Milwaukee shooting at a Gurdwara

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Sun Aug 05, 2012 1:55 pm

..I bet these red neck (Palinist) morons mixed up Sardar jis with Osama jis...

by Guest Sun Aug 05, 2012 2:00 pm

fast assumptions, Uppili.

by Propagandhi711 Sun Aug 05, 2012 2:14 pm

Probably some hothead Sikh fuck shooting up his sisters secret lover or his girlfriend's jealous brother...

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Sun Aug 05, 2012 2:16 pm

kinnera wrote:fast assumptions, Uppili.

Of course....after the facts come out, it is about why and how come....

Much of the interest is in guessing and predicting. Think of it as Political astrology.

by Guest Sun Aug 05, 2012 2:26 pm

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:
kinnera wrote:fast assumptions, Uppili.

Of course....after the facts come out, it is about why and how come....

Much of the interest is in guessing and predicting. Think of it as Political astrology.

Ya, wonder who'd do such a heinous act. Nerve wracking! Hope it all ends soon, without loss of life.

by MulaiAzhagi Sun Aug 05, 2012 2:38 pm

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:
kinnera wrote:fast assumptions, Uppili.

Of course....after the facts come out, it is about why and how come....

Much of the interest is in guessing and predicting. Think of it as Political astrology.

===> Talking about Astrology, SASTRA university at Tanjore, TN has a department of Astrology. They offer a B.A and M.A degrees and a certificate in Astrology.

http://www.sastra.edu/distanceeducation/AstrologyProgramme.asp

by MulaiAzhagi Sun Aug 05, 2012 2:42 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QUl_bUf3eo&feature=relmfu

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajqR-DA-K7A

by MaxEntropy_Man Sun Aug 05, 2012 5:32 pm

those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it. those who lack the balls to take on the NRA are doomed to be read the same old nonsense -- guns don't kill people, people kill people. yeah sure. we may as well cut and paste these discussions every few weeks. will save us all some typing. i'm just numb.

by MaxEntropy_Man Sun Aug 05, 2012 5:34 pm

kinnera wrote:

Ya, wonder who'd do such a heinous act.

anyone who is deranged, has some axe to grind and has the legal means to easily buy guns.

by truthbetold Sun Aug 05, 2012 10:59 pm

This gurudwara was operating for a long time. It is surprising that this place was picked for attack. I suspect uppili could be right but let us wait for more information.

by Maria S Mon Aug 06, 2012 7:41 am

From what we know so far, seems like a hate crime and "domestic terrorism" too. If this had happened in a Church- think the way it is being covered will be quite different and intense..and if this was "foreign terrorism"..everyone knows how "everyone" would have reacted by now.

No place is safe, anywhere.. from gun, and from hate..too bad, nothing will be done in regards to guns..may be we will have check points in theaters, parks, places of worship (like we have in many schools and hospital ERs now).

My condolences and prayers to all who were affected by this tragedy and
irreplaceable losses.

by Maria S Mon Aug 06, 2012 8:01 am

*Guns.

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Aug 06, 2012 8:51 am

Maria S wrote:
.....nothing will be done in regards to guns..

why not? why do you give up so easily?

by Maria S Mon Aug 06, 2012 9:11 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Maria S wrote:
.....nothing will be done in regards to guns..

why not? why do you give up so easily?

Hmm..Really..does it really look like I give up easily on anything or anyone? Smile

Seriously..think am a hardcore optimist, not easily discouraged or will give up. However, am also a realist, when it comes to guns, and don't think I can work for/pray for a miracle for guns to go away/be taken away in this country.

*For this kind of fight, it's not just one's own energy and time..need a lot of colloboration-forces joining together to take it on..and it's not there now (even from a few American friends who one can count on). It's just "gun culture"..it's ingrained in the psyche..they would rather go and buy more guns to "protect themselves"..than give up the guns they already have.

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Mon Aug 06, 2012 11:59 am

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:

..I bet these red neck (Palinist) morons mixed up Sardar jis with Osama jis...

