Does Akbari secularism predate Akbar?

by Guest Sat Apr 07, 2012 12:00 pm

Amartya Sen had earlier spoken about the fact that the Indian secular state is based on the ideas of the mughal emperor Akbar.

Prof. Sen also believes that the Indian secular state is based on Emperor Akbar's ideas of secularism. “Emperor Akbar's radical departures in religious tolerance, his line of thinking that religion must not be denied to have a secular state and that tradition must be based on reason…one can imagine how revolutionary these ideas were in the 1590s.”

Prof. Sen concluded by firmly re-affirming his belief on the Indian secular state being based on Emperor Akbar's ideas. “Historians like Ramachandra Guha have issues with this… but this is my firm belief,” he quipped.

http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp-national/tp-newdelhi/article2722541.ece

in what follows, Sen clarifies the meaning of secularism as understood in the west, and secularism as understood in South Asia:

“The meaning of secularism in South Asia is very different from the West's understanding,” said Indian economist Amartya Sen at an event to commemorate Bangladesh at 40 last week. “In the West, it is understood as a person who is not religious or without religion. So if a state is secular it means it has nothing to do with religion. But in South Asia, if you say a state is secular, it means the state treats all religions equally.”

He spoke of how, earlier in that day, he had attended an event at the Bangla Academy to receive an award. There they opened the ceremony by reading a verse from the Quran, a verse from the Bible, and finally a verse from the Bhagavad Gita. “They treated all three religions equally,” the Nobel Laureate explained. “If there was a westerner at this event, they would not have described this as a secular event.”

Using the example of Akbar the Great, Amartya Sen relayed how the Mughal Emperor's own religious views did not interfere with showing respect for or awarding rights to followers of other religions. Though the tradition of Muslim kings marrying Hindu princesses was not uncommon before Akbar's time, the fact he treated the families of his wives, be they Muslim or Hindu, with equal respect and favour was unique. His administration included numerous Hindu landlords, courtiers and military generals and he granted lands and money for Hindu temples and Christian churches across India.

“Mahatma Gandhi,” Sen also added, “was deeply religious at a personal level but was deeply secular in terms of the state. So South Asia's secularism is synthesis, not just distance.”

http://www.thedailystar.net/magazine/2012/01/01/perspective.htm

by Guest Sat Apr 07, 2012 12:09 pm

I have been reading more and more about the Hindi poet Kabir and i was surprised to find the following in Vinay Dharwadker's book 'Kabir: The Weaver's Songs':

This is the secularism of the Kabir poets--but it is paradoxically a 'theological secularism'. In the modern period, we have come to view secularism as historically and conceptually possessing four basic orientations:
(a) a non-religious disposition...
(b) an a-religious disposition...
(c) an anti-religious disposition...
(d) a post-religious disposition...

Between the sixteenth and eighteenth centuries, however, the Kabir poets invented an astonishing fifth alternative. In the dissident conception of the secular, institutionalized religions--with their wealth, power, mediating structures and violent practices--determined what constitutes 'religion' and what is legitimately 'religious' in the human world...[They] stand outside the immense scaffolding of organized human religions and what they define as 'religious' doctrine and practice, and since the 'secular' is that which lies outside the the scope of the 'religious', God as such is entirely secular.

The consequence of this conception is that the process of attaining multi...is also a secular process.

-----

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Sat Apr 07, 2012 12:11 pm

[quote="Rashmun"]Amartya Sen had earlier spoken about the fact that the Indian secular state is based on the ideas of the mughal emperor Akbar.

Prof. Sen also believes that the Indian secular state is based on Emperor Akbar's ideas of secularism. “Emperor Akbar's radical departures in religious tolerance, his line of thinking that religion must not be denied to have a secular state and that tradition must be based on reason…one can imagine how revolutionary these ideas were in the 1590s.”

Prof. Sen concluded by firmly re-affirming his belief on the Indian secular state being based on Emperor Akbar's ideas. “Historians like Ramachandra Guha have issues with this… but this is my firm belief,” he quipped.

http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp-national/tp-newdelhi/article2722541.ece

If he had talked about Akbari economy, his words would have been more credible. His words on Akbari secularism is just as credible as your NI-SI synthesis blabberings.

by Guest Sat Apr 07, 2012 12:12 pm

in retrospect, despite their similarity in many ways, the major difference between Kabir secularism and Akbari secularism is that Kabir secularism has a certain contempt for all kinds of organized religions which Akbari secularism does not have. On this issue, i am with Kabir.

by Guest Sat Apr 07, 2012 12:13 pm

Rashmun wrote:I have been reading more and more about the Hindi poet Kabir and i was surprised to find the following in Vinay Dharwadker's book 'Kabir: The Weaver's Songs':

This is the secularism of the Kabir poets--but it is paradoxically a 'theological secularism'. In the modern period, we have come to view secularism as historically and conceptually possessing four basic orientations:
(a) a non-religious disposition...
(b) an a-religious disposition...
(c) an anti-religious disposition...
(d) a post-religious disposition...

