Beijing sways to Bharatanatyam

by FluteHolder Sun Feb 03, 2013 12:58 am

http://www.thehindu.com/arts/dance/beijing-sways-to-bharatanatyam/article4373145.ece?homepage=true

by Kris Sun Feb 03, 2013 1:20 am

FluteHolder wrote:http://www.thehindu.com/arts/dance/beijing-sways-to-bharatanatyam/article4373145.ece?homepage=true

>>>>Guys, what is this fascination with the Beijingers? Let's make a pact. No mention of them for the next couple of weeks. Ok, you can post pics of the BN teachers if you want, but that's it. Thanks.

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Sun Feb 03, 2013 2:31 am

FluteHolder wrote:http://www.thehindu.com/arts/dance/beijing-sways-to-bharatanatyam/article4373145.ece?homepage=true

shouldn't it be called IndiaNatym or TamilNatyam to reflect secularism. Will the chinese "invent" a diff version n call it their own?

by Impedimenta Sun Feb 03, 2013 2:41 am

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:
FluteHolder wrote:http://www.thehindu.com/arts/dance/beijing-sways-to-bharatanatyam/article4373145.ece?homepage=true

shouldn't it be called IndiaNatym or TamilNatyam to reflect secularism. Will the chinese "invent" a diff version n call it their own?

err? Zoo, i tell ya!

by Guest Sun Feb 03, 2013 3:17 am

Impedimenta wrote:
Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:
FluteHolder wrote:http://www.thehindu.com/arts/dance/beijing-sways-to-bharatanatyam/article4373145.ece?homepage=true

shouldn't it be called IndiaNatym or TamilNatyam to reflect secularism. Will the chinese "invent" a diff version n call it their own?

err? Zoo, i tell ya!

ha ha! reading posts and titles here these days, i get the feeling that such is suddenly in the twilight zone.

by MaxEntropy_Man Sun Feb 03, 2013 12:20 pm

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:
FluteHolder wrote:http://www.thehindu.com/arts/dance/beijing-sways-to-bharatanatyam/article4373145.ece?homepage=true

shouldn't it be called IndiaNatym or TamilNatyam to reflect secularism. Will the chinese "invent" a diff version n call it their own?

BN is not named for a country, but its alleged "founder", bharatha munivar. specifically that name was coined by tambrahm men who wanted to make an art form nurtured and practiced by temple dancers, respectable enough to be taken up by their own women. the original and correct name for BN is sathir or sathirAttam. the "bharatha" in BN most definitely does not refer to india despite all you have heard.

oh and to the OP -- nobody "sways" to BN. maybe tap their feet or something.

by Guest Sun Feb 03, 2013 12:47 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:
FluteHolder wrote:http://www.thehindu.com/arts/dance/beijing-sways-to-bharatanatyam/article4373145.ece?homepage=true

shouldn't it be called IndiaNatym or TamilNatyam to reflect secularism. Will the chinese "invent" a diff version n call it their own?

BN is not named for a country, but its alleged "founder", bharatha munivar. specifically that name was coined by tambrahm men who wanted to make an art form nurtured and practiced by temple dancers, respectable enough to be taken up by their own women. the original and correct name for BN is sathir or sathirAttam. the "bharatha" in BN most definitely does not refer to india despite all you have heard.

oh and to the OP -- nobody "sways" to BN. maybe tap their feet or something.

As per tamil tradition Bharat Muni is said to have been a Kashmiri.

by MaxEntropy_Man Sun Feb 03, 2013 12:53 pm

Rashmun wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:
FluteHolder wrote:http://www.thehindu.com/arts/dance/beijing-sways-to-bharatanatyam/article4373145.ece?homepage=true

shouldn't it be called IndiaNatym or TamilNatyam to reflect secularism. Will the chinese "invent" a diff version n call it their own?

BN is not named for a country, but its alleged "founder", bharatha munivar. specifically that name was coined by tambrahm men who wanted to make an art form nurtured and practiced by temple dancers, respectable enough to be taken up by their own women. the original and correct name for BN is sathir or sathirAttam. the "bharatha" in BN most definitely does not refer to india despite all you have heard.

oh and to the OP -- nobody "sways" to BN. maybe tap their feet or something.

As per tamil tradition Bharat Muni is said to have been a Kashmiri.

there is firm historical evidence that the name BN is at most a 100 to 120 years old, entirely made up by tamil brahmin men for the reason i mentioned above. the art form is wholly indigenous to TN and its original name before it was usurped by tamil brahmins is sathir or sathirattam. i remember posting a link to a well researched article by avanthi meduri, a reader (associate professor) at roehampton university in the UK some time ago at sulekha which discusses this very issue. in fact the balasaraswathi school, one of the two most important women in twentieth century BN history, the other being rukmini devi, firmly believes this to be the case. they should know their entire family is of the temple dancers tradition.

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Sun Feb 03, 2013 12:56 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:
FluteHolder wrote:http://www.thehindu.com/arts/dance/beijing-sways-to-bharatanatyam/article4373145.ece?homepage=true

shouldn't it be called IndiaNatym or TamilNatyam to reflect secularism. Will the chinese "invent" a diff version n call it their own?

