why would an ivy league grad settle for grunt work?

by MaxEntropy_Man Tue Jun 02, 2015 10:45 am

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/young-banker-struggled-quitting-goldman-131801770.html

by MaxEntropy_Man Tue Jun 02, 2015 10:55 am

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/02/business/dealbook/reflections-on-stress-and-long-hours-on-wall-street.html

a comment in the comments section:

MS NYC 29 minutes ago
I work for an investment bank. Ever wondered exactly what is the "work" these bankers do? Its a) Qualitative "Research" on a given industry/business b) "Numbers" or the financials of the deal, essentially glorified arithmetic and c) the presentation of the above.

How essential is the function of a banker in the grand scheme of things?Finance is not rocket science. It escapes me why so many young capable graduates choose to do what amounts to glorified paperwork.

Think of the people in the hard/applied sciences or medical research. Which job function is more important for our quality of life as a society? And why does the job market pay a banker more than it does a cancer researcher?

This man died a meaningless death.

by MaxEntropy_Man Tue Jun 02, 2015 11:00 am

sf pa. 32 minutes ago
My heart goes out to the Doctors Without Borders physician who works 20-hour days in refugee camps on the borders of war-torn hells, the immigrant from Texas who is working three jobs to support his family and keep a roof over their heads, the college student who studies late into the night after he's finished his shifts at this two parttime jobs, the single mother who works a minimum-wage job while raising her two kids in a long-term shelter, the old woman crippled with arthritis still cleaning houses because she can't survive on her meager Social Security check. The Wall Street wanna-be hotshot? No way -- quit your finance job and work at something of value to this world.

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Tue Jun 02, 2015 11:38 am

Any different from what I have been frowning upon. Everything that is NOT based on Natural laws is a fake. Law degree and all business degrees and to some extent some fields in humanities are all man-made and dispensable.

Oh...why do the IVY leaguers what to go to Looter Street ? The same reason why the top JEE rankers from IITs end up working as looters and code coolies. It is all about instant gratification and quick bucks.

The concept of long-term plan, welfare, and society's goodness are all obsolete.

P.S. BTW, looks like the "Elite college" angst has caught up with you. You might deny it...but, I knew it would come and it is only natural. My views are changing ever so slightly - inch-by-inch - based on what I notice and the reality and perception of the "society"

by swapna Tue Jun 02, 2015 12:15 pm

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:Any different from what I have been frowning upon. Everything that is NOT based on Natural lexaws is a fake. Law degree and all business degrees and to some extent some fields in humanities are all man-made and dispensable.

Oh...why do the IVY leaguers what to go to Looter Street ? The same reason why the top JEE rankers from IITs end up working as looters and code coolies. It is all about instant gratification and quick bucks.

The concept of long-term plan, welfare, and society's goodness are all obsolete.

P.S. BTW, looks like the "Elite college" angst has caught up with you. You might deny it...but, I knew it would come and it is only natural. My views are changing ever so slightly - inch-by-inch - based on what I notice and the reality and perception of the "society"

"the society?" which society?

by swapna Tue Jun 02, 2015 12:26 pm

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:Everything that is NOT based on Natural laws is a fake.

I suppose you haven't heard of mathematics.

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Tue Jun 02, 2015 12:31 pm

swapna wrote:
Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:Everything that is NOT based on Natural laws is a fake.

I suppose you haven't heard of mathematics.

So mathematics is not based on the laws of nature ?...Even the so called imaginary component of complex variables is applied widely in the area of solid mechanics. If mathematics is not based on Natural laws, then they wont be applicable to Physics or applications based on Physics.

by swapna Tue Jun 02, 2015 12:55 pm

short answer: $.

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Tue Jun 02, 2015 1:01 pm

swapna wrote:short answer: $.

The proper answer = = what I said.

by swapna Tue Jun 02, 2015 1:28 pm

it's not necessarily "grunt work." what gupta did in his first job was most likely made up of elements of what he studied and trained for at wharton.

by and large, one does not design, develop, or put in place, entire products or systems until one has analyzed, dealt with, and learnt about many of its components. that's what a first job is for.

if that didn't suit his personality and temperament, he should have resigned and sought another kind of job.

but then, that too may have been nearly impossible, because he had what kind of father? an I N D I A N father! and that, quite likely means A U T O C R A T I C.

by swapna Tue Jun 02, 2015 2:02 pm

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:
swapna wrote:
Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:Everything that is NOT based on Natural laws is a fake.