Between the sixteenth and eighteenth centuries, however, the Kabir poets invented an astonishing fifth alternative. In the dissident conception of the secular, institutionalized religions--with their wealth, power, mediating structures and violent practices--determined what constitutes 'religion' and what is legitimately 'religious' in the human world...[They] stand outside the immense scaffolding of organized human religions and what they define as 'religious' doctrine and practice, and since the 'secular' is that which lies outside the the scope of the 'religious', God as such is entirely secular.

The consequence of this conception is that the process of attaining multi...is also a secular process.

-----

in retrospect, despite their similarity in many ways, the major difference between Kabir secularism and Akbari secularism is that Kabir secularism has a certain contempt for all kinds of organized religions which Akbari secularism does not have. On this issue, i am with Kabir.

by Guest Sat Apr 07, 2012 12:35 pm

Rashmun wrote:I have been reading more and more about the Hindi poet Kabir and i was surprised to find the following in Vinay Dharwadker's book 'Kabir: The Weaver's Songs':

This is the secularism of the Kabir poets--but it is paradoxically a 'theological secularism'. In the modern period, we have come to view secularism as historically and conceptually possessing four basic orientations:
(a) a non-religious disposition...
(b) an a-religious disposition...
(c) an anti-religious disposition...
(d) a post-religious disposition...

Between the sixteenth and eighteenth centuries, however, the Kabir poets invented an astonishing fifth alternative. In the dissident conception of the secular, institutionalized religions--with their wealth, power, mediating structures and violent practices--determined what constitutes 'religion' and what is legitimately 'religious' in the human world...[They] stand outside the immense scaffolding of organized human religions and what they define as 'religious' doctrine and practice, and since the 'secular' is that which lies outside the the scope of the 'religious', God as such is entirely secular.

The consequence of this conception is that the process of attaining mukti...is also a secular process.

-----

Dharwadker continues:
It is precisely such a secularism that makes both God and mukti completely accessible to anyone and everyone, regardless of caste, class, birth, gender, upbringing, status or rank, and that becomes indistinguishable from the deeply subversive egalitarianism and cosmopolitanism of the Kabir community.

Note: in the earlier post, i had misspelt 'mukti'.

by Guest Sun Apr 08, 2012 12:13 am

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:
If he had talked about Akbari economy, his words would have been more credible. His words on Akbari secularism is just as credible as your NI-SI synthesis blabberings.

amartya sen is also a philosopher. i think he jointly wrote a treatise with robert nozick (or worked on nozick's principles) relating to john rawls' "a theory of justice" (which is a seminal theory about a utopian state that is "just").

by charvaka Sun Apr 08, 2012 12:18 am

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:i think he jointly wrote a treatise with robert nozick (or worked on nozick's principles) relating to john rawls' "a theory of justice" (which is a seminal theory about a utopian state that is "just").

I didn't know this... I find the Rawlsian idea of the veil of ignorance very appealing. Will look up Sen's work in this area.

by Guest Sun Apr 08, 2012 12:21 am

you forgot to Wow...thanks me. i am very upset now and might change my opinion of gults.

by charvaka Sun Apr 08, 2012 12:26 am

Yes, what you call Akbari secularism predates Akbar. HiMu, the originator of Hindu-Muslim synthesis in the political sphere, was an earlier exemplar of that synthesis. I wrote a number of expert posts on this which I shall now furnish with suitable bolding and underlining as conclusive evidence of this.

https://such.forumotion.com/t4531-h-m-synthesis-hemu-at-the-helm-of-the-afghan-army

Hemu never made any religious distinctions. He even convinced Afghan
warriors, radical Islamists all of them, to call him Badshah and fight for his Hindu standard. Hemu was a firm believer in meritocracy and was probably the first secular king in medieval India.

***

https://such.forumotion.com/t4533-h-m-synthesis-hemu-and-cricket

As you know by now, my man crush on Hemu
is in full bloom. I did what I usually do in such circumstances: google
the object with topic keywords thrown in, and post the first few links.
Here is what I found when I googled "Hemu" and "cricket" together.
Enjoy.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/india/content/player/26179.html

Note that Hemu here played for a team called Hindus, hence proving the H-M synthesis.

***

https://such.forumotion.com/t4542-on-the-hindu-muslim-synthesis-threads#36407

Do you know anything about HiMu? It looks like HiMu (also spelled in
English as Hemu) was India's first secular king, according to a link
that I have already posted four times, and is thereby established as the
ultimate truth. It appears that HiMu was also for meritocracy, so he is
opposed to caste-based reservations. HiMu, by way of his name, is the
ultimate symbol of Hindu-Muslim synthesis. It is also possible that HiMu spent a large part of his life in Uttar Pradesh.

***

https://such.forumotion.com/t4534-h-m-synthesis-hemu-and-the-gold-standard

The very name Hemu can be pronounced quite similar to HiMu -- a word
formed from the first syllables of Hindu and Muslim. What better example
can you have of Hindu-Muslim synthesis, I say!

by charvaka Sun Apr 08, 2012 12:27 am

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:you forgot to Wow...thanks me. i am very upset now and might change my opinion of gults.

Wow... thanks for reminding me. I want you on my side. Is there anything I can do to make that happen?

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