Taste of Chennai

by Guest Mon Apr 30, 2012 6:22 am

http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/zaika-india-ka/video-story/230042?pfrom=home-simplysouth

by Guest Mon Apr 30, 2012 6:25 am

shakkar means sugar in tamil and that is what it also means in hindi. (cheeni = shakkar = sugar)

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Apr 30, 2012 7:03 am

there is no such word as shakkar in tamil. sugar is chakkarai (colloquial), charkarai (formal). the root word is probably shakkar which has a common etymological root with all indo-european languages - sugar, zucker, sucre etc.

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Apr 30, 2012 7:07 am

another sweetness related word is jaggery which is vellam in tamil and sounds nothing like gud in hindi.

by Another Brick Mon Apr 30, 2012 7:13 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:there is no such word as shakkar in tamil. sugar is chakkarai (colloquial), charkarai (formal). the root word is probably shakkar which has a common etymological root with all indo-european languages - sugar, zucker, sucre etc.

interesting.

what do you call pineapple in thamizh? it is called ananas in marathi and that word is taken as it is (from Portuguese?) by us.

by Guest Mon Apr 30, 2012 7:20 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:there is no such word as shakkar in tamil. sugar is chakkarai (colloquial), charkarai (formal). the root word is probably shakkar which has a common etymological root with all indo-european languages - sugar, zucker, sucre etc.

Perhaps the NI guy is mispronouncing it. did sound like shakkar-e-pongal to me. See 9:10 and also 10:20 in the video. The tamil guy seems to be saying shakara means sugar in 9:15 but maybe he is talking about the etymology of the word rather than the word itself.

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Apr 30, 2012 7:35 am

Another Brick wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:there is no such word as shakkar in tamil. sugar is chakkarai (colloquial), charkarai (formal). the root word is probably shakkar which has a common etymological root with all indo-european languages - sugar, zucker, sucre etc.

interesting.

what do you call pineapple in thamizh? it is called ananas in marathi and that word is taken as it is (from Portuguese?) by us.

annAsi pazham.

rashmun: i didn't watch your video, just responding your text.

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Apr 30, 2012 7:51 am

watch how this woman says it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIw5Gv2rcHU

rashmun -- you better watch how you say it. in the m.iyengar household they probably use a very different word for it. they don't call it chakkarai pongal, they call it akkArai vadisal. iyengars use very literary words and names for food items than the normal tamil populace. akkAram is a literary word for sugar, actually jaggery, and the word vadisal is a descriptive term for cooking by steaming or boiling, hence akkArai vadisal.

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Apr 30, 2012 8:03 am

in reality i have to say akkArai vadisal is slightly different than the usual chakkarai pongal, a bit runnier. so it's not exactly the same thing, but close enough.

by doofus_maximus Mon Apr 30, 2012 10:22 am

Another Brick wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:there is no such word as shakkar in tamil. sugar is chakkarai (colloquial), charkarai (formal). the root word is probably shakkar which has a common etymological root with all indo-european languages - sugar, zucker, sucre etc.

interesting.

what do you call pineapple in thamizh? it is called ananas in marathi and that word is taken as it is (from Portuguese?) by us.

In every language, pine apples are called with 'anana' derivatives, except English.
Taste of Chennai The-word-pineapple-in-different-languages

by Kayalvizhi Mon Apr 30, 2012 9:24 pm

pineapple is called poorthi sakkai in Tamil in some states.

by Guest Mon Apr 30, 2012 9:29 pm

In telugu:

Chakkera=sugar. Also called panchadhaara.

Bellam=jaggery

Anaasa pandu= pineapple

by Kris Mon Apr 30, 2012 10:43 pm

Rashmun wrote:shakkar means sugar in tamil and that is what it also means in hindi. (cheeni = shakkar = sugar)

>>>Since there are similar terms in many languages for sugar, may be derived from the same root in some proto indo european tongue. Or maybe a word that spread quickly thru trading- since sugar is a common commodity. Rice is arisi to tamil and arroz in spanish, for nstance.

by Idéfix Tue May 01, 2012 12:51 am

The interesting question about the various names for sugar is the common Hindi name, chInI. Why is sugar called "Chinese" in Hindi? Sugarcane is indigenous to India, not to China. In Sanskrit, Farsi and Arabic, the three languages that most influenced Hindi, the words for sugar are sharkara, shakkar and sukkar respectively. Where did chInI come from?