Samiyaar Gynaan is supreme:

.....the incident took a flat 15 secs to connect the dots and crossing the tees for Saamiyaar, which took 2 days for the cops.

by Maria S Mon Aug 06, 2012 1:06 pm

Ok, Samiyaar is a good dot-connector in this one:)

Seriously..may be people are experiencing "gun violence fatigue"..Not ONE person at work talked to me about this today (anything remotely related to India/Indians- usually they are kind enough to say something)..but, with the Batman theater shooting..they could not talk enough about it..

Did not see one "well-known" Religious leader (Christian) with zillion followers come out and condemn this shooting in a place of worship in public..not too many Indian Orgs in the US (may be Sikh Assns did)..seem to be involved- volunteering to help..local news- last night or this morning..even said a word..while they are still fixated on the Colorado shootings..were talking about that..

*I have not seen anyone bring up gun control- specifically again..includes Pres. Obama, Mr. Romney..did anyone hear anything about guns- related to this tragedy?
In the media..they refer to the shooter as "gunman" or gently as "white supremacist"..not "racist or domestic terrorist"..

Interesting indeed..

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Mon Aug 06, 2012 1:56 pm

Maria S wrote:Ok, Samiyaar is a good dot-connector in this one:)

Seriously..may be people are experiencing "gun violence fatigue"..Not ONE person at work talked to me about this today (anything remotely related to India/Indians- usually they are kind enough to say something)..but, with the Batman theater shooting..they could not talk enough about it..

Did not see one "well-known" Religious leader (Christian) with zillion followers come out and condemn this shooting in a place of worship in public..not too many Indian Orgs in the US (may be Sikh Assns did)..seem to be involved- volunteering to help..local news- last night or this morning..even said a word..while they are still fixated on the Colorado shootings..were talking about that..

*I have not seen anyone bring up gun control- specifically again..includes Pres. Obama, Mr. Romney..did anyone hear anything about guns- related to this tragedy?
In the media..they refer to the shooter as "gunman" or gently as "white supremacist"..not "racist or domestic terrorist"..

Interesting indeed..

Again...

Those who got killed - mostly - hold the right passport but they are of wrong color.

- SaamiYaar Gyaan

by Maria S Mon Aug 06, 2012 2:56 pm

Ok, spoke too quickly..took a lunch break today, and when I returned a nice Black color lady at work mentioned she was sad to hear about it, "that's terrible killing people who were at the temple"..and asked me.."are they Patels who own the motels? Do they eat meat?" It was ignorant, but at least innocent.
Of course, by the time I was done - saying what I could (!) she smiled and said, I am going to tell my grandkids about them..some Americans! Smile

As we say in the South..bless their hearts!

Anyways..looks like there has been more violence against Sikhs in CA, NY and Arizona, than in the South..and we do have small populations of Sikhs.

http://www.buzzfeed.com/summeranne/a-tragic-history-of-hate-crimes-against-sikhs-in-t

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Aug 06, 2012 3:00 pm

the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, e.g. citing the second amendment and that guns don't kill people thing, and expecting a different result.

when the second amendment was written in by the framers, it probably took them a few tens of seconds to reload and fire their musket. watch some of the civil war documentaries. to cling to that interpretation when the automatic weapons of today bear no resemblance to what they had when the second amendment was written is another indication of insanity. we who despise guns must NEVER give up the fight and NEVER give up raising hell with our elected officials whenever this happens no matter how tiresome it gets, or how long it takes for us to see change. writing to them and pestering them is all we can do for now.

here is another place to get involved: http://www.bradycampaign.org/

by Maria S Mon Aug 06, 2012 3:07 pm

Ok Prof, I will continue to offer my support to any initiative/effort which can minimize gun violence.

by truthbetold Mon Aug 06, 2012 9:59 pm

This neo nazi had a dislike of all people non white. It was not a case of mistaken identity. According to local belief this was a pre planned execution.
Surprised at the type of media coverage. Guess some lifes are less important.

by Idéfix Mon Aug 06, 2012 10:09 pm

truthbetold wrote:This neo nazi had a dislike of all people non white. It was not a case of mistaken identity. According to local belief this was a pre planned execution.
Surprised at the type of media coverage. Guess some lifes are less important.

