World's Top 500 will be allowed into India

....Can the American Univ of Beirut (#298 or something) open shop?

As if every university in India is in top 500.

Besides, the degrees will be awarded only by the Indian universities for their acceptability in Indian market.

===> I do not understand this at all.

If Harvard university sets up a campus in New Delhi, will it will be allowed to award a degree?

MulaiAzhagi wrote:Besides, the degrees will be awarded only by the Indian universities for their acceptability in Indian market.

===> I do not understand this at all.

If Harvard university sets up a campus in New Delhi, will it will be allowed to award a degree?

Only geniuses like Kapil Sibal can understand.

Other than the 4 or 5 original IITs, no other Indian institution is in the world's top 300

just WHY would any reputed foreign university want to set shop in India is the first question?

Someone I respect advised me that the biggest "delta"s will be seen in the following three areas in the next 20 years:

EDUCATION

ENERGY

HEALTHCARE

Khan Academy, Twinning, Coursera are harbingers of big change. If GoI stayed away from sops like letting SC/ST/BC candidates who score below the already lowered cut-offs (vis-a-vis Open quota), get in, things are looking up for the Indian student.

Kumarg wrote:just WHY would any reputed foreign university want to set shop in India is the first question?

please explain your Q.

atcg wrote:Someone I respect advised me that the biggest "delta"s will be seen in the following three areas in the next 20 years:

EDUCATION

good advice. but will not take off (as i have mentioned elsewhere) until education is made a "for profit" industry. till then we have to be content with "twinning" and the twisted private education industry we have presently (inherited from nehruvian times). if education is made "for profit," it will become a service industry bigger than IT is today and as a side effect it might improve literacy if not wipe out illiteracy. just think NIIT. it offers "diplomas" equivalent (or better) than comp. sci. undergraduate degrees. and NIIT is expanding globally for there is a niche in every china. imagine if NIIT was allowed to operate "for profit" institutions of learning that awarded high school and college "certificates" and "degrees."

HEALTHCARE

cannot comment for we are going through terrible times. will the elephant collapse? who knows. wait and watch.

someone I respect advised me that:

Not taking a decision may appear the easier route, but it only stores up problems that then lead to a crisis, he said. "This is what we are seeing in some of the eurozone countries."

"Our people are not adequately aware about what the consequence of inaction has been in Europe. Salaries of civil servants are being cut by 20%, unemployment among youth has reached 50%, job losses are taking place, and even pensions are being reduced."

Ahluwalia said some of the despondency could also be blamed on the "excessive exuberance" witnessed during the time the economy clocked 9% growth.
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"We must use it (the period between the presidential and assembly elections) to educate people and take whatever steps are feasible ... Ahluwalia admitted global factors were not the only reason for the economy's predicament


source: http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/economy/indicators/government-must-pull-off-reforms-soon-after-president-elections-montek-singh-ahluwalia/articleshow/13788854.cms

note: deleted my follow up posts and edited this one to remove faulty logic and sarcasm.

Huze's views are lop-sided and he has not seen enough of for-profit institutions. Here:

All the private colleges started during the last 20 years are profit motivated. Even then they have difficulty filling their seats with quality students, and in maximizing profits unable to find quality teachers. The result is faulty products - graduates. I the students dont rise to the institutions standards, the institutions are forced to lower their standards.

Private hospitals will not be able to serve the lower 1/3rd of the population. with profit as motive patients are fleeced and made paupers. With Indians living longer and diseases showing up earlier, this is disaster in the making.

When Profit is made the top priority efforts WILL be made to cut costs (hiring of less qualified personnel) and increase revenue (fleecing patients/students).

This are not such straightforward issues.

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:All the private colleges started during the last 20 years are profit motivated.

do you appreciate that they are making profits by exploiting loopholes? legally private colleges can be run only by "no profit" trusts.

Even then they have difficulty filling their seats with quality students, and in maximizing profits unable to find quality teachers. The result is faulty products - graduates. I the students dont rise to the institutions standards, the institutions are forced to lower their standards.

i agree. but the reason for this is the point i mention earlier. it is also true that some of the best colleges are private -- bit and iis. how do you explain that?

