History of american funding in Pak

by .|Sublime|. Mon May 30, 2011 11:20 am

US support for Pakistan - A long messy history
Nicely written.

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2011/05/16/110516fa_fact_wright

Annals of Diplomacy
The Double Game
The unintended consequences of American funding in Pakistan.
by Lawrence Wright May 16, 2011

It’s the end of the Second World War, and the United States is deciding what to do about two immense, poor, densely populated countries in Asia. America chooses one of the countries, becoming its benefactor. Over the decades, it pours billions of dollars into that country’s economy, training and equipping its military and its intelligence services. The stated goal is to create a reliable ally with strong institutions and a modern, vigorous democracy. The other country, meanwhile, is spurned because it forges alliances with America’s enemies.

The country not chosen was India, which “tilted” toward the Soviet Union during the Cold War. Pakistan became America’s protégé, firmly supporting its fight to contain Communism. The benefits that Pakistan accrued from this relationship were quickly apparent: in the nineteen-sixties, its economy was an exemplar. India, by contrast, was a byword for basket case. Fifty years then went by. What was the result of this social experiment?

by Merlot Daruwala Mon May 30, 2011 12:07 pm

Well written article. And yet, the US is caught in a bind. Far from strengthening the civilian govt as the writer imagines, cutting off aid could very well sever relations with the only pro-American institution (even if only for the money) in Pakistan - the military.

Given the high levels of popular anger and hatred for the US in the Pakistani street, no civilian administration can embrace the US without military support. Worse still, the US will lose its only leverage and an out-of-control pariah state can do far more damage than the writer thinks.

by Guest Mon May 30, 2011 12:46 pm

extremely brilliant (to borrow a phrase) article. thanks for posting this. i will respond later.

by .|Sublime|. Mon May 30, 2011 12:53 pm

Merlot Daruwala wrote:
Given the high levels of popular anger and hatred for the US in the Pakistani street, no civilian administration can embrace the US without military support. Worse still, the US will lose its only leverage and an out-of-control pariah state can do far more damage than the writer thinks.

Basically the US is caught between scylla and charybdis. there is no good solution. pak military is far too powerful and cannot be dismissed. any civilian govt has to have their support and the military is not likely to stand behind a strong civilian govt. pak taliban is strengthening its presence and it will make life miserable for any govt that is not sympathetic to it.

by charvaka Mon May 30, 2011 12:59 pm

Merlot Daruwala wrote:Well written article. And yet, the US is caught in a bind. Far from strengthening the civilian govt as the writer imagines, cutting off aid could very well sever relations with the only pro-American institution (even if only for the money) in Pakistan - the military.

How is that going to be significantly worse than the current state of affairs? Today the US is a few billions of dollars poorer every year AND Pakistan harbors OBL a mile away from their West Point and gets US convoys burnt periodically. Severing relations with the military will make the outcome worse how? They can at least keep the blackmail money (let's not call it "aid")
and shoot more openly at the Pakis.

Merlot Daruwala wrote:Given the high levels of popular anger and hatred for the US in the
Pakistani street, no civilian administration can embrace the US without
military support. Worse still, the US will lose its only leverage and an
out-of-control pariah state can do far more damage than the writer
thinks.

That popular anger... that's primarily nurtured by the Paki state which
fattened itself on American largesse, but neglected to tell its citizens
where the money was coming from.

by charvaka Mon May 30, 2011 1:04 pm

.|Sublime|. wrote:
Basically the US is caught between scylla and charybdis. there is no good solution. pak military is far too powerful and cannot be dismissed. any civilian govt has to have their support and the military is not likely to stand behind a strong civilian govt. pak taliban is strengthening its presence and it will make life miserable for any govt that is not sympathetic to it.

The Taliban takeover of Pakistan is a matter of when, not if. The monster that the Paki elites have bred in order to fight India will consume them first. The longer the US gives money to the elites, the stronger the Paki state that the Taliban will take over.

