about time difficult questions are asked of harvard, princeton, and yale

by MaxEntropy_Man Thu Dec 20, 2012 2:03 pm

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/20/opinion/asians-too-smart-for-their-own-good.html?hp&_r=0

by MaxEntropy_Man Thu Dec 20, 2012 2:13 pm

blog from which carolyn chen drew her data:

http://www.theamericanconservative.com/new-york-times-asian-american-quotas-in-the-ivy-league/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=new-york-times-asian-american-quotas-in-the-ivy-league

look at caltech and look at the ivy-leagues.

by Petrichor Thu Dec 20, 2012 2:16 pm

Although the conservatives' motive for bringing up the Asian stats is to take a broad swipe at affirmative action, it does bring up interesting questions that these colleges will find difficult to answer. The stats are pretty glaring and in the last 20 years the percentage of Asians in these colleges have actually halved (with respect to the chances).

The token admission officer's view that Asians are simply ace test takers is an insulting trope that parrots the general stereotype. Wonder what the status of the cases that were filed recently by asians, is.

by MaxEntropy_Man Thu Dec 20, 2012 2:18 pm

i side with the conservatives 100% on affirmative action.

by Rishi Thu Dec 20, 2012 2:25 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:i side with the conservatives 100% on affirmative action.

Why?

Please explain.

Are you for completely getting rid of the affirmative action for college admissions?

by MaxEntropy_Man Thu Dec 20, 2012 2:26 pm

Rishi wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:i side with the conservatives 100% on affirmative action.

Why?

Please explain.

Are you for completely getting rid of the affirmative action for college admissions?

yes i am.

another related blog:
http://www.aei-ideas.org/2012/12/at-the-ivies-asians-are-the-new-jews/

The Ivies would have us believe that their holistic admissions
policies limit Asian admissions because Asian applicants tend to be
one-dimensional, obsessed with academics to the exclusion of all those
wonderful other personal experiences that the Ivies value so highly. I
submit that this is nonsense. An abundance of Asian applicants have
punched all the right extracurricular and community-service tickets to
go along with theirsensational academic credentials, and
there’s no reason to think that Asian young people are, on average, any
less compassionate, charming, industrious, or otherwise of good
character than applicants of other races.

I propose this challenge to any Ivy League school that denies it has a de facto quota for Asian admissions. Let
a third party—any number of highly respected research organizations
could handle this task—randomly select a large sample of applications
from which the 2012 entering class was selected. Delete all material
identifying race or ethnicity. Then, applying the criteria and the weighting system that the university claims to be using,
have expert judges make simulated admissions decisions. Let’s see what
percentage of Asians get in under race-blind conditions. I’m betting 25%
at least, with 30–40% as more probable.

by MaxEntropy_Man Thu Dec 20, 2012 2:31 pm

Rishi wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:i side with the conservatives 100% on affirmative action.

Why?

Please explain.

Are you for completely getting rid of the affirmative action for college admissions?

the place to ensure a level playing field is in K-12 education. instead of doing that the american educational system corrects by denying deserving people the opportunities they seek in higher education. bass ackwards. and worse they go a step further and mete out punishment to one particular group in greater numbers than the majority population.

by MaxEntropy_Man Thu Dec 20, 2012 2:34 pm

it is ironic that for many of us, one of the driving forces to emigrate from india is to escape reverse discrimination! this feels like escaping the frying pan only to fall into the fire.

by Petrichor Thu Dec 20, 2012 2:40 pm

Like the fiscal cliff negotiations, the "truth" is somewhere in between.

I wouldn't want to go to a college that had a 75% asian cohort and token black/hispanic presence. I would like to see a fairly distributed proportionality in the cohort that is not *too* divergent from the population from which it is derived.

Having said that, I do not also want to see "collusive" behavior that artificially creates higher hurdles for Asians that results in admit numbers not keeping pace with population growth of Asian Americans and further, does not give credit for the better academic performance of Asians in general.

Yes,...yes...private selective colleges can do whatever the f**K they want but like that memorable line in the movie Contender, "Have you no shame or decency, Sir?!" is a question I would love to ask these colleges.

by MaxEntropy_Man Thu Dec 20, 2012 2:43 pm

atcg wrote:Like the fiscal cliff negotiations, the "truth" is somewhere in between.