May be it's the fatigue with mass shootings happening so frequently, but this one isn't getting much press at all. Certainly not half of the coverage Aurora got, although the death toll was about half. I guess the media reckons that most people can easily identify with "theater goers" but not with "Sikhs."

by Hellsangel Tue Aug 07, 2012 12:02 am

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/08/06/sikh-temple-shooter-soundtrack-hate/

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Tue Aug 07, 2012 12:18 am

Hellsangel wrote:http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/08/06/sikh-temple-shooter-soundtrack-hate/

NaragaDevathai viLithOr FoxNews ViLithaar
aVvaare Tirubune KayalVizhiyaar

by Maria S Tue Aug 07, 2012 8:05 am

Ok, dear President made a statement about gun violence..well, NOT really..he talked like some of us do with friends when struggle with what to say..measured words..when we want to "really say something..but, we can't"..we talk indirectly about soul, heart, life, truth...it goes nowhere! Smile

blah, blah..American friends soul searching all the way to the gun stores..and coming back with a few more!

Obama: America needs "soul searching" on gun violence

http://news.yahoo.com/america-needs-soul-searching-gun-violence-obama-101136076.html

by Hellsangel Tue Aug 07, 2012 10:27 am

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:
Hellsangel wrote:http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/08/06/sikh-temple-shooter-soundtrack-hate/

NaragaDevathai viLithOr FoxNews ViLithaar
aVvaare Tirubune KayalVizhiyaar

Like your Holiness uses samachar.com after donkey's years in Kansas.

by Guest Tue Aug 07, 2012 10:56 am

The president of the gurudwara tried to stop the shooter with a knife. Coz a blood-covered knife was found nearby and the shooter left a trail of blood as he walked about. They say his heroic efforts did slow the shooter down a bit, and hence saved a few lives.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/06/us/wisconsin-shooting-victims/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

If you are a president of any such building prone to such attacks, what would you be thinking? Keep a gun? Hire a security guard with a weapon? Keep police protection?

The way many would think is, 'Had anyone in that gurudwara kept a gun, he/she could have shot back and still be a hero. If a shooter knows of such a possibility, he would think twice before entering any such establishment'.

And that's the sad part of the whole gun situation. While it may take years for proper gun control to take place in the country, it's the self-protection (and in some cases, community protection) mentality that will make you go out and buy a gun. And that in turn might most likely lead to so much more otherwise-avoidable violence.

by MaxEntropy_Man Tue Aug 07, 2012 11:28 am

Natalia Romanova wrote:
If you are a president of any such building prone to such attacks, what would you be thinking? Keep a gun? Hire a security guard with a weapon? Keep police protection?

i also worry about the hindu temples especially on festive days. but you can't live your life in fear. there's nothing much we can do about such random acts of violence other than fighting for stricter gun control. getting armed is not the answer. asking our elected politicians to reinstate the assault weapon ban is a good start.

by Idéfix Tue Aug 07, 2012 11:32 am

Natalia Romanova wrote:The way many would think is, 'Had anyone in that gurudwara kept a gun, he/she could have shot back and still be a hero. If a shooter knows of such a possibility, he would think twice before entering any such establishment'.

The shooter was a soldier who was trained to kill armed people who know how to use their weapons. The fact is, the guy was prepared to die as was clear in his not surrendering. When someone is prepared to die in order to do their terrible deed, there is very little deterrence from other people carrying weapons. It is a really bad argument that more guns in more people's hands leads to more security. It is not borne out by evidence. Developed countries with far fewer guns than America have a far lower rate of gun violence.

by MaxEntropy_Man Tue Aug 07, 2012 11:35 am

here's another organization worthy of supporting that tracks these kinds of fringe groups:

http://www.splcenter.org/

by MaxEntropy_Man Tue Aug 07, 2012 11:46 am

i may have posted this earlier, but it's very relevant to the discussion, so reposting:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41018893/ns/slate_com/t/armed-giffords-hero-nearly-shot-wrong-man/#.UCE31kTYqvF

by Propagandhi711 Tue Aug 07, 2012 2:05 pm

panini press wrote:
Natalia Romanova wrote:The way many would think is, 'Had anyone in that gurudwara kept a gun, he/she could have shot back and still be a hero. If a shooter knows of such a possibility, he would think twice before entering any such establishment'.
The shooter was a soldier who was trained to kill armed people who know how to use their weapons. The fact is, the guy was prepared to die as was clear in his not surrendering. When someone is prepared to die in order to do their terrible deed, there is very little deterrence from other people carrying weapons. It is a really bad argument that more guns in more people's hands leads to more security. It is not borne out by evidence. Developed countries with far fewer guns than America have a far lower rate of gun violence.

