The Benevolent Bahamani (clarifying misconceptions of Max and others)

This is a rejoinder to Max's post where he slams the Bahamani rulers. It is an article published in Max's favorite newspaper. It is clear that the kind of ceremony being described in honor of this king would not be taking place today if he would have been despotic or tyrannical.

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Karnataka - Bidar   

Symbol of communal harmony

I give below some facts about another Bahamani ruler. It is shameful that someone like Max and many others have a distorted understanding of these kings.

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Ibrahim Adil Shah's reign
The fifth king of the Adil Shahi dynasty is known in the Indian history as "Jagadguru Badshah." He tried to bring in cultural harmony, between the Shias and the Sunnis and between Hindus and Muslims through music. He was a great lover of music, played musical instruments, sang and composed praises of Hindu deities Saraswati and Ganapati. He wrote the book Kitab-E-Navras (Book of Nine Rasas) in Dakhani. It is a collection of 59 poems and 17 couplets. According to his court-poet Zuhuri, he wrote it to introduce the theory of nine Rasas, which occupies an important place in Indian aesthetics, to acquaint people who were only brought up in Persian ethos. The book opens with prayer to Saraswati, the Goddess of learning. He claimed that his father was the divine Ganapati and mother the Holy Saraswati. For him, the Tanpura personified learning -- "Ibrahim the tanpurawala became learned due to grace of god, living in the city of Vidyanagari" (Vidyanagari is the earlier name of Bijapur.)

Ibrahim II publicly declared that all he wanted was Vidya or learning, music, and Guruseva (serving the teacher). He was a devotee of Hazrat Banda Nawaj, the Sufi saint of Gulbarga. He has composed a prayer to him to bestow Vidya or learning and charitable disposition.

He founded a new township Navraspur to give concrete shape to his musical conception or idea of a musical city. He had a temple built inside the precincts of the palace which still exists.

Bijapur attracted the best musicians and dancers of the period because the king was famous as a great connoisseur and patron of music and it was a unique privilege to get recognition from him.


Kitabe Nauras

bhaka nyari nyari bhava ek kaha turuk kaha barahaman
Whether a Turk (Muslim) or a Brahmin with different language—emotion is the same.
nouras soor juga joti ani saroguni yusat sarasuti mata ibrahim parasada bhayi dooni
Oh mother Saraswati! Since you have blessed Ibrahim, his work Navras will last for long
He composed poems on his wife Chand Sultana, his Tanpura Motikhan and his elephant Atish Khan. He spoke Marathi, Dakhani, Urdu and Kannada languages fluently, and like his predecessors, employed several Hindus in top posts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibrahim_Adil_Shah_II

Rashmun wrote:This is a rejoinder to Max's post where he slams the Bahamani rulers. It is an article published in Max's favorite newspaper. It is clear that the kind of ceremony being described in honor of this king would not be taking place today if he would have been despotic or tyrannical.

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Karnataka - Bidar   

Symbol of communal harmony

Staff Correspondent

Bidar: Harmony among different communities is an outstanding character of the people of Bidar.

The urs of Sultan Ahmed Shah Al Wali Bahamani, who was King of Bidar, is a pointer to this. Hindus, Muslims, Christians and Buddhists attend the observance organised at his tomb in Ashtur village.

The urs marks the king's death anniversary. The term urs literally means wedding with the divine. The concept is influenced by Sufism. While the Muslims organise a `Sandal Sharieff,' the Hindus participate in a late-night `arati,' in front of the tombstone.

The Muslims conduct the `Sandal Sharieff' to observe the king's death anniversary.

The tomb is washed in rose water and decorated with flowers. Verses are read from the Koran, `Fajar Namaz' and `Salam.' `Chirag,' the holy lamp, is lighted. The Hindus believe the benevolent king was an incarnation of Lord Mallikarjuna. Later, all of them witness the wrestling matches organised by the villagers. People from Maharashtra and Andhra Pradesh also arrive in large numbers.

The highlight of the observance is that it is inaugurated by a Hindu preacher. The event does not begin till Shivaraya Swamy of Madyal in Gulbarga district arrives in Ashtur and performs a puja. This year, the event begins on March 6 and ends on March 15. Religious ceremonies will be held in the first week. Wrestling matches will be held on the last two days.

Ahmed Shah ruled Bidar from 1422 to 1436. He was a great patron of arts and culture.

The interior of the tomb structure is painted in dazzling colours and patterns. Verses from the Koran and poems of the kingdom's preacher Nematullah Kirmani are written all over the walls of the structure.

http://www.hindu.com/2007/03/05/stories/2007030511410400.htm

forgot to highlight the part about hindus doing arati.

what language did these folks speak at home? in their palaces? did any of them compose poetry in any dravidian language? (hint: dakhani is not a dravidian language)

Rashmun: You should forget about Bahamani sultans and concentrate on Moghuls, Aurangazeb and Akbar. UP bhaiyyas may love the Moghuls but SIs don't care for Bahamani bacchas.

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:what language did these folks speak at home? in their palaces? did any of them compose poetry in any dravidian language? (hint: dakhani is not a dravidian language)

He spoke Marathi, Dakhani, Urdu and Kannada languages fluentlly, and like his predecessors, employed several Hindus in top posts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibrahim_Adil_Shah_II

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my guess is that these kings must have been knowing the languages  Ibrahim Adil Shah knew. (Some of them may also have been knowing telugu.) Dakhini is not a dravidian language, but it is a south indian language and close to the heart of many south indians. kind of like sanskrit.

