The temple entry and worship in the case of women

by Seva Lamberdar Mon Nov 12, 2018 9:11 am

The tradition of not entering a temple or take part in the community worship (puja) by menstruating women probably started long ago as women in general then did not have proper / reliable aids (safety pads etc. to take care of "fluids" and medicines etc. in case of pain / discomfort) to keep in check their menstruating condition from becoming a public spectacle which might cause embarrassment / discomfort to the menstruating woman and a distraction to others (men and women).

Naturally, the things are different now. There are reliable tools and medicines available to women these days which have made monthly periods to them like any other normal (painless and lacking discomfort) physical activity and part of feminine life, while also enabling them to freely take part in worship / puja and enter temples without the threat of discomfort / difficulty to themselves and distraction to others.

The change in the old attitude and practice of having menstruating women stay out of places of worship (including temples) is therefore long overdue, considering as well that the Mimamsa (the Vedic / Hindu philosophy Purva Mimamsa on rituals and traditions etc.) also advocates the immediate abandonment of practices, traditions, customs and rituals which are now obsolete, outdated and of no use (even detrimental to the society currently), in spite of the fact that they might have had some positive aspect long ago.

: Subhash C. Sharma

by Guest Mon Nov 12, 2018 10:32 am

https://such.forumotion.com/t46678-the-sabarimala-issue#249603

Seva ji, don’t preach. We women know what to do. We’ll do what feels comfortable for us. No one is putting any restrictions on us wrt this.
And don’t link this with the Sebarimala issue. Read more about the Sabarimala temple history, customs, traditions and rituals before even jumping in to give your lectures.

by Seva Lamberdar Tue Nov 13, 2018 1:38 pm

An example below (in Italics) on women entering first time (April 2016) a Hindu shrine / temple (Deot Siddh, H.P.) and worshiping and praying inside, which had never taken place previously.

Woman enters Baba Balaknath temple cave

A woman devotee with her two daughters entered the cave of Baba Balaknath temple at Deot Siddh in Hamirpur district of Himachal Pradesh and performed ‘puja’, breaking centuries old tradition of women not entering the cave.

Earlier, women would not enter the cave as Baba Balaknath believed to be an incarnation of Kartikeya, elder son of lord Shiva, is considered to be a bachelor and women used to offer worship at a platform few metres away from the cave.

But the temple authorities had clarified on April 16 that there was no bar on women entering the cave but in spite of that, women were not entering the cave and abiding by the age-old tradition.

The woman along with her two daughters entered the cave in the presence of priests and performed ‘puja’ on Saturday.-PTI

https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/other-states/woman-enters-baba-balaknath-temple-cave/article8574069.ece

by southindian Tue Nov 13, 2018 2:06 pm

Fluids, no-fluids who cares? Only idiots care about these.

Fluids are part of our bodies and why should women be banned from entering the temples at certain times?

On a side note, should men, women and children allowed to enter a temple if they have urine in their bodies? Smile

What's the legality of entering with poop in their bodies?

Also, how do temple authorities make sure that a man entering a temple haven't had sex a few minutes before he enters the temple?

by Guest Tue Nov 13, 2018 2:19 pm

Only morons who don’t get into why the restrictions came about blabber nonsense. This has nothing to do with discrimination against women or with their periods. It’s done for their own good. Here’s one of the reasons:

The temple entry and worship in the case of women Db9e3d10

The temple entry and worship in the case of women 077dfd10

by Seva Lamberdar Tue Nov 13, 2018 2:21 pm

southindian wrote:Fluids, no-fluids who cares? Only idiots care about these.

Fluids are part of our bodies and why should women be banned from entering the temples at certain times?

On a side note, should men, women and children allowed to enter a temple if they have urine in their bodies? What's the legality of entering with poop in their bodies?

Also, how do temple authorities make sure that a man entering a temple haven't had sex a few minutes before he enters the temple?

All good points and worth pondering.

by Guest Tue Nov 13, 2018 2:24 pm

This wasn’t inserted well previously in the previous post:

The temple entry and worship in the case of women 6bc7e910

by southindian Tue Nov 13, 2018 2:29 pm

Pentamma wrote:Only morons who don’t get into why the restrictions came about blabber nonsense. This has nothing to do with discrimination against women or with their periods. It’s done for their own good. Here’s one of the reasons:

Pure BS.

And they write in ENGLISH!!! So they are so-called educated... (Science and all) Smile

My illiterate mother can make more sense than these english speaking jerks.

by Guest Tue Nov 13, 2018 2:38 pm

It’s not without a reason that I called you a moron. You don’t have the brains to understand that.