I think it is time the US faced up to the reality. What are they fighting in Afghanistan anyway? Are they trying to prevent Afghanistan from becoming a safe haven for Al Qaeda? Why bother; Pakistan IS a much bigger safe haven for Al Qaeda. Get the hell out of Afghanistan, reduce your dependence on Paki cooperation, and fight the Pakis the same way you fight Iran. Isolate, sanction, deny visas to government officials, prevent the children of Paki military leaders from going to US universities.

by Guest Mon May 30, 2011 1:20 pm

.|Sublime|. wrote:Basically the US is caught between scylla and charybdis.

what are these? SI super hot chillis?

pak military is far too powerful and cannot be dismissed.

hah! did you read the article? pak military has not won a single war. their major contributions are malls, theme parks, high end residential areas and foreign exchange spent on students living in condos in lower manhattan.

any civilian govt has to have their support and the military is not likely to stand behind a strong civilian govt.

you have to realize that your (USA) intervention does not help install a civilian govt. the situation is such now that it cannot get any worse! maybe if you move away, IT might happen?

pak taliban is strengthening its presence and it will make life miserable for any govt that is not sympathetic to it.

true. pakistan has sold al qaida for a price that they have been paid in the last ten years. now LeT is going to be the new monster that will pay them off in time.

but, my impression is that USA has NO foreign policy -- not since the end of the second world war. the article shows them as a well meaning idiot who has only done patchwork to fix problems. it is understandable 'cos you cannot have a sustainable foreign policy in an unpredictable world. that being the case (since there is no larger we-must-democratize-them philosophy to their relations with pakistan) they should pull out of pakistan and let nature take it's course. you cannot control the world and not YOU (a bumbling, falling, giant, america).

by Guest Mon May 30, 2011 1:33 pm

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:
but, my impression ...

...gleaned from the article.

by charvaka Mon May 30, 2011 1:37 pm

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:
.|Sublime|. wrote:Basically the US is caught between scylla and charybdis.
what are these? SI super hot chillis?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scylla_and_Charybdis

by charvaka Mon May 30, 2011 1:38 pm

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:
.|Sublime|. wrote:Basically the US is caught between scylla and charybdis.
what are these? SI super hot chillis?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scylla_and_Charybdis

by Guest Mon May 30, 2011 1:42 pm

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2011/05/16/110516fa_fact_wright wrote:India would no doubt welcome a reduction in military aid to Pakistan, and the U.S. could use this as leverage to pressure India to allow the Kashmiris to vote on their future, which would very likely be a vote for independence. These two actions might do far more to enhance Pakistan’s stability, and to insure its friendship, than the billions of dollars that America now pays like a ransom.

despite the author's expose on the lack of a "sustainable" US foreign policy on south asia, he himself falls victim to the idealistic thoughts all americans nurture. you cannot doctor events now (not that you could in the SA region in the past).

by Guest Mon May 30, 2011 1:46 pm

charvaka wrote:
Huzefa Kapasi wrote:
.|Sublime|. wrote:Basically the US is caught between scylla and charybdis.
what are these? SI super hot chillis?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scylla_and_Charybdis

hot! wouldn't want to try them. i'll pass.

by charvaka Mon May 30, 2011 1:57 pm

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2011/05/16/110516fa_fact_wright wrote:India would no doubt welcome a reduction in military aid to Pakistan, and the U.S. could use this as leverage to pressure India to allow the Kashmiris to vote on their future, which would very likely be a vote for independence. These two actions might do far more to enhance Pakistan’s stability, and to insure its friendship, than the billions of dollars that America now pays like a ransom.

despite the author's expose on the lack of a "sustainable" US foreign policy on south asia, he himself falls victim to the idealistic thoughts all americans nurture. you cannot doctor events now (not that you could in the SA region in the past).

Yeah, that prescription indicates his lack of understanding of ground realities. India doesn't much care for American military aid to Pakistan. It knows that American finances are thinly stretched, and given the tensions in the US-Pak relationship, there is only one way for that aid to go. So why would India give anything as important as the future of Kashmir up for something as inevitable as the reduction in US military aid to Pakistan?

The other demonstration of the author's naivete comes from his implicit belief that you can somehow "insure" Pakistan's friendship. There is NOTHING America can do that can "insure" that friendship. They are paying pretty high premiums under the mistaken assumption that they are insuring something with that money; but that insurance is no more valuable than credit default swaps were.

by confuzzled dude Mon May 30, 2011 7:14 pm

"India has become the state that we tried to create in Pakistan."

Really! US trying to make a country better. Who do you think you're fooling Mr. Wright, you're not so right in this context.

The Reagan Administration also provided three billion dollars to Afghan jihadis.

This is precisely what I'm afraid of with NATO forces supporting rebels in Libya, though this is slightly different situation one can't help but wonder another Kashmir like situation in making.