BN is not named for a country, but its alleged "founder", bharatha munivar. specifically that name was coined by tambrahm men who wanted to make an art form nurtured and practiced by temple dancers, respectable enough to be taken up by their own women. the original and correct name for BN is sathir or sathirAttam. the "bharatha" in BN most definitely does not refer to india despite all you have heard.

oh and to the OP -- nobody "sways" to BN. maybe tap their feet or something.

I am aware that BN does not refer to Hindustan. However, in this day when groups can protest for even naming a terrorist character in a movie as Omar, it will not be too long for them to protest/demand for a name change for BN.

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Sun Feb 03, 2013 12:59 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Rashmun wrote:

As per tamil tradition Bharat Muni is said to have been a Kashmiri.

there is firm historical evidence that the name BN is at most a 100 to 120 years old, entirely made up by tamil brahmin men for the reason i mentioned above. the art form is wholly indigenous to TN and its original name before it was usurped by tamil brahmins is sathir or sathirattam. i remember posting a link to a well researched article by avanthi meduri, a reader (associate professor) at roehampton university in the UK some time ago at sulekha which discusses this very issue. in fact the balasaraswathi school, one of the two most important women in twentieth century BN history, the other being rukmini devi, firmly believes this to be the case. they should know their entire family is of the temple dancers tradition.

So.... Rashmun has made up his mind and that is that.

by Impedimenta Mon Feb 04, 2013 1:03 am

Rashmun wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:
FluteHolder wrote:http://www.thehindu.com/arts/dance/beijing-sways-to-bharatanatyam/article4373145.ece?homepage=true

shouldn't it be called IndiaNatym or TamilNatyam to reflect secularism. Will the chinese "invent" a diff version n call it their own?

BN is not named for a country, but its alleged "founder", bharatha munivar. specifically that name was coined by tambrahm men who wanted to make an art form nurtured and practiced by temple dancers, respectable enough to be taken up by their own women. the original and correct name for BN is sathir or sathirAttam. the "bharatha" in BN most definitely does not refer to india despite all you have heard.

oh and to the OP -- nobody "sways" to BN. maybe tap their feet or something.

As per tamil tradition Bharat Muni is said to have been a Kashmiri.

where is the Freakin stick when i need it? and who or what is a "bharat" muni? where are the rest of the alphabets? did you eat some for lunch and then some more for dinner?

natyashastra is a comprehensive text on dance, music and theater written by bhartha munivar. that is all you know. everything else you say or believe is from the internet. get that into your head.

by Guest Mon Feb 04, 2013 1:16 am

Impedimenta wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:
FluteHolder wrote:http://www.thehindu.com/arts/dance/beijing-sways-to-bharatanatyam/article4373145.ece?homepage=true

shouldn't it be called IndiaNatym or TamilNatyam to reflect secularism. Will the chinese "invent" a diff version n call it their own?

BN is not named for a country, but its alleged "founder", bharatha munivar. specifically that name was coined by tambrahm men who wanted to make an art form nurtured and practiced by temple dancers, respectable enough to be taken up by their own women. the original and correct name for BN is sathir or sathirAttam. the "bharatha" in BN most definitely does not refer to india despite all you have heard.

oh and to the OP -- nobody "sways" to BN. maybe tap their feet or something.

As per tamil tradition Bharat Muni is said to have been a Kashmiri.

where is the Freakin stick when i need it? and who or what is a "bharat" muni? where are the rest of the alphabets? did you eat some for lunch and then some more for dinner?

natyashastra is a comprehensive text on dance, music and theater written by bhartha munivar. that is all you know. everything else you say or believe is from the internet. get that into your head.

There has to be some basis to the tamil tradition of Bharatha Muni being a Kashmiri. I have two theories to offer in this connection:

1. Bharatha Muni was a Kashmiri immigrant to TN. Not very surprising considering we know that a Kashmiri king had come to TN to bathe in the temple tank of the Chidambaram temple since he was told it would be beneficial for his leperosy.

2. Bharatha Muni wrote the Natyashastra in Kashmir and his ideas were brought to TN either by Kashmiri immigrants to TN or Tamilians who had gone to Kashmir to study. We know for instance that the Kashmiri scholar Abhinavgupta wrote a commentary on the Naatya Shastra and that there is evidence of this same Abhinavgupta having tamil disciples.

A good article on Abhinavgupta:

http://sreenivasaraos.com/category/abhinavagupta/

by Guest Mon Feb 04, 2013 1:33 am

Rashmun wrote:
Impedimenta wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:

shouldn't it be called IndiaNatym or TamilNatyam to reflect secularism. Will the chinese "invent" a diff version n call it their own?

BN is not named for a country, but its alleged "founder", bharatha munivar. specifically that name was coined by tambrahm men who wanted to make an art form nurtured and practiced by temple dancers, respectable enough to be taken up by their own women. the original and correct name for BN is sathir or sathirAttam. the "bharatha" in BN most definitely does not refer to india despite all you have heard.

oh and to the OP -- nobody "sways" to BN. maybe tap their feet or something.

As per tamil tradition Bharat Muni is said to have been a Kashmiri.

where is the Freakin stick when i need it? and who or what is a "bharat" muni? where are the rest of the alphabets? did you eat some for lunch and then some more for dinner?

natyashastra is a comprehensive text on dance, music and theater written by bhartha munivar. that is all you know. everything else you say or believe is from the internet. get that into your head.

