Bihar: Patna High Court Judge behaves like a street thug

by Guest Sun Jan 22, 2012 4:11 am

http://www.dnaindia.com/videos/1639376

Sad to see a high court judge behaving like a street thug. Reprimand is not enough, this guy deserves harsher punishment.

The language shown in the video, coming from a sitting high court judge, is shocking.

by MulaiAzhagi Sun Jan 22, 2012 11:49 am

===> When the vice president of the most powerful and developed nation was not ashamed to say "fuck yourself'' to a senator, why do we expect more decorum from a judge in the most backward state of a backward country?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/04/23/dick-cheney-patrick-leahy-fuck-yourself_n_549100.html

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Sun Jan 22, 2012 1:25 pm

Rashmun wrote:http://www.dnaindia.com/videos/1639376

Sad to see a high court judge behaving like a street thug. Reprimand is not enough, this guy deserves harsher punishment.

The language shown in the video, coming from a sitting high court judge, is shocking.

When street thugs are made judges based on quota system, you can expect them to remain thugs. The basic character is set in the first 25 years.

Jai Quota system.

by Guest Sun Jan 22, 2012 2:09 pm

MulaiAzhagi wrote:===> When the vice president of the most powerful and developed nation was not ashamed to say "fuck yourself'' to a senator, why do we expect more decorum from a judge in the most backward state of a backward country?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/04/23/dick-cheney-patrick-leahy-fuck-yourself_n_549100.html

the VP of the most developed nation did not resort to physical violence; he only confined himself to verbal abuse. this guy actually went ahead and manhandled the airline staff.

by Guest Sun Jan 22, 2012 2:16 pm

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:
Rashmun wrote:http://www.dnaindia.com/videos/1639376

Sad to see a high court judge behaving like a street thug. Reprimand is not enough, this guy deserves harsher punishment.

The language shown in the video, coming from a sitting high court judge, is shocking.

When street thugs are made judges based on quota system, you can expect them to remain thugs. The basic character is set in the first 25 years.

Jai Quota system.

i am glad that we are in agreement over something.

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Sun Jan 22, 2012 2:58 pm

Rashmun wrote:
Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:

When street thugs are made judges based on quota system, you can expect them to remain thugs. The basic character is set in the first 25 years.

Jai Quota system.

i am glad that we are in agreement over something.

I know what you are thinking....But you are wrong....

by charvaka Sun Jan 22, 2012 3:51 pm

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:When street thugs are made judges based on quota system, you can expect them to remain thugs. The basic character is set in the first 25 years.

Jai Quota system.

Saamiyaar, let me gently remind you to read the article before you give in to the urge to pass judgment. The name of the judge is PC Verma. This particular thug's name is associated with a non-quota "upper" caste. I hope your error is because of ignorance of India north of Tamil Nadu.

Blaming the quota system for this is like blaming EU farm subsidies for the Packers' loss to the Giants last week.

by charvaka Sun Jan 22, 2012 3:52 pm

Rashmun wrote:
Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:
Rashmun wrote:http://www.dnaindia.com/videos/1639376

Sad to see a high court judge behaving like a street thug. Reprimand is not enough, this guy deserves harsher punishment.

The language shown in the video, coming from a sitting high court judge, is shocking.

When street thugs are made judges based on quota system, you can expect them to remain thugs. The basic character is set in the first 25 years.

Jai Quota system.

i am glad that we are in agreement over something.

Uppili knows nothing about India north of the TN-AP border, but you should know better. Oh well.

by Guest Sun Jan 22, 2012 4:22 pm

charvaka wrote:
Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:When street thugs are made judges based on quota system, you can expect them to remain thugs. The basic character is set in the first 25 years.

Jai Quota system.
Saamiyaar, let me gently remind you to read the article before you give in to the urge to pass judgment. The name of the judge is PC Verma. This particular thug's name is associated with a non-quota "upper" caste. I hope your error is because of ignorance of India north of Tamil Nadu.

Blaming the quota system for this is like blaming EU farm subsidies for the Packers' loss to the Giants last week.

--> the point is that caste and religion (and also gender) considerations are given to the appointment of judges; the process is not strictly based on merit as it should be.

--> the person in this case, Verma, is a kayastha. In UP and Bihar (and perhaps other states), there is such a thing as the Kayastha clique in the legal system.