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:Rashmun: You should forget about Bahamani sultans and concentrate on Moghuls, Aurangazeb and Akbar. UP bhaiyyas may love the Moghuls but SIs don't care for Bahamani bacchas.

Why are SI hindus performing arati at the tomb of Sultan Ahmed Bahamani? Why do they consider him to be the reincarnation of a hindu god?

Rashmun wrote:

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:Rashmun: You should forget about Bahamani sultans and concentrate on Moghuls, Aurangazeb and Akbar. UP bhaiyyas may love the Moghuls but SIs don't care for Bahamani bacchas.

Why are SI hindus performing arati at the tomb of Sultan Ahmed Bahamani? Why do they consider him to be the reincarnation of a hindu god?

You should visit Hampi and Warangal.

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:

Rashmun wrote:

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:Rashmun: You should forget about Bahamani sultans and concentrate on Moghuls, Aurangazeb and Akbar. UP bhaiyyas may love the Moghuls but SIs don't care for Bahamani bacchas.

Why are SI hindus performing arati at the tomb of Sultan Ahmed Bahamani? Why do they consider him to be the reincarnation of a hindu god?

You should visit Hampi and Warangal.

Why don't you tell this to the people who perform arati at the tomb of Sultan Ahmed Bahamani and consider him a reincarnation of a hindu god? Are these hindus fools in your opinion?

Rashmun wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:what language did these folks speak at home? in their palaces? did any of them compose poetry in any dravidian language? (hint: dakhani is not a dravidian language)

He spoke Marathi, Dakhani, Urdu and Kannada languages fluentlly, and like his predecessors, employed several Hindus in top posts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibrahim_Adil_Shah_II

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my guess is that these kings must have been knowing the languages  Ibrahim Adil Shah knew. (Some of them may also have been knowing telugu.) Dakhini is not a dravidian language, but it is a south indian language and close to the heart of many south indians. kind of like sanskrit.

you are not answering my question. i know english; that doesn't make me an englishman. what language did the bEmAni speak at home? with his children? with his mother?

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

Rashmun wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:what language did these folks speak at home? in their palaces? did any of them compose poetry in any dravidian language? (hint: dakhani is not a dravidian language)

He spoke Marathi, Dakhani, Urdu and Kannada languages fluentlly, and like his predecessors, employed several Hindus in top posts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibrahim_Adil_Shah_II

---
my guess is that these kings must have been knowing the languages  Ibrahim Adil Shah knew. (Some of them may also have been knowing telugu.) Dakhini is not a dravidian language, but it is a south indian language and close to the heart of many south indians. kind of like sanskrit.

you are not answering my question. i know english; that doesn't make me an englishman. what language did the bEmAni speak at home? with his children? with his mother?

I cannot answer this with certainty. My guess is: Marathi with his Maharashtrian wife/wives and their children, Kannada with his Kannadiga wife/wives and their children, and possibly Dakhini/Urdu with his Muslim or NI wife/wives and their children. If some of them knew Telugu, as per my belief (since the regions controlled by some of them included parts of present day AP) then telugu with their Telugu wives and their children. If they had a tamil wife she would probably have to already know or else learn Kannada or Dakhini (or perhaps Telugu).

The more important question is: what was their court language. Again I am not certain but I think it was Dakhini. If it would have been Marathi, their Kannadiga subjects would have complained and likewise for Kannada and their Maharashtrian subjects. Not to mention their Telugu subjects. Dakhini was the language which may have been acceptable to everyone as the court language.

it is in this sense that i call the mapiLLAs and marakkAyars as distinct from the urdu (or if you want to call it dhakini or cluckini or whatever) strain of essentially persian-turkic-northindian islam. they fully integrated into the local culture and speak malayalam and tamil.

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:it is in this sense that i call the mapiLLAs and marakkAyars as distinct from the urdu (or if you want to call it dhakini or cluckini or whatever) strain of essentially persian-turkic-northindian islam. they fully integrated into the local culture and speak malayalam and tamil.

Moplah Muslims sing songs Malayalam songs which contain hindi-Urdu words. Also, you have Dakhini Muslims in Kerala who have been in Kerala for centuries and whose first language is Dakhini.
Moplah Muslims have retained some of their original Arab culture. For instance their cuisine includes dishes which are distinctly Arabic.

Rashmun wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:it is in this sense that i call the mapiLLAs and marakkAyars as distinct from the urdu (or if you want to call it dhakini or cluckini or whatever) strain of essentially persian-turkic-northindian islam. they fully integrated into the local culture and speak malayalam and tamil.

Moplah Muslims sing songs Malayalam songs which contain hindi-Urdu words. Also, you have Dakhini Muslims in Kerala who have been in Kerala for centuries and whose first language is Dakhini.
Moplah Muslims have retained some of their original Arab culture. For instance their cuisine includes dishes which are distinctly Arabic.

they contain arabic words which are probably also there in persian and hence in urdu. what else do you expect? their origins are both southern indian (malayalai) and arabic, and their language reflects that. 

let's go back a bit. just a few months ago you did not even know that mapiLLAs and marakkAyars spoke malayalam and tamil. you made a tall claim about every southern indian muslim's native tongue being cluckini. i had to hit on the head with contrary evidence!

The only thing I find interesting in this thread is the word Bemani. In Chennai jargon it means "fool".

goodcitizn wrote:The only thing I find interesting in this thread is the word Bemani. In Chennai jargon it means "fool".