I wouldn't want to go to a college that had a 75% asian cohort and token black/hispanic presence. I would like to see a fairly distributed proportionality in the cohort that is not *too* divergent from the population from which it is derived.

Having said that, I do not also want to see "collusive" behavior that artificially creates higher hurdles for Asians that results in admit numbers not keeping pace with population growth of Asian Americans and further, does not give credit for the better academic performance of Asians in general.

Yes,...yes...private selective colleges can do whatever the f**K they want but like that memorable line in the movie Contender, "Have you no shame or decency, Sir?!" is a question I would love to ask these colleges.

these universities have massive endowments. how about parting with some of that as donations to the worst performing school districts and undertaking a massive effort in improving K-12 education? how about sending some of their own education experts into these schools as short term assignments?

by Petrichor Thu Dec 20, 2012 2:50 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

these universities have massive endowments. how about parting with some of that as donations to the worst performing school districts and undertaking a massive effort in improving K-12 education? how about sending some of their own education experts into these schools as short term assignments?

They certainly do that...there are lots of volunteering opportunities to go teach middle schools in Trenton and outreach efforts to Camden etc. And I have heard of Harvard education experts using under-performing school districts as a crucible to test out their innovations in pedagogy. Fixing K-12 is a multi-factor problem that requires bigger effort than what the nerds can bring to the table. And I do not believe funding is the main issue that causes under-performance in the first place.

by Petrichor Thu Dec 20, 2012 3:06 pm

Too bad the Indian family probably ran out of money or got admission!!

http://www.thecrimson.com/article/2012/2/17/admissions-department-education-withdrawn/

by Guest Thu Dec 20, 2012 3:17 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:it is ironic that for many of us, one of the driving forces to emigrate from india is to escape reverse discrimination! this feels like escaping the frying pan only to fall into the fire.

how are children who are half-asian, half-white classified?

by MaxEntropy_Man Thu Dec 20, 2012 3:21 pm

atcg wrote:Too bad the Indian family probably ran out of money or got admission!!

http://www.thecrimson.com/article/2012/2/17/admissions-department-education-withdrawn/

one of the quotes in the comments section, apparently first made by bernie madoff is very funny.

"if friends do the audit, you never fear jail."

by MaxEntropy_Man Thu Dec 20, 2012 3:22 pm

Rashmun wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:it is ironic that for many of us, one of the driving forces to emigrate from india is to escape reverse discrimination! this feels like escaping the frying pan only to fall into the fire.

how are children who are half-asian, half-white classified?

you can check off whatever you want. if i was the half kid, and i wanted admission, i'd probably check myself white.

by MaxEntropy_Man Thu Dec 20, 2012 3:25 pm

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/education/story/2011-12-03/asian-students-college-applications/51620236/1

by MaxEntropy_Man Fri Dec 21, 2012 2:01 am

http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/the-myth-of-american-meritocracy/

i think holistic is just ivy league euphemism for "non metrical ways to reject you". i think a lot of our friends, older d's friends' parents are in for a huge disappointment.

by Petrichor Fri Dec 21, 2012 10:09 am

atcg wrote: Having said that, I do not also want to see "collusive" behavior that artificially creates higher hurdles for Asians that results in admit numbers not keeping pace with population growth of Asian Americans and further, does not give credit for the better academic performance of Asians in general.

about time difficult questions are asked of harvard, princeton, and yale Asians-large

Errata: Just want to place on record that this graph is a self-serving one and a more careful analysis of individual lines of the graph is merited for drawing any conclusions. It has been brought to my attention that the *orange* line indeed doubles over the time horizon in line with the Asian Americans' numbers during the period Smile

LHS scale is percentages and RHS is absolute numbers; made to look like caltech line is aligned with population growth line even though they use two different scales; does not contain population growth of other races; all the squiggly lines at the bottom bunched together to create an impression of flat-lining.