That November, Lashkar-e-Taiba, a terrorist organization that has reportedly received backing from the I.S.I. to wage jihad in Kashmir

That's it!? Whose strategy was it to send Afghan mujahideens to Kashmir? who provided materials and military supplies to them? and who was responsible for the fate of 400,000 Kashmiri pandits who became refugees and forced out of their own state.

India would no doubt welcome a reduction in military aid to Pakistan, and the U.S. could use this as leverage to pressure India to allow the Kashmiris to vote on their future, which would very likely be a vote for independence

OKAY Mr. Nostradamus, you probably are also a big believer of those end of the world theories.

IMO, athough some of the tidbits of the artcile come across a neutral, overall, he was trying to put the blame squarely on Pakistan's shoulder. The US shares quite a bit of blame for the terrible faux pas whether or not the consequences were intended.

by confuzzled dude Mon May 30, 2011 7:18 pm

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:extremely brilliant (to borrow a phrase) article. thanks for posting this. i will respond later.

hahaha! I share the same sentiment.

by confuzzled dude Mon May 30, 2011 7:30 pm

.|Sublime|. wrote: Basically the US is caught between scylla and charybdis. there is no good solution.

That's been the name of the game. It's never our fault, always theirs, USSR or Iraq or Pakistan.

by .|Sublime|. Tue May 31, 2011 12:41 am

charvaka wrote:So why would India give anything as important as the future of Kashmir up for something as inevitable as the reduction in US military aid to Pakistan?

i agree with everything you said and it would be great if indian foreign policy had direction and determination. lately it has been subservient. domestic policy is ineffective too. common sense dictates that if the govt is genuinely interested in improving the situation it would put a system in place that does not alienate the people. instead ground reality shows that people are disgusted with the way the govt/army treats its citizens. if it wanted, the govt can make a huge difference in the day to day lives of people. this would soothe them and give them less reason to get attracted to militancy. there will always been some disgruntled elements goaded into militancy but it will not be of the scale we see now with mothers and sisters taking to the streets.
and it is not just kashmir. the north east is also in the same state. ostrich head in the sand policy.

The other demonstration of the author's naivete comes from his implicit belief that you can somehow "insure" Pakistan's friendship. There is NOTHING America can do that can "insure" that friendship. They are paying pretty high premiums under the mistaken assumption that they are insuring something with that money; but that insurance is no more valuable than credit default swaps were.

this says it all.

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2011/05/16/110516fa_fact_wright wrote:
What would happen if the Pakistani military actually captured or killed Al Qaeda’s top leaders? The great flow of dollars would stop, just as it had in Afghanistan after the Soviets limped away. I realized that, despite all the suffering the war on terror had brought to Pakistan, the military was addicted to the money it generated. The Pakistani Army and the I.S.I. were in the looking-for-bin-Laden business, and if they found him they’d be out of business.

americans are not fools. they knew what was happening but at the time it suited them to turn a blind eye.

by .|Sublime|. Tue May 31, 2011 12:43 am

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:
charvaka wrote:
Huzefa Kapasi wrote:
.|Sublime|. wrote:Basically the US is caught between scylla and charybdis.
what are these? SI super hot chillis?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scylla_and_Charybdis

hot! wouldn't want to try them. i'll pass.

imo, in this context, it was more apt than just saying rock and a hard place.

by .|Sublime|. Tue May 31, 2011 12:44 am

confuzzled dude wrote:
.|Sublime|. wrote: Basically the US is caught between scylla and charybdis. there is no good solution.

That's been the name of the game. It's never our fault, always theirs, USSR or Iraq or Pakistan.

of course. always. you forgot libya.

by Guest Tue May 31, 2011 1:13 am

.|Sublime|. wrote:
charvaka wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scylla_and_Charybdis

imo, in this context, it was more apt than just saying rock and a hard place.

to be honest, i wasn't aware of this idiom. now i have to use it somewhere, sometime.

by .|Sublime|. Tue May 31, 2011 1:40 am

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:
.|Sublime|. wrote:
charvaka wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scylla_and_Charybdis

imo, in this context, it was more apt than just saying rock and a hard place.

to be honest, i wasn't aware of this idiom. now i have to use it somewhere, sometime.

there are words and then there are WORDS. it is so much more interesting when words have many layers to them. more dimensions. one such word is chutzpah. no other word can get to the essence of the meaning and feel that chutzpah has.
but it is so much more sexier to say the word!
another word that i had forgotten - probably from GRE cram lists - and which Max used in a thread is anodyne. that is another multi-layered word.

by charvaka Tue May 31, 2011 1:45 am

.|Sublime|. wrote:another word that i had forgotten - probably from GRE cram lists - and which Max used in a thread is anodyne. that is another multi-layered word.

