North India needs to resist imposition of Hindi

by FluteHolder Tue Aug 01, 2017 9:18 pm

http://www.thehindu.com/thread/arts-culture-society/north-india-needs-to-resist-imposition-of-hindi/article19401960.ece?homepage=true

There are a bevy of languages spoken in different pockets of the country's northern regions that are fallaciously subsumed under — as dialects of — Hindi. Hindi, as it is assumed to exist, is really the language of Delhi and surrounding urban centres.

Acceptance of local languages will enable creation of material in the ‘true’ mother tongue. Eventually, the effect will be positive. The false identity of Hindi sub-nationalism ought to be done away with. It is an idea that has outlived its purpose.

by Ponniyin Selvan Wed Aug 02, 2017 8:18 am

FluteHolder wrote:http://www.thehindu.com/thread/arts-culture-society/north-india-needs-to-resist-imposition-of-hindi/article19401960.ece?homepage=true

There are a bevy of languages spoken in different pockets of the country's northern regions that are fallaciously subsumed under — as dialects of — Hindi. Hindi, as it is assumed to exist, is really the language of Delhi and surrounding urban centres.

Acceptance of local languages will enable creation of material in the ‘true’ mother tongue. Eventually, the effect will be positive. The false identity of Hindi sub-nationalism ought to be done away with. It is an idea that has outlived its purpose.

Yes, Hindi has killed or is killing many languages of North India.

It is a big conspiracy to take a language spoken in and around Delhi and make all other different languages of North India as dialects of Hindi. Around 50 different languages are subsumed as Hindi to pump up the number of speakers.

Knowledgeable folks cannot be fooled anymore.

by southindian Wed Aug 02, 2017 10:25 am

Ponniyin Selvan wrote:
FluteHolder wrote:http://www.thehindu.com/thread/arts-culture-society/north-india-needs-to-resist-imposition-of-hindi/article19401960.ece?homepage=true

There are a bevy of languages spoken in different pockets of the country's northern regions that are fallaciously subsumed under — as dialects of — Hindi. Hindi, as it is assumed to exist, is really the language of Delhi and surrounding urban centres.

Acceptance of local languages will enable creation of material in the ‘true’ mother tongue. Eventually, the effect will be positive. The false identity of Hindi sub-nationalism ought to be done away with. It is an idea that has outlived its purpose.

Yes, Hindi has killed or is killing many languages of North India.

It is a big conspiracy to take a language spoken in and around Delhi and make all other different languages of North India as dialects of Hindi. Around 50 different languages are subsumed as Hindi to pump up the number of speakers.

Knowledgeable folks cannot be fooled anymore.

Funny, but the language we are writing in has killed more languages in the world than any other. But again English gives you food on table and jobs, so no worries opposing English.

I have never seen anyone thumping virtual chests on how English is destroying local culture, local language and their identity. Never Smile

Yes, it's easier to go after Hindi and helps in window dressing protest. Smile

Only if Tamil, Kannada can provide jobs and bring in the dough, they could easily replace English and then no cause of protest either for any language.

PS: Knowledgeable folks.... whatever... hypocrites

by Ponniyin Selvan Wed Aug 02, 2017 11:36 am

What is your point?.

"English has killed many languages or is killing many languages, so it is ok for Hindi to kill many languages as well. "

Sorry, We know that English came in as a colonizer's language and still retains the position. If you care to read, our demand is to make all the languages as official languages of the Indian Union just like EU.

But thanks for admitting that Hindi is another colonial language and India is nothing but the continuation of English colonialism along with Hindi colonialism after 1947.

It is unfortunate that various North Indian languages have died or dying at the hands of Hindi. What about you?. What is your mother tongue?. Do you think it will survive in the future?. Don't you feel it is a loss?.

by southindian Wed Aug 02, 2017 11:40 am

Yes, English is killing most languages in India and in the world and my mother tongue is destroyed by English every day.

by Ponniyin Selvan Wed Aug 02, 2017 11:43 am

southindian wrote:Yes, English is killing most languages in India and in the world and my mother tongue is destroyed by English every day.

Now, what is your mother tongue?.

Is it subsumed under Hindi and called as a dialect?.

by southindian Wed Aug 02, 2017 11:55 am

Ponniyin Selvan wrote:
southindian wrote:Yes, English is killing most languages in India and in the world and my mother tongue is destroyed by English every day.
Now, what is your mother tongue?.

