china v india today

by MaxEntropy_Man Sat Feb 02, 2013 10:30 am

http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/01/19/india-is-losing-the-race/

by pravalika nanda Sat Feb 02, 2013 10:43 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/01/19/india-is-losing-the-race/

** i think india is an amazing country. there are very few countries in the world where you can vote. given how backward we are, and so poor and uneducated we as a people value personal freedom and we supply it 1.7 billion people everyday. this guy only said that india would finish second, that's not losing. even if china wins the race, their billion people will never experience the kind of autonomy and happiness in the next 50 to 100 years. of course we must work hard for clean water and improve our literacy rates but i am very optimistic for india.

by truthbetold Sat Feb 02, 2013 12:05 pm

Pn,
well said.

by Kris Sat Feb 02, 2013 12:16 pm

truthbetold wrote:Pn,
well said.

Up to a point, what PN said is valid, but freedom alone is not sufficient.there are economic realities. India cannot afford to be left behind in the game.

by truthbetold Sat Feb 02, 2013 3:52 pm

Kris,
the idea of a race between china and india is like arm chair quaterbacking. It is more for the chatter heads than for the teams on the field.
There is no denying the facts. China is ahead of india in well known developmental statistics. But who in india uses that as a measure or crafts policies to match or beat china. If india is not a participant in the race why is it judged against china?
Indian people had ample chances to support communist or socialist or indira type dictorships. They were rejected. Call it democracy or whatever indian political system is what they got. It is a corrupt inefficient poorly planned and badly executed goverment.
Given all that, the question is can india improve the life of its citizens. The answer is slowly but surely.
What china does is important in a international sense . As a neighbour china has influence on indian defence and commerce. But indian problems have to be solved the indian way.

by Kris Sat Feb 02, 2013 4:05 pm

truthbetold wrote:Kris,
the idea of a race between china and india is like arm chair quaterbacking. It is more for the chatter heads than for the teams on the field.
There is no denying the facts. China is ahead of india in well known developmental statistics. But in india uses that as a measure or crafts policies to match or beat china. If india is not a participant in the race why is it judged against china?
Indian people had ample chances to support communist or socialist or indira type dictorships. They were rejected. Call it democracy or whatever indian political system is what they got. It is a corrupt inefficient poorly planned and badly executed goverment.
Given all that, the qurdtion is can india improve the life of its citizens. Slowly but surely.
What china does is important in a international sense . As a neighbour china has influence on indian defence and commerce. But indian problems have to be solved indian way.

>>>>TBT,

Quickly, I am not for framing the issue as a China-India p***ing contest either. That is an apples-oranges deal. That said, we need to be careful about giving the political establishment a way out. Our Indian talking heads will go to town with this 'democracy (such as it is) makes us superior' angle, as though it trumps all the serious issues stemming from lack of vision, corruption and overall malfeasance, It is in some ways this will become a reprise of bombay's "survival spirit" after a terrorist attack i.e. nothing done, status quo and self-praise over over it.

by Kayalvizhi Sat Feb 02, 2013 4:17 pm

I haVE posted this before. I post again hoping a few more here will see the truth.

If a citizen is not allowed tro contest election because the views he/she hold, then it isa not a democracy.

I was not allowed to vontest foir Tamil Nadu Assembly because I would not swear that I would uphold the unity and integrity of India. That is the point. I do not uphold the unity and integrity of India, and I am asking people of Tamil Nadu to vote for me. I know I will get a overwhelming majority and that is why India would not allow me to contest. So India is not a democracy.

by ashdoc Sat Feb 02, 2013 4:25 pm

china has achieved its growth at horrific cost . Mao murdered 70 million ( out of 700 million chinese then in the 1960s ) in pogroms deceptively called ' great leap forward ' and ' cultural revolution ' , thus effectively murdering 10 percent of china's population .

modern shanghai was rebuilt by throwing out 3 million of its poor people out of the city into some out of the way rural area where they were left to largely fend for themselves .

india's growth has been more humane . and democracy is the best option for us . thats because we are an extremely diverse land and only democracy can accomodate the aspirations of all religions castes and linguistic groups .

china has the advantage of being a much more homogeneous society ( 93 percent of china's population belongs to the main ethnic group---han chinese ) , so it can have a dictatorship . but india cant .

and because the aspirations of all groups have to be taken care of , growth is slower in a democratic diverse land like india because decision making is slow and chaotic .

on the other hand , in dictatorships like china hard decisions can be made quickly without consulting anybody . but they also can brutally affect some citizens .

india will have to continue its own way and it will be fatal to try to ape china's methods and ways .

by Kris Sat Feb 02, 2013 4:29 pm

Kayalvizhi wrote:I haVE posted this before. I post again hoping a few more here will see the truth.