Private hospitals will not be able to serve the lower 1/3rd of the population. with profit as motive patients are fleeced and made paupers. With Indians living longer and diseases showing up earlier, this is disaster in the making.

i was talking of education, not healthcare.

When Profit is made the top priority efforts WILL be made to cut costs (hiring of less qualified personnel) and increase revenue (fleecing patients/students).

i see. what has the experience of for-profit vs not-for-profit colleges in the US been?

wait, are you talking about USA or india? at least now in the US you don't care if your hospital is private or public?

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:

Even then they have difficulty filling their seats with quality students, and in maximizing profits unable to find quality teachers. The result is faulty products - graduates. I the students dont rise to the institutions standards, the institutions are forced to lower their standards.

i agree. but the reason for this is the point i mention earlier. it is also true that some of the best colleges are private -- bit and iis. how do you explain that?

These are not for-profit colleges. Besides, for these two good colleges, there are some 2000 private colleges that are little more than fake institutions.

Are you saying by simply privatizing and allowing profit colleges, India will be FULL of great institutions ?

BTW, most of the top 500 institutions are Govt. institutions. Did you find any for-profit university in the list?

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:These are not for-profit colleges.

i agree. they (bit and iis) probably do not exploit the loophole other trusts that run colleges in india do. but they pretty much run on edowments like top US colleges do. can we depend on philanthropy to bring about a big change in education india? the state has proved to be ineffective. why not turn to the private sector? the private sector can do something (read my next point).

Besides, for these two good colleges, there are some 2000 private colleges that are little more than fake institutions.

i strongly disagree. there are a lot of good private colleges in india today (but clearly not enough for our populace) that have better infrastructure and better faculty than the public colleges -- mostly for undergraduate education. these colleges run on a for-profit basis by exploiting a loophole. a good example is manipal inst. of tech. that is ranked among top 10 in asia for its med. school. it is purely a for-profit institution. it started as an affiliate of mangalore university and is now a deemed univ. vellore inst. of technology is another top undergraduate private school for engineering. there are countless today, with many in bangalore that has developed as a hub for good, pvt. engineering colleges. i agree there are scam colleges too (some colleges got stripped of their deemed status a few years ago) but it is a gross generalization to paint all the pvt. colleges of higher engineering education with the same brush.

Are you saying by simply privatizing and allowing profit colleges, India will be FULL of great institutions ?

ha ha. you tend to jump to conclusions easily. all i am saying is that the situation will be FAR better than what it is today. it will be an industry and will bring revenue to the exchequer. creating great institutions is not our priority. educating the masses is. there are way too few colleges for engineering in india. people complain about their being too many iits. read this: https://twitter.com/ajit_ranade/status/209143275930664961

BTW, most of the top 500 institutions are Govt. institutions. Did you find any for-profit university in the list?

we can't have colleges subsidizing their education through endowments and spending money on building fancy gymnasiums and AC dormitories that do nothing to educate people. such a model is not sustainable in india.

see this ranking of engineering colleges in india. i would tend to trust outlook's ranking the most for being unbiased. jadavpur university and bengal engineering college, top public colleges in my time (there were even talks of turning JU into an IIT but the state govt. resisted), DO NOT even figure in the top 50 rankings for engg. colleges now! there are pvt. engineering colleges leagues ahead of them!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Indian_engineering_college_rankings

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:see this ranking of engineering colleges in india. i would tend to trust outlook's ranking the most for being unbiased. jadavpur university and bengal engineering college, top public colleges in my time (there were even talks of turning JU into an IIT but the state govt. resisted), DO NOT even figure in the top 50 rankings for engg. colleges now! there are pvt. engineering colleges leagues ahead of them!

[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Indian_engineering_college_rankings

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Indian_engineering_college_rankings[/quote[/url]]



outlook rankings are usually crap, often ranked by folks who has never even visited any of those colleges.

[quote="artood2"]

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:see this ranking of engineering colleges in india. i would tend to trust outlook's ranking the most for being unbiased. jadavpur university and bengal engineering college, top public colleges in my time (there were even talks of turning JU into an IIT but the state govt. resisted), DO NOT even figure in the top 50 rankings for engg. colleges now! there are pvt. engineering colleges leagues ahead of them!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Indian_engineering_college_rankings[/quote]

outlook rankings are usually crap, often ranked by folks who has never even visited any of those colleges.