--> In the case of Tamil Nadu (and perhaps other states), even deserving brahmin lawyers have sometimes been rejected for judgeship for one and only reason: they were brahmins.

by charvaka Sun Jan 22, 2012 5:18 pm

Rashmun wrote:

--> the person in this case, Verma, is a kayastha. In UP and Bihar (and perhaps other states), there is such a thing as the Kayastha clique in the legal system.

So an "upper" caste has a stranglehold on the system although they have no quota. "Upper"caste people without merit are being appointed. This is an excellent argument for caste-based reservations. Thank you for advancing it.

by Guest Sun Jan 22, 2012 5:32 pm

charvaka wrote:
Rashmun wrote:

--> the person in this case, Verma, is a kayastha. In UP and Bihar (and perhaps other states), there is such a thing as the Kayastha clique in the legal system.

So an "upper" caste has a stranglehold on the system although they have no quota. "Upper"caste people without merit are being appointed. This is an excellent argument for caste-based reservations. Thank you for advancing it.

--> Looks like you are determined to misunderstand me. I am only saying that caste and religion (and gender) considerations are sometimes given to the appointment of judges. This is applicable not just to upper caste hindus (including kayasthas) but also to dalit, OBC, and female candidates for judgeship. Undeserving people sometimes get appointed because of extraneous considerations, while deserving people sometimes get rejected because of the same reason.

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Sun Jan 22, 2012 6:35 pm

charvaka wrote:
Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:When street thugs are made judges based on quota system, you can expect them to remain thugs. The basic character is set in the first 25 years.

Jai Quota system.
Saamiyaar, let me gently remind you to read the article before you give in to the urge to pass judgment. The name of the judge is PC Verma. This particular thug's name is associated with a non-quota "upper" caste. I hope your error is because of ignorance of India north of Tamil Nadu.

Blaming the quota system for this is like blaming EU farm subsidies for the Packers' loss to the Giants last week.

The upper caste babus are learning that goondaism is the only way to survive and to follow the new behavioral guidelines and new tradition set by the modern quota Raj.

by charvaka Sun Jan 22, 2012 7:46 pm

Rashmun wrote:
charvaka wrote:
Rashmun wrote:

--> the person in this case, Verma, is a kayastha. In UP and Bihar (and perhaps other states), there is such a thing as the Kayastha clique in the legal system.

So an "upper" caste has a stranglehold on the system although they have no quota. "Upper"caste people without merit are being appointed. This is an excellent argument for caste-based reservations. Thank you for advancing it.

--> Looks like you are determined to misunderstand me. I am only saying that caste and religion (and gender) considerations are sometimes given to the appointment of judges. This is applicable not just to upper caste hindus (including kayasthas) but also to dalit, OBC, and female candidates for judgeship. Undeserving people sometimes get appointed because of extraneous considerations, while deserving people sometimes get rejected because of the same reason.

So how does this Kayastha clique work again?

by charvaka Sun Jan 22, 2012 8:03 pm

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:
charvaka wrote:
Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:When street thugs are made judges based on quota system, you can expect them to remain thugs. The basic character is set in the first 25 years.

Jai Quota system.
Saamiyaar, let me gently remind you to read the article before you give in to the urge to pass judgment. The name of the judge is PC Verma. This particular thug's name is associated with a non-quota "upper" caste. I hope your error is because of ignorance of India north of Tamil Nadu.

Blaming the quota system for this is like blaming EU farm subsidies for the Packers' loss to the Giants last week.

The upper caste babus are learning that goondaism is the only way to survive and to follow the new behavioral guidelines and new tradition set by the modern quota Raj.

Yes, India used to be devoid of goondaism, and dharmam used to walk on all its four legs before "the modern quota Raj."

by Propagandhi711 Sun Jan 22, 2012 8:19 pm

the upper caste babus are still suffering from long term civilizational trauma afflicted by the muslim invaders. not their fault. it's PTSD. uppili, I got your back buddy.

by Guest Sun Jan 22, 2012 8:42 pm

charvaka wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
charvaka wrote:
Rashmun wrote:

--> the person in this case, Verma, is a kayastha. In UP and Bihar (and perhaps other states), there is such a thing as the Kayastha clique in the legal system.

So an "upper" caste has a stranglehold on the system although they have no quota. "Upper"caste people without merit are being appointed. This is an excellent argument for caste-based reservations. Thank you for advancing it.

--> Looks like you are determined to misunderstand me. I am only saying that caste and religion (and gender) considerations are sometimes given to the appointment of judges. This is applicable not just to upper caste hindus (including kayasthas) but also to dalit, OBC, and female candidates for judgeship. Undeserving people sometimes get appointed because of extraneous considerations, while deserving people sometimes get rejected because of the same reason.
So how does this Kayastha clique work again?