Oh well...so much for 'trusting' the conservatives!

by MaxEntropy_Man Fri Dec 21, 2012 10:25 am

i agree need to look at this data closer.

by confuzzled dude Fri Dec 21, 2012 10:26 am

Leave Ivy league colleges alone, Fairfax county school board is trying their best to limit Asian student populace in TJs (Thomas Jefferson Science & technology), one of the schools mentioned in the article. Actually that might take some burden off of Harvard's of the world Smile

they won't look bad after all.

by Petrichor Fri Dec 21, 2012 10:30 am

50K a year to get Erratas... is an expensive proposition! Smile

by MaxEntropy_Man Fri Dec 21, 2012 10:33 am

one thing is clear. we can let princeton out of jail. hope that makes you happy.

by Petrichor Fri Dec 21, 2012 10:33 am

confuzzled dude wrote:Leave Ivy league colleges alone, Fairfax county school board is trying their best to limit Asian student populace in TJs (Thomas Jefferson Science & technology), one of the schools mentioned in the article. Actually that might take some burden off of Harvard's of the world they won't look bad after all.

There is also a concerted effort to dilute Stuy testing in NYC.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/28/nyregion/specialized-high-school-admissions-test-is-racially-discriminatory-complaint-says.html

by MaxEntropy_Man Fri Dec 21, 2012 10:37 am

atcg wrote:
confuzzled dude wrote:Leave Ivy league colleges alone, Fairfax county school board is trying their best to limit Asian student populace in TJs (Thomas Jefferson Science & technology), one of the schools mentioned in the article. Actually that might take some burden off of Harvard's of the world they won't look bad after all.

There is also a concerted effort to dilute Stuy testing in NYC.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/28/nyregion/specialized-high-school-admissions-test-is-racially-discriminatory-complaint-says.html

again a case of wrong priorities. catch 'em young and do what's necessary.

by Jeremiah Mburuburu Fri Dec 21, 2012 11:52 am

here are some more Qs:

1. how much did asians contribute to the enormous resources that were put together to found and develop harvard, yale, and princeton? (their total endowment is about $75 billion, for an average of $25 billion each. 33% of yale's operating budget comes from its endowment, and only 10% from tuition and other payments by students.) how much or what percent have asians contributed to these universities in the last fifteen years?

2. how many reputable universities have the brahmins and the other upper castes of india founded and developed in india?

by MaxEntropy_Man Fri Dec 21, 2012 12:10 pm

Jeremiah Mburuburu wrote:here are some more Qs:

1. how much did asians contribute to the enormous resources that were put together to found and develop harvard, yale, and princeton? (their total endowment is about $75 billion, for an average of $25 billion each. 33% of yale's operating budget comes from its endowment, and only 10% from tuition and other payments by students.) how much or what percent have asians contributed to these universities in the last fifteen years?

2. how many reputable universities have the brahmins and the other upper castes of india founded and developed in india?

i am not sure why the second q is relevant to this discussion. so i won't answer that here.

with respect to question 1, i'd say not much at their founding, but their contribution to the endowment is probably increasing at a good clip. the only relevant part of that question should cover the time period from when they started accepting asian students in significant numbers to the present. asians were not a very significant part of the US population during their founding. in fact some of the asians suing the ivies have made the point that they are at a disadvantage wrt legacy admissions, because they have not had the time to build up a sufficient legacy with them.

i am not opposed to legacy admissions. maybe you misunderstood me. however, i fail to see the difference between an asian student who has no legacy with the ivies and a white student who has no legacy with the ivies, and who are of equal merit in measurable categories of accomplishment. neither have ancestral connections to them. the only difference between them is their race.

by Petrichor Fri Dec 21, 2012 1:15 pm

The more I think about it,

1. Asian Americans are 6% of the overall US population
2. Approximately 14-18% of a typical Ivy cohort is Asian American.
3. The excess over the 6% is the premium for Asian academic excellence.
4. Okay, so pure test-based cohort would be 74% asian american - the shortfall is 60%, ascribed to legacies, non-metricals, beautiful girls, athletes, rich and famous people who contribute buildings, ...

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Sat Dec 22, 2012 2:40 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/20/opinion/asians-too-smart-for-their-own-good.html?hp&_r=0

This same shyt happens not just in college admissions, but across diferent professions at various levels. The whites are just being normal and regular humans, and want to take their country to the levels of a normal, regular country.

by truthbetold Sat Dec 22, 2012 7:36 pm

Actg,
The Asian quota seems to be slightly higher on medical profession. It is between 19 to 20 percent across the nation except in California. In ca more than 55 percent of medical degrees were awarded to Asians.

by Petrichor Sun Dec 23, 2012 7:23 pm

atcg wrote:The more I think about it,

1. Asian Americans are 6% of the overall US population
2. Approximately 14-18% of a typical Ivy cohort is Asian American.
3. The excess over the 6% is the premium for Asian academic excellence.
4. Okay, so pure test-based cohort would be 74% asian american - the shortfall is 60%, ascribed to legacies, non-metricals, beautiful girls, athletes, rich and famous people who contribute buildings, ...