There has to be some basis to the tamil tradition of Bharatha Muni being a Kashmiri. I have two theories to offer in this connection:

1. Bharatha Muni was a Kashmiri immigrant to TN. Not very surprising considering we know that a Kashmiri king had come to TN to bathe in the temple tank of the Chidambaram temple since he was told it would be beneficial for his leperosy.

2. Bharatha Muni wrote the Natyashastra in Kashmir and his ideas were brought to TN either by Kashmiri immigrants to TN or Tamilians who had gone to Kashmir to study. We know for instance that the Kashmiri scholar Abhinavgupta wrote a commentary on the Naatya Shastra and that there is evidence of this same Abhinavgupta having tamil disciples.

A good article on Abhinavgupta:

http://sreenivasaraos.com/category/abhinavagupta/

Madhuraja was one of the tamil disciples of the Kashmiri scholar Abhinavagupta. For more on this see here:

http://ikashmir.net/mlkoul/gurunatha-paramarsa.html

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Feb 04, 2013 1:56 am

googling skills are no substitute for knowledge from within the tradition. the greeks discovered some of the early laws of physics, those that had to do with planetary motion. nobody, nobody sane that is will call them the discoverers of quantum mechanics however. when you think of twentieth century physics you think of germans and americans.

by Guest Mon Feb 04, 2013 2:02 am

to sum up: the fact that the Kashmiri scholar Abhinavagupta wrote a famous commentary on the Naatya Shastra lends further credence to the tamil tradition of Bharatha Muni being a Kashmiri.

Since Naatya Shastra is widely regarded as the first theoretical text from which BN developed what this really means is that one cannot deny the fact that Kashmiris have contributed to the development of BN. Even if for argument's sake we agree that Bharatha Muni was not Kashmiri but Tamil you cannot deny that the Kashmiri scholar Abhinavagupta wrote a famous commentary on the Naatya Shastra.

by Guest Mon Feb 04, 2013 2:07 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:googling skills are no substitute for knowledge from within the tradition. the greeks discovered some of the early laws of physics, those that had to do with planetary motion. nobody, nobody sane that is will call them the discoverers of quantum mechanics however. when you think of twentieth century physics you think of germans and americans.

I prefer to think of Bharatha Muni and Abhinavagupta as analogous to Sir Issac Newton. Without their efforts it is conceivable that there would be no BN today. The fact that Kashmir was repeatedly subjected to invasions because of its location (because of which no traditional dance form survives today in Kashmir) does not detract from the fact that the founding fathers of BN were Kashmiris.

by Guest Mon Feb 04, 2013 2:15 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:googling skills are no substitute for knowledge from within the tradition. the greeks discovered some of the early laws of physics, those that had to do with planetary motion. nobody, nobody sane that is will call them the discoverers of quantum mechanics however. when you think of twentieth century physics you think of germans and americans.

Practitioners of BN often know very little and have very little interest in the theory from which this dance form emerged. This was said to me by none other than Shobhana who told me that she herself had very little knowledge and interest in theoretical texts like the Naatya Shastra.

Incidentally the fact that no major commentary on the Naatya Shastra was written in TN in either the ancient or medieval period is significant.

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Feb 04, 2013 2:17 am

that is quite a conclusion given that the term BN is about 120 years old and coined by tambrahm men.

by Guest Mon Feb 04, 2013 2:21 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:that is quite a conclusion given that the term BN is about 120 years old and coined by tambrahm men.

The term BN might be recent but the dance form it refers to is surely not recent but goes back a long ways. Even the ancient temples of TN have carvings of women in various dance postures which are immediately recognizable as belonging to BN.

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Feb 04, 2013 2:23 am

also the vast body of composed dance music in BN, greater than 90% is in tamil.

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Feb 04, 2013 2:26 am

Rashmun wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:that is quite a conclusion given that the term BN is about 120 years old and coined by tambrahm men.

The term BN might be recent but the dance form it refers to is surely not recent but goes back a long ways. Even the ancient temples of TN have carvings of women in various dance postures which are immediately recognizable as belonging to BN.

it is funny to see you repeating back to me what i had told you at sulekha. the aforementioned temples are in TN a long way from kashmir.

by Guest Mon Feb 04, 2013 2:27 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:also the vast body of composed dance music in BN, greater than 90% is in tamil.

Who is denying this? One is only saying that the major theoretical texts on which BN is based have been written by Kashmiris like Bharathamuni and Abhinavagupta.

by Guest Mon Feb 04, 2013 2:31 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:that is quite a conclusion given that the term BN is about 120 years old and coined by tambrahm men.

The term BN might be recent but the dance form it refers to is surely not recent but goes back a long ways. Even the ancient temples of TN have carvings of women in various dance postures which are immediately recognizable as belonging to BN.

it is funny to see you repeating back to me what i had told you at sulekha. the aforementioned temples are in TN a long way from kashmir.

This is true but tamil students had been visiting Kashmir (for instance Madhuraja, the tamil student of the Kashmiri scholar Abhinavagupta) and since the first text on this subject was written by a Kashmiri as per tamil tradition it is entirely possible that the temples in TN which depict the BN postures were a direct outcome of tamil students returning from Kashmir with the knowledge they had acquired from their Kashmiri teachers.