The word bemani is a hindi word. It does not mean fool; it means fraudulent or fraud. It would be interesting to produce a compendium of hindi-urdu words which have been borrowed by tamil.

i've only heard it used on the streets of chennai. chennai street tamil is slowly going out of vogue. it's an interesting patois with lots of telugu and probably arabic words thrown in.

Rashmun wrote:

goodcitizn wrote:The only thing I find interesting in this thread is the word Bemani. In Chennai jargon it means "fool".

The word bemani is a hindi word. It does not mean fool; it means fraudulent or fraud. It would be interesting to produce a compendium of hindi-urdu words which have been borrowed by tamil.

Every Tamilian knows there are foreign words in Chennai jargon so there is always laughter when such words are used or heard. That lingo is exclusive to Chennai so such words are not used in other parts of TN. Is somari a Hindi word?

goodcitizn wrote:

Rashmun wrote:

goodcitizn wrote:The only thing I find interesting in this thread is the word Bemani. In Chennai jargon it means "fool".

The word bemani is a hindi word. It does not mean fool; it means fraudulent or fraud. It would be interesting to produce a compendium of hindi-urdu words which have been borrowed by tamil.

Every Tamilian knows there are foreign words in Chennai jargon so there is always laughter when such words are used or heard. That lingo is exclusive to Chennai so such words are not used in other parts of TN. Is somari a Hindi word?

not to my knowledge. it does not seem to be a standard hindi-urdu word,  but it is possible it is used in some hindi dialect.

goodcitizn wrote:

Rashmun wrote:

goodcitizn wrote:The only thing I find interesting in this thread is the word Bemani. In Chennai jargon it means "fool".

The word bemani is a hindi word. It does not mean fool; it means fraudulent or fraud. It would be interesting to produce a compendium of hindi-urdu words which have been borrowed by tamil.

Every Tamilian knows there are foreign words in Chennai jargon so there is always laughter when such words are used or heard. That lingo is exclusive to Chennai so such words are not used in other parts of TN. Is somari a Hindi word?

somari is a telugu word meaning lazy guy.

ye somAri! vootLa sollikinnu vandhiya? ticketku chilra kudukatha kalngAthala bejAr paNriye. navundhu po; anga fashtla seat kAliyakIthu kundhikO.

Rashmun wrote:

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:

Rashmun wrote:

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:Rashmun: You should forget about Bahamani sultans and concentrate on Moghuls, Aurangazeb and Akbar. UP bhaiyyas may love the Moghuls but SIs don't care for Bahamani bacchas.

Why are SI hindus performing arati at the tomb of Sultan Ahmed Bahamani? Why do they consider him to be the reincarnation of a hindu god?

You should visit Hampi and Warangal.

Why don't you tell this to the people who perform arati at the tomb of Sultan Ahmed Bahamani and consider him a reincarnation of a hindu god? Are these hindus fools in your opinion?

No use...there will always be some fools.

We keep telling you not to regurgitate the same crap every 2 weeks... but you have bookmarked some 100 one-sided pro-islamic links and keep repeating the same over and over...like an OCD patient.

So you see...such people just have to be left alone..

you see it as only pro-islamic, but it's much more than that.  it's a stubbornly northindian-sanskrito-turko-persian (NTP) centric wordview of all things indian.

Over six centuries ago when the Bahmani Sultanate established its rule over the Deccan plateau, the medieval kingdom paved way for a new renaissance in cultural harmony, which in later years, transformed the entire Deccan plateau into a melting point of cultural, linguistic and literary world.Several researchers and historians believe that the beginning of the rule of the Bahmanis that resonated the concept of “cultural harmony” which acted as milestone and impregnable role model for the rest of India, especially for the northern India.“In my view, the concept of religious tolerance and social harmony was pioneered during the rule of Bahmanis in Gulbarga, gained strength during the Adil Shahi dynasty in Bijapur”, said Devu Pattar, writer and researcher.

Mr. Pattar said that it was Firoz Shah Bahmani, the most revered kings of the Bahmani Sultanate, who strengthened the bond between the Muslims and Hindus of the region with his crave for learning and adopting native culture.
“The historical documents reveal that he was so passionate for learning local languages that he married women of different castes and communities only to learn native languages. With this nature of his to generously accept the culture of local people irrespective of their caste and religion he could carve for himself a place in people’s heart”, Mr. Pattar said.

While Firoz Shah Bahmani conceptualised cultural harmony in Gulbarga, Yusuf Adil Khan carried over the legacy and strengthened it in Bijapur. According to Kazi Arshad Ali, resource person and writer from Bidar, the dynasties ruling Bijapur and Gulbarga regions began cultural exchanges with Persia which facilitated the creation of new common culture in this region.

The presence of common culture is distinctly palpable in the architectural marvels of Bijapur, Bidar and Gulbarga region where a fine blend of Indo-Persian architecture is seen.

“The Deccan region is the best example of unity in diversity in India where different customs, art, tradition, food habits and faith culminate”, Mr. Ali said.

Echoing similar sentiments, M.M. Kalburgi, the former Vice-Chancellor of Hampi University, said that the healthy blend of Hindu and Muslim culture can be seen in various rituals performed in several parts of the Deccan plateau.

