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C-M synthesis by Jalaluddin......

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Post by Vakavaka Pakapaka Sun May 07, 2017 8:12 am

.....Looks like Salim Jahamgir was like Pappu - his mother was Portuguese Christian (C) and father, a central Asian Muslim (M) (Pappu's grand-father was a Parsi and mother, an Italian). Was Jodha Bai a myth???.....

http://indianexpress.com/article/research/jehangirs-mom-was-portuguese-christian-maybe-jodha-bhai-never-existed-new-book-4644797/

Vakavaka Pakapaka

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Post by Guest Sun May 07, 2017 8:59 am

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:.....Looks like Salim Jahamgir was like Pappu - his mother was Portuguese Christian (C) and father, a central Asian Muslim (M) (Pappu's grand-father was a Parsi and mother, an Italian). Was Jodha Bai a myth???.....

http://indianexpress.com/article/research/jehangirs-mom-was-portuguese-christian-maybe-jodha-bhai-never-existed-new-book-4644797/

this Luis de Assis Correia is either a low grade historian, or else he is on the pay roll of the chaddis. Consider this:

1. The most noteworthy document of Akbar’s reign, the Akbarnama written by Abul Fazl, makes no mention about her, nor is her existence acknowledged in the other great Mughal source, Al Badauni’s Muntakhab-ut-Tawarakh. “Given the strenuous relations between the Mughals and Portuguese, they would never dare to say that Akbar had a Christian wife,” says Correia.

--> This tenuous argument may be applicable to Abul Fazl's Akbarnama. It is not applicable to Badauni's Muntakhab-ut-Tawarakh which was written in private and published after Akbar's death. Badauni is extremely critical of Akbar for a peculiar reason: Badauni believed that Akbar had ceased to be a muslim. Badauni writes  that Akbar would only drink Ganges water, and that Akbar would pray to God facing the rising Sun (following the advise of Birbal that the Sun ought to be venerated since without the Sun no life is possible) instead of facing Mecca. Badaoni also writes that Akbar would sleep with his head facing the rising sun and his feet facing Mecca. Badauni says Akbar would chant sanskrit mantras which he had learnt from hindus. Badauni criticizes Akbar's decision to open wine shops from which anyone could purchase wine for medical reasons (as long as they had a doctor's prescription).

Badauni disliked Akbar, and the feeling was mutual. "No sword can cut the jugular vein of his narrow-mindedness", Akbar is reported to have said of Badauni.

So the reason given by Correia about the silence of Badauni on this Portuguese woman is clearly spurious. There is no reason to believe that Badauni did not dare to write about this Portuguese woman because of strenuous relations between Akbar and the Portugese. Given Badauni's excoriation of Akbar in his private memoirs (containing the claim that Akbar had ceased to be a muslim), Badauni was clearly not intimidated by Akbar and not bothered about Akbar's reputation.

2. The only documents that do contain evidence of Akbar’s marriage to Mascarenhas are those written in Dutch and French, which Correia has used extensively to substantiate his claim. As per him, the English too would never wanted to acknowledge a union between the Mughal ruler and the Portuguese, given the fact that the Portuguese were trading rivals of the English during this period and such an alliance would definitely be seen as hindrance to their economic interests.

--> Another tenuous and highly speculative argument offered without any supporting evidence. Just because the English were trading rivals with the Portuguese is no reason for them not to take note of the fact that Akbar had a Muslim wife.

3. With respect to Jodha Bai, I have not studied her history, but I will point out that there is a palace named after her in Fatehpur Sikri which was the Mughal capital for many years during the reign of Akbar. It is foolish to assume that this palace is named after Jodhabai just because some obscure British writer mentions her.

4. Yes, Jahangir was partial towards the Christian missionaries who hoped to convert him, and yes, he was also partial towards Christianity. But all this is also true for Akbar. Akbar had allowed the jesuits to build a chapel in Fatehpur Sikri, and to make converts to their religion. Akbar personally visited the chapel subsequently and the jesuits noted that he worshipped the shrine of Jesus in three ways, the hindu, muslim, and christian way of worship. And then he said "God ought to be venerated in every way."