It would have been better if the police officer were unarmed...after all when somebody is ready to die, there is very little deterrence from other ppl carrying weapons.

Also why is there so little gun related violence in switzerland where gun ownership is mandatory?

by Idéfix Tue Aug 07, 2012 2:10 pm

Propagandhi711 wrote:
panini press wrote:
Natalia Romanova wrote:The way many would think is, 'Had anyone in that gurudwara kept a gun, he/she could have shot back and still be a hero. If a shooter knows of such a possibility, he would think twice before entering any such establishment'.
The shooter was a soldier who was trained to kill armed people who know how to use their weapons. The fact is, the guy was prepared to die as was clear in his not surrendering. When someone is prepared to die in order to do their terrible deed, there is very little deterrence from other people carrying weapons. It is a really bad argument that more guns in more people's hands leads to more security. It is not borne out by evidence. Developed countries with far fewer guns than America have a far lower rate of gun violence.

It would have been better if the police officer were unarmed...after all when somebody is ready to die, there is very little deterrence from other ppl carrying weapons.

If the choice is between an untrained amateur wielding a gun and an unarmed amateur, the latter is better for public safety. Police officers, OTOH, are trained professionals who are taught how to use the weapon, and they are authorized to use the weapon for public safety, not as vigilantes.

Propagandhi711 wrote:Also why is there so little gun related violence in switzerland where gun ownership is mandatory?

That question reminds me of Kayal Vizhi's comparisons of her prospective Tamil nation to Singapore. Switzerland allows trained members of its militia to keep guns at home. That is very different from how things work in the US.

by MaxEntropy_Man Tue Aug 07, 2012 2:19 pm

Propagandhi711 wrote:
It would have been better if the police officer were unarmed...after all when somebody is ready to die, there is very little deterrence from other ppl carrying weapons.

eh? there is no difference between a cop trained and hired to protect the public and uphold law and order, and chuck next door owning a glock for "sporting" interests and because he loves the second amendment?

there was at least one guy who was packing during the arizona shooting. he never used it and explains why in that MSNBC article i posted. i am curious; why do you want to sign on to the NRA's agenda?

by Hellsangel Tue Aug 07, 2012 2:22 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
why do you want to sign on to the NRA's agenda?

What is that supposed to mean, Il Professore?

by MaxEntropy_Man Tue Aug 07, 2012 2:23 pm

Hellsangel wrote:

What is that supposed to mean, Il Professore?

i want to know why propagandhi buys into the NRA's agenda.

by Hellsangel Tue Aug 07, 2012 2:26 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Hellsangel wrote:

What is that supposed to mean, Il Professore?

i want to know why propagandhi buys into the NRA's agenda.

Are you suggesting he should not?

by MaxEntropy_Man Tue Aug 07, 2012 2:28 pm

Hellsangel wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Hellsangel wrote:

What is that supposed to mean, Il Professore?

i want to know why propagandhi buys into the NRA's agenda.

Are you suggesting he should not?

yes. i suggest that to everybody i meet virtually and in real life.

by truthbetold Tue Aug 07, 2012 9:41 pm

I extend my support to max for his strong stand on the gun issue. My feelings on gun control may not fully agree with max. But he is consistent and vocal and ready to express his views in real world. Such discussion is required.

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Wed Aug 08, 2012 12:01 am

truthbetold wrote:I extend my support to max for his strong stand on the gun issue. My feelings on gun control may not fully agree with max. But he is consistent and vocal and ready to express his views in real world. Such discussion is required.