I suppose you haven't heard of mathematics.

So mathematics is not based on the laws of nature ?...Even the so called imaginary component of complex variables is applied widely in the area of solid mechanics. If mathematics is not based on Natural laws, then they wont be applicable to Physics or applications based on Physics.

contradictory and weak argument! apparently you failed to read and make sense of the word "imaginary" that you yourself used! that would mean not real, not existing in nature.

by bw Tue Jun 02, 2015 9:42 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:http://finance.yahoo.com/news/young-banker-struggled-quitting-goldman-131801770.html

don't most of the ivy league kids end up at wall street?

“Oh, you know the path,” a Princeton student recently told me at a recruiting event, “you go to an Ivy League school. Then you either become an investment banker or a management consultant. After two-three years, you apply to law school or b-school. And if you fall off the path for even one year, you can’t get back on.”

The best universities in the world are turning many graduates into krill for too-big-to-fail corporate leviathans. Since they’re well-paid krill, no one complains, but when more than a third of a graduating class disappears each year into the gaping maw of financial services, it begs the question whether Ivy League schools are teaching critical thinking after all.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/michaelgibson/2014/02/07/the-ivy-league-has-perfected-the-investment-banker-and-management-consultant-replicator/

by MaxEntropy_Man Tue Jun 02, 2015 10:13 pm

bw wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:http://finance.yahoo.com/news/young-banker-struggled-quitting-goldman-131801770.html

don't most of the ivy league kids end up at wall street?

“Oh, you know the path,” a Princeton student recently told me at a recruiting event, “you go to an Ivy League school. Then you either become an investment banker or a management consultant. After two-three years, you apply to law school or b-school. And if you fall off the path for even one year, you can’t get back on.”

The best universities in the world are turning many graduates into krill for too-big-to-fail corporate leviathans. Since they’re well-paid krill, no one complains, but when more than a third of a graduating class disappears each year into the gaping maw of financial services, it begs the question whether Ivy League schools are teaching critical thinking after all.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/michaelgibson/2014/02/07/the-ivy-league-has-perfected-the-investment-banker-and-management-consultant-replicator/

isn't this what the uppuswamy gounderiyengars (with changing opinions of elite schools) of the world, razz iit-ans about?

by bw Tue Jun 02, 2015 10:20 pm

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:
swapna wrote:
Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:Everything that is NOT based on Natural laws is a fake.

I suppose you haven't heard of mathematics.

So mathematics is not based on the laws of nature ?...Even the so called imaginary component of complex variables is applied widely in the area of solid mechanics. If mathematics is not based on Natural laws, then they wont be applicable to Physics or applications based on Physics.

nature is based on the laws of mathematics.

by Kris Tue Jun 02, 2015 11:41 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:http://finance.yahoo.com/news/young-banker-struggled-quitting-goldman-131801770.html

>>> A very sad story indeed. Why did the father want him to go back to GS if the kid was clearly having problems there? Putting in crazy hours is not for everyone and certainly can break you if you don't like what you are doing or the environment. This should also be a lesson for the hard-charging Asian parental types who have a narrow idea of success.

by confuzzled dude Wed Jun 03, 2015 7:08 am

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:Any different from what I have been frowning upon. Everything that is NOT based on Natural laws is a fake. Law degree and all business degrees and to some extent some fields in humanities are all man-made and dispensable.

Oh...why do the IVY leaguers what to go to Looter Street ? The same reason why the top JEE rankers from IITs end up working as looters and code coolies. It is all about instant gratification and quick bucks.

The concept of long-term plan, welfare, and society's goodness are all obsolete.

P.S. BTW, looks like the "Elite college" angst has caught up with you. You might deny it...but, I knew it would come and it is only natural. My views are changing ever so slightly - inch-by-inch - based on what I notice and the reality and perception of the "society"

Wonders of Capitalism..

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Wed Jun 03, 2015 11:14 am

confuzzled dude wrote:
Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:Any different from what I have been frowning upon. Everything that is NOT based on Natural laws is a fake. Law degree and all business degrees and to some extent some fields in humanities are all man-made and dispensable.

Oh...why do the IVY leaguers what to go to Looter Street ? The same reason why the top JEE rankers from IITs end up working as looters and code coolies. It is all about instant gratification and quick bucks.

The concept of long-term plan, welfare, and society's goodness are all obsolete.

P.S. BTW, looks like the "Elite college" angst has caught up with you. You might deny it...but, I knew it would come and it is only natural. My views are changing ever so slightly - inch-by-inch - based on what I notice and the reality and perception of the "society"
Wonders of Capitalism..