The point I was trying to make to Huze was just by allowing for-profit colleges, it would not result in hundreds of IIT-Caliber schools all over India (even after 50 years). He then came down to a "lot of good schools" and cited 2 examples. In fact, I can even cite 25+ GOOD private colleges, but that still does not guarantee IIT-caliber schools if for-profit colleges are allowed. Indian politicians will immediately devise mechanism to use the tool to loot the people.

Name dropping: A couple of years back I met someone who was on the Vellore Inst tech board and he explained how it progressed so much so fast. Simply put, it was run by a brahmin family with the sole intention of creating a world class institution and all the exhorbitant fees are ploughed back into the institution.

So intention, motivation, and dedication take precedence over profit when it comes to "service segment" of the economy.

i just read up on the net about the US higher education system and realized that some of the suggestions i have made upthread (regarding higher eduction in india) are frankly radical and borne out of ignorance. a few clarifications are in order (this post is only for engineering colleges):

- school (secondary, higher secondary) and higher education in the US and practically worldwide is handled either by the state or private entities that are not-for-profit. india is no exception and it not a "nehruvian hangover" as i wrongly asserted upthread.

- private schools in the US are financed by endowments, tuition fees and federal funding. some of these "endowment" colleges in the US and UK are very very rich (the returns from the "endowment" reserves is enough to run their college for free and still leave surpluses to be reinvested).

- for-profit colleges in the US are a recent phenomena. they too partly enjoy federal funding. they are in some flak currently because of their misuse of federal funds and public funds through misleading marketing and enrollment.

- i could not find any example of the indian private college in the world (on a careless net search). indian private colleges are for-profit (in practise) and they enjoy no federal or centre funding and yet have produced some respected colleges. (pvt. colleges here are either affiliated to a state university or enjoy the "deemed" status.) their success is telling. their funding is primarily "robin hood" type -- tax the rich students, subsidize the poor; and has been tried to be tamed but largely through PILS in the SC. the govt. is not interested at all in legitimizing their method of operation. kapil sibal puts his foot down when he says that higher education will never be for-profit. but is he interested in regulating how these colleges make profit or what good they have down to the higher education landscape in india? that brings me back to my main point. for the middle class of india, these private engineering schools are a salve. some of these parents have not been lucky enough to have their kid find a seat in iits or nits but their kids find a seat on merit in these academies (and later join tcs/infosys/wipro and finish their mba from iim). and these colleges enjoy no government funding support. which other country has such colleges?

- i doubt for-profit entities can help improve literacy in india (as i wrongly suggested upthread). only the govt. can and should shoulder the responsibility of primary and secondary education. we can't even consider private-public partnerships or incentives or subsidies as a viable alternative here for that would invite misuse of the system.

- if the indian higher education scenario and the private sector is a unique case, then i think it should somehow be legitimized. right now trusted business houses are reluctant to step into this industry -- they don't want to exploit loopholes to profit. i don't know what the solution is. perhaps a for-profit status to these colleges with a very low tax rate with stringent enforcement. like we do for agricultural income. there will still be misuse and evasion and violation, but perhaps a bit less?

[quote="artood2"]

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:see this ranking of engineering colleges in india. i would tend to trust outlook's ranking the most for being unbiased. jadavpur university and bengal engineering college, top public colleges in my time (there were even talks of turning JU into an IIT but the state govt. resisted), DO NOT even figure in the top 50 rankings for engg. colleges now! there are pvt. engineering colleges leagues ahead of them!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Indian_engineering_college_rankings[/quote]



outlook rankings are usually crap, often ranked by folks who has never even visited any of those colleges.

oh! india today? dataquest? how about student ratings on the net: http://www.collegekhabar.com/ranking/2012/

everything is crap? where do we start. you tell us.

iit ratings are crap by global bodies. the global body is crap?