How about supporting me? I have been consistent and vocal on any and every issue and sticking to them come what may.... Laughing

by Propagandhi711 Wed Aug 08, 2012 1:35 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Propagandhi711 wrote:
It would have been better if the police officer were unarmed...after all when somebody is ready to die, there is very little deterrence from other ppl carrying weapons.

eh? there is no difference between a cop trained and hired to protect the public and uphold law and order, and chuck next door owning a glock for "sporting" interests and because he loves the second amendment?

there was at least one guy who was packing during the arizona shooting. he never used it and explains why in that MSNBC article i posted. i am curious; why do you want to sign on to the NRA's agenda?

The key is proper firearms training, both in the case of Switzerland and in case of vast majority of legit fireArms users, most of who support NRA..you think cops are some sort of demigods in firearms usage? it's not all so mysterious..regular practice and proper training will make places more safe..much more than a brave old Sikh man with butter knife could. Do you deny that he could have taken the nazi out more effectively with a 9mm than with a blunt butter knife? I don't read msnbc links any more than fox news links

by Idéfix Wed Aug 08, 2012 1:37 pm

Propagandhi711 wrote:The key is proper firearms training, both in the case of Switzerland and in case of vast majority of legit fireArms users

In Switzerland, proper military training is mandatory before you get to keep a weapon at home. No such deal with gun-loving crazies in the US.

by Propagandhi711 Wed Aug 08, 2012 1:42 pm

panini press wrote:
Propagandhi711 wrote:
panini press wrote:
Natalia Romanova wrote:The way many would think is, 'Had anyone in that gurudwara kept a gun, he/she could have shot back and still be a hero. If a shooter knows of such a possibility, he would think twice before entering any such establishment'.
The shooter was a soldier who was trained to kill armed people who know how to use their weapons. The fact is, the guy was prepared to die as was clear in his not surrendering. When someone is prepared to die in order to do their terrible deed, there is very little deterrence from other people carrying weapons. It is a really bad argument that more guns in more people's hands leads to more security. It is not borne out by evidence. Developed countries with far fewer guns than America have a far lower rate of gun violence.

It would have been better if the police officer were unarmed...after all when somebody is ready to die, there is very little deterrence from other ppl carrying weapons.
If the choice is between an untrained amateur wielding a gun and an unarmed amateur, the latter is better for public safety. Police officers, OTOH, are trained professionals who are taught how to use the weapon, and they are authorized to use the weapon for public safety, not as vigilantes.

Propagandhi711 wrote:Also why is there so little gun related violence in switzerland where gun ownership is mandatory?
That question reminds me of Kayal Vizhi's comparisons of her prospective Tamil nation to Singapore. Switzerland allows trained members of its militia to keep guns at home. That is very different from how things work in the US.

It's not allowing, it's a requirement in Switzerland. Again, let's downplay proof contrary to our position if it doesn't fit our narrative

by Idéfix Wed Aug 08, 2012 1:44 pm

Propagandhi711 wrote:Also why is there so little gun related violence in switzerland where gun ownership is mandatory?
charvaka wrote:That question reminds me of Kayal Vizhi's comparisons of her prospective Tamil nation to Singapore. Switzerland allows trained members of its militia to keep guns at home. That is very different from how things work in the US.

It's not allowing, it's a requirement in Switzerland. Again, let's downplay proof contrary to our position if it doesn't fit our narrative

It is a requirement for trained members of the Swiss national guard to keep weapons at home. How does that relate to to the US, again?

by Propagandhi711 Wed Aug 08, 2012 1:44 pm

panini press wrote:
Propagandhi711 wrote:The key is proper firearms training, both in the case of Switzerland and in case of vast majority of legit fireArms users
In Switzerland, proper military training is mandatory before you get to keep a weapon at home. No such deal with gun-loving crazies in the US.

What's so special about military training again? Do you think straight shooting and gun safety are some exclusive domain knowledge of military? If you do, you have a very deep misunderstanding of America's gun culture as it practiced by majority of gun owners.

by Idéfix Wed Aug 08, 2012 1:47 pm

Propagandhi711 wrote:
panini press wrote:
Propagandhi711 wrote:The key is proper firearms training, both in the case of Switzerland and in case of vast majority of legit fireArms users
In Switzerland, proper military training is mandatory before you get to keep a weapon at home. No such deal with gun-loving crazies in the US.