It appears that the real tragedy is lack of socio-economic diversity and not race - apparently the well-oiled and fiscally conservative pockets of Asian families have ensured *adequate* catch-up. At least this is the current received wisdom in these campuses.

by garam_kuta Sun Dec 23, 2012 8:08 pm

atcg wrote:
atcg wrote:The more I think about it,

1. Asian Americans are 6% of the overall US population
2. Approximately 14-18% of a typical Ivy cohort is Asian American.
3. The excess over the 6% is the premium for Asian academic excellence.
4. Okay, so pure test-based cohort would be 74% asian american - the shortfall is 60%, ascribed to legacies, non-metricals, beautiful girls, athletes, rich and famous people who contribute buildings, ...

It appears that the real tragedy is lack of socio-economic diversity and not race - apparently the well-oiled and fiscally conservative pockets of Asian families have ensured *adequate* catch-up. At least this is the current received wisdom in these campuses.

sure, it is the lack of diversity among asians - they are all perceived to be the same, but in the other group, each one is very different, na ? - there is the cool ones, the nerdy, the laid-back, the sports type etc etc., bringing in the vaunted diversity, yeah ?

by MaxEntropy_Man Sun Dec 23, 2012 8:50 pm

garam_kuta wrote:
atcg wrote:
atcg wrote:The more I think about it,

1. Asian Americans are 6% of the overall US population
2. Approximately 14-18% of a typical Ivy cohort is Asian American.
3. The excess over the 6% is the premium for Asian academic excellence.
4. Okay, so pure test-based cohort would be 74% asian american - the shortfall is 60%, ascribed to legacies, non-metricals, beautiful girls, athletes, rich and famous people who contribute buildings, ...

It appears that the real tragedy is lack of socio-economic diversity and not race - apparently the well-oiled and fiscally conservative pockets of Asian families have ensured *adequate* catch-up. At least this is the current received wisdom in these campuses.

sure, it is the lack of diversity among asians - they are all perceived to be the same, but in the other group, each one is very different, na ? - there is the cool ones, the nerdy, the laid-back, the sports type etc etc., bringing in the vaunted diversity, yeah ?

well said.

by Petrichor Mon Dec 24, 2012 1:54 am

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/23/education/poor-students-struggle-as-class-plays-a-greater-role-in-success.html?src=me&ref=general&_r=0

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Tue Dec 25, 2012 7:35 pm

garam_kuta wrote:

sure, it is the lack of diversity among asians - they are all perceived to be the same, but in the other group, each one is very different, na ? - there is the cool ones, the nerdy, the laid-back, the sports type etc etc., bringing in the vaunted diversity, yeah ?

It takes at least a couple of generations to begin to see the diversification. The immigrant grandfather has to disappear from the scene for the diversification to take hold and the disconnect with the "mother country" to show up.

by Rishi Thu Dec 27, 2012 10:23 am

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:
garam_kuta wrote:

sure, it is the lack of diversity among asians - they are all perceived to be the same, but in the other group, each one is very different, na ? - there is the cool ones, the nerdy, the laid-back, the sports type etc etc., bringing in the vaunted diversity, yeah ?

It takes at least a couple of generations to begin to see the diversification. The immigrant grandfather has to disappear from the scene for the diversification to take hold and the disconnect with the "mother country" to show up.

The problem is this: These kids have not been taught self discipline. Period. They should have avoided all the distractions like their boyfriends who were bunch of losers, drugs and booze etc.

Just focus on what you were in the college for: education.

BTW the following comment about the article is very instructive.