Is it subsumed under Hindi and called as a dialect?.

Pick ANY language spoken in Southindia, Northindia, talk to a local and see the difference from 20 years ago. One can't have a conversation today in Kannada, Tamil or Gujarati without English. Pick ANY city in Southindia or Northindia.

by Ponniyin Selvan Wed Aug 02, 2017 12:03 pm

You are not answering my question since you know the fact that it is Hindi that is killing your mother tongue.

Even though English is killing all the languages slowly, at least we still have our identity left. But it is quite unfortunate that Hindi is not even allowing that liberty to other North Indian languages.

Why don't you come out in the open and say your mother tongue. Is it one of the 50 languages being killed by Hindi?.

by southindian Wed Aug 02, 2017 12:18 pm

Ponniyin Selvan wrote:You are not answering my question since you know the fact that it is Hindi that is killing your mother tongue.

Even though English is killing all the languages slowly, at least we still have our identity left. But it is quite unfortunate that Hindi is not even allowing that liberty to other North Indian languages.

Why don't you come out in the open and say your mother tongue. Is it one of the 50 languages being killed by Hindi?.

You assume a lot. About who is killing my mother tongue.

I know English is killing my mother tongue and all languages in India and other countries.

In conversation with urban, rural Indian today, the locals hardly speak synonyms from language/dialect, words from Tamil, Konkani or Oriya and instead use English words in conversation. Some urban towns areas have a sprinkling of local grammar left in conversation.

It indeed is unfortunate, Indians in India today cannot identify cultural erosions 'due to English'. Smile

Not that there's anything wrong with that. Bharatnatyam fusion is good too. Smile

Locals are more than happy to adopt that and still say they have their identity left. English gives them food and jobs, so they can't. They won't. Smile

by Ponniyin Selvan Wed Aug 02, 2017 9:07 pm

Why don't you come out with your mother tongue and prove my assumption is not true. ?

by Ponniyin Selvan Wed Aug 02, 2017 9:11 pm

I used to get angry on North Indians arguing with arrogance about "national language" , "rashtra bhasha" etc..etc.. but now realized that many of them have actually lost their languages due to continuous brainwashing.

They are ashamed to admit even their mother tongue and many of them even claim Hindi is their mother tongue whereas in reality it is Bhojpuri, Mythili, Angika etc... It is a pity.

by Idéfix Wed Aug 02, 2017 9:45 pm

We had a southern Indian poster on old CH who liked Hindi imposition and thought of it as a way of "integrating" India. That same deeply-flawed idea was successfully propagated in the north during colonial times by nationalists seeking to unify the country. Seventy years of government policy and Bollywood further damaged the linguistic diversity of the north.

by Vakavaka Pakapaka Wed Aug 02, 2017 9:59 pm

Idéfix wrote:We had a southern Indian poster on old CH who liked Hindi imposition and thought of it as a way of "integrating" India. That same deeply-flawed idea was successfully propagated in the north during colonial times by nationalists seeking to unify the country. Seventy years of government policy and Bollywood further damaged the linguistic diversity of the north.

Yeah. Not having one national language has several advantages. Different languages and the associated traditions will survive and the country will become more colorful.

by Ponniyin Selvan Thu Aug 03, 2017 12:37 am

Idéfix wrote:We had a southern Indian poster on old CH who liked Hindi imposition and thought of it as a way of "integrating" India. That same deeply-flawed idea was successfully propagated in the north during colonial times by nationalists seeking to unify the country. Seventy years of government policy and Bollywood further damaged the linguistic diversity of the north.

Yes, and they have been trying to replicate the same throughout India for the last 70 years using fraudulent means.

The real number of people who have Hindi as their mother tongue would be even less than those who have Bengali or Telugu has their mother tongue, I guess.

by southindian Thu Aug 03, 2017 11:43 am

Ponniyin Selvan wrote:Why don't you come out with your mother tongue and prove my assumption is not true. ?