--> kind of like how the reddy and kamma cliques work in AP.

by MaxEntropy_Man Sun Jan 22, 2012 8:49 pm

Propagandhi711 wrote:the upper caste babus are still suffering from long term civilizational trauma afflicted by the muslim invaders. not their fault. it's PTSD. uppili, I got your back buddy.

corrected: the northindian upper caste babus are still suffering from long term civilizational
trauma afflicted by the muslim invaders. not their fault. it's PTSD.

by Propagandhi711 Sun Jan 22, 2012 8:56 pm

you shoulda corrected "afflicted" but yeah..

by Guest Sun Jan 22, 2012 9:01 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Propagandhi711 wrote:the upper caste babus are still suffering from long term civilizational trauma afflicted by the muslim invaders. not their fault. it's PTSD. uppili, I got your back buddy.

corrected: the northindian upper caste babus are still suffering from long term civilizational
trauma afflicted by the muslim invaders. not their fault. it's PTSD.

--> Max, is this an example of southindian PTSD:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88gtinB3YnM

by Guest Sun Jan 22, 2012 9:14 pm

Rashmun wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Propagandhi711 wrote:the upper caste babus are still suffering from long term civilizational trauma afflicted by the muslim invaders. not their fault. it's PTSD. uppili, I got your back buddy.

corrected: the northindian upper caste babus are still suffering from long term civilizational
trauma afflicted by the muslim invaders. not their fault. it's PTSD.

--> Max, is this an example of southindian PTSD:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88gtinB3YnM

--> here is another example of the Maxian PTSD:

http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2011-11-02/india/30349702_1_judges-india-s-h-kapadia-madras-hc

--> i understand that this dalit judge has serious corruption allegations against him, hence all this ridiculous drama (about brother judges deliberately touching him, etc.) to somehow draw attention away from the allegations against him:

In his petition, the judge said, "... at one of the marriage
celebrations in Chennai where one of my brother judges, who was seated
to the right side of me, crossed over his leg deliberately touching mine
and on the second occasion at the Republic Day celebrations, the same
judge again seated next to me and slyly removed the name slip which was
attached to the arm of my chair with a string and stuck it to the bottom
of his right leg where it got crumpled."
Attempts to instigate
are repeatedly mentioned by Justice Karnan. "On another public occasion
when we brother judges congregated once again for a public celebration,
one of the brother judges behind the row of mine kept on shaking my
chair repeatedly with the intention to annoy me," he said.

According to Justice Karnan, his refusal to be part of a group or
coordinated consultations on cases was not liked by some judges who
expected him to conform to the unwritten code. He said the objective
behind such behaviour was to "reduce (his) role to subjugation".
In a serious charge, the judge said 70 lawyers "encouraged and financed"
by a few judges would assemble on the fifth floor of the HC during
court hours in an inebriated state and would try to instigate him, and
some of them would even gather in the corridor outside his room with the
same objective.

by MulaiAzhagi Sun Jan 22, 2012 9:17 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
corrected: the northindian upper caste babus are still suffering from long term civilizational
trauma afflicted by the muslim invaders. not their fault. it's PTSD.

===> What makes you think that SI Hindus would have fared better if they had been invaded for centuries by Muslim invaders and had lived under brutal tyraanical Mughal rule for six centuries?

There may not have been any Hindus left in SI. All those great temples like Madurai Meenakshi Amman temple would have been reduced to rubble.

by MaxEntropy_Man Sun Jan 22, 2012 9:19 pm

MulaiAzhagi wrote:
===> What makes you think that SI Hindus would have fared better if they had been invaded for centuries by Muslim invaders and had lived under brutal tyraanical Mughal rule for six centuries?

i don't think that. i'm just glad that my ancestors were not raped and pillaged by muslim invaders leaving behind permanent psychological scars in my ancestors' and my psyche. i got lucky in the rape and pillage sweepstakes.

by Guest Sun Jan 22, 2012 9:21 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
MulaiAzhagi wrote:
===> What makes you think that SI Hindus would have fared better if they had been invaded for centuries by Muslim invaders and had lived under brutal tyraanical Mughal rule for six centuries?

i don't think that. i'm just glad that my ancestors were not raped and pillaged by muslim invaders leaving behind permanent psychological scars in my ancestors' and my psyche. i got lucky.