The Sufi culture which is an intrinsic part of this region has a unique nature of generously accepting the faiths and beliefs of all religions, Prof. Kalburgi said.
“Ibrahim Adil Shah of Bijapur is arguably the best example for this Sufi culture. He is revered even by Hindus as ‘Jagadguru Ibrahim’. In Kitab-e-Nouras , one of the books of Adil Shahi dynasty, mentions that Ibrahim Adil Shah used to offer prayers to Hindu gods and goddesses”, Prof. Kalburgi said.The Adil Shahis not merely preached but also practised the tradition of accepting various religious faiths in their lives.While this has been the unique culture of Deccan plateau for over six centuries, progressive thinkers and writers believe that the three-day 79th Akhila Bharat Kannada Sahitya Sammelan in Bijapur from February 9 should act as platform to propagate and popularise this strongly rooted cultural harmony among the people of the present generation.“Besides promoting Kannada literature, the sammelan has a greater responsibility to strengthen the secular beliefs in the minds and hearts of people here to ensure that this cultural harmony remains intact for generations to come”, Prof. Kalburgi said.


http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp-national/tp-karnataka/sammelan-should-propagate-cultural-harmony-kalburgi/article4396072.ece

Rashmun wrote:Over six centuries ago when the Bahmani Sultanate established its rule over the Deccan plateau, the medieval kingdom paved way for a new renaissance in cultural harmony, which in later years, transformed the entire Deccan plateau into a melting point of cultural, linguistic and literary world.Several researchers and historians believe that the beginning of the rule of the Bahmanis that resonated the concept of “cultural harmony” which acted as milestone and impregnable role model for the rest of India, especially for the northern India.“In my view, the concept of religious tolerance and social harmony was pioneered during the rule of Bahmanis in Gulbarga, gained strength during the Adil Shahi dynasty in Bijapur”, said Devu Pattar, writer and researcher.

Mr. Pattar said that it was Firoz Shah Bahmani, the most revered kings of the Bahmani Sultanate, who strengthened the bond between the Muslims and Hindus of the region with his crave for learning and adopting native culture.
“The historical documents reveal that he was so passionate for learning local languages that he married women of different castes and communities only to learn native languages. With this nature of his to generously accept the culture of local people irrespective of their caste and religion he could carve for himself a place in people’s heart”, Mr. Pattar said.

While Firoz Shah Bahmani conceptualised cultural harmony in Gulbarga, Yusuf Adil Khan carried over the legacy and strengthened it in Bijapur. According to Kazi Arshad Ali, resource person and writer from Bidar, the dynasties ruling Bijapur and Gulbarga regions began cultural exchanges with Persia which facilitated the creation of new common culture in this region.

The presence of common culture is distinctly palpable in the architectural marvels of Bijapur, Bidar and Gulbarga region where a fine blend of Indo-Persian architecture is seen.

“The Deccan region is the best example of unity in diversity in India where different customs, art, tradition, food habits and faith culminate”, Mr. Ali said.

Echoing similar sentiments, M.M. Kalburgi, the former Vice-Chancellor of Hampi University, said that the healthy blend of Hindu and Muslim culture can be seen in various rituals performed in several parts of the Deccan plateau.

The Sufi culture which is an intrinsic part of this region has a unique nature of generously accepting the faiths and beliefs of all religions, Prof. Kalburgi said.
“Ibrahim Adil Shah of Bijapur is arguably the best example for this Sufi culture. He is revered even by Hindus as ‘Jagadguru Ibrahim’. In Kitab-e-Nouras , one of the books of Adil Shahi dynasty, mentions that Ibrahim Adil Shah used to offer prayers to Hindu gods and goddesses”, Prof. Kalburgi said.The Adil Shahis not merely preached but also practised the tradition of accepting various religious faiths in their lives.While this has been the unique culture of Deccan plateau for over six centuries, progressive thinkers and writers believe that the three-day 79th Akhila Bharat Kannada Sahitya Sammelan in Bijapur from February 9 should act as platform to propagate and popularise this strongly rooted cultural harmony among the people of the present generation.“Besides promoting Kannada literature, the sammelan has a greater responsibility to strengthen the secular beliefs in the minds and hearts of people here to ensure that this cultural harmony remains intact for generations to come”, Prof. Kalburgi said.


http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp-national/tp-karnataka/sammelan-should-propagate-cultural-harmony-kalburgi/article4396072.ece

I agree with Prof Kalburgi, Mr Pattar, and Mr Ali. We must propagate the benevolence of the Bahamani rulers in inculcating secular values in their subjects. India is truly indebted to these Bahamani rulers.

to rashmun---

southern india has its own cultural ethos. amongst other things it is defined by carnatic music, bharathanattiyam, chettinad cuisine, nadaswaram playing muslims, great temple architecture, kuchipudi, and our own brand of quirky cinema.  unfortunately for you, the muslims amongst us speak tamil and malayalam.  we have our own internal political battles and pettiness. very little of it has anything whatsoever to do with duckini, cluckini, or urdu. decades and centuries of association with delhi sultanates have only left a marginal impact - the arcot nawabs, the bEmAnis of karnataka etc. to portray these as if they form the central pieces of southern indian culture is laughable. you are better off writing about the oudh or something.

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:to rashmun---

southern india has its own cultural ethos. amongst other things it is defined by carnatic music, bharathanattiyam, chettinad cuisine, nadaswaram playing muslims, great temple architecture, kuchipudi, and our own brand of quirky cinema.  unfortunately for you, the muslims amongst us speak tamil and malayalam.  we have our own internal political battles and pettiness. very little of it has anything whatsoever to do with duckini, cluckini, or urdu. decades and centuries of association with delhi sultanates have only left a marginal impact - the arcot nawabs, the bEmAnis of karnataka etc. to portray these as if they form the central pieces of southern indian culture is laughable. you are better off writing about the oudh or something.

