to their religion or religious ideologies/philosophies
c) And these more militantly NRI Hindus are comparably as aggressive as the Islamic ones (please discount any facts that these militant ones haven't killed a single person in the world in the name of their religion or its tenets).

by truthbetold Thu Jan 08, 2015 12:29 pm

Cd
You said "we altered our way of living " etc.
How is that an answer to earlier questions?
In any case the change was forced for security reasons.
Instead of cryptic answers please take your time to enlighten us with clear direct responses.

by confuzzled dude Thu Jan 08, 2015 1:51 pm

Hellsangel wrote:
confuzzled dude wrote:
truthbetold wrote:
confuzzled dude wrote:
truthbetold wrote:It could be an opportunity for publications around the world to join and publish the so called offensive cartoons. One that will defeat the chilling effect sought by terrorists. It will also break the hesitancy among publications in facing Islamic fundamentalism.
Reasonable can understand the difference between provocation and freedom of expression.
I'm afraid it's pseudo-bravadoism because world still going to continue with monitoring, profiling and securing airports.
Cd
How is publishing cartoons psuedo bravadoism?
What is wrong with securing airports as long as there is a threat?
Because we altered the way we live, in every other aspect.

What does that have to do with anything, Comrade? Flailing much? We didn't need passports either a while back.

The Times. They're a changin'

Were passports enforced for the same reason security was tightened in the airports and other places?

by confuzzled dude Thu Jan 08, 2015 1:55 pm

truthbetold wrote:Cd
You said "we altered our way of living " etc.
How is that an answer to earlier questions?
In any case the change was forced for security reasons.
Instead of cryptic answers please take your time to enlighten us with clear direct responses.

There is nothing cryptic about what I said, we base our opinions & make our decisions based on risk assessment so I don't see the need for unnecessary chest thumping (they can't defeat us nonsense) because we already caved in when we started not being ourselves.

by Seva Lamberdar Thu Jan 08, 2015 1:59 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:we need a history of the world type movie about islam. remember this:

Why do you think the Muslims see it as their natural right to criticize and look down upon others' religious figures / personalities and holy books, derogatorily call others as 'kafirs' (requiring elimination) and change (sometimes through force) others' religious practices, while the same thing happening to them is considered blasphemy and forcefully resisted?

by MaxEntropy_Man Thu Jan 08, 2015 2:09 pm

seva - i feel you're dying to quote the koran. why don't you just do it?

by Hellsangel Thu Jan 08, 2015 2:10 pm

confuzzled dude wrote:
Hellsangel wrote:
confuzzled dude wrote:
truthbetold wrote:
confuzzled dude wrote:
I'm afraid it's pseudo-bravadoism because world still going to continue with monitoring, profiling and securing airports.
Cd
How is publishing cartoons psuedo bravadoism?
What is wrong with securing airports as long as there is a threat?
Because we altered the way we live, in every other aspect.

What does that have to do with anything, Comrade? Flailing much? We didn't need passports either a while back.

The Times. They're a changin'
Were passports enforced for the same reason security was tightened in the airports and other places?

Comrade, answering a question with an unrelated question is your forte. The point is we adapt to the situation and deal with it. If you think having security in airports only started after 9/11, you're more demented than I thought. Hijackings, etc. happened long before that and there were security procedures in place even then.

by Seva Lamberdar Thu Jan 08, 2015 2:14 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:seva - i feel you're dying to quote the koran. why don't you just do it?

You are not feeling rightly, Max.

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