--> what about the destruction of Vijayanagar? Its sad to see you forming strong opinions with poor knowledge of history.

by MulaiAzhagi Sun Jan 22, 2012 9:22 pm

===>

Rashmun,

The Dalits in TN suffer are meted out horrible treatment by caste hindus and sometimes upper caste Christians.

There was a case of a dalit made to eat excrement by an upper caste Christian.

I posted the video here under the title 'caste prejuidice across religions'.

by Guest Sun Jan 22, 2012 9:24 pm

MulaiAzhagi wrote:===>

Rashmun,

The Dalits in TN suffer are meted out horrible treatment by caste hindus and sometimes upper caste Christians.

There was a case of a dalit made to eat excrement by an upper caste Christian.

I posted the video here under the title 'caste prejuidice across religions'.

--> one can understand villagers behaving like this, but not high court judges. and look at the complaints of that dalit judge. he is upset because one of his brother judges touched his leg!

by Guest Sun Jan 22, 2012 9:27 pm

Rashmun wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
MulaiAzhagi wrote:
===> What makes you think that SI Hindus would have fared better if they had been invaded for centuries by Muslim invaders and had lived under brutal tyraanical Mughal rule for six centuries?

i don't think that. i'm just glad that my ancestors were not raped and pillaged by muslim invaders leaving behind permanent psychological scars in my ancestors' and my psyche. i got lucky.

--> what about the destruction of Vijayanagar? Its sad to see you forming strong opinions with poor knowledge of history.

Bihar: Patna High Court Judge behaves like a street thug The%20Empire%20that%20Vanished2

by Guest Sun Jan 22, 2012 9:46 pm

From Will Durant's 'Our Oriental Heritage':

In one day all this power and luxury were destroyed. Slowly the conquering Moslems had made their way south; now the sultans of Bijapur, Ahmadnagar, Golkonda and Bidar united their forces to reduce this last stronghold of the native Hindu kings. Their combined armies met Rama Raja's half-million men at Talikota; the superior numbers of the attackers prevailed; Rama Raja was captured and beheaded in the sight of his followers, and these, losing courage, fled. Nearly a hundred thousand of them were slain in the retreat, until all the streams were colored with their blood.

The conquering troops plundered the wealthy capital, and found the booty so abundant "that every private man in the allied army became rich in gold, jewels, effects, tents, arms, horses and slaves." For five months the plunder continued: the victors slaughtered the helpless inhabitants in indiscriminate butchery, emptied the stores and shops, smashed the temples and palaces, and labored at great pains to destroy all the statuary and painting in the city; then they went through the streets with flaming torches, and set fire to all that would burn. When at last they retired, Vijayanagar was as completely ruined as if an earthquake had visited it and left not a stone upon a stone. It was a destruction ferocious and absolute, typifying that terrible Moslem conquest of India which had begun a thousand years before, and was now complete.

by Guest Sun Jan 22, 2012 9:49 pm

Rashmun wrote:From Will Durant's 'Our Oriental Heritage':

In one day all this power and luxury were destroyed. Slowly the conquering Moslems had made their way south; now the sultans of Bijapur, Ahmadnagar, Golkonda and Bidar united their forces to reduce this last stronghold of the native Hindu kings. Their combined armies met Rama Raja's half-million men at Talikota; the superior numbers of the attackers prevailed; Rama Raja was captured and beheaded in the sight of his followers, and these, losing courage, fled. Nearly a hundred thousand of them were slain in the retreat, until all the streams were colored with their blood.

The conquering troops plundered the wealthy capital, and found the booty so abundant "that every private man in the allied army became rich in gold, jewels, effects, tents, arms, horses and slaves." For five months the plunder continued: the victors slaughtered the helpless inhabitants in indiscriminate butchery, emptied the stores and shops, smashed the temples and palaces, and labored at great pains to destroy all the statuary and painting in the city; then they went through the streets with flaming torches, and set fire to all that would burn. When at last they retired, Vijayanagar was as completely ruined as if an earthquake had visited it and left not a stone upon a stone. It was a destruction ferocious and absolute, typifying that terrible Moslem conquest of India which had begun a thousand years before, and was now complete.