The most respected spiritual figure amongst SI muslims is an NI sufi who had migrated from Delhi to present day Karnataka when he was around 70 years old or so.

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“A Deccani, on being once asked whom he considered the greater personage, the Prophet Muhammad or the Saiyid, replied, with some surprise at the question, that although the Prophet was undoubtedly a great man, yet Saiyid Muhammad Gisu-daraz was a far superior order of being.” Muhammad Qasim Firishta (d. 1611)

In July 1321, about the time Ulugh Khan's army was sent to Warangal to recover the unpaid tribute owed by Pratapa Rudra, an infant son was born in Delhi to a distinguished family of Saiyids – that is, men who claimed descent from the Prophet. Although he lived most of his life in Delhi, Saiyid Muhammad Husaini Gisu Daraz would become known mainly for his work in the Deccan, where he died in 1422 at the ripe age of just over a hundred years.

As seen in the extract from Firishta's history quoted above, this figure occupies a very special place in Deccani popular religion: soon after his death his tomb-shrine in Gulbarga became the most important object of Muslim devotion in the Deccan. It remains so today. He also stands out in the Muslim mystical tradition, as he was the first Indian shaikh to put his thoughts directly to writing, as opposed to having disciples record his conversations. But most importantly, Gisu Daraz contributed to the stabilization and indigenization of Indo-Muslim society and polity in the Deccan, as earlier generations of Sufi shaikhs had already done in Tughluq north India. In the broader context of Indo-Muslim thought and practice, his career helped transform the Deccan from what had been an infidel land available for plunder by north Indian dynasts, to a legally inviolable abode of peace.

http://histories.cambridge.org/extract?id=chol9780521254847_CHOL9780521254847A004

question - why are bombay cinema producers abandoning the urduish oeuvre in film making these days and resorting to punjabi? is it because the younger generation considers the urdu oeuvre too effeminate and evoking moghal-style eunuchism unlike the more robust and muscular punjabi?

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:question - why are bombay cinema producers abandoning the urduish oeuvre in film making these days and resorting to punjabi? is it because the younger generation considers the urdu oeuvre too effeminate and evoking moghal-style eunuchism unlike the more robust and muscular punjabi?

It probably has something to do with the fact that the most of the movie producers are Punjabi.

Hellsangel wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:question - why are bombay cinema producers abandoning the urduish oeuvre in film making these days and resorting to punjabi? is it because the younger generation considers the urdu oeuvre too effeminate and evoking moghal-style eunuchism unlike the more robust and muscular punjabi?

It probably has something to do with the fact that the most of the movie producers are Punjabi.

I would agree with HA that most of the NI hindi film producers today are punjabis.

Max, if you are reading this please comment on the following, particularly the underlined words. Thanks. (Ibrahim Adil Shah was a famous Bahamani king.) 

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The 16th century collection of poems Kitab-e-Navras is interesting in many ways. The author of the text was Ibrahim Adil Shah II, the sultan of Bijapur and the invocation verses are dedicated to Sarasvati and Ganesh. Ibrahim Adil Shah II stood for religious amity and brought Hindus and Muslims together. He took the title Jagadguru Badshah and the Deccani portrait paintings show him wearing a rudraksha necklace. The syncretism did not stop with the content; the language used in the book too was a unique combination of Marathi, Persian, Arabic, Telugu and Hindi.


http://www.hindu.com/yw/2007/05/25/stories/2007052550460200.htm

Rashmun wrote:

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:Rashmun: You should forget about Bahamani sultans and concentrate on Moghuls, Aurangazeb and Akbar. UP bhaiyyas may love the Moghuls but SIs don't care for Bahamani bacchas.

Why are SI hindus performing arati at the tomb of Sultan Ahmed Bahamani? Why do they consider him to be the reincarnation of a hindu god?

So what? Gandhi kept on singing Eshwar Allah tero naam & Raam aur Rahim ek hain....while Jinnah was very upset with the comparison. Kafirs tell a hungry, pieceful hyena that it is the most peaceful creature on earth and some may even do a bhajan to it (just like you do to the moghuls). Laloo, Mulayam and CONartists are modern day examples of such kafirs who do bhajans to hungry hyenas.

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:

Rashmun wrote:

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:Rashmun: You should forget about Bahamani sultans and concentrate on Moghuls, Aurangazeb and Akbar. UP bhaiyyas may love the Moghuls but SIs don't care for Bahamani bacchas.

Why are SI hindus performing arati at the tomb of Sultan Ahmed Bahamani? Why do they consider him to be the reincarnation of a hindu god?

So what? Gandhi kept on singing Eshwar Allah tero naam & Raam aur Rahim ek hain....while Jinnah was very upset with the comparison. Kafirs tell a hungry, pieceful hyena that it is the most peaceful creature on earth and some may even do a bhajan to it (just like you do to the moghuls). Laloo, Mulayam and CONartists are modern day examples of such kafirs who do bhajans to hungry hyenas.

Are you comparing Sultan Ahmed Bahamani to a hyena? Hindus who worship him as an incarnation of Lord Shiva (Mallikarjuna) would probably get angry at you for abusing him.

Rashmun wrote:

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:

Rashmun wrote:

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:Rashmun: You should forget about Bahamani sultans and concentrate on Moghuls, Aurangazeb and Akbar. UP bhaiyyas may love the Moghuls but SIs don't care for Bahamani bacchas.