See these books for more info on the above:

1. https://www.amazon.com/Akbar-Jesuits-Account-Missions-2015-02-09/dp/B01K0RR9VK/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1494165511&sr=8-1&keywords=akbar+and+the+jesuits

2. https://www.amazon.com/Jahangir-Jesuits-Account-Benedict-Mission/dp/1138867713/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1494165534&sr=1-1&keywords=jahangir+and+the+jesuits

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Post by Guest Sun May 07, 2017 9:28 am

Rashmun wrote:
Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:.....Looks like Salim Jahamgir was like Pappu - his mother was Portuguese Christian (C) and father, a central Asian Muslim (M) (Pappu's grand-father was a Parsi and mother, an Italian). Was Jodha Bai a myth???.....

http://indianexpress.com/article/research/jehangirs-mom-was-portuguese-christian-maybe-jodha-bhai-never-existed-new-book-4644797/

this Luis de Assis Correia is either a low grade historian, or else he is on the pay roll of the chaddis. Consider this:

1. The most noteworthy document of Akbar’s reign, the Akbarnama written by Abul Fazl, makes no mention about her, nor is her existence acknowledged in the other great Mughal source, Al Badauni’s Muntakhab-ut-Tawarakh. “Given the strenuous relations between the Mughals and Portuguese, they would never dare to say that Akbar had a Christian wife,” says Correia.

--> This tenuous argument may be applicable to Abul Fazl's Akbarnama. It is not applicable to Badauni's Muntakhab-ut-Tawarakh which was written in private and published after Akbar's death. Badauni is extremely critical of Akbar for a peculiar reason: Badauni believed that Akbar had ceased to be a muslim. Badauni writes  that Akbar would only drink Ganges water, and that Akbar would pray to God facing the rising Sun (following the advise of Birbal that the Sun ought to be venerated since without the Sun no life is possible) instead of facing Mecca. Badaoni also writes that Akbar would sleep with his head facing the rising sun and his feet facing Mecca. Badauni says Akbar would chant sanskrit mantras which he had learnt from hindus. Badauni criticizes Akbar's decision to open wine shops from which anyone could purchase wine for medical reasons (as long as they had a doctor's prescription).

Badauni disliked Akbar, and the feeling was mutual. "No sword can cut the jugular vein of his narrow-mindedness", Akbar is reported to have said of Badauni.

So the reason given by Correia about the silence of Badauni on this Portuguese woman is clearly spurious. There is no reason to believe  that Badauni did not dare to write about this Portuguese woman because of strenuous relations between Akbar and the Portugese. Given Badauni's excoriation of Akbar in his private memoirs (containing the claim that Akbar had ceased to be a muslim), Badauni was clearly not intimidated by Akbar and not bothered about Akbar's reputation.

2. The only documents that do contain evidence of Akbar’s marriage to Mascarenhas are those written in Dutch and French, which Correia has used extensively to substantiate his claim. As per him, the English too would never wanted to acknowledge a union between the Mughal ruler and the Portuguese, given the fact that the Portuguese were trading rivals of the English during this period and such an alliance would definitely be seen as hindrance to their economic interests.

--> Another tenuous and highly speculative argument offered without any supporting evidence. Just because the English were trading rivals with the Portuguese is no reason for them not to take note of the fact that Akbar had a Muslim Portuguese wife.

3. With respect to Jodha Bai, I have not studied her history, but I will point out that there is a palace named after her in Fatehpur Sikri which  was the Mughal capital for many years during the reign of Akbar. It is foolish to assume that this palace is named after Jodhabai just because some obscure British writer mentions her.

4. Yes, Jahangir was partial towards the Christian missionaries who hoped to convert him, and yes, he was also partial towards Christianity. But all this is also true for Akbar. Akbar had allowed the jesuits to build a chapel in Fatehpur Sikri, and to make converts to their religion.  Akbar personally visited the chapel subsequently and the jesuits noted that he worshipped the shrine of Jesus in three ways, the hindu, muslim, and christian way of worship. And then he said "God ought to be venerated in every way."

See these books for more info on the above:

1. https://www.amazon.com/Akbar-Jesuits-Account-Missions-2015-02-09/dp/B01K0RR9VK/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1494165511&sr=8-1&keywords=akbar+and+the+jesuits

2. https://www.amazon.com/Jahangir-Jesuits-Account-Benedict-Mission/dp/1138867713/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1494165534&sr=1-1&keywords=jahangir+and+the+jesuits

*corrected*

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Post by SomeProfile Tue May 09, 2017 2:17 pm

C-M synthesis by Jalaluddin......  Stuff-on-scouts-head-1

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Post by silvermani Tue May 09, 2017 5:07 pm

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:.....Looks like Salim Jahamgir was like Pappu - his mother was Portuguese Christian (C) and father, a central Asian Muslim (M) (Pappu's grand-father was a Parsi and mother, an Italian). Was Jodha Bai a myth???.....

http://indianexpress.com/article/research/jehangirs-mom-was-portuguese-christian-maybe-jodha-bhai-never-existed-new-book-4644797/
Great find, VP saar. Very interesting.
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