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Feb 04, 2013 2:35 am

accurate history is not written based on possibilities and conjectures but by showing conclusive connected evidence. what you are doing has a different name-- historical fiction.

by Guest Mon Feb 04, 2013 2:40 am

A description of the Kashmiri scholar Abhinavagupta given by his tamil student Madhuraja:

One of the greatest tantrics of all times was the prolific trika savant abhinavagupta, one of the greatest Indian philosophers of all times. He wrote at least 44 books on tantra, aesthetics (including nATyashAstra) and philosophy. His student madhurAja yogin leaves the following account:

He sits like dakShiNAmUrtI himself as though he has taken a new incarnation in Kashmir. He sits in the middles of a garden of fruits, inside a splendid pavilion filled with elegant paintings. The room smells wonderfully because of he flower garlands, incense sticks and lamps. The walls are smeared with sandal paste. There is music from instruments and singing and dancing in his pavilion.

He sits on a golden seat and has pearls decorating his canopy. abhinavagupta is attended by his many students with kShemarAja at their head who write down the various topics he discourses on. To his side are his two female consorts, who are his kulA~NganAs in the tantric rites. They hold a pot of wine, a box of betel-leaves, lotus and matulu~Nga fruits. abhinavagupta’s eyes are filled with the esctasy of tantric bliss.

In the middle of his forehead is the conspicous triad mark of vibhUtI. He has one ear-ring with a rudrAkSha bead. His long locks are held by a garland of flowers, he has a long beard and his neck is smeared with the tantric yakShapa~Nka powder. His yaGYopavIta hangs from his neck and he wears a silken dhoti white as the moon beams. He sits in the yogic vIrAsana position holding a rudrAkSha mAlA and shows a mudra signifying the knowledge of mahAdeva.

http://manasataramgini.wordpress.com/2005/11/15/a-description-of-abhinavagupta-by-madhuraja-yogin/[i]

by Guest Mon Feb 04, 2013 2:43 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:accurate history is not written based on possibilities and conjectures but by showing conclusive connected evidence. what you are doing has a different name-- historical fiction.

I disagree. I think I have made a strong case for Kashmiri contribution to BN.

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Feb 04, 2013 8:15 am

i can see that this discussion will take the inevitable path. the evidence for BN being a tamil art form is for everyone to see. other origins while possible have not been shown. extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. you are welcome to your delusions. i'll just say this before i quit this thread: i have never met a kashmiri who knows BN from his elbow.

by Guest Mon Feb 04, 2013 8:35 am

Munmun maybe those Tamils went to kashmir just for summer vacations. No?

by Guest Mon Feb 04, 2013 9:25 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:i can see that this discussion will take the inevitable path. the evidence for BN being a tamil art form is for everyone to see. other origins while possible have not been shown. extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. you are welcome to your delusions. i'll just say this before i quit this thread: i have never met a kashmiri who knows BN from his elbow.

It died out in Kashmir because Kashmir because of its location kept getting subjected to attacks and conquests while TN was relatively peaceful.

There used to be a great center of learning called Taxila for a very long time. But because of its location (in modern Afghanistan) this center of learning got wiped out.

You cannot refute the fact that the Kashmiri Abhinavagupta wrote a major commentary on the Naatya Shastra and that this Kashmiri scholar had tamil disciples like Madhuraja.

No tamilian has written a major commentary on the Naatya Shastra in the ancient or medieval period.

I am impressed by the fact that Madhuraja in his description of Abhinavagupta talks of music and dancing in the place where Abhinavagupta resides. Considering that Abhinavagupta wrote a major commentary on the Naatya Shastra and that the postures of BN are elucidated in the Naatya Shastra, could it be that a variant of BN was observed in Kashmir at or near the residence of Abhinavagupta by Madhuraja?

by Guest Mon Feb 04, 2013 9:34 am

Rashmun wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:i can see that this discussion will take the inevitable path. the evidence for BN being a tamil art form is for everyone to see. other origins while possible have not been shown. extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. you are welcome to your delusions. i'll just say this before i quit this thread: i have never met a kashmiri who knows BN from his elbow.

It died out in Kashmir because Kashmir because of its location kept getting subjected to attacks and conquests while TN was relatively peaceful.

There used to be a great center of learning called Taxila for a very long time. But because of its location (in modern Afghanistan) this center of learning got wiped out.

You cannot refute the fact that the Kashmiri Abhinavagupta wrote a major commentary on the Naatya Shastra and that this Kashmiri scholar had tamil disciples like Madhuraja.

No tamilian has written a major commentary on the Naatya Shastra in the ancient or medieval period.

I am impressed by the fact that Madhuraja in his description of Abhinavagupta talks of music and dancing in the place where Abhinavagupta resides. Considering that Abhinavagupta wrote a major commentary on the Naatya Shastra and that the postures of BN are elucidated in the Naatya Shastra, could it be that a variant of BN was observed in Kashmir at or near the residence of Abhinavagupta by Madhuraja?

There is a school of philosophy called Kashmir Saivism. It originated in Kashmir but subsequently it died out there because Kashmir's location was not not conducive to philosophical activities.

This school of philosophy died out in Kashmir but it did not die out in India. It grew root in Tamil Nadu, presumably through tamil students who had gone to Kashmir to study and/or Kashmiri immigrants to TN and continued to flourish. The Nataraja temple at Chidambaram was and is an important center of Kashmir Saivism.