If a citizen is not allowed tro contest election because the views he/she hold, then it isa not a democracy.

I was not allowed to vontest foir Tamil Nadu Assembly because I would not swear that I would uphold the unity and integrity of India. That is the point. I do not uphold the unity and integrity of India, and I am asking people of Tamil Nadu to vote for me. I know I will get a overwhelming majority and that is why India would not allow me to contest. So India is not a democracy.

>>>>It is possible that the tendency to have weird delusions is a disqualifier. Also, can you be a communist party member and obtain US citizenship? If not, does that stop the US from being a democracy?

by Propagandhi711 Sat Feb 02, 2013 4:51 pm

Human beings need to look at the glass as half full or they'd be too depressed to live

by Kayalvizhi Sat Feb 02, 2013 5:13 pm

Kris wrote: Also, can you be a communist party member and obtain US citizenship? If not, does that stop the US from being a democracy?

Obtaining citizenship is a privilge and not a right,

A US citizen who is a communist can contest elections. In fact US communists have contested in presidential elections. So US is democracy. India is not a democracy. CASE CLOSED.

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Sat Feb 02, 2013 5:14 pm

Kris wrote:
Kayalvizhi wrote:I haVE posted this before. I post again hoping a few more here will see the truth.

If a citizen is not allowed tro contest election because the views he/she hold, then it isa not a democracy.

I was not allowed to vontest foir Tamil Nadu Assembly because I would not swear that I would uphold the unity and integrity of India. That is the point. I do not uphold the unity and integrity of India, and I am asking people of Tamil Nadu to vote for me. I know I will get a overwhelming majority and that is why India would not allow me to contest. So India is not a democracy.

>>>>It is possible that the tendency to have weird delusions is a disqualifier. Also, can you be a communist party member and obtain US citizenship? If not, does that stop the US from being a democracy?

Forget all that. KV claims to be totally honest and never lies.

Did he say in his citizenship application/GC application that he was a supporter of LTTE and the Commander, who believe in armed resistance to achieve independence?

I bet KV will not answer this post.

by Kris Sat Feb 02, 2013 5:27 pm

Kayalvizhi wrote:
Kris wrote: Also, can you be a communist party member and obtain US citizenship? If not, does that stop the US from being a democracy?

Obtaining citizenship is a privilge and not a right,

A US citizen who is a communist can contest elections. In fact US communists have contested in presidential elections. So US is democracy. India is not a democracy. CASE CLOSED.

>>>> Likewise, since you claim you are not an Indian, India can withhold the right to contest elections from you. The argument that TN is not a part of India will hold no water here, since by the very act of fighting for its independence from India, you acknowledge that it a part of India now.

P.S. You didn't address the aspect of individuals prone to delusions not being allowed to contest. I don;t know if that is the case, but it should be, IMO.

by Kayalvizhi Sat Feb 02, 2013 10:43 pm

Kris wrote:since by the very act of fighting for its independence from India, you acknowledge that it a part of India now.
.

When DeGaulle fought German Nazi occupation of France, he did not say France is part of Germany. He said Germa ny was occupying France/

by Kris Sat Feb 02, 2013 11:42 pm

Kayalvizhi wrote:
Kris wrote:since by the very act of fighting for its independence from India, you acknowledge that it a part of India now.
.

When DeGaulle fought German Nazi occupation of France, he did not say France is part of Germany. He said Germa ny was occupying France/

>>>Did deGaulle complain that Germany didn't allow him to contest in the elections? More importantly, was deGaulle living in a country where 90%+ of the people didn't think there was any occupation and many would have dismissed him as a nutjob suffering from delusions?

by Idéfix Mon Feb 04, 2013 1:53 pm

Interesting article. IMO, both arguments -- "India will win because democracy is superior" and "India is losing" miss the point. This is not a race between India and China. Rather, within each country, it is a complex game involving many parameters: demographics (bound to get worse as the populations age with falling birth rates and rising longevity), economic development (bound to slow down as the base gets larger over time), environmental degradation (bound to get worse as scarce resources are exploited more and more intensively), and social progress (the so-called "revolution of rising expectations" that will accelerate before it slows down again in line with the first world). As of now, this complex game has progressed further in China than it has in India. (The game got started in earnest about 15 years before in China than it did in India). If you view this as a board game, you can say the game has gone on for more rounds in China than it has in India.