What assumption?

by MaxEntropy_Man Fri Aug 04, 2017 7:44 am

I've heard of one theory that all the Northindian languages -- Hindi, Marathi, Gujarati, Bengali, Punjabi etc are just Prakrit variants that only got differentiated as separate languages in the last three or four or so centuries. In the time scale of Dravidian languages and the time they've had to evolve and become recognized as separate and distinct, that's a blink of an eye! So why privilege a particular recent Prakrit over so many others?

by Vakavaka Pakapaka Fri Aug 04, 2017 9:23 am

At a time when SI is doing much better than NI and BJP is trying to infiltrate into the South, whoever strategized to inject some hindi into SI is a fool. He is only making it hard for BJP to get votes in SI.

by Idéfix Fri Aug 04, 2017 9:48 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:I've heard of one theory that all the Northindian languages -- Hindi, Marathi, Gujarati, Bengali, Punjabi etc are just Prakrit variants that only got differentiated as separate languages in the last three or four or so centuries. In the time scale of Dravidian languages and the time they've had to evolve and become recognized as separate and distinct, that's a blink of an eye! So why privilege a particular recent Prakrit over so many others?

Do you remember the source for this? That sounds like too short of a timeframe for such a range of differentiation. My understanding is that there was a fair amount of distinction between languages like Awadhi and Maithili going back many centuries. As a fluent speaker of modern Hindi, I could easily understand Kabir but understood almost nothing of Surdas, although both lived about 500-600 years ago. So the differentiation between say Marathi and Khariboli, or Bhojpuri and Bengali, which are more pronounced today, would likely be rooted further back in history.

by MaxEntropy_Man Fri Aug 04, 2017 10:44 am

Idéfix wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:I've heard of one theory that all the Northindian languages -- Hindi, Marathi, Gujarati, Bengali, Punjabi etc are just Prakrit variants that only got differentiated as separate languages in the last three or four or so centuries. In the time scale of Dravidian languages and the time they've had to evolve and become recognized as separate and distinct, that's a blink of an eye! So why privilege a particular recent Prakrit over so many others?
Do you remember the source for this? That sounds like too short of a timeframe for such a range of differentiation. My understanding is that there was a fair amount of distinction between languages like Awadhi and Maithili going back many centuries. As a fluent speaker of modern Hindi, I could easily understand Kabir but understood almost nothing of Surdas, although both lived about 500-600 years ago. So the differentiation between say Marathi and Khariboli, or Bhojpuri and Bengali, which are more pronounced today, would likely be rooted further back in history.

Let me see if I can find a different. I remember reading in the same article that Bengali is older, but with marathi, Gujarati, and Hindi the differentiation occurred much more recently.

Not a definitive reference, but for now:
http://aboutworldlanguages.com/gujarati

I'll try to find a more well sourced reference. One thing that strikes me is that there is much deeper and more voluminous research on the linguistic evolution of Dravidian languages than on the modern descendants of Prakrit. The problem may well be the lack of well-dated literary texts.

by MaxEntropy_Man Fri Aug 04, 2017 10:54 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Idéfix wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:I've heard of one theory that all the Northindian languages -- Hindi, Marathi, Gujarati, Bengali, Punjabi etc are just Prakrit variants that only got differentiated as separate languages in the last three or four or so centuries. In the time scale of Dravidian languages and the time they've had to evolve and become recognized as separate and distinct, that's a blink of an eye! So why privilege a particular recent Prakrit over so many others?
Do you remember the source for this? That sounds like too short of a timeframe for such a range of differentiation. My understanding is that there was a fair amount of distinction between languages like Awadhi and Maithili going back many centuries. As a fluent speaker of modern Hindi, I could easily understand Kabir but understood almost nothing of Surdas, although both lived about 500-600 years ago. So the differentiation between say Marathi and Khariboli, or Bhojpuri and Bengali, which are more pronounced today, would likely be rooted further back in history.

Let me see if I can find ~~a different~~ the original article. I remember reading in the same article that Bengali is older, but with marathi, Gujarati, and Hindi the differentiation occurred much more recently.

Not a definitive reference, but for now:
http://aboutworldlanguages.com/gujarati

I'll try to find a more well sourced reference. One thing that strikes me is that there is much deeper and more voluminous research on the linguistic evolution of Dravidian languages than on the modern descendants of Prakrit. The problem may well be the lack of well-dated literary texts.

by Ponniyin Selvan Sat Aug 05, 2017 3:36 am

Leave alone the other languages Marathi, Bengali, Punjabi, Gujarati.. They are at least recognized as separate languages.

Hindi has killed or killing other diverse languages like Awadhi, Bagheli, Bhojpuri, Bundeli, Chhattisgarhi, Garhwali, Haryanawi, Kanauji, Kumayuni, Magahi, and Marwari..