What's so special about military training again? Do you think straight shooting and gun safety are some exclusive domain knowledge of military? If you do, you have a very deep misunderstanding of America's gun culture as it practiced by majority of gun owners.

I didn't argue that there was something special about military training. My emphasis is on training. So any random crazy can't walk into a shop and busy an assault weapon that can fire many rounds without reloading.

by Propagandhi711 Wed Aug 08, 2012 1:48 pm

panini press wrote:
Propagandhi711 wrote:Also why is there so little gun related violence in switzerland where gun ownership is mandatory?
That question reminds me of Kayal Vizhi's comparisons of her prospective Tamil nation to Singapore. Switzerland allows trained members of its militia to keep guns at home. That is very different from how things work in the US.

It's not allowing, it's a requirement in Switzerland. Again, let's downplay proof contrary to our position if it doesn't fit our narrative[/quote]It is a requirement for trained members of the Swiss national guard to keep weapons at home. How does that relate to to the US, again?[/quote]

Yeah because vast majority of adult males are required to undergo firearms training as part of militia conscription. How is that very different than Americans that receive firearms training during hunting and target practice places at and early age and grow up to be responsible firearm owners?

by MaxEntropy_Man Wed Aug 08, 2012 1:49 pm

Propagandhi711 wrote:
panini press wrote:
Propagandhi711 wrote:The key is proper firearms training, both in the case of Switzerland and in case of vast majority of legit fireArms users
In Switzerland, proper military training is mandatory before you get to keep a weapon at home. No such deal with gun-loving crazies in the US.

What's so special about military training again? Do you think straight shooting and gun safety are some exclusive domain knowledge of military? If you do, you have a very deep misunderstanding of America's gun culture as it practiced by majority of gun owners.

there's nothing special about military training. there's nothing special about brain surgery either.

by Idéfix Wed Aug 08, 2012 1:54 pm

Propagandhi711 wrote:Yeah because vast majority of adult males are required to undergo firearms training as part of militia conscription. How is that very different than Americans that receive firearms training during hunting and target practice places at and early age and grow up to be responsible firearm owners?

Let me count the ways:

1. Government. Big, strike that, BIG government. Switzerland got it, US don't. It is indeed an irony when advocates of liberty want to site Switzerland as a justification for the gun culture in the US.

2. Control over weapons. The weapons that Swiss national guard members have are militia-issue weapons, not some random guy walking into a shop and buying a semiautomatic weapon as it happens in the US.

3. Control over ammunition. The Swiss government strictly regulates ammunition, and audits the use of ammunition. It is not a free-for-all like it is in the US.

4. Trend line towards more control over guns: In the last few decades, Switzerland has moved towards more control over its guns and ammunition. America has moved away from it.

5. Gun deaths: Gun-related deaths per capita are very low in Switzerland. They are at the rich world's highest level in the US. In that respect, the US is comparable to Iraq and Afghanistan, so let's not kid ourselves about the comparison with Switzerland.

by Propagandhi711 Wed Aug 08, 2012 1:55 pm

panini press wrote:
Propagandhi711 wrote:
panini press wrote:
Propagandhi711 wrote:The key is proper firearms training, both in the case of Switzerland and in case of vast majority of legit fireArms users
In Switzerland, proper military training is mandatory before you get to keep a weapon at home. No such deal with gun-loving crazies in the US.

What's so special about military training again? Do you think straight shooting and gun safety are some exclusive domain knowledge of military? If you do, you have a very deep misunderstanding of America's gun culture as it practiced by majority of gun owners.
I didn't argue that there was something special about military training. My emphasis is on training. So any random crazy can't walk into a shop and busy an assault weapon that can fire many rounds without reloading.

This wade guy wasnt a random crazy..he owned weapons legally...also the same with that phd nut in denver..

Question is how do you protect against nuts in the society that are growing weirder everyday? Your answer is let's take everyone's guns away and leave ppl at mercy of police force..it's no more valid than the extremist position that says all guns should be available to every one

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