Btw, let me give credits to those posts. These are
the responses of a couple of Keralites on youtube.

A trivia: Of the five judges on the panel, only one is a female judge. She is the one who voted down. She said that we should not tamper with the customs of the temple (goes on to show that women are more sensible than men)while the male judges overrode her judgment with some nonsense about women’s periods, discrimination and all, which isn’t the case.

by Guest Tue Nov 13, 2018 2:53 pm

Pentamma wrote:It’s not without a reason that I called you a moron. You don’t have the brains to understand that.

Btw, let me give credits to those posts. These are
the responses of a couple of Keralites on youtube.

A trivia: Of the five judges on the panel, only one is a female judge. She is the one who voted down. She said that we should not tamper with the customs of the temple (goes on to show that women are more sensible than men)while the male judges overrode her judgment with some nonsense about women’s periods, discrimination and all, which isn’t the case.

Men are too eager to showcase themselves as champions of women, fighing for their rights, against discrimination, periods, taboos and all, I guess. You guys can do much better if you back off. We are fine, thank you. We will fight our own battles.

There are some temples (7-8 in number) where men are not allowed. Only women and girls are allowed. Go fight for your rights to enter there and ask to end the discrimination.

by garam_kuta Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:04 pm

Governments imposing inter/cross religious practices by transposition, just to normalize it all to homogeneity, across the board among the believers is bound to cause unrest with negative consequences.

by southindian Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:06 pm

Pentamma wrote:It’s not without a reason that I called you a moron. You don’t have the brains to understand that.

Btw, let me give credits to those posts. These are
the responses of a couple of Keralites on youtube.

A trivia: Of the five judges on the panel, only one is a female judge. She is the one who voted down. She said that we should not tamper with the customs of the temple (goes on to show that women are more sensible than men)while the male judges overrode her judgment with some nonsense about women’s periods, discrimination and all, which isn’t the case.

Wow! LOL That's coming from a supreme leader Smile

You sound so much like that WH occupant a.k.a. Donald Trump. He puts down people the same way. No wonder Pussy-Grabber is adored by like minded people.

Couple of Keralites posting anywhere don't make scholars on anything. This is like, 'If Keralites wrote it then it over rules everything'. Funny! That's all.

Women or Men, there's a simple human understanding. All humans, men or women should be able to visit ANY temple, anywhere (North or South) and ANY time whenever they want. Period.

by MaxEntropy_Man Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:22 pm

A question -- what is the administrative structure of the Sabarimalai temple? Does anyone know? I have no dog in this fight, but I find it interesting. In the US, the government is not allowed to interfere with the policies inside a temple or a church so long as it doesn't violate any local or federal laws. For example, people cannot willy nilly enter the inner sanctum of a Mormon temple. However, it seems to me that the management of Hindu temples in Southern India is by a board which has some kind of a relationship with the local state governments, and the state governments often provide funding to the temples. And it seems like Christian and Muslim religious institutions are not organized in this way. This is probably one reason why the government thinks it has the legal authority to mess with Hindu temple policies and operations.

And to those arguing in support of the Supreme Court decision, I have a question. Hindus respect the idea that only the Brahmin priests conducting everyday religious functions are allowed in the sanctum-sanctorum, and the rest of the people are content to stand outside, pray, and receive blessings. This is true in both Southern Indian and Northern temples. Are you also in favor of changing this policy in support of a free for all policy for anyone to enter the sanctum-sanctorum? I am just curious.

by Guest Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:37 pm

garam_kuta wrote:Governments imposing inter/cross religious practices by transposition, just to normalize it all to homogeneity, across the board among the believers is bound to cause unrest with negative consequences.

Exactly!! Government should not meddle with the customs of religious places. People have their own belief systems. let them practice their own. As long as they are not harming anyone, leave them alone. If the practices are outdated and unfavorable, believers will refine and reform from within.

As in the case of Sabarimala, looks like only the commies, lefties, atheists and feminists seem to have a problem. They are bent on wiping out the age old indian customs and traditions. Not good. As with the british colonialits, they are trying to make you ashamed of your customs, tell you that they are outdated, barbaric, discriminatory and all. Anyone opposing them is looked upon as a dogmatic, regressive and a lowly miscreant. Sick of it!!