Incidentally the Dikshitars of Tamil Nadu claim that their ancestors had come from Kashmir.

by Guest Mon Feb 04, 2013 9:38 am

Rashmun wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:i can see that this discussion will take the inevitable path. the evidence for BN being a tamil art form is for everyone to see. other origins while possible have not been shown. extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. you are welcome to your delusions. i'll just say this before i quit this thread: i have never met a kashmiri who knows BN from his elbow.

It died out in Kashmir because Kashmir because of its location kept getting subjected to attacks and conquests while TN was relatively peaceful.

There used to be a great center of learning called Taxila for a very long time. But because of its location (in modern Afghanistan) this center of learning got wiped out.

You cannot refute the fact that the Kashmiri Abhinavagupta wrote a major commentary on the Naatya Shastra and that this Kashmiri scholar had tamil disciples like Madhuraja.

No tamilian has written a major commentary on the Naatya Shastra in the ancient or medieval period.

I am impressed by the fact that Madhuraja in his description of Abhinavagupta talks of music and dancing in the place where Abhinavagupta resides. Considering that Abhinavagupta wrote a major commentary on the Naatya Shastra and that the postures of BN are elucidated in the Naatya Shastra, could it be that a variant of BN was observed in Kashmir at or near the residence of Abhinavagupta by Madhuraja?

The fact that as per tamil tradition Bharatha Muni who wrote Naatya Shastra was a Kashmiri also has to be kept in mind here.

by Guest Mon Feb 04, 2013 10:37 am

Only a fool will deny the prevalence and existence of Ayurveda in TN. The main text of Ayurveda is the Charaka Samhita. Although the text itself was written over a very long period of time and numerous scholars contributed to the material we find in it, the final redactar of this text who compiled it and put everything together was a Kashmiri.

This is another example of the joint cultural history of TN and Kashmir.

by goodcitizn Mon Feb 04, 2013 11:18 am

Vidya Bagchi wrote:Munmun maybe those Tamils went to kashmir just for summer vacations. No?

True. Good point. Bharatha Muni taught the Tamil girls during their vacation the same way he taught Egyptian begums, while they were sunbathing in the slopes of the Himalayas, the undulating hip movements of belly dancing, asking them to swivel an imaginary hula hoop to staccato beats. (Natya Shastra has a few pages missing but Wiki clearly states that hula hoop was an Egyptian invention dating back to 1000 B.C.)

by Guest Mon Feb 04, 2013 11:30 am

goodcitizn wrote:
Vidya Bagchi wrote:Munmun maybe those Tamils went to kashmir just for summer vacations. No?

True. Good point. Bharatha Muni taught the Tamil girls during their vacation the same way he taught Egyptian begums, while they were sunbathing in the slopes of the Himalayas, the undulating hip movements of belly dancing, asking them to swivel an imaginary hula hoop to staccato beats. (Natya Shastra has a few pages missing but Wiki clearly states that hula hoop was an Egyptian invention dating back to 1000 B.C.)

Translation of GC's rant: tamil tradition which says Bharatha Muni was a Kashmiri should be rejected because tamil tradition is bogus. Also Kashmir Saivism and Ayurveda arose in TN independently. The claim that the Kashmiri Abhinavagupta wrote a major commentary on the Naatya Shastra is likewise bogus. And the claim that Tamils like Madhuraja were going to Kashmir to learn is also bogus.

by goodcitizn Mon Feb 04, 2013 11:47 am

Rashmun wrote:
goodcitizn wrote:
Vidya Bagchi wrote:Munmun maybe those Tamils went to kashmir just for summer vacations. No?

True. Good point. Bharatha Muni taught the Tamil girls during their vacation the same way he taught Egyptian begums, while they were sunbathing in the slopes of the Himalayas, the undulating hip movements of belly dancing, asking them to swivel an imaginary hula hoop to staccato beats. (Natya Shastra has a few pages missing but Wiki clearly states that hula hoop was an Egyptian invention dating back to 1000 B.C.)

Translation of GC's rant: tamil tradition which says Bharatha Muni was a Kashmiri should be rejected because tamil tradition is bogus. Also Kashmir Saivism and Ayurveda arose in TN independently. The claim that the Kashmiri Abhinavagupta wrote a major commentary on the Naatya Shastra is likewise bogus. And the claim that Tamils like Madhuraja were going to Kashmir to learn is also bogus.

"Rant"? LOL! I was merely ingratiating with my northindian novelist friend.

by Guest Mon Feb 04, 2013 11:51 am

goodcitizn wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
goodcitizn wrote:
Vidya Bagchi wrote:Munmun maybe those Tamils went to kashmir just for summer vacations. No?

True. Good point. Bharatha Muni taught the Tamil girls during their vacation the same way he taught Egyptian begums, while they were sunbathing in the slopes of the Himalayas, the undulating hip movements of belly dancing, asking them to swivel an imaginary hula hoop to staccato beats. (Natya Shastra has a few pages missing but Wiki clearly states that hula hoop was an Egyptian invention dating back to 1000 B.C.)