--> Strangely enough, the conquerors of Vijayanagar (Bijapur, Golkonda, Ahmednagar, etc.) were themselves wiped out not much later by the Mughals. In retrospect, they would have been better off allying themselves with Vijayanagar against the Mughals.

by charvaka Sun Jan 22, 2012 10:10 pm

The historical difference between the Muslim conquests in the north and the south was this. In the south, the first Muslim conquest was met with a rapid unification of the Hindu political landscape in opposition to the invaders, first under the Musunuri Nayakas of Andhra and then under the banner of Vijayanagara. When the Delhi sultanate's armies invaded the south under Malik Kafur, they were pushed back within a generation and the foundations for Vijayanagara were laid. Later, when the Bahmani confederacy destroyed Vijayanagara, they could not hold those territories but Hindu rulers who had earlier paid tribute to Vijayanagara regained their power. The only places in southern India that Muslim rulers had a firm hold on were the northern portions of Andhra Pradesh and Karnataka. The cultural centers of the south, unlike those of the north, did not undergo a centuries-long, often brutal Muslim occupation.

In the north, this unification of opposition did not happen. When the first invasions came in the 8th century, the northwest was politically fragmented and political Islam took root without getting pushed back. This is in contrast to how northern India had reacted to the Greek invasion under Alexander; that invasion sparked the unification of much of northern Indian under the Mauryan banner. Political opposition to the Muslim rulers in the north was never united, with the Muslim rulers settling and making alliances with some Hindu rulers. The Prithivirajs and Hemus never coalesced enough support around them.

If European their armies had not arrived in India when they did, a Hindu pushback may well have coalesced in the north, thanks to Aurangzeb's disastrous policies. The Marathas rose against the Mughals south of the Vindhyas, but they held vast territories in the north by the time the East India Company won in Palashi. Undisturbed by outsiders, they might well have established a lasting empire spanning most of northern India.

by charvaka Sun Jan 22, 2012 10:18 pm

Rashmun wrote:
charvaka wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
charvaka wrote:
Rashmun wrote:

--> the person in this case, Verma, is a kayastha. In UP and Bihar (and perhaps other states), there is such a thing as the Kayastha clique in the legal system.

So an "upper" caste has a stranglehold on the system although they have no quota. "Upper"caste people without merit are being appointed. This is an excellent argument for caste-based reservations. Thank you for advancing it.

--> Looks like you are determined to misunderstand me. I am only saying that caste and religion (and gender) considerations are sometimes given to the appointment of judges. This is applicable not just to upper caste hindus (including kayasthas) but also to dalit, OBC, and female candidates for judgeship. Undeserving people sometimes get appointed because of extraneous considerations, while deserving people sometimes get rejected because of the same reason.
So how does this Kayastha clique work again?

--> kind of like how the reddy and kamma cliques work in AP.

Oh, in that case, that is a good argument for caste-based reservations. Thanks for clarifying.

by MaxEntropy_Man Sun Jan 22, 2012 10:22 pm

charvaka wrote:The historical difference between the Muslim conquests in the north and the south was this.

the islamic history of kerala and TN also has the additional feature which does not involve conquest at all but trading ties. in fact the trading history is distinct and older than the conquest in the north. google the history of the mApiLLAs and marakkAyars.

by Guest Sun Jan 22, 2012 11:02 pm

charvaka wrote:The historical difference between the Muslim conquests in the north and the south was this. In the south, the first Muslim conquest was met with a rapid unification of the Hindu political landscape in opposition to the invaders, first under the Musunuri Nayakas of Andhra and then under the banner of Vijayanagara. When the Delhi sultanate's armies invaded the south under Malik Kafur, they were pushed back within a generation and the foundations for Vijayanagara were laid. Later, when the Bahmani confederacy destroyed Vijayanagara, they could not hold those territories but Hindu rulers who had earlier paid tribute to Vijayanagara regained their power. The only places in southern India that Muslim rulers had a firm hold on were the northern portions of Andhra Pradesh and Karnataka. The cultural centers of the south, unlike those of the north, did not undergo a centuries-long, often brutal Muslim occupation.

--> I dispute your words which i have highlighted. My understanding is that the Bahmani rulers (of Golkonda, Bijapur, etc.) were not able to hold on to the territories they had conquered because of only one reason: they were wiped out by the Mughals. The process had started during the time of Akbar and by the time Aurangzeb died, most of South India was a part of the Mughal empire.

--> On Aurangzeb's death, the mughal governors of provinces distant from Delhi declared independence. One of these governors was the first Nizam of Hyderabad. The territory occupied by the Nizams was clearly a significant portion of the Vijayanagara empire. And in the past, you have claimed (from what i recollect--please correct me if i am wrong) that the Nizams were brutal and despotic.

charvaka wrote:In the north, this unification of opposition did not happen. When the first invasions came in the 8th century, the northwest was politically fragmented and political Islam took root without getting pushed back. This is in contrast to how northern India had reacted to the Greek invasion under Alexander; that invasion sparked the unification of much of northern Indian under the Mauryan banner. Political opposition to the Muslim rulers in the north was never united, with the Muslim rulers settling and making alliances with some Hindu rulers. The Prithivirajs and Hemus never coalesced enough support around them.