It is beyond that now. It is more like Lootism. Wall Street was supposed to be reflective of the working of various industries on ground. While most sectors are still working on ground realities of production, profit and loss, the financial world of Wall Street has branched off into what one can only call "casino-concept". everything is now based on speculation, guess work, and so-called prediction and not what is happening right now.

The only time, the Wall Street reflects the old concept is when the companies report their quarterly incomes.

by Guest Wed Jun 03, 2015 12:20 pm

bw wrote:
Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:
swapna wrote:
Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:Everything that is NOT based on Natural laws is a fake.

I suppose you haven't heard of mathematics.

So mathematics is not based on the laws of nature ?...Even the so called imaginary component of complex variables is applied widely in the area of solid mechanics. If mathematics is not based on Natural laws, then they wont be applicable to Physics or applications based on Physics.

nature is based on the laws of mathematics.

no. nature is not based on the "laws" of mathematics. mathematics (it's understanding) is constricted by the laws of nature.

by swapna Wed Jun 03, 2015 1:11 pm

brie wrote:
bw wrote:
Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:
swapna wrote:
Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:Everything that is NOT based on Natural laws is a fake.

I suppose you haven't heard of mathematics.

So mathematics is not based on the laws of nature ?...Even the so called imaginary component of complex variables is applied widely in the area of solid mechanics. If mathematics is not based on Natural laws, then they wont be applicable to Physics or applications based on Physics.

nature is based on the laws of mathematics.
no. nature is not based on the "laws" of mathematics. mathematics (it's understanding) is constricted by the laws of nature.

hahaha + haha @"constricted"! some other random word may sound better; try."mathematics is eviscerated by the laws of nature. it's meaningless, but sounds better than your "constricted."

by swapna Wed Jun 03, 2015 1:51 pm

brie wrote:
bw wrote:
Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:
swapna wrote:
Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:Everything that is NOT based on Natural laws is a fake.

I suppose you haven't heard of mathematics.

So mathematics is not based on the laws of nature ?...Even the so called imaginary component of complex variables is applied widely in the area of solid mechanics. If mathematics is not based on Natural laws, then they wont be applicable to Physics or applications based on Physics.

nature is based on the laws of mathematics.
no. nature is not based on the "laws" of mathematics. mathematics (it's understanding) is constricted by the laws of nature.

"its understanding," not "it's understanding." note the absence of the apostrophe in "its."

by swapna Wed Jun 03, 2015 2:12 pm

brie wrote:
bw wrote:
Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:
swapna wrote:
Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:Everything that is NOT based on Natural laws is a fake.

I suppose you haven't heard of mathematics.

So mathematics is not based on the laws of nature ?...Even the so called imaginary component of complex variables is applied widely in the area of solid mechanics. If mathematics is not based on Natural laws, then they wont be applicable to Physics or applications based on Physics.

nature is based on the laws of mathematics.
no. nature is not based on the "laws" of mathematics. mathematics (it's understanding) is constricted by the laws of nature.

nonsense! mathematics is restricted by nothing but the human mind and imagination, and certainly not by the laws of nature. if it were, much of number theory would not exist; nor would group theory, or imaginary or complex numbers, or any of complex analysis.

by Guest Thu Jun 04, 2015 12:34 am

swapna wrote:
brie wrote:
bw wrote:
Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:
swapna wrote:

I suppose you haven't heard of mathematics.

So mathematics is not based on the laws of nature ?...Even the so called imaginary component of complex variables is applied widely in the area of solid mechanics. If mathematics is not based on Natural laws, then they wont be applicable to Physics or applications based on Physics.

nature is based on the laws of mathematics.
no. nature is not based on the "laws" of mathematics. mathematics (it's understanding) is constricted by the laws of nature.

nonsense! mathematics is restricted by nothing but the human mind and imagination, and certainly not by the laws of nature. if it were, much of number theory would not exist; nor would group theory, or imaginary or complex numbers, or any of complex analysis.

see, it is easy to argue with you because your knowledge of the subject is shallow (and your vision is clouded) and thus i won't bother arguing with you.

that said, i am hardly an expert on the subject. a person like max or bw might be able to give a convincing argument as to why i am wrong (if indeed i am). in any case -- to all -- take my comment with a pinch of salt.

by Guest Thu Jun 04, 2015 2:33 am

swapna wrote:
brie wrote:
bw wrote:
Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:
swapna wrote:

I suppose you haven't heard of mathematics.