Translation of GC's rant: tamil tradition which says Bharatha Muni was a Kashmiri should be rejected because tamil tradition is bogus. Also Kashmir Saivism and Ayurveda arose in TN independently. The claim that the Kashmiri Abhinavagupta wrote a major commentary on the Naatya Shastra is likewise bogus. And the claim that Tamils like Madhuraja were going to Kashmir to learn is also bogus.

"Rant"? LOL! I was merely ingratiating with my northindian novelist friend.

Do you always regard unpalatable truth to be fiction?

by goodcitizn Mon Feb 04, 2013 12:03 pm

Rashmun wrote:
goodcitizn wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
goodcitizn wrote:
Vidya Bagchi wrote:Munmun maybe those Tamils went to kashmir just for summer vacations. No?

True. Good point. Bharatha Muni taught the Tamil girls during their vacation the same way he taught Egyptian begums, while they were sunbathing in the slopes of the Himalayas, the undulating hip movements of belly dancing, asking them to swivel an imaginary hula hoop to staccato beats. (Natya Shastra has a few pages missing but Wiki clearly states that hula hoop was an Egyptian invention dating back to 1000 B.C.)

Translation of GC's rant: tamil tradition which says Bharatha Muni was a Kashmiri should be rejected because tamil tradition is bogus. Also Kashmir Saivism and Ayurveda arose in TN independently. The claim that the Kashmiri Abhinavagupta wrote a major commentary on the Naatya Shastra is likewise bogus. And the claim that Tamils like Madhuraja were going to Kashmir to learn is also bogus.

"Rant"? LOL! I was merely ingratiating with my northindian novelist friend.

Do you always regard unpalatable truth to be fiction?

On the contrary, I always regard truth to be palatable.

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Feb 04, 2013 12:53 pm

i am not going to get into pseudo-polemical discussions with an individual who clearly has some kind of agenda and has displayed signs of becoming unstable from time to time, but i think it might be useful for the rest of the audience following this thread to amplify some of what i said earlier.

the point is, it is quite possible that some basic elements of BN may have come from the natyashastra which presumably was authored by a kashmiri, but it is quite a different matter to claim that BN was invented by kashmiris. saying that is the same as saying the wheel was invented somewhere in the central asian steppes, so the automobile was invented in the steppes.

as time scales go, formal BN is not very old. the folks responsible for codifying the art, formalizing its structure and rhythmic movements (adavus), formalizing a recital structure, and shaping its aesthetic elements were four brothers who today are collectively known as the tanjore quartet. performers and scholars who study BN consider these four as the authors of the art form itself.

here is a short article about the life and times of the brothers and the house they lived in (incidentally the brothers called the dance sathir). as i explained before, the appellation BN came in the 19th century from tambrahms.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/Tiruchirapalli/article437551.ece

by Hellsangel Mon Feb 04, 2013 12:54 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:i am not going to get into pseudo-polemical discussions with an individual who clearly has some kind of agenda and has displayed signs of becoming unstable from time to time, but i think it might be useful for the rest of the audience following this thread to amplify some of what i said earlier.

Yet you engage him in earnest, Il Professore!

by FluteHolder Mon Feb 04, 2013 1:16 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
as time scales go, formal BN is not very old. the folks responsible for codifying the art, formalizing its structure and rhythmic movements (adavus), formalizing a recital structure, and shaping its aesthetic elements were four brothers who today are collectively known as the tanjore quartet. performers and scholars who study BN consider these four as the authors of the art form itself.

here is a short article about the life and times of the brothers and the house they lived in (incidentally the brothers called the dance sathir). as i explained before, the appellation BN came in the 19th century from tambrahms.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/Tiruchirapalli/article437551.ece

>>
Do you know the meaning of 'Sathir'? Is it related to 'Quartet/Chathur/Four'? Just curious.

by Guest Mon Feb 04, 2013 1:45 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:i am not going to get into pseudo-polemical discussions with an individual who clearly has some kind of agenda and has displayed signs of becoming unstable from time to time, but i think it might be useful for the rest of the audience following this thread to amplify some of what i said earlier.

the point is, it is quite possible that some basic elements of BN may have come from the natyashastra which presumably was authored by a kashmiri, but it is quite a different matter to claim that BN was invented by kashmiris. saying that is the same as saying the wheel was invented somewhere in the central asian steppes, so the automobile was invented in the steppes.

as time scales go, formal BN is not very old. the folks responsible for codifying the art, formalizing its structure and rhythmic movements (adavus), formalizing a recital structure, and shaping its aesthetic elements were four brothers who today are collectively known as the tanjore quartet. performers and scholars who study BN consider these four as the authors of the art form itself.

here is a short article about the life and times of the brothers and the house they lived in (incidentally the brothers called the dance sathir). as i explained before, the appellation BN came in the 19th century from tambrahms.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/Tiruchirapalli/article437551.ece

The ancient temples of TN have sculptures of women in postures which are easily identifiable as being part of BN. When the tamil student Madhuraja went to Kashmir and became a student of the great Kashmiri scholar Abhinavagupta he records music and dancing in the vicinity of Abhinavagupta's residence. It is tempting to speculate that the dancing seen by Madhuraja must have been a variant of BN because Abhinavagupta had written a major commentary on the Naatya Shastra and was clearly familiar with the classical dancing whose roots began with the Naatya Shastra of Bharatha Muni.

