Catamite Debauchery in Roman times

by doofus_maximus Thu Feb 02, 2012 11:26 am

It is not what Propa was looking forward to, i.e., homosexuality in Andhra or Telengana. I thought I would one-up Rashmun and post this for every one's education.

http://www.reddit.com/r/comics/comments/lzv3h/manly_as_fuck_nsfw/c2wz1ld

Worth mentioning from a
cultural perspective: Ancient Roman sexual mores were pretty interesting
when it comes to attitudes towards homosexuality. In fact, the term
itself - "homosexuality" - is somewhat anachronistic when Ancient Rome
(and Greece, which was even gayer) are concerned, as the sex of the
sexual partners was not important. Whether you were fucking a guy or a
girl was not an issue at all - it was who was in the dominant position that mattered.

There was absolutely no shame in fucking a slave boy, so long as you
were doing the fucking. If you were the fuckee (the one being
penetrated), you were putting yourself in the subservient position, and
that was considered extremely worthy of shame. Giving head was even
worse, since you were having your mouth fucked rather than your arse.
Men's mouths in Rome were made for making speeches or ordering troops,
not for being dick receptacles.

In fact, the very worst sexual activity you could perform in Ancient
Rome was actually cunnilingus - not only were you being subservient, but
you were being subservient to a woman. Jupiter help you. Funny
how this is now considered perfectly normal in the modern age, but
male-on-male shit stabbing is considered disgusting and degrading to so
many.

These days an obsession with sexual domination is considered a kink; in Ancient Rome it was the norm.

We know so much about these attitudes because they were outlined
rather neatly by poets and writers at the time. For example, Martial's Epigrams
frequently contain verses about sex, masturbation, and all that good
stuff. Since Epigrams were often aimed at people, many of his verses
deride his peers for their sexual preferences.

There was an entire subsection of vocabulary based on such matters -
Latin is an incredibly precise and specific language for many things,
but especially for obscene acts. Two of the most famous terms are in the
very first line of Catullus' Carmen 16,
which is voted up to Reddit's front page pretty much every 6 months
like clockwork as people come across it and are genuinely amazed that
Roman poets covered this kind of thing: pedicabo ("I will butt-fuck") and irrumabo ("I will face-fuck"). Both of these are seen as hideously degrading not because he's threatening to do it to a man, but because in both cases he's doing the penetrating - he's making the other guy his bitch.

Although Catullus 16 gets all the press, it's actually Catullus being
a bit of a wise arse: most of his poetry is much more flowery and far
less violent - he's putting it on, and it comes off as even more intense
because his poetry is usually more florid and witty rather
than so in your face (pun very much intended, fuck you I thought it was
funny). But Horace wrote far more disgusting things on a far more
regular basis, and although they often don't translate into English too
well, some of it is wonderfully graphic. One of my favourite ever lines
of Latin is from Horace's Epode 8: hietque turpis inter aridas natis / podex velut crudae bovis. Rough translation: "And your anus hangs between your arid buttocks like a slaughtered cow".

Back to sex, let's take a look at some of Martial's Epigrams as they're a fantastic source for this kind of thing. First example - Martial's Epigram II.28:

<blockquote>
rideto multum qui te, Sextille, cinaedum

dixerit et digitum porrigito medium.

sed nec pedico es nec tu, Sextille, fututor,

calda Vetustinae nec tibi bucca placet.

ex istis nihil es fateor, Sextille: quid ergo es?

nescio, sed tu scis res superesse duas.

</blockquote>

(My own shoddy) Translation:

<blockquote>
Sextillus, you laugh out loud at those who call you a sodomite (cinaedum), and you give them the middle finger. But you are neither a butt-fucker (pedico) nor a fucker of pussy (fututor),
nor does the hot mouth of Vetustina please you. I say that you are none
of these things, Sextillus: so what are you? I don't know, but you know
which two things are left.

</blockquote>

The gag here is that Sextillus is denying that he likes getting
penetrated, but since he isn't known to be 'the fucker', he can then
only be 'the fuckee'. In this case, the 'two things' Martial refers to
are Sextillus taking it in the mouth and up the jacksie.

(Vetustina is just a girl's name, it's implied she's a whore.)

Or how about Epigram II.56, addressed to Gallus, who was a common victim of Martial's awesome wit:

<blockquote>
gentibus in Libycis uxor tua, Galle, male audit

inmodicae foedo crimine auaritiae.

sed mera narrantur mendacia: non solet illa

accipere omnino. quid solet ergo? dare.

</blockquote>

Translation (once again rough, apologies. These kinds of things should be more readily available online):

<blockquote>
Gallus, among the Libyan people it is often heard that your wife is
greedy, which is a horrible crime. But they're merely telling lies:
she's not accustomed to taking anything. So what is she accustomed to?
Giving it.