Reminds me of the verses from Seth's poem on Diwali...

"But freedom?" the notes would sing...
Parole is enough. Tonight
Below the fire-crossed sky
Of the Festival of Light.

Give your soul leave to feel
What distilled peace it can;
In lieu of joy, at least
This lapsing anodyne.

"The world is a bridge. Pass over it,
Building no house upon it."
Acceptance may come with time;
Rest, then disquieted heart.

by Guest Tue May 31, 2011 1:56 am

just got reminded of one of my fav. seth poems:

Round and Round

After a long and wretched flight
That stretched from daylight into night,
Where babies wept and tempers shattered
And the plane lurched and whiskey splattered
Over my plastic food, I came
To claim my bags from Baggage Claim

Around, the carousel went around
The anxious travelers sought and found
Their bags, intact or gently battered,
But to my foolish eyes what mattered
Was a brave suitcase, red and small,
That circled round, not mine at all.

I knew that bag. It must be hers.
We hadnt met in seven years!
And as the metal plates squealed and clattered
My happy memories chimed and chattered.
An old man pulled it of the Claim.
My bags appeared: I did the same.

by charvaka Tue May 31, 2011 2:48 am

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:just got reminded of one of my fav. seth poems:

That in turn prompted me to look up this old CH thread. Sulekha's fucking incompetent "bug fix" has rendered the page almost unreadable, but a couple of my favorite Seth poems here...

http://forums.sulekha.com/forums/creative/diwali.htm

Sit
Sit, drink your coffee here; your work can wait awhile.
You're twenty-six, and still have some life ahead.
No need for wit; just talk vacuities, and I'll
Reciprocate in kind, or laugh at you instead.

The world is too opaque, distressing and profound.
This twenty minutes' rendezvous will make my day:
To sit here in the sun, with grackles all around,
Staring with beady eyes, and you two feet away.

Half out of Sleep
Half out of sleep I watch your sleeping face
Behind your eyelids' restlessness I see
A dream that waking may not quite displace:
If there were equity you'd dream of me.

Last Night (translation from Faiz's raat dil mein teri khoyi hui yaad aayi)
Last night your faded memory came to me
As in the wilderness spring comes quietly
As, slowly, in the desert, moves the breeze,
As, to a sick man, without cause, comes peace.

Research in Jiangsu Province
The Yangtse flows on like brown tape.
The research forms take final shape,
Each figure like a laden boat
With white or madder sails afloat.

Float on, float on, O facts and facts,
Distilled compendia of past acts,
Reveal the Grand Design to me,
Flotilla of my PhD.

by Guest Tue May 31, 2011 2:56 am

fantastic! thanks for posting. which anthology are these from? i don't seem to have come across them before. i like "sit" best. let me go over and read your diwali comment now (in that awful formatting).

by Guest Tue May 31, 2011 3:11 am

just read the whole poem and your references. it seems there are a lot of references in there, many of which you catch. babur's fondness for musk melons of ferghana seems something that sticks in every indian mind. angutha chaap babur, his melons and his candles.

by charvaka Tue May 31, 2011 3:13 am

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:fantastic! thanks for posting. which anthology are these from? i don't seem to have come across them before. i like "sit" best. let me go over and read your diwali comment now (in that awful formatting).

Penguin India put out a "Collected Poems" -- that is what I typed these out from. Last I checked, that is out of print (which is sad, because I wanted to buy a dozen or so copies to keep around and gift to people.) Most likely they are from Mappings, his first collection of poems. There was another one called All who sleep alone tonight or something like that. And Three Poets which was translations from three Chinese poets. I lent the book to a friend, so I can clarify the actual sources once I get it back.

by Kris Tue May 31, 2011 3:15 am

The one stuck in my mind for a long time, altho' I had to google for it now:

"While, bowed down with the gray futility
Of his dank thesis, Kim Tarvesh
Ogles convexities of flesh
And maximizes his utility
By drowning in his chilled Chablis
His economics Ph.D."