So mathematics is not based on the laws of nature ?...Even the so called imaginary component of complex variables is applied widely in the area of solid mechanics. If mathematics is not based on Natural laws, then they wont be applicable to Physics or applications based on Physics.

nature is based on the laws of mathematics.
no. nature is not based on the "laws" of mathematics. mathematics (it's understanding) is constricted by the laws of nature.

nonsense! mathematics is restricted by nothing

shhhhh! do not say that aloud. people might suspect you are raving mad.

if it were, much of number theory would not exist; nor would group theory

lol. one of the limitations of mathematics exists in number theory. $100 prize to kay kay tea consultancy for googling it out.

by MaxEntropy_Man Thu Jun 04, 2015 6:34 am

swapna wrote:it's not necessarily "grunt work." what gupta did in his first job was most likely made up of elements of what he studied and trained for at wharton.

i have no direct experience with what fresh grads do at wall street firms. however in recent years, i have helped more than one young person (nearly all indian american, and nearly all from california!) turn to more fulfilling careers in science and engineering in their late twenties and early thirties after they've spent a few years doing what they describe as boring grunt work at wall street firms. and you're right in more than one case there was an influential father in the picture who purposefully turned them away from science and engineering into finance.

OTOH i have also heard of more than one theoretical physics ph.d. being hired by wall street firms. one hopes they didn't settle for grunt work.

by garam_kuta Thu Jun 04, 2015 9:10 am

brie wrote:
bw wrote:
Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:
swapna wrote:
Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:Everything that is NOT based on Natural laws is a fake.

I suppose you haven't heard of mathematics.

So mathematics is not based on the laws of nature ?...Even the so called imaginary component of complex variables is applied widely in the area of solid mechanics. If mathematics is not based on Natural laws, then they wont be applicable to Physics or applications based on Physics.

nature is based on the laws of mathematics.
no. nature is not based on the "laws" of mathematics. mathematics (it's understanding) is constricted by the laws of nature.

my 2 cents: try explaining biology with the laws of physics and math... see whether one can derive it from its first principles....clearly we need a new kind of math!

Schrödinger's what is life is a great book to read.

by confuzzled dude Thu Jun 04, 2015 9:21 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:http://finance.yahoo.com/news/young-banker-struggled-quitting-goldman-131801770.html

Are we implying that no Ivy leaguer should settle for grunt work and each & every Ivy leaguer is better than a state school graduate? I've seen my share of Ivy leaguers in my line of work who are mere average Joes. If you still have doubts, you don't have to look much further than the last two presidents of this country (3, if you include Clinton and his housing market moves that created all this mess).

by MaxEntropy_Man Thu Jun 04, 2015 9:25 am

confuzzled dude wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:http://finance.yahoo.com/news/young-banker-struggled-quitting-goldman-131801770.html
Are we implying that no Ivy leaguer should settle for grunt work and each & every Ivy leaguer is better than a state school graduate? I've seen my share of Ivy leaguers in my line of work who are mere average Joes. If you still have doubts, you don't have to look much further than the last two presidents of this country (3, if you include Clinton and his housing market moves that created all this mess).

no intelligent person, ivy league or otherwise should settle for grunt work. it's soul crushing.

by Guest Thu Jun 04, 2015 9:46 am

garam_kuta wrote:
brie wrote:
bw wrote:
Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:
swapna wrote:

I suppose you haven't heard of mathematics.

So mathematics is not based on the laws of nature ?...Even the so called imaginary component of complex variables is applied widely in the area of solid mechanics. If mathematics is not based on Natural laws, then they wont be applicable to Physics or applications based on Physics.

nature is based on the laws of mathematics.
no. nature is not based on the "laws" of mathematics. mathematics (it's understanding) is constricted by the laws of nature.

my 2 cents: try explaining biology with the laws of physics and math... see whether one can derive it from its first principles....clearly we need a new kind of math!

Schrödinger's what is life is a great book to read.

i agree with you. time and again we have run into "limitations" be it schroedinger (heisenberg uncertainty) or godel's theorems. godel's theorems are a classic introduction to the limits of logic or any logical system. clearly we need more (that can "logically" never come). paradoxes are an example -- they exist in language or logic but not in nature (because it is a fault of the logical system)!

caveat: bw or max can weigh in more with authority. i say this because i may be wrong ("my" understanding has limitations, ha ha!) and their word would be gospel truth as far as i am concerned.

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