According to Wikipedia, sugar was domesticated in India and was unknown to the west of India prior to the Arab conquests of northwestern India. So they took the substance to the west and introduced it there, along with the name that they borrowed from Indian languages. In the case of this word, a Semitic language served as a bridge between the Indo-European languages of India, Persia and Europe.

by Guest Tue May 01, 2012 1:00 am

panini press wrote:The interesting question about the various names for sugar is the common Hindi name, chInI. Why is sugar called "Chinese" in Hindi? Sugarcane is indigenous to India, not to China.

is sugarcane really indigenous to india? as per this article, even shakkar came from the chinese "sha-che." cheeni comes from porcelain (cheeni mitti) for pure sugar looks like porcelain.

by Kris Tue May 01, 2012 1:02 am

The interesting question about the various names for sugar is the common Hindi name, chInI. Why is sugar called "Chinese" in Hindi?

>>>>Perhaps yet another of those sweet nothings engendered by the hindi-chini bhai -bhai era? Smile

Sugarcane is indigenous to India, not to China. In Sanskrit, Farsi and Arabic, the three languages that most influenced Hindi, the words for sugar are sharkara, shakkar and sukkar respectively. Where did chInI come from?

>>>Looks like sanskrit is the root language then. With the 'sha' sound, it makes sense now

by Idéfix Tue May 01, 2012 1:17 am

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:
panini press wrote:The interesting question about the various names for sugar is the common Hindi name, chInI. Why is sugar called "Chinese" in Hindi? Sugarcane is indigenous to India, not to China.

is sugarcane really indigenous to india?

Sugarcane is a tropical plant, so an Indian origin is more likely than a Chinese origin. I remember reading in Guns, Germs and Steel that it was certainly domesticated in New Guinea, which is also tropical. Wikipedia references an article (see reference 8 in the Wikipedia article on sugarcane -- sorry can't post links for a few more days) that says:

The center of origin is probably in northern India where forms with the smallest chromosome numbers occur. S. robustum is found along river banks in New Guinea and some of its adjacent islands and is indigenous to the area. S. officinarum (or noble cane) most likely originated in New Guinea. This cane is only suited for tropical regions with favorable climate and soil. S. barberi probably originated in India.

It is possible that sharkara became sha-che in Chinese rather than the other way around. This is the problem with linguistics -- both sides of an exchange can claim credit for being the inventor.

Huzefa Kapasi wrote: cheeni comes from porcelain (cheeni mitti) for pure sugar looks like porcelain.

That is fascinating! I read somewhere that sharkara in Sanskrit means "sand" -- a different take on the texture of sugar. My suspicion is powdered sugar is a recent phenomenon, a product of the industrial age. For much of history, I suspect sugar did not look white at all (until animal charcoal was employed for decolorizing the crystals) -- it used to be coarse and granulated crystals, not a fine powder.

by Idéfix Tue May 01, 2012 1:18 am

Kris wrote:>>>>Perhaps yet another of those sweet nothings engendered by the hindi-chini bhai -bhai era?

Haha, I was trying my best to not bring that up.

by Guest Tue May 01, 2012 1:34 am

panini press wrote:It is possible that sharkara became sha-che in Chinese rather than the other way around. This is the problem with linguistics -- both sides of an exchange can claim credit for being the inventor.

yes, quite likely.

by Idéfix Tue May 01, 2012 1:38 am

panini press wrote:My suspicion is powdered sugar is a recent phenomenon, a product of the industrial age. For much of history, I suspect sugar did not look white at all (until animal charcoal was employed for decolorizing the crystals) -- it used to be coarse and granulated crystals, not a fine powder.

I didn't write that clearly. Fine whitish powder would make sense to compare in texture and color to porcelain clay, while coarse golden granules would be more comparable to sand. Perhaps chInI is a relatively recent word for sugar that became more popular than the older shakkar?

by Guest Tue May 01, 2012 1:41 am

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:
panini press wrote:It is possible that sharkara became sha-che in Chinese rather than the other way around. This is the problem with linguistics -- both sides of an exchange can claim credit for being the inventor.

yes, quite likely.

Sugar is sha-che in Chinese? What does that mean? In Cantonese or Mandarin?

by Guest Tue May 01, 2012 1:54 am

blabberwock wrote:Sugar is sha-che in Chinese? What does that mean? In Cantonese or Mandarin?

what? i doubt if there were classifications like cantonese or mandarin then. i don't know in which chinese language sha-che is sugar. probably the one close to the silk route (road). sugar was around during indus valley civ. times.

by Kris Tue May 01, 2012 2:02 am

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:
blabberwock wrote:Sugar is sha-che in Chinese? What does that mean? In Cantonese or Mandarin?

what? i doubt if there were classifications like cantonese or mandarin then. i don't know in which chinese language sha-che is sugar. probably the one close to the silk route (road). sugar was around during indus valley civ. times.

>>>>An alternate and more plausible explanation is it that is a derivation from 'SuChat', in honor of the pleasant exchanges therein.