--> I sometimes wonder whether about the weak resistance to the early muslim invaders and i come up with a few tentative reasons:
1. prevalence of caste system which led to internal divisions among the people. It is possible that the evils of the caste system (including things like 'untouchability') had become more atrocious by the time of the early muslim invaders than at the time of Alexander. Even with respect to Alexander, it has been said that the strongest resistance to his army came from tribal collectives (sanghas) than from traditional feudal kingdoms.

2. The great popularity of the Hindu Vedanta philosophy (and by this i mean the Advaita Vedanta of Adi Sankara) and also of Budhism and Jainism which preached a certain passivity and acceptance and views like 'life is unkillable and individuality is unreal' and so forth. With respect to Budhism, 'the world is ultimately unreal' view is not the view of Gautam Budha, but it is the view of the Mahayana Budhists who had become the dominant Budhist sect at the time of the early muslim invasions. It is also the view of the Advaita Vedantists.

Could this partly explain why Mohammad Bakhtiar--an early muslim invader--was
able to drive away the aged laksmanasena from his capital navadvipa
(nadiya) by a sudden raid of no more than eighteen horsemen? (the same
mohammad bakhtiar attacking tribal areas in north-east india with 10,000
picked horsemen barely managed to return with all but a hundred of his
army wiped out.)

It should also be pointed out that prior to the mughals, all muslim dynasties in North India lasted for an average of a few decades at most. Periodically, new muslim invaders would come and kick out the incumbents. Like how Babur kicked out (and killed) Sultan Ibrahim Lodhi.

I think also that the religious angle is overemphasized. For instance Timur(Tamerlane) conquered and ransacked Delhi and then went back to his central asian homeland with the loot. But prior to this he had conquered and ransacked Baghdad. (And after the sacking of Delhi, he had proceeded for another conquest towards China, but died on the way. )Clearly, it was more about the loot and the wealth than about religion.

charvaka wrote:If European their armies had not arrived in India when they did, a Hindu pushback may well have coalesced in the north, thanks to Aurangzeb's disastrous policies. The Marathas rose against the Mughals south of the Vindhyas, but they held vast territories in the north by the time the East India Company won in Palashi. Undisturbed by outsiders, they might well have established a lasting empire spanning most of northern India.

--> By the time, the Europeans arrived, muslims in India had become Indianized: they should therefore be considered Indians. Even at the time of Vijayanagar, Rama Raya (the last great king of Vijayanagar) was partnering with certain Bahamani rulers against other Bahamani rulers (prior to all of them ganging up against him). Indeed, Rama Raya as a young man had served as an army officer in an army of one of the Bahamani rulers. (He became king because he married Krishanadeva Raya's daughter as you know.)

--> It should be remembered that the 1857 war of independence was fought under the banner of the Mughal Emperor. Even though the Mughal emperor was no longer powerful but such was the prestige of the mughal empire that Indians from all parts of India participated in the fight under this banner. This would not have been the case if the Mughals had been oppressors. Sure, Aurangzeb was communal, but he was an exception.

by Guest Sun Jan 22, 2012 11:06 pm

charvaka wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
charvaka wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
charvaka wrote:

So an "upper" caste has a stranglehold on the system although they have no quota. "Upper"caste people without merit are being appointed. This is an excellent argument for caste-based reservations. Thank you for advancing it.

--> Looks like you are determined to misunderstand me. I am only saying that caste and religion (and gender) considerations are sometimes given to the appointment of judges. This is applicable not just to upper caste hindus (including kayasthas) but also to dalit, OBC, and female candidates for judgeship. Undeserving people sometimes get appointed because of extraneous considerations, while deserving people sometimes get rejected because of the same reason.
So how does this Kayastha clique work again?

--> kind of like how the reddy and kamma cliques work in AP.
Oh, in that case, that is a good argument for caste-based reservations. Thanks for clarifying.

-->Thanks for clarifying that you would like these caste based cliques to be perpetuated indefinitely.

by Guest Sun Jan 22, 2012 11:09 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
charvaka wrote:The historical difference between the Muslim conquests in the north and the south was this.

the islamic history of kerala and TN also has the additional feature which does not involve conquest at all but trading ties. in fact the trading history is distinct and older than the conquest in the north. google the history of the mApiLLAs and marakkAyars.