Most likely the posters who are commenting for Hindi imposition belong to one of the above groups who have lost their languages. The following paragraph neatly explains how they lost their languages.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Hindi-language

"Nevertheless, the majority of speakers of these regional languages consider themselves to be speaking a Hindi dialect. Among other reasons, they note that these languages were grouped with Hindi by the British in an attempt to classify languages in the early days of British rule. Furthermore, Hindi (rather than one of the regional languages) was chosen as the medium of instruction at the elementary-school level. In large part as a result of this colonial policy, members of the urban middle class and educated villagers throughout the zone claim to be speakers of Hindi because the use of these regional languages or dialects in public venues—that is, outside the circle of family and close friends—is perceived as a sign of inadequate education. In other words, speaking standard Hindi gives as much status to people in this region as speaking English gives in the south of India; both are treated as languages of upward social mobility. Thus, people in search of new jobs, marriages, and the like must use standard Hindi in everyday communication. In many cases, young people now have only a passive knowledge of the regional languages. Particularly since the 1950s, the prevalence of mass media (radio, television, and films) and growing literacy have led to an increase in the number of native speakers of standard Hindi."

by MaxEntropy_Man Sat Aug 05, 2017 9:41 am

Why is there so little linguistic research on Marathi, Gujarati, Punjabi, and Hindi? Where are the Bhadriraju Krishnamurthis, the Kamil Zvelebils, and the Robert Caldwells of Gujarati linguistics?

If you search the existing linguistics research on the Indian subcontinent it's as if there is only Sanskrit and then the Dravidian languages. No scholar seems to have any interest in studying the linguistic evolution of the other languages. Strange!

by Idéfix Mon Aug 07, 2017 11:11 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:Why is there so little linguistic research on Marathi, Gujarati, Punjabi, and Hindi? Where are the Bhadriraju Krishnamurthis, the Kamil Zvelebils, and the Robert Caldwells of Gujarati linguistics?

If you search the existing linguistics research on the Indian subcontinent it's as if there is only Sanskrit and then the Dravidian languages. No scholar seems to have any interest in studying the linguistic evolution of the other languages. Strange!

Yeah, it is strange. Around the world, a lot of things about language are intensely politicized, and I suspect northern Indian politics and the fetishization of Hindi as "national language" contributes to this lack of research.

by Ponniyin Selvan Mon Aug 07, 2017 12:01 pm

Idéfix wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:Why is there so little linguistic research on Marathi, Gujarati, Punjabi, and Hindi? Where are the Bhadriraju Krishnamurthis, the Kamil Zvelebils, and the Robert Caldwells of Gujarati linguistics?

If you search the existing linguistics research on the Indian subcontinent it's as if there is only Sanskrit and then the Dravidian languages. No scholar seems to have any interest in studying the linguistic evolution of the other languages. Strange!
Yeah, it is strange. Around the world, a lot of things about language are intensely politicized, and I suspect northern Indian politics and the fetishization of Hindi as "national language" contributes to this lack of research.

With zero or close to zero commonality, if a lot of South Indians have been drinking the "koolaid" of national language, nationalism, patriotism etc.. till now it is no wonder a lot of North Indians have taken to buying this Hindi as their mother tongue argument.

Only now, being exposed via facts thru social media , A lot of folks are getting angry that they have been fooled by Hindians in the name of three language formula, rashtra bhasha etc...

by TruthSeeker Wed Aug 09, 2017 12:28 am

(-:

NIs who call ALL SIs as "Madrasis" are as ignorant as some of my SI friends here.

Travel more :-)

Come out of your wells, you medhaks - toads, frogs in the well!

Here is an exercise for your kind -

"Abbe Gaandu Saale, Sudhar Jaa!"

"You fkkin Asshole, get it right!"

Which of these 2 statements triggered these sentiments in your NARROW MINDED brain?

Indians esp. Older Indians are still getting over the fact that Indian language is CRASS, while a foreign English language is CLASS.

Do you belong to such a mindset?

I hope this mindset dies. Because in US, its not as prevalent as it is Brit controlled Asian countries.

Be proud of being an India, and knowing your mother tongue.

Do NOT be FOOLED into fighting WITHIN over a language. Is that what you learnt from the Brits, who divided and conquered us?

THINK!

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