Smile

by Guest Tue May 01, 2012 2:23 am

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:
blabberwock wrote:Sugar is sha-che in Chinese? What does that mean? In Cantonese or Mandarin?

what? i doubt if there were classifications like cantonese or mandarin then. i don't know in which chinese language sha-che is sugar. probably the one close to the silk route (road). sugar was around during indus valley civ. times.

I looked up chinese dictionaries and could not find this word anywhere. Also, the word used for "sugar" doesn't sound anything like "sha che". Hence I was curious.

Kris, "SuCHat" it is!

by Guest Tue May 01, 2012 2:41 am

bw,

i don't know if you read the link i referenced. to quote from it, "Here the word sugar is traced to the Chinese term Sha-Che, literally "Sand-Sugar plant," signifying a sand-like product from the sugar plant, which is sugar."

also check this: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/shache

"a town in W China, in the W Xinjiang: a centre of the caravan trade between China, India, and Transcaspian areas"

what is sugar now called in mandarin and cantonese?

by Guest Tue May 01, 2012 3:55 am

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:bw,

what is sugar now called in mandarin and cantonese?

Tang.

by Guest Tue May 01, 2012 4:08 am

tang you. possibly its like how sugar is no longer called shakkar in hindi but cheeni.

by Guest Tue May 01, 2012 5:03 am

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:tang you. possibly its like how sugar is no longer called shakkar in hindi but cheeni.

Are you telling me that as long as there is one page spat out by google saying something, that something MUST be true? Shocked

by Guest Tue May 01, 2012 5:15 am

no, i am not saying that. i am assuming the author is an expert on matters chinese. you are not. i'd be inclined to trust him more than i'd trust you you (on such matters). i'm not saying that sugar is NOT called tang in mandarin but i doubt if it was never called sha-che. the author draws a few more parallels that you can mull over:

In India the large crystalline form of sugar is called Misri. Its Chinese original is Mi-Sha-Li, "sweet-pebble-glassy," a sweet crystalline (glassy) substance the size of pebbles.

But a sweet, composed of sugar and an article of food, was known in
Chinese as Kan-Di, "Sweet-Drop." This became Candy in English, Qand in
Arabic, Khanda in Sanskrit and Khand in vernaculars.

the direction of the flow of the words, as i have already stated, is perhaps moot (despite the author's contentions). frankly, i don't know.

by Guest Tue May 01, 2012 5:33 am

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:no, i am not saying that. i am assuming the author is an expert on matters chinese. you are not. i'd be inclined to trust him more than i'd trust you you (on such matters). i'm not saying that sugar is NOT called tang in mandarin but i doubt if it was never called sha-che. the author draws a few more parallels that you can mull over:

Fair assumption - all I know is that sugar is "tang".

by Guest Tue May 01, 2012 5:35 am

what about kan-di and mi-sha-li. do they sound familiar?

by Guest Tue May 01, 2012 5:38 am

I looked at some other articles written by this same author - interesting!

Reminds me of an old sulekha poster.

by Guest Tue May 01, 2012 5:39 am

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:what about kan-di and mi-sha-li. do they sound familiar?

I am not familiar with these words - I will see if I can get a SME to comment on this article.

by MaxEntropy_Man Tue May 01, 2012 6:43 am

panini press wrote: In Sanskrit, Farsi and Arabic, the three languages that most influenced Hindi, the words for sugar are sharkara, shakkar and sukkar respectively. Where did chInI come from?

the preservation of the "ar" sound in the formal tamil word is strongly suggestive of a sanskritic origin of the word for tamil. chIni is also occasionally used in tamil.

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Tue May 01, 2012 7:41 am

Conclusion:

Chinese - mandarin or Cantonese - has its origin in Sanskrit.

All Chinese should learn Sanksrit for the ultimate Hindi-Chini Synthesis.

by MaxEntropy_Man Tue May 01, 2012 8:21 am

maria in a related thread says:

*To my knowledge - "Cheeni" and not Chini was the tamil
term used for Sugar by Tamilians (especially people from Tirunelveli,
Kanyakumari Districts..and Tamilians who migrated to Burma and
Malaysia). There are different terms used based on the "size/color of
the sugar crystals"- Cheeni is used for more refined granulated sugar.
Brown sugar/jaggery is obviously vellam (sarkarai pongal is
interestingly made from brown sugar and not cheeni), and if it's from
palm sugar "panavellam" etc.