Tamilians did well fighting for jallikattu. It’s time to support Sabarimala.

by garam_kuta Tue Nov 13, 2018 4:25 pm

Pentamma wrote:
garam_kuta wrote:Governments imposing inter/cross religious practices by transposition, just to normalize it all to homogeneity, across the board among the believers is bound to cause unrest with negative consequences.
Exactly!! Government should not meddle with the customs of religious places. People have their own belief systems. let them practice their own. As long as they are not harming anyone, leave them alone. If the practices are outdated and unfavorable, believers will refine and reform from within.

As in the case of Sabarimala, looks like only the commies, lefties, atheists and feminists seem to have a problem. They are bent on wiping out the age old indian customs and traditions. Not good. As with the british colonialits, they are trying to make you ashamed of your customs, tell you that they are outdated, barbaric, discriminatory and all. Anyone opposing them is looked upon as a dogmatic, regressive and a lowly miscreant. Sick of it!!

Tamilians did well fighting for jallikattu. It’s time to support Sabarimala.

you couldn't be more right.

by Seva Lamberdar Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:01 am

Let me comment in the following on a number of responses in the above.

(1) Calling the Sabarimala shrine as purely a Tantric temple which supposedly requires its chief deity Lord Ayyappa’s brahamcharya (celibacy) to be ensured with male devotees’ help by keeping fertile age women (10-50 yrs.) out of the temple is an oxymoron, considering the Tantric practices have no taboos about men and women getting together socially and conjugally.

(2) To think that going against the Supreme Court now in trying to continue the outdated tradition of keeping fertile age female devotees from entering Sabarimala shrine to worship and pray inside will be easy and like going against the Supreme Court earlier while seeking to continue the old practice of “jallikattu”, in which several dozen men (even hundreds) get together, chase, intimidate and torture a lone bull, doesn’t sound very logical.

(3) Finally, let’s not that forget that there is no restriction on women (any age) entering the place of Hindu worship according to the Vedas. Moreover, the Bhagavad Gita (Ch. 9- V. 32) clearly indicates that God can be approached and prayed / worshiped by women.

by Guest Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:10 am

honestly, the only thing that keeps me irking about this issue is calling a 10 year old girl 'fertile' eeps. also, assuming a 50 year old is no longer seksual... maybe in earlier times they all were widowed by 50, who knows. Maybe the whole restriction came about coz if a married woman was made to practice celibacy for 41 days, then her man was made a celibate by default and how can a man be left celibate that long aiyo no! he will go to workers...

didn't mean to offend anyone here, and I do believe that the govt should not be interfering in temple matters. But unfortunately I ended up reading various reasons coming forth for this (women fertile; his beloved waiting for him; tantric energies; distraction to the lord - by a 10 year old?!!; distraction to other men - again by 10 year old?!! ... and the more I read, the lesser sense it makes. However, if people gonna be gung-ho, go ahead.
m2c.

by Seva Lamberdar Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:20 am

rasāsvāda wrote:honestly, the only thing that keeps me irking about this issue is calling a 10 year old girl 'fertile' eeps. also, assuming a 50 year old is no longer seksual... maybe in earlier times they all were widowed by 50, who knows. Maybe the whole restriction came about coz if a married woman was made to practice celibacy for 41 days, then her man was made a celibate by default and how can a man be left celibate that long aiyo no! he will go to workers...

didn't mean to offend anyone here, and I do believe that the govt should not be interfering in temple matters. But unfortunately I ended up reading various reasons coming forth for this (women fertile; his beloved waiting for him; tantric energies; distraction to the lord - by a 10 year old?!!; distraction to other men - again by 10 year old?!! ... and the more I read, the lesser sense it makes. However, if people gonna be gung-ho, go ahead.
m2c.

Just imagine someone (a grown-up man) these days "thinking", seeing and losing his brahamcharya over a 10 or 11 yr. old girl. He will soon branded as a pervert and might even end up in jail or mental asylum.

by southindian Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:45 am

Seva Lamberdar wrote:Let me comment in the following on a number of responses in the above.

(1) Calling the Sabarimala shrine as purely a Tantric temple which supposedly requires its chief deity Lord Ayyappa’s brahamcharya (celibacy) to be ensured with male devotees’ help by keeping fertile age women (10-50 yrs.) out of the temple is an oxymoron, considering the Tantric practices have no taboos about men and women getting together socially and conjugally.

(2) To think that going against the Supreme Court now in trying to continue the outdated tradition of keeping fertile age female devotees from entering Sabarimala shrine to worship and pray inside will be easy and like going against the Supreme Court earlier while seeking to continue the old practice of “jallikattu”, in which several dozen men (even hundreds) get together, chase, intimidate and torture a lone bull, doesn’t sound very logical.