(Kim Tarvesh being an anagram of Vikram Seth)

by Guest Tue May 31, 2011 3:24 am

nice one! keith varms, another anagram, makes an appearance in "an equal music."

by Guest Tue May 31, 2011 3:25 am

charvaka wrote:Penguin India put out a "Collected Poems" -- that is what I typed these out from. Last I checked, that is out of print (which is sad, because I wanted to buy a dozen or so copies to keep around and gift to people.) Most likely they are from Mappings, his first collection of poems. There was another one called All who sleep alone tonight or something like that. And Three Poets which was translations from three Chinese poets. I lent the book to a friend, so I can clarify the actual sources once I get it back.

hmmm, i have "mappings." will check it out in the evening. maybe i did not read all the poems.

by Kris Tue May 31, 2011 3:29 am

I have lost track of him. He burst on the scene in the 80's when he was at Stanford and was lauded as the next Chaucer by the literati. I know he went back to India and wrote "A suitable boy" (?), but I think that was awhile ago.
Don't think he ever finished that economics phD. Smile

by .|Sublime|. Tue May 31, 2011 12:30 pm

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:
.|Sublime|. wrote:pak military is far too powerful and cannot be dismissed.
hah! did you read the article? pak military has not won a single war. their major contributions are malls, ......

pak may not have won any wars but the military is powerful enough that they can dictate who runs the country according to their demands. they are corrupt and arrogant - a powerful combination in subcontinent politics.

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:
.|Sublime|. wrote: any civilian govt has to have their support and the military is not likely to stand behind a strong civilian govt.
you have to realize that your (USA) intervention does not help install a civilian govt. the situation is such now that it cannot get any worse! maybe if you move away, IT might happen?

do you mean to say that the US has never installed a friendly civilian govt?
i agree that the situation is bad. yep, it cannot get any worse and i doubt it will get any better if it moves away. i am not saying it should stay.
all this does not change the fact that the US has bankrolled this. shortsighted US policies did not anticipate that their baby would be a frankenstein.
the US made its bed here and it is about time to lie down on it. too bad that it needs to get in bed with the al qaeda and pak taliban and pak military is watching through the one way mirror. after having opened the bank and given them the key, it is no use complaining now that your bedroom buddies will not do what you want them to do.

by .|Sublime|. Tue May 31, 2011 12:47 pm

charvaka wrote:Last Night (translation from Faiz's raat dil mein teri khoyi hui yaad aayi)
Last night your faded memory came to me
As in the wilderness spring comes quietly
As, slowly, in the desert, moves the breeze,
As, to a sick man, without cause, comes peace.

Nice, esp the diwali poem. It lends itself to multiple readings. and it reaffirms my belief that there really is no single word that can substitute for anodyne. love that word.

apologies to Seth but I do like the original urdu version better. had i not been able to understand urdu, i might like Seth's translation.

raat yuuN dil meN terii khoyii hu’ii yaad aayii
jaise viiraane meN chupke se bahaar aa jaaye
jaise sehraaoN meN hauley se chale baad-e-nasiim
jaise biimaar ko be-vajh qaraar aa jaaye

I would like to read this in devanagari but I am terrible at doing the itrans thing

by charvaka Tue May 31, 2011 12:55 pm

.|Sublime|. wrote:
charvaka wrote:Last Night (translation from Faiz's raat dil mein teri khoyi hui yaad aayi)
Last night your faded memory came to me
As in the wilderness spring comes quietly
As, slowly, in the desert, moves the breeze,
As, to a sick man, without cause, comes peace.

Nice, esp the diwali poem. It lends itself to multiple readings. and it reaffirms my belief that there really is no single word that can substitute for anodyne. love that word.

apologies to Seth but I do like the original urdu version better. had i not been able to understand urdu, i might like Seth's translation.

raat yuuN dil meN terii khoyii hu’ii yaad aayii
jaise viiraane meN chupke se bahaar aa jaaye
jaise sehraaoN meN hauley se chale baad-e-nasiim
jaise biimaar ko be-vajh qaraar aa jaaye

I would like to read this in devanagari but I am terrible at doing the itrans thing

रात यूं दिल में तेरी खोयी हुई याद आयी
जैसे वीराने में चुपके से बहार आ जाये
जैसे सॆहराओं में हौले से चले बाद-ऎ-नसीम
जैसे बीमार को बॆ-वजह क़रार आ जाये

by .|Sublime|. Tue May 31, 2011 1:02 pm

charvaka wrote:
रात यूं दिल में तेरी खोयी हुई याद आयी
जैसे वीराने में चुपके से बहार आ जाये
जैसे सॆहराओं में हौले से चले बाद-ऎ-नसीम
जैसे बीमार को बॆ-वजह क़रार आ जाये

cool. thanks

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