This is perhaps a close to accurate link about the road which Cheeni traveled:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6764089

"Another
form of sugar is in small crystals, which in a heap appear opaque-white
or porcelain-white rather than transparent salt-white. Porcelain-white
sugar was called Cheeni, where Cheeni = Porcelain.

maria, if that was a response to what i said here, i think i should clarify. i use lower case and upper case letters of the roman alphabet in a very particular way to denote tamil and other indian vowel sounds. i find it efficacious to write "I" rather than "ee" for ஈ; i.e for all the நெடில்s (long sounds) i use the capitals. thus,

A -- ஆ; I -- ஈ; U--ஊ; O--ஓ;

and the corresponding lower case letters for the குறில்s (short sounds).
goes without saying that i use "ai" for ஐ.

so in summary, i did mean cheeni, except i choose to denote it as chIni. yes the thirunelveli folks are the ones who say chIni (my mother's side of the family).

by Guest Tue May 01, 2012 8:36 am

in hindi/hindustani, cheeni and shakkar are synonyms. I have heard both words being used interchangeably for sugar.

by Maria S Tue May 01, 2012 8:38 am

நன்றி மாக்ஸ். Now it makes sense.

I am not sure how I jumped from this thread to the other thread, and now back here!

Thought about a certain Tamil Thatha..when I read your response..interesting indeed:)

by MaxEntropy_Man Tue May 01, 2012 8:59 am

Maria S wrote:நன்றி மாக்ஸ். Now it makes sense.

I am not sure how I jumped from this thread to the other thread, and now back here!

Thought about a certain Tamil Thatha..when I read your response..interesting indeed:)

haha, you are back here because i quoted you here. happens to me too on related threads. yes indeed; love of tamil is a strong family legacy. if i had more free time, linguistics and tamil literature and poetry will keep me occupied for hours and hours. i missed the one other vowel sound, so the complete list:

A -- ஆ; I -- ஈ; E-- ஏ; U--ஊ; O--ஓ;

by Maria S Tue May 01, 2012 9:20 am

Nice to know about your family legacy. Truly nice- your passion seems to be real.

I had a very special Thatha..who loved Tamil too, among other things. But for him..I would not be into some things/people:) May be life would have been much easier- but, far less interesting!

by Jeremiah Mburuburu Tue May 01, 2012 11:01 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
panini press wrote: In Sanskrit, Farsi and Arabic, the three languages that most influenced Hindi, the words for sugar are sharkara, shakkar and sukkar respectively. Where did chInI come from?

the preservation of the "ar" sound in the formal tamil word is strongly suggestive of a sanskritic origin of the word for tamil. chIni is also occasionally used in tamil.

in malayaLam, shaRkara = jaggery (vellam in thamizh). the sound of the 'sh' is not that of the 'sh' of english, but the sanskritic sound (i think), as in "shabdham" (sound). the word commonly used for sugar in my family was "panjasaara."

by chameli Tue May 01, 2012 11:11 am

hindi chini bhai bhai

could the sugary word" chini " have come from the personality of the chink as we know him ?

by Guest Tue May 01, 2012 11:34 am

panini press wrote:I didn't write that clearly. Fine whitish powder would make sense to compare in texture and color to porcelain clay, while coarse golden granules would be more comparable to sand. Perhaps chInI is a relatively recent word for sugar that became more popular than the older shakkar?

yes, you surmise correct. in fact in that link i referenced (and which maria also referenced -- it's among the first few results in a google search for cheeni etymology), the author claims sha in chinese means sand, which is not far from the sanskrit sharkara for sand (as per you). the silk road, i tell you.

by Jeremiah Mburuburu Tue May 01, 2012 11:38 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Maria S wrote:நன்றி மாக்ஸ்.

haha, you are back here because i quoted you here. happens to me too on related threads. yes indeed; love of tamil is a strong family legacy. if i had more free time, linguistics and tamil literature and poetry will keep me occupied for hours and hours. i missed the one other vowel sound, so the complete list:

A -- ஆ; I -- ஈ; E-- ஏ; U--ஊ; O--ஓ;

what about the 'ou' formed by combining the 'o' and the 'La'? i remember little kids pronouncing "ouvayaar"/"avvayaar" as "oLavayaar."

by MaxEntropy_Man Tue May 01, 2012 11:42 am

Jeremiah Mburuburu wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Maria S wrote:நன்றி மாக்ஸ்.

haha, you are back here because i quoted you here. happens to me too on related threads. yes indeed; love of tamil is a strong family legacy. if i had more free time, linguistics and tamil literature and poetry will keep me occupied for hours and hours. i missed the one other vowel sound, so the complete list:

A -- ஆ; I -- ஈ; E-- ஏ; U--ஊ; O--ஓ;
what about the 'ou' formed by combining the 'o' and the 'La'? i remember little kids pronouncing "ouvayaar"/"avvayaar" as "oLavayaar."

yes, indeed. they'd read it as oLavayyar because of the similarity between the mAthirai that follows ஒ in au, and the letter La. i was only writing the more common vowel sounds. ஔ would just be represented as au/ou in my representation.

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