The wheel --> automobile example is baseless. The rules for the development of technology do not apply to the art forms. We do not say that the writings of Kalidasa should be compared to the wheel, and that of Subramania Bharati should be compared to the automobile.

by Guest Mon Feb 04, 2013 1:46 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:i am not going to get into pseudo-polemical discussions with an individual who clearly has some kind of agenda and has displayed signs of becoming unstable from time to time, but i think it might be useful for the rest of the audience following this thread to amplify some of what i said earlier.

the point is, it is quite possible that some basic elements of BN may have come from the natyashastra which presumably was authored by a kashmiri, but it is quite a different matter to claim that BN was invented by kashmiris. saying that is the same as saying the wheel was invented somewhere in the central asian steppes, so the automobile was invented in the steppes.

as time scales go, formal BN is not very old. the folks responsible for codifying the art, formalizing its structure and rhythmic movements (adavus), formalizing a recital structure, and shaping its aesthetic elements were four brothers who today are collectively known as the tanjore quartet. performers and scholars who study BN consider these four as the authors of the art form itself.

here is a short article about the life and times of the brothers and the house they lived in (incidentally the brothers called the dance sathir). as i explained before, the appellation BN came in the 19th century from tambrahms.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/Tiruchirapalli/article437551.ece

The ancient temples of TN have sculptures of women in postures which are easily identifiable as being part of BN. When the tamil student Madhuraja went to Kashmir and became a student of the great Kashmiri scholar Abhinavagupta he records music and dancing in the vicinity of Abhinavagupta's residence. It is tempting to speculate that the dancing seen by Madhuraja must have been a variant of BN because Abhinavagupta had written a major commentary on the Naatya Shastra and was clearly familiar with the classical dancing whose roots began with the Naatya Shastra of Bharatha Muni.

The wheel --> automobile example is baseless. The rules for the development of technology do not apply to the art forms. We do not say that the writings of Kalidasa should be compared to the wheel, and that of Subramania Bharati should be compared to the automobile.

by Hellsangel Mon Feb 04, 2013 1:46 pm

Posting it twice now? Dotting is passe?

by Guest Mon Feb 04, 2013 1:49 pm

Rashmun wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:i am not going to get into pseudo-polemical discussions with an individual who clearly has some kind of agenda and has displayed signs of becoming unstable from time to time, but i think it might be useful for the rest of the audience following this thread to amplify some of what i said earlier.

the point is, it is quite possible that some basic elements of BN may have come from the natyashastra which presumably was authored by a kashmiri, but it is quite a different matter to claim that BN was invented by kashmiris. saying that is the same as saying the wheel was invented somewhere in the central asian steppes, so the automobile was invented in the steppes.

as time scales go, formal BN is not very old. the folks responsible for codifying the art, formalizing its structure and rhythmic movements (adavus), formalizing a recital structure, and shaping its aesthetic elements were four brothers who today are collectively known as the tanjore quartet. performers and scholars who study BN consider these four as the authors of the art form itself.

here is a short article about the life and times of the brothers and the house they lived in (incidentally the brothers called the dance sathir). as i explained before, the appellation BN came in the 19th century from tambrahms.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/Tiruchirapalli/article437551.ece

The ancient temples of TN have sculptures of women in postures which are easily identifiable as being part of BN. When the tamil student Madhuraja went to Kashmir and became a student of the great Kashmiri scholar Abhinavagupta he records music and dancing in the vicinity of Abhinavagupta's residence. It is tempting to speculate that the dancing seen by Madhuraja must have been a variant of BN because Abhinavagupta had written a major commentary on the Naatya Shastra and was clearly familiar with the classical dancing whose roots began with the Naatya Shastra of Bharatha Muni.

The wheel --> automobile example is baseless. The rules for the development of technology do not apply to the art forms. We do not say that the writings of Kalidasa should be compared to the wheel, and that of Subramania Bharati should be compared to the automobile.

I think i am going to write a blog on this topic. Max, i will be mentioning you in the Acknowledgement section. I hope you will not mind.

by Guest Mon Feb 04, 2013 2:05 pm

of the three standard traditional commentaries on the Naatya Shastra, two were definitely written by Kashmiris. The third commentator was a south indian, according to tradition.

by Guest Mon Feb 04, 2013 2:09 pm

Many commentaries have expanded the scope of the Natya Shastra; most importantly we may include Matanga's Brihaddesi (500–700 CE), Abhinavagupta's Abhinavabharati (which unifies some of the divergent structures that had emerged in the intervening years, and outlines a theory of artistic analysis) and Sharngadeva's Sangita Ratnakara (13th century work that unifies the raga structure in music)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natya_Shastra

-----
With respect to the above, Abhinavagupta and Sharngadeva were definitely Kashmiris while Matanga is traditionally believed to be a south indian.