[quote="Marathadi-Saamiyaar"]

artood2 wrote:

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:see this ranking of engineering colleges in india. i would tend to trust outlook's ranking the most for being unbiased. jadavpur university and bengal engineering college, top public colleges in my time (there were even talks of turning JU into an IIT but the state govt. resisted), DO NOT even figure in the top 50 rankings for engg. colleges now! there are pvt. engineering colleges leagues ahead of them!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Indian_engineering_college_rankings[/quote]

outlook rankings are usually crap, often ranked by folks who has never even visited any of those colleges.

The point I was trying to make to Huze was just by allowing for-profit colleges, it would not result in hundreds of IIT-Caliber schools all over India (even after 50 years). He then came down to a "lot of good schools" and cited 2 examples. In fact, I can even cite 25+ GOOD private colleges, but that still does not guarantee IIT-caliber schools if for-profit colleges are allowed. Indian politicians will immediately devise mechanism to use the tool to loot the people.

Name dropping: A couple of years back I met someone who was on the Vellore Inst tech board and he explained how it progressed so much so fast. Simply put, it was run by a brahmin family with the sole intention of creating a world class institution and all the exhorbitant fees are ploughed back into the institution.

So intention, motivation, and dedication take precedence over profit when it comes to "service segment" of the economy.

I did not read the thread and was just pointing to the irrelevance of rankings. I agree with you that it owner's intent and motivation determines the direction of the institution. The univs that can attract the best (both teachers and students) will be the best. Their ability of attract the best would depend on the faciilities and the career path they can provide. Good students attract recruiters and good recruitment attracts good students.

[quote="Huzefa Kapasi"]

artood2 wrote:

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:see this ranking of engineering colleges in india. i would tend to trust outlook's ranking the most for being unbiased. jadavpur university and bengal engineering college, top public colleges in my time (there were even talks of turning JU into an IIT but the state govt. resisted), DO NOT even figure in the top 50 rankings for engg. colleges now! there are pvt. engineering colleges leagues ahead of them!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Indian_engineering_college_rankings[/quote]



outlook rankings are usually crap, often ranked by folks who has never even visited any of those colleges.

oh! india today? dataquest? how about student ratings on the net: http://www.collegekhabar.com/ranking/2012/

everything is crap? where do we start. you tell us.

iit ratings are crap by global bodies. the global body is crap?

Yes most rankings are totally crap.

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:The point I was trying to make to Huze was just by allowing for-profit colleges, it would not result in hundreds of IIT-Caliber schools all over India (even after 50 years). He then came down to a "lot of good schools" and cited 2 examples. In fact, I can even cite 25+ GOOD private colleges, but that still does not guarantee IIT-caliber schools if for-profit colleges are allowed. Indian politicians will immediately devise mechanism to use the tool to loot the people

i am apologizing in advance for calling you a numbskull. you numbskull, WHAT IS AN IIT-CALIBER SCHOOL?

In fact, I can even cite 25+ GOOD private colleges, but that still does not guarantee IIT-caliber schools if for-profit colleges are allowed.

Samiyaar,

I know two guys who just did B.Sc and they are here in this country. One fellow went to Government Arts College, Nandanam and the other guy went to Dhanbad Jain College. Both colleges are in Chennai.

One is a program manager and the other used to work for IBM and now runs his own IT bodyshop.

I over heard the jerk who went to Dhanbad Jain College telling some ABCD girls in a party that he went to Carnegie Melon University. It was his friend who went there. The friend died fifteen years ago. I did not want to call the guy's bluff and embarass him in front of the two girls he tried to impress.

And then there is an IIT guy I know who has a Ph.D in climatology after doing his B.Tech in mechanical engineering. He is now a UNIX systems administrator. He always complains about having ended up as a system admin even after having gone to IIT.

One day he may end up working for the B.Sc guys I mentioned.

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:see this ranking of engineering colleges in india. i would tend to trust outlook's ranking the most for being unbiased. jadavpur university and bengal engineering college, top public colleges in my time (there were even talks of turning JU into an IIT but the state govt. resisted), DO NOT even figure in the top 50 rankings for engg. colleges now! there are pvt. engineering colleges leagues ahead of them!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Indian_engineering_college_rankings

no, this is not quite correct. bengal engineering college has been converted into Indian Institute of Engineering Science and Technology from this year. JU was ranked 10 by outlook in 2009. both are still premier academies.