Lynn in DCUm, DCNYT

Wow, I can so relate. I was in their shoes as a teenager from the Bronx and I was determined to make a better life for myself. Getting off the island depends on a mix of drive, luck, the young person's ability to ignore "you think you're better than us" accusations from family and most important, avoiding things that will derail advancement such as unmotivated peers, drugs and pregnancy. I wish these three women the best. I know how hard it is.

by Rishi Thu Dec 27, 2012 10:34 am

I could somewhat relate to this article. When I was in graduate school, I could not get any financial support in the beginning. I worked as a dishwasher for 20 hours a week. It was backbreaking. There was hardly anytime or energy to study.

by truthbetold Thu Dec 27, 2012 12:37 pm

Rishi,
Financial support in us universities is first offered to us citizens because they pay the taxes to fund the universities.
Second in line are exceptional international students.
If any money is left then rest of the crowd is invited.
What is wrong with that logic?
In terms of 20 hrs of work, an average undergraduate american student works more than 20 hours.
We got the opportunities in us because finance is tough and education is even tougher. The toughness reduces competetion and gives the non citizens a chance.

by MaxEntropy_Man Thu Dec 27, 2012 12:42 pm

truthbetold wrote:
Financial support in us universities is first offered to us citizens because they pay the taxes to fund the universities.

financial support in grad school is offered to the best qualified students, the ones who have the greatest potential to make an impact on a department's or a specific research group's research program, regardless of national origin. the federal funding agencies don't insist on domestic students being hired. given two equally well qualified students, however, the slot goes to the domestic student. the only exception to this is a domestic student who brings her own funding obtained through an individual fellowship.

by truthbetold Thu Dec 27, 2012 1:04 pm

Max,

My observation is that average us citizens get significantly more points for financial assistance than international students.

by Petrichor Thu Dec 27, 2012 1:19 pm

W: We were shocked that our grant has gone down 50% this year. We like everything here except the grant.
Dir, Finaid: We were equally shocked that your income went up by 200%. Do you have any idea what percentile of population falls below you?
W: Our expenses went up 2000% - we went from wfh to commute, we had to hire a cook, housekeeper, valet and nanny since we worked 24x7.
Dir, Finaid: We are just going to act, with our noses up in the air, like we belong in Downton Abbey - we will just reduce the grant 25%.
W: Fine, be that way.
Dir, Finaid: Happy holidays to you too!

by Rishi Thu Dec 27, 2012 1:23 pm

Angelica kept making A’s on her way to a four-year grade-point average of 3.9. “Amazingly bright and dedicated,” one instructor wrote. A score of 1,240 on the math and reading portions of her SAT ranked her at the 84th percentile nationwide. When the German teacher suddenly quit, the school tapped her to finish teaching the first-year course.

Angelica found a campus job she loved, repairing library books. It was solitary and artistic work, and it attracted a small sisterhood of women who appreciated her grandmother’s tamales and her streak of purple hair. One day her boss, Julie Newton, overheard her excitedly talking about Hegel.

“She was an extremely intelligent woman and an unusual one,” she said.

Yet even as Angelica’s work hours grew, so did the rigor of her coursework. Meetings with faculty advisers were optional and Angelica did not consult hers. When it came time to declare a major, she had a B-plus average in the humanities and D’s in psychology. She chose psychology.

When Angelica finally found a way to express herself, she did so silently. Her final piece for a sculpture class was a papier-mâché baby, sprouting needles like a porcupine. No one could mistake the statement of her own vulnerability.

“It was a shocking piece,” said her professor, Linda Armstrong. “She had a way of using art to tap into her deepest emotions and feelings. I don’t think she understood how good she was.”

Angelica should have decided her major based on her previous successes. She was not thinking clearly. Why choose to major in Psychology when you get a D in Psych 101?

She could have majored in a foreign language like German or Art. She did not get good advice.

by MaxEntropy_Man Wed Jan 09, 2013 8:03 am

Jeremiah Mburuburu wrote:here are some more Qs:

1. how much did asians contribute to the enormous resources that were put together to found and develop harvard, yale, and princeton? (their total endowment is about $75 billion, for an average of $25 billion each. 33% of yale's operating budget comes from its endowment, and only 10% from tuition and other payments by students.) how much or what percent have asians contributed to these universities in the last fifteen years?

i was correct in observing that asian americans are still relatively new in the US and their low rates of contributions reflects this fact. this article is not about contributions to the ivies, but the same idea. as the length of time of asian american presence in the US increases, their rates of giving will also go up.

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