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Feb 04, 2013 2:17 pm

Rashmun wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:i am not going to get into pseudo-polemical discussions with an individual who clearly has some kind of agenda and has displayed signs of becoming unstable from time to time, but i think it might be useful for the rest of the audience following this thread to amplify some of what i said earlier.

the point is, it is quite possible that some basic elements of BN may have come from the natyashastra which presumably was authored by a kashmiri, but it is quite a different matter to claim that BN was invented by kashmiris. saying that is the same as saying the wheel was invented somewhere in the central asian steppes, so the automobile was invented in the steppes.

as time scales go, formal BN is not very old. the folks responsible for codifying the art, formalizing its structure and rhythmic movements (adavus), formalizing a recital structure, and shaping its aesthetic elements were four brothers who today are collectively known as the tanjore quartet. performers and scholars who study BN consider these four as the authors of the art form itself.

here is a short article about the life and times of the brothers and the house they lived in (incidentally the brothers called the dance sathir). as i explained before, the appellation BN came in the 19th century from tambrahms.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/Tiruchirapalli/article437551.ece

The ancient temples of TN have sculptures of women in postures which are easily identifiable as being part of BN. When the tamil student Madhuraja went to Kashmir and became a student of the great Kashmiri scholar Abhinavagupta he records music and dancing in the vicinity of Abhinavagupta's residence. It is tempting to speculate that the dancing seen by Madhuraja must have been a variant of BN because Abhinavagupta had written a major commentary on the Naatya Shastra and was clearly familiar with the classical dancing whose roots began with the Naatya Shastra of Bharatha Muni.

The wheel --> automobile example is baseless. The rules for the development of technology do not apply to the art forms. We do not say that the writings of Kalidasa should be compared to the wheel, and that of Subramania Bharati should be compared to the automobile.

I think i am going to write a blog on this topic. Max, i will be mentioning you in the Acknowledgement section. I hope you will not mind.

if this is of the seva variety of acknowledgment where you say something i've said and use it feed some of your own crackpot theories, then no. if you cite me (i understand it's only a handle, but still), i'd like you to cite me verbatim and state honestly that i do not agree with you. as for the subject matter of this discussion itself, i refuse to engage with you because i do not think you have honest intentions, but an agenda. i will not respond to agendas.

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Feb 04, 2013 2:18 pm

FluteHolder wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
as time scales go, formal BN is not very old. the folks responsible for codifying the art, formalizing its structure and rhythmic movements (adavus), formalizing a recital structure, and shaping its aesthetic elements were four brothers who today are collectively known as the tanjore quartet. performers and scholars who study BN consider these four as the authors of the art form itself.

here is a short article about the life and times of the brothers and the house they lived in (incidentally the brothers called the dance sathir). as i explained before, the appellation BN came in the 19th century from tambrahms.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/Tiruchirapalli/article437551.ece

>>
Do you know the meaning of 'Sathir'? Is it related to 'Quartet/Chathur/Four'? Just curious.

i don't know the meaning of sathir.

by Guest Mon Feb 04, 2013 2:23 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:i am not going to get into pseudo-polemical discussions with an individual who clearly has some kind of agenda and has displayed signs of becoming unstable from time to time, but i think it might be useful for the rest of the audience following this thread to amplify some of what i said earlier.

the point is, it is quite possible that some basic elements of BN may have come from the natyashastra which presumably was authored by a kashmiri, but it is quite a different matter to claim that BN was invented by kashmiris. saying that is the same as saying the wheel was invented somewhere in the central asian steppes, so the automobile was invented in the steppes.

as time scales go, formal BN is not very old. the folks responsible for codifying the art, formalizing its structure and rhythmic movements (adavus), formalizing a recital structure, and shaping its aesthetic elements were four brothers who today are collectively known as the tanjore quartet. performers and scholars who study BN consider these four as the authors of the art form itself.

here is a short article about the life and times of the brothers and the house they lived in (incidentally the brothers called the dance sathir). as i explained before, the appellation BN came in the 19th century from tambrahms.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/Tiruchirapalli/article437551.ece

The ancient temples of TN have sculptures of women in postures which are easily identifiable as being part of BN. When the tamil student Madhuraja went to Kashmir and became a student of the great Kashmiri scholar Abhinavagupta he records music and dancing in the vicinity of Abhinavagupta's residence. It is tempting to speculate that the dancing seen by Madhuraja must have been a variant of BN because Abhinavagupta had written a major commentary on the Naatya Shastra and was clearly familiar with the classical dancing whose roots began with the Naatya Shastra of Bharatha Muni.

The wheel --> automobile example is baseless. The rules for the development of technology do not apply to the art forms. We do not say that the writings of Kalidasa should be compared to the wheel, and that of Subramania Bharati should be compared to the automobile.

I think i am going to write a blog on this topic. Max, i will be mentioning you in the Acknowledgement section. I hope you will not mind.

if this is of the seva variety of acknowledgment where you say something i've said and use it feed some of your own crackpot theories, then no. if you cite me (i understand it's only a handle, but still), i'd like you to cite me verbatim and state honestly that i do not agree with you. as for the subject matter of this discussion itself, i refuse to engage with you because i do not think you have honest intentions, but an agenda. i will not respond to agendas.

if i really had an agenda i would have tried to show cultural interaction between UP and Tamil Nadu. For instance the fact that there are scenes in kambaramayanam and Tulsidas's Ramayana which are not present in Valmiki Ramayana. The fact that i am talking of Kashmir and TN shows i have no agenda.

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Feb 04, 2013 2:25 pm

here is a nice website which details the role of the tanjore quartet (TQ in future discussions) in BN. it is also of interest to carnatic music fans that the four were trained in CM by none other than mutthuswami dikshitar.

http://www.tanjorequartet.com/?pagina=tqart

the english is a bit up and down probably because it was not written by a native english speaker (dutch maybe?).

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