</blockquote>

Again, the implication here is that he's being fucked by his wife (shameful!), rather than the other way around (player!).

One final example, this one is about as straightforward as you can get. Martial's Epigram III.71:

<blockquote>
mentula cum doleat puero, tibi, Naeuole, culus,

non sum diuinus, sed scio quid facias.

</blockquote>

Quick translation:

<blockquote>
The boy's cock is sore, Naevolus, and so's your butt. I'm no fortune teller, but I know what you're up to.

</blockquote>

This does not require explanation. It's 14 words of pure brilliance,
and as great as it comes out in English, it actually loses rather a lot
of its sting in translation.

So there you have it. Gender isn't important - whether it's a girl or
a boy, wife or a slave; as long as you're doing the fucking, you're OK.

Sorry for the long post. It's excessively rare that I run across something on Reddit that falls under my specialist subjects.

And by the by, if you ever want a closer look into Roman attitudes towards most things, Martial's Epigrams
are a fantastic place to start. So long as you have a commentary or
similar to explain the context surrounding them, you can learn more
about actual Roman attitudes and mores from his dirty verses than you
can from most text books.

tl;dr Just read it, you fucking cinaedi.

edit: well this has karma snowballed ridiculously. Thanks everyone
for your nice comments and upvotes. And thanks especially to
whatkindofdrugsdenny, who gifted me 12 months of Reddit Gold! What a
super awesome person. <3

For those that want to read more about Roman sexuality, I have in the
past used these four sources amongst many others, but these give a good
overview and they were very useful in researching certain topics:

M. Skinner - Sexuality in Rome and Ancient Greece
T. Hubbard - Homosexuality in Greece and Rome: A Sourcebook of Basic Documents
J.N. Adams - Latin Sexual Vocabulary (this is an excellent source for Latin swear words)
H. Beard - X-Treme Latin (mostly neologisms, sadly, but a few interesting quotes)

Also, the Wikipedia entry for Ancient Roman sexuality
is surprisingly detailed, and it seems as though it was written by
people better-versed in the matters than I am. There's plenty of stuff
on there I had no idea about, and I certainly can't find anything in
there that I'd disagree with.

edit 2: Since this got so popular, here's a few of my other favourite
epigrams. I'll keep them short and sweet. Apologies for hasty
translations.

VI.36:

<blockquote>
mentula tam magna est quantus tibi, Papyle, nasus,

ut possis, quotiens arrigis, olfacere.

</blockquote>

<blockquote>
Papylus, your dick is so big and your nose is so long, that when you get an erection, you can smell it.

</blockquote>

XII.20 (this one is pretty famous):

<blockquote>
quare non habeat, Fabulle, quaeris

uxorem Themison? habet sororem.

</blockquote>

<blockquote>
Fabullus, you ask why Themison doesn't have a wife. He has a sister.

</blockquote>

IV.48:

<blockquote>
percidi gaudes, percisus, Papyle, ploras:

cur, quae uis fieri, Papyle, facta doles?

paenitet obscenae pruriginis? an magis illud

fles, quod percidi, Papyle, desieris?

</blockquote>

<blockquote>
Papylus, you love getting fucked, but after you've been fucked, you
start crying: Papylus, why do you feel sorrow for what has been done,
once it has been done? Do you regret your obscene horniness? Or is it
rather, Papylus, that you're crying because you're not being fucked any
more?

</blockquote>

Hah. That one still cracks me up. It also beautifully enforces the
Roman sexual attitudes re: penetrator/penetrated. He's not crying out of
shame, he's crying because he wants more. Martial is such a delightful
bastard.

IX.69:

<blockquote>
cum futuis, Polycharme, soles in fine cacare.

cum pedicaris, quid, Polycharme, facis?

</blockquote>

<blockquote>
Polycharmus, when you fuck pussy, you usually take a shit afterwards. What do you do after you've been ass-fucked, Polycharmus?

</blockquote>

XI.30:

<blockquote>
os male causidicis et dicis olere poetis.

sed fellatori, Zoile, pejus olet.

</blockquote>

<blockquote>
You say that the mouths of lawyers and poets smell awful. But the mouth of a cocksucker smells even worse, Zoilus.

</blockquote>

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Thu Feb 02, 2012 1:29 pm

You can never one-up on Rashmunullah. For that, you should cut/paste passages from the SAME source/article over 4 or 5 posts to give the impression that others are unable to answer his posts and to cope up with the "Facts" he was showering upon us.

You need better training.

Catamite Debauchery in Roman times

Catamite Debauchery in Roman times

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