Were modern Kerala and TN part of the Vijayanagara empire or not? If they were indeed a part of the Vijayanagar empire than it so happens that they were conquered by the Bahamani rulers after the Battle of Talikota.

by charvaka Sun Jan 22, 2012 11:13 pm

Rashmun wrote:Thanks for clarifying that you would like these caste based cliques to be perpetuated indefinitely.

Public policy is not about what one would wish for in an ideal world. It is about what is appropriate in the imperfect world we live in. In an ideal world, there would be no castes. In the real world, "upper" castes have had these cliques that helped them capture a disproportionate share of power for many centuries, and you have testified that those cliques continue to exist. I wish they didn't!

by Guest Sun Jan 22, 2012 11:22 pm

charvaka wrote:
Rashmun wrote:Thanks for clarifying that you would like these caste based cliques to be perpetuated indefinitely.
Public policy is not about what one would wish for in an ideal world. It is about what is appropriate in the imperfect world we live in. In an ideal world, there would be no castes. In the real world, "upper" castes have had these cliques that helped them capture a disproportionate share of power for many centuries, and you have testified that those cliques continue to exist. I wish they didn't!

--> Caste based reservations will only perpetuate the cliques. They are not the answer to the problem. Furthermore, caste based reservations result in 'reverse discrimination'. All kinds of discriminations need to be opposed including reverse discrimination.

--> The only permanent solution to the destruction of the caste based cliques is inter caste marriages which will inevitably start taking place in greater numbers with the passage of time.

by charvaka Sun Jan 22, 2012 11:26 pm

Rashmun wrote:
charvaka wrote:Later, when the Bahmani confederacy destroyed Vijayanagara, they could not hold those territories but Hindu rulers who had earlier paid tribute to Vijayanagara regained their power.

--> I dispute your words which i have highlighted. My understanding is that the Bahmani rulers (of Golkonda, Bijapur, etc.) were not able to hold on to the territories they had conquered because of only one reason: they were wiped out by the Mughals. The process had started during the time of Akbar and by the time Aurangzeb died, most of South India was a part of the Mughal empire.

Read my words carefully. I do not speculate about the reasons for the Bahmanis' inability to hold on to Vijayanagara territory. I am just pointing out that they failed to do so. The result is what I am highlighting -- the lack of a prolonged occupation of the cultural heartlands of southern India.

Rashmun wrote:On Aurangzeb's death, the mughal governors of provinces distant from Delhi declared independence. One of these governors was the first Nizam of Hyderabad. The territory occupied by the Nizams was clearly a significant portion of the Vijayanagara empire. And in the past, you have claimed (from what i recollect--please correct me if i am wrong) that the Nizams were brutal and despotic.

Correct, and resentment for the Nizam's despotism ran high amongst his Hindu subjects. But as I pointed out, his territory did not encompass the cutural heartlands of southern India.

Rashmun wrote:1. prevalence of caste system which led to internal divisions among the people. It is possible that the evils of the caste system (including things like 'untouchability') had become more atrocious by the time of the early muslim invaders than at the time of Alexander. Even with respect to Alexander, it has been said that the strongest resistance to his army came from tribal collectives (sanghas) than from traditional feudal kingdoms.

The caste system was prevalent in all its evil splendor in the south as well, AFAIK. Or are you suggesting that the caste system was not as harsh in the south as it was in the north?

Rashmun wrote:2. The great popularity of the Hindu Vedanta philosophy (and by this i mean the Advaita Vedanta of Adi Sankara) and also of Budhism and Jainism which preached a certain passivity and acceptance and views like 'life is unkillable and individuality is unreal' and so forth. With respect to Budhism, 'the world is ultimately unreal' view is not the view of Gautam Budha, but it is the view of the Mahayana Budhists who had become the dominant Budhist sect at the time of the early muslim invasions. It is also the view of the Advaita Vedantists.

Again, advaita vedanta was popular in the south as well; after all, Adi Shankara came from the south.

Rashmun wrote:It should also be pointed out that prior to the mughals, all muslim dynasties in North India lasted for an average of a few decades at most. Periodically, new muslim invaders would come and kick out the incumbents. Like how Babur kicked out (and killed) Sultan Ibrahim Lodhi.

Power changed from one Muslim ruling family to another, but much of the Indo-Gangetic plain was ruled by Muslims for over 500 years.

Rashmun wrote:--> By the time, the Europeans arrived, muslims in India had become Indianized: they should therefore be considered Indians.