What matters in the long run is not how far the game has progressed in each country (i.e. how many rounds of the game we have had so far), but how the game ends: whether economic development keeps in step with society's rising expectations, keeps far enough ahead of environmental degradation to make it possible to remedy the damage, and happens long enough to leave the country rich before it gets old. As we get closer to the end game, the challenges will get harder, as China is finding out now with worsening demographics, slowing growth and accelerating environmental degradation.

by goodcitizn Mon Feb 04, 2013 2:05 pm

panini press wrote:Interesting article. IMO, both arguments -- "India will win because democracy is superior" and "India is losing" miss the point. This is not a race between India and China. Rather, within each country, it is a complex game involving many parameters: demographics (bound to get worse as the populations age with falling birth rates and rising longevity), economic development (bound to slow down as the base gets larger over time), environmental degradation (bound to get worse as scarce resources are exploited more and more intensively), and social progress (the so-called "revolution of rising expectations" that will accelerate before it slows down again in line with the first world). As of now, this complex game has progressed further in China than it has in India. (The game got started in earnest about 15 years before in China than it did in India). If you view this as a board game, you can say the game has gone on for more rounds in China than it has in India.

What matters in the long run is not how far the game has progressed in each country (i.e. how many rounds of the game we have had so far), but how the game ends: whether economic development keeps in step with society's rising expectations, keeps far enough ahead of environmental degradation to make it possible to remedy the damage, and happens long enough to leave the country rich before it gets old. As we get closer to the end game, the challenges will get harder, as China is finding out now with worsening demographics, slowing growth and accelerating environmental degradation.

Unfortunately, the game as you call it has no end unless there is a nuclear holocaust. But your point is well taken since both countries have a huge population base and to sustain it, a growing economy is a must. In my view China's totalitarian system can dictate quicker changes than India's highly disorganized, bureaucratic and corrupt democracy.

by Idéfix Mon Feb 04, 2013 2:06 pm

There is one respect in which the two almost-independent complex games played in India and China manifest themselves together as a simpler race. And that is in terms of competition for power. If India's game takes longer to develop, as it appears to be the case, China increase its comparative military superiority over India. If that military imbalance becomes too large, China may be tempted to use military confrontation to stop the game in India from playing out fully. This is why India needs to forge alliances and invest enough to keep the imbalance from getting much worse.

by Hellsangel Mon Feb 04, 2013 2:06 pm

BTW, who would not want to live in the 2nd most populous country in the world?

by Idéfix Mon Feb 04, 2013 2:19 pm

goodcitizn wrote:Unfortunately, the game as you call it has no end unless there is a nuclear holocaust.

What I mean by the game ending is this: at some point, the interplay between demographics, economic growth, environmental degradation and social progress in a developing country reaches a tipping point where it moves from high-growth mode into low-growth mode. At different times in history, Western Europe, the US, Japan, South Korea, etc. have all gone through those transitions. Basically the game of "rapidly rising incomes" ends, and a new game of "sustaining a high standard of living" begins. China started playing the game of "rapidly rising incomes" in the late 1970s; India started the game in the early 1990s. I suspect China will reach the end game in 20-30 years. India will likely take 50 or so years to get there. (Japan, by comparison, played that game between the late 1940s and the late 1980s).

goodcitizn wrote:But your point is well taken since both countries have a huge population base and to sustain it, a growing economy is a must.

Correct. For the current game to continue, economic growth has to stay in line with society's rising expectations. Otherwise, the country will go off the rails with serious social unrest -- the game will be abandoned well before the end is in sight.

goodcitizn wrote:In my view China's totalitarian system can dictate quicker changes than India's highly disorganized, bureaucratic and corrupt democracy.

I agree. I view this as China's game being played faster. Each "round" of the Chinese version of this board game takes less time, because the players don't have (or take) as much time to evaluate their moves, and they are more certain about their gameplan. In the Indian version, the players are torn between the choices they have to make, and they agonize about their moves. So each round takes a lot longer.