(3) Finally, let’s not that forget that there is no restriction on women (any age) entering the place of Hindu worship according to the Vedas. Moreover, the Bhagavad Gita (Ch. 9- V. 32) clearly indicates that God can be approached and prayed / worshiped by women.

That was funny. Smile

Illiterate supporting argument for not letting women enter the temple? Fine!

So-called educated Indians supporting this tradition and not working with and supporting ones who are looking forward to change this? Priceless!

You have hit it right-on in (2) and (3) and I believe, there are many adults acting as 3 year olds on this and wanting to stick with their argument because of their ego.... But who can help them take blinders off their eyes?

by Guest Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:10 pm

Ayyappa is a 12 year old, btw. How hard is it for people to understand the following? What irks me is that north indians who know zilch about the culture and traditions of south india commenting on this. They probably are going by the equally ignorant, leftist and malicious media. Get
your ground and true facts straight.

The temple entry and worship in the case of women 5b507c10

by southindian Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:24 pm

LOL! Somebody.... a woman... wrote that above in English (?) and lives in 2018?

Similarly women of fertile age have a lot of energy, which when collides with the energy of the goddess, has harmful effects for both.

I had to re-read that without laughing. Does she also work at Bhabha Atomic Energy Center for Women?

If that God wants to be worshipped in 2018 and beyond then he needs to behave well around 10 to 50 year old women.

Don't ask a NorthIndian. Ask any Chinese, American, SouthIndian... or an Indian. Smile

It's the law.

by Guest Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:33 pm

southindian wrote:
If that God wants to be worshipped in 2018 and beyond then he needs to behave well around 10 to 50 year old women.

Wow! the kind of arrogance! You’ll pay for it.

by southindian Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:40 pm

Pentamma wrote:
southindian wrote:
If that God wants to be worshipped in 2018 and beyond then he needs to behave well around 10 to 50 year old women.
Wow! the kind of arrogance! You’ll pay for it.

I know I'll die soon... in a plane crash... or maybe die from Cancer. Smile

Or maybe in 5, 10, 20 or 30 years.

by southindian Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:23 pm

Pentamma wrote:
southindian wrote:
If that God wants to be worshipped in 2018 and beyond then he needs to behave well around 10 to 50 year old women.
Wow! the kind of arrogance! You’ll pay for it.

Seriously, if that God wants to play vengeance with me out of the 7 Billion people on earth, then don't you think I'm the lucky one. Smile

by Guest Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:30 pm

I grew up seeing people around doing the deeksha. The kind of self-descipline borne out the devotion and faith for the deity was very impressive. It changed people’s lives (I saw drunkards becoming teetotalers and people getting rid of their addictions and having more control and all. Just try staying off your smart phones for 41 days and see). Only such people were entering the shrine up until now. The energy levels there was something different, i heard. Just hearing the ‘swamiye saranam ayyappa’, said in the particular tone and expression used to give me goosebumps.

Look at the kind of respect these prople are showing for the deity now. Just imagine all these idiots going there and polluting the shrine.
And the knowall is giving speaches about the tantric practices. Tantra practices are supposed to be very powerful and intense and are not recommended for all, fyi.

If you have no respect for the deity, if you don’t believe in the customs and practices there and when it’s not harming you or anyone, why do you even bother? just to show off your ‘higher level of (warped) thinking’?
The ones who believe will go there fulfilling all the requirements and respecting the traditions of the place.

The ones who don’t believe needn’t even go there. Are are Ayyappa devotees going on killing spree hurting the unbelievers? No, right? So why do you even bother? As I said, is it to show off your ‘level of thinking’? If that is the case, you need to work on yourself.

Ps: May your thinking be limited to Trump, not Ayyappa.

by southindian Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:43 pm

Agree!
This is the biggest font-size here.
Smile

by Guest Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:47 pm

southindian wrote:Agree!
This is the biggest font-size here.

I should have had it in bold too.

Go bother about Trump and cry that he didn’t mention Hindus in his tweet. Boo hoo! Lol!

by southindian Wed Nov 14, 2018 2:10 pm

I agree (2 in a row).
Please repost in Bold
Smile

by Seva Lamberdar Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:56 pm

Pentamma wrote:

The same thing, forever young as a 12 yr. old boy ("naishtika" brahamchari perhaps, according to the above), about Baba Balaknath whose shrine-cave at Deot Siddh (H.P.) did not have women enter to pray and worship before, but they do now (since 2016), as I had posted the link in the above -- https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/other-states/woman-enters-baba-balaknath-temple-cave/article8574069.ece

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