Why are SI hindus performing arati at the tomb of Sultan Ahmed Bahamani? Why do they consider him to be the reincarnation of a hindu god?

So what? Gandhi kept on singing Eshwar Allah tero naam & Raam aur Rahim ek hain....while Jinnah was very upset with the comparison. Kafirs tell a hungry, pieceful hyena that it is the most peaceful creature on earth and some may even do a bhajan to it (just like you do to the moghuls). Laloo, Mulayam and CONartists are modern day examples of such kafirs who do bhajans to hungry hyenas.

Are you comparing Sultan Ahmed Bahamani to a hyena? Hindus who worship him as an incarnation of Lord Shiva (Mallikarjuna) would probably get angry at you for abusing him.

I have seen the effects of Bahamani subhuman creatures in Hampi and Warangal. Kafirs who worship them should have their heads examined.

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:

Rashmun wrote:

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:

Rashmun wrote:

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:Rashmun: You should forget about Bahamani sultans and concentrate on Moghuls, Aurangazeb and Akbar. UP bhaiyyas may love the Moghuls but SIs don't care for Bahamani bacchas.

Why are SI hindus performing arati at the tomb of Sultan Ahmed Bahamani? Why do they consider him to be the reincarnation of a hindu god?

So what? Gandhi kept on singing Eshwar Allah tero naam & Raam aur Rahim ek hain....while Jinnah was very upset with the comparison. Kafirs tell a hungry, pieceful hyena that it is the most peaceful creature on earth and some may even do a bhajan to it (just like you do to the moghuls). Laloo, Mulayam and CONartists are modern day examples of such kafirs who do bhajans to hungry hyenas.

Are you comparing Sultan Ahmed Bahamani to a hyena? Hindus who worship him as an incarnation of Lord Shiva (Mallikarjuna) would probably get angry at you for abusing him.

I have seen the effects of Bahamani subhuman creatures in Hampi and Warangal. Kafirs who worship them should have their heads examined.

I am not sure if Ahmed Bahamani and Ibrahim Adil Shah were directly involved in the conquest of Vijaynagar. Further, the conquest of Vijaynagar was not a hindu vs muslim black and white fight. There were many complexities involved in the fight. The Vijaynagar army comprised many muslims and the Bahamany army comprised many hindus for instance. Rama Raya, the ruler of Vijaynagar at the time, had worked as an officer in the army of the Bahamanis when he was a young man.

Here is an anecdote about the malevolent....ooopps..... benevolent bahamanis---


Th.e title of Gh.a.zi. When Kondapalli (Condapilly) was
surrendered early in 1481, previous to the raid on KanchI, to be
described presently, an incident occurred which illustrates the
ferocity of the spirit of fanaticism characteristic of the Bahmani
kings.

' The King,' Firishta relates, ' having gone to view the fort, broke down
an idolatrous temple and killed some brahmans who officiated at it, with
his own hands, as a point of religion. He then gave orders for a mosque
to be erected on the foundations of the temple, and ascending the pulpit,
repeated a few prayers, distributed alms, and commanded the Khutba to
be read in his name. Khwaja Mahmud Gawan now represented that as
his Majesty had slain some infidels with his own hands, he might fairly
assume the title of Ghazi, an appellation of which he was very proud.
Muhammad Shah was the first of his race who had slain a brahman ; and
it is the belief of the Decannees that this act was inauspicious, and led to
the troubles which soon after perplexed the affairs of himself and his family,
and ended in the dissolution of the dynasty.'

The virtuous minister, it will be observed, was quite as fanatical
and bloodthirsty as his master. Akbar in the following century
earned the much desired title of GhazI in a similar way by smiting
the helpless prisoner, Hemu, his Hindu rival.^

Raid on Kanchi or Gonjeeveram. The most remarkable
military exploit of the reign was the successful raid made on KanchI
or Conjeeveram, one of the seven Hindu sacred cities, during the
course of a campaign against Vijayanagar in 1481. The remote
position of Kanchi, forty-two miles SSW. of Madras, had secured
it from Muhammadan attacks, so that the inhabitants believed
themselves to be perfectly safe. The Sultan was encamped at
Kondapalli near Bezwada, now in the Kistna (Krishna) District
of Madras, when glowing accounts of the rich booty to be obtained
in the holy city induced him to plan a surprise. The story is best
told in the words of Firishta, as follows :

' On his [Muhammad Shah's] arrival at Kondapalli [Condapilly], he was
informed by the country people that at the distance of ten days' journey
was the temple of Kanchi, the walls and roof of which were covered with
plates of gold and ornamented with precious stones, but that no iNhihammad-
an monarch had as yet seen it or even heard of its name. Muhammad
Shah accordingly selected six thousand of his best cavalry, and leaving
the rest of his army at Kondapalli, proceeded by forced marches to Kanchi.
He moved so rapidly on the last day, according to the historians of the
time, that only forty troopers kejit up with him, among which number
were Nizamu-I Mulk Bahri and Yurisli Khan Turk. On approaching the
temple some Hindus came forth, one of whom, a man of gigantic stature,
mounted on horseback, and brandishing a drawn sabre by way of defiance'
rushed full speed towards the King, and aimed a blow which the latter
parried, and with one stroke of his sword cleaved him in twain. Another
infidel then attacked the King, whose little band was shortly engaged man
to man with the enemy ; but Muhammad Shah had again the good fortune
to slay his opponent, upon which the rest of the Hindus retired into the
temple. Swarms of people, like bees, now issued from within and ranged
themselves under its walls to defend it. At length, the rest of the King's
force coming up, the temple was attacked and carried by storm with
great slaughter. An immense booty fell to the share of the victors, who
took away nothing but gold, jewels, and silver, which were abundant.
The King then [March 12, 1481] sacked the city of Kanchi, and, after
remaining there for a week, he returned to his army.'