Here is a summary of how I see it: China risks an end game where it is too old and too polluted but not rich enough. India will take way too long to reach the end game, but when it gets there, it may be in a better position because its systems avoid big, bad decisions (while admittedly being amenable to lots of hurtful indecision).

by goodcitizn Mon Feb 04, 2013 2:40 pm

I like your post. Its late here so let me respond tomorrow. G'nite.

by Idéfix Mon Feb 04, 2013 2:49 pm

Hellsangel wrote:BTW, who would not want to live in the 2nd most populous country in the world?

True, but once you consider Bhutan, Sri Lanka, Maldives, Afghanistan and Myanmar, not to speak of Pakistan, Nepal and Bangladesh, India is actually the most populous country. Max said something that I am going to stretch to mean that this sort of creative reinterpretation is fine with him.

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Mon Feb 04, 2013 3:21 pm

panini press wrote:
Hellsangel wrote:BTW, who would not want to live in the 2nd most populous country in the world?
True, but once you consider Bhutan, Sri Lanka, Maldives, Afghanistan and Myanmar, not to speak of Pakistan, Nepal and Bangladesh, India is actually the most populous country. Max said something that I am going to stretch to mean that this sort of creative reinterpretation is fine with him.

You mean Akhand Bharat is the most populous country. Why not? After all Chinkus include Taiwan, HK, Macau, etc.

by Propagandhi711 Mon Feb 04, 2013 5:43 pm

panini press wrote:
Hellsangel wrote:BTW, who would not want to live in the 2nd most populous country in the world?
True, but once you consider Bhutan, Sri Lanka, Maldives, Afghanistan and Myanmar, not to speak of Pakistan, Nepal and Bangladesh, India is actually the most populous country. Max said something that I am going to stretch to mean that this sort of creative reinterpretation is fine with him.

by Captain Bhankas Tue Feb 05, 2013 12:04 pm

China

India

Conclusion: China > India X 100

by Idéfix Tue Feb 05, 2013 1:16 pm

Is Captain Bhankas the artist formerly known as Another Brick?

by Captain Bhankas Tue Feb 05, 2013 1:37 pm

Just another brick in the wall. We all are, aren't we?

by Idéfix Tue Feb 05, 2013 1:39 pm

Captain Bhankas wrote:Just another brick in the wall. We all are, aren't we?

Nice, welcome back! You have been missed.

by Guest Tue Feb 05, 2013 1:45 pm

Captain Bhankas wrote:Just another brick in the wall. We all are, aren't we?

ha ha, i knew it from your post 1. welcome back and a pat on the back for myself. you have been described as the funniest poster in chat by one sucher (and i agree with her). take that as a compliment and hope you will continue to find time to waste here. Smile

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Tue Feb 05, 2013 1:47 pm

Wrong comparison Bullet Train vs. Local India Train.

Here is the right comparison:

quote="Captain Bhankas"]China china v india today Shanghai-transport-train

Crowded Chinese Trains do have some advantages.

India

china v india today Mumbai-1-350_050912095134

Conclusion: China > India X 100[/quote]

by Idéfix Wed Feb 06, 2013 2:42 am

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:you have been described as the funniest poster in chat by one sucher (and i agree with her). take that as a compliment and hope you will continue to find time to waste here.

+1

by Captain Bhankas Wed Feb 06, 2013 7:31 am

drinks --> tomfoolery --> wager --> identity revealed --> hiatus --> comeback

that's the executive summary of what happened last year. but i am back with my bhankas. not as much time as i had last year though.

by Guest Wed Feb 06, 2013 7:44 am

ha ha @ bhankas & kaptAn. welcome back again.

by Captain Bhankas Wed Feb 06, 2013 7:49 am

thanks HK.

by Hellsangel Wed Feb 06, 2013 6:57 pm

Captain Bhankas wrote:drinks --> tomfoolery --> wager --> identity revealed --> hiatus --> comeback

That post did look like it was made under the influence.

by Captain Bhankas Fri Feb 22, 2013 10:40 am

China

India

by Guest Fri Feb 22, 2013 11:11 am

india

china

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Fri Feb 22, 2013 12:45 pm

Dude... Indians cannot do what the Chinkus do... remember why Indians hide their sandals and shoes in marriage halls and outside temples - in the absence of a token system?

by goodcitizn Fri Feb 22, 2013 1:43 pm

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:Dude... Indians cannot do what the Chinkus do... remember why Indians hide their sandals and shoes in marriage halls and outside temples - in the absence of a token system?

My grandfather had this idea of leaving one sandal at one end and the other at the opposite end when entering marriage halls or temples making it difficult for the thief to walk away with them!

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