Yes, but the Maratha ascendancy was not anti-Islam as much as it was anti-Mughal (thanks to Aurangzeb). The practical result of the rise of the Marathas was the decline of the Mughal empire. If the Third Battle of Panipat had gone a different way, the Mughal Empire may well have been abolished a hundred years before the British eventually did that job.

by charvaka Sun Jan 22, 2012 11:28 pm

Rashmun wrote:The only permanent solution to the destruction of the caste based cliques is inter caste marriages which will inevitably start taking place in greater numbers with the passage of time.

I hope the caste system is destroyed through inter-caste marriages, and I wholeheartedly support the abolition of reservations when that comes to pass. But not until then. Let us not put the cart before the horse, by advocating the elimination of the temporary workaround for a social problem before the social problem itself disappears.

by MaxEntropy_Man Sun Jan 22, 2012 11:30 pm

charvaka wrote:
Rashmun wrote:The only permanent solution to the destruction of the caste based cliques is inter caste marriages which will inevitably start taking place in greater numbers with the passage of time.
I hope the caste system is destroyed through inter-caste marriages, and I wholeheartedly support the abolition of reservations when that comes to pass. But not until then. Let us not put the cart before the horse, by advocating the elimination of the temporary workaround for a social problem before the social problem itself disappears.

you are out of touch with reality in places like TN.

by charvaka Sun Jan 22, 2012 11:31 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
charvaka wrote:
Rashmun wrote:The only permanent solution to the destruction of the caste based cliques is inter caste marriages which will inevitably start taking place in greater numbers with the passage of time.
I hope the caste system is destroyed through inter-caste marriages, and I wholeheartedly support the abolition of reservations when that comes to pass. But not until then. Let us not put the cart before the horse, by advocating the elimination of the temporary workaround for a social problem before the social problem itself disappears.

you are out of touch with reality in places like TN.

How so?

by MaxEntropy_Man Sun Jan 22, 2012 11:37 pm

don't have time to get into this today, but does an effective reservation rate of 80% or more make any sense to you?

by Guest Sun Jan 22, 2012 11:38 pm

Charvaka wrote:
Rashmun wrote:1. prevalence of caste system which led to internal divisions among the people. It is possible that the evils of the caste system (including things like 'untouchability') had become more atrocious by the time of the early muslim invaders than at the time of Alexander. Even with respect to Alexander, it has been said that the strongest resistance to his army came from tribal collectives (sanghas) than from traditional feudal kingdoms.
The caste system was prevalent in all its evil splendor in the south as well, AFAIK. Or are you suggesting that the caste system was not as harsh in the south as it was in the north?

--> In this context, the focus is on North India because North India was acting as a buffer region protecting South India from the early attacks by muslim invaders.

Charvaka wrote:
Rashmun wrote:2. The great popularity of the Hindu Vedanta philosophy (and by this i mean the Advaita Vedanta of Adi Sankara) and also of Budhism and Jainism which preached a certain passivity and acceptance and views like 'life is unkillable and individuality is unreal' and so forth. With respect to Budhism, 'the world is ultimately unreal' view is not the view of Gautam Budha, but it is the view of the Mahayana Budhists who had become the dominant Budhist sect at the time of the early muslim invasions. It is also the view of the Advaita Vedantists.
Again, advaita vedanta was popular in the south as well; after all, Adi Shankara came from the south.

--> In this context, the focus is on North India because North India was
acting as a buffer region protecting South India from the early attacks
by muslim invaders.

by charvaka Sun Jan 22, 2012 11:40 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:don't have time to get into this today, but does an effective reservation rate of 80% or more make any sense to you?

No it does not. I think the system in TN is broken. I like the rules the Supreme Court laid down capping reservations at 50% and excluding the creamy layer from any reservations.

by Guest Mon Jan 23, 2012 3:55 pm

charvaka wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:don't have time to get into this today, but does an effective reservation rate of 80% or more make any sense to you?
No it does not. I think the system in TN is broken. I like the rules the Supreme Court laid down capping reservations at 50% and excluding the creamy layer from any reservations.

--> it was a nine judge bench which gave that decision about allowing OBCs to be given caste based reservations. But one should note that there were dissenting judges in that case who had given a dissenting minority judgement opposing caste based reservations for OBCs. Even in the case of the majority decision, one or two judges supporting the majority view had said that there should be no reservation for OBCs in areas related to science and technology. In many ways, that case is reminiscent of the Bush vs Gore case in the U.S. Supreme Court.

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