More on bahamanis---



The story of the dynasty as it appears in the books is not attrac-
tive reading. Between 1347 and 1518 the throne was occupied
by fourteen Sultans, of whom four were murdered, and two others
were deposed and blinded. With the exception of the fifth Sultan,
a quiet peaceful man, all the sovereigns who attained maturity
were bloodthirsty fanatics. The record of their wars with the
neighbouring Hindu powers is a mass of sickening horrors. Huma-
yun was a monster, comparable only Avith the most infamous
tyrants named in liistory. Several of the Sultans were drunken
debauchees, and little is recorded about any member of the family
which is calculated to justify a favourable opinion of his character.
The only person mentioned who deserves much praise is the minister
Mahmud Gawan, and even he was fanatical and bloodthirsty. It
would be difficult to specify any definite benefit conferred upon
India by the dynasty. No doubt, as Meadows Taylor points out,
the Bahmanis gave a certain amount of encouragement to purely
Muslim learning, and constructed irrigation works in the eastern
provinces, which incidentally did good to the peasantry while
primarily securing the crown revenue. But those items to their
credit weigh lightly against the wholesale devastation wrought
by their inhuman wars, massacres, and burnings.

Misery of the common people. Our estimate of the character
of the BahmanI Sultans and the effect of their rule upon the people
committed to their charge need not be based merely upon inferences
drawn from the story of their conspicuous doings. Observations
on the conditions of life of the unregarded Hindu peasantry must
not be looked for in the pages of Muhammadan historians, whether
they deal with the north or the south. The scanty information
recorded concerning the commonalty of India in ancient times is
obtained almost wholly from the notes made by observant foreign
visitors. Such a visitor, a Russian merchant named Athanasius
Nikitin, happened to reside for a long time at Bidar and to travel
in the BahmanI dominions between the years 1470 and 1474 in
the reign of Muhammad Shah III. By a "lucky accident his notes
were preserved, and have been made accessible in an English version.

The merchant tells us that:

' The Sultan is a little man, twenty years old,i in the power of the nobles.
There is a Khorassanian Boyar [scil. Persian noble from Khurasan],
Melik Tuchar [scil. Maliku-t Tujjar, ' Lord of the merchants', or 'merchant-
prince ', a title of Khwaja Mahmud Gawan], who keeps an army of 200,000
men ; Melik Khan keeps 100,000 ; Kharat Khan, 20,000 ; and many are
the khans that keep 10,000 armed men. The Sultan goes out with 300,000
men of his own troops.

The land is overstocked with people ; but those in the country are very
miserable, whilst the nobles are extremely opulent and delight in luxury.
They are wont to be carried on their silver beds, preceded by some twenty
chargers caparisoned in gold, and followed by 300 men on horseback, and
by 500 on foot, and by horn men, ten torchbearers, and ten musicians.

The Sultan goes out hunting with his mother and his lady, and a train
of 10,000 men on horseback, 50,000 on foot ; 200 elephants adorned in
gilded armour, and in front 100 horsemen, 100 dancers, and 300 common
horses in golden clothing ; 100 monkeys, and 100 concubines, all foreign.'

The armies •were armed mobs. It is obvious that such an
overgrown establishment of armed men, women, and beasts,
controlled by a selfish minority of luxurious nobles, must have
sucked the country dry. There is no difficulty in believing the
positive statement that the common people were ' very miserable '.
The mass of the people in the Hindu Empire of Vijayanagar vvas
equally oppressed and wretched. The huge armies maintained
Were little better than armed mobs, eager to murder tens of
thousands of helpless peasants, but extremely inefficient in warfare.
Similar unwieldy hosts were maintained by the neighbouring
states, Muhammadan and Hindu. Various recorded incidents
prove that such masses of undisciplined men had little military
value, and often were routed by quite small forces of active
assailants. But, on the whole, the armed mobs of the Muham-
madan Sultans were a little more efficient than those of their
Hindu opponents, and, in consequence, usually were victorious.

ashdoc wrote:Here is an anecdote about the malevolent....ooopps..... benevolent bahamanis---


Th.e title of Gh.a.zi. When Kondapalli (Condapilly) was
surrendered early in 1481, previous to the raid on KanchI, to be
described presently, an incident occurred which illustrates the
ferocity of the spirit of fanaticism characteristic of the Bahmani
kings.

' The King,' Firishta relates, ' having gone to view the fort, broke down
an idolatrous temple and killed some brahmans who officiated at it, with
his own hands, as a point of religion. He then gave orders for a mosque
to be erected on the foundations of the temple, and ascending the pulpit,
repeated a few prayers, distributed alms, and commanded the Khutba to
be read in his name. Khwaja Mahmud Gawan now represented that as
his Majesty had slain some infidels with his own hands, he might fairly
assume the title of Ghazi, an appellation of which he was very proud.
Muhammad Shah was the first of his race who had slain a brahman ; and
it is the belief of the Decannees that this act was inauspicious, and led to
the troubles which soon after perplexed the affairs of himself and his family,
and ended in the dissolution of the dynasty.'

The virtuous minister, it will be observed, was quite as fanatical
and bloodthirsty as his master. Akbar in the following century
earned the much desired title of GhazI in a similar way by smiting
the helpless prisoner, Hemu, his Hindu rival.^

Raid on Kanchi or Gonjeeveram. The most remarkable
military exploit of the reign was the successful raid made on KanchI
or Conjeeveram, one of the seven Hindu sacred cities, during the
course of a campaign against Vijayanagar in 1481. The remote
position of Kanchi, forty-two miles SSW. of Madras, had secured
it from Muhammadan attacks, so that the inhabitants believed
themselves to be perfectly safe. The Sultan was encamped at
Kondapalli near Bezwada, now in the Kistna (Krishna) District
of Madras, when glowing accounts of the rich booty to be obtained
in the holy city induced him to plan a surprise. The story is best
told in the words of Firishta, as follows :

' On his [Muhammad Shah's] arrival at Kondapalli [Condapilly], he was
informed by the country people that at the distance of ten days' journey
was the temple of Kanchi, the walls and roof of which were covered with
plates of gold and ornamented with precious stones, but that no iNhihammad-
an monarch had as yet seen it or even heard of its name. Muhammad
Shah accordingly selected six thousand of his best cavalry, and leaving
the rest of his army at Kondapalli, proceeded by forced marches to Kanchi.
He moved so rapidly on the last day, according to the historians of the
time, that only forty troopers kejit up with him, among which number
were Nizamu-I Mulk Bahri and Yurisli Khan Turk. On approaching the
temple some Hindus came forth, one of whom, a man of gigantic stature,
mounted on horseback, and brandishing a drawn sabre by way of defiance'
rushed full speed towards the King, and aimed a blow which the latter
parried, and with one stroke of his sword cleaved him in twain. Another
infidel then attacked the King, whose little band was shortly engaged man
to man with the enemy ; but Muhammad Shah had again the good fortune
to slay his opponent, upon which the rest of the Hindus retired into the
temple. Swarms of people, like bees, now issued from within and ranged
themselves under its walls to defend it. At length, the rest of the King's
force coming up, the temple was attacked and carried by storm with
great slaughter. An immense booty fell to the share of the victors, who
took away nothing but gold, jewels, and silver, which were abundant.
The King then [March 12, 1481] sacked the city of Kanchi, and, after
remaining there for a week, he returned to his army.'

even ashdoc thinks the material he is giving is spurious--full of lies and falsehoods-- which is why he does not give the source of his information.

Inspite of all this , the bahmanis failed to convert the majority of their subjects to islam---how sad....


The Muhammadan population of the Deccan. The Bah-
manl Sultans failed in the atrocious attempt made more than once
by members of the dynasty to exterminate the Hindu population
of the Deccan, or in default of extermination to drive it by force
into the fold of Islam. They succeeded in killing hundreds of
thousands of men, women, and children, and in making consider-
able numbers of ' converts ' ; but in spite of all their efforts
the population continues to be Hindu in the main, the percentage
of Musalmans in the Nizam's Dominions and the Bijapur District
at present being only about eleven. The origin of that section of
the inhabitants, as noted by Meadows Taylor, is mainly a conse-
quence of the Bahmani rule, under which large numbers of Persians,
Turks, Arabs, and Moguls settled in the country and formed
unions with native women. Many Hindu families also were
forcibly converted, and the continuance of Muslim dynasties in
large areas for centuries has kept up or even increased the propor-
tion of the Musalman minority, Muhammadans being usually
more fertile than Hindus. The author cited was willing to credit
the Bahmani influence with ' a general amelioration of manners '
in the Deccan, but that opinion might be disputed. The monu-
ments of Hindu civilization certainly suffered severely.

Rashmun wrote:

ashdoc wrote:Here is an anecdote about the malevolent....ooopps..... benevolent bahamanis---


Th.e title of Gh.a.zi. When Kondapalli (Condapilly) was
surrendered early in 1481, previous to the raid on KanchI, to be
described presently, an incident occurred which illustrates the
ferocity of the spirit of fanaticism characteristic of the Bahmani
kings.

' The King,' Firishta relates, ' having gone to view the fort, broke down
an idolatrous temple and killed some brahmans who officiated at it, with
his own hands, as a point of religion. He then gave orders for a mosque
to be erected on the foundations of the temple, and ascending the pulpit,
repeated a few prayers, distributed alms, and commanded the Khutba to
be read in his name. Khwaja Mahmud Gawan now represented that as
his Majesty had slain some infidels with his own hands, he might fairly
assume the title of Ghazi, an appellation of which he was very proud.
Muhammad Shah was the first of his race who had slain a brahman ; and
it is the belief of the Decannees that this act was inauspicious, and led to
the troubles which soon after perplexed the affairs of himself and his family,
and ended in the dissolution of the dynasty.'

The virtuous minister, it will be observed, was quite as fanatical
and bloodthirsty as his master. Akbar in the following century
earned the much desired title of GhazI in a similar way by smiting
the helpless prisoner, Hemu, his Hindu rival.^

Raid on Kanchi or Gonjeeveram. The most remarkable
military exploit of the reign was the successful raid made on KanchI
or Conjeeveram, one of the seven Hindu sacred cities, during the
course of a campaign against Vijayanagar in 1481. The remote
position of Kanchi, forty-two miles SSW. of Madras, had secured
it from Muhammadan attacks, so that the inhabitants believed
themselves to be perfectly safe. The Sultan was encamped at
Kondapalli near Bezwada, now in the Kistna (Krishna) District
of Madras, when glowing accounts of the rich booty to be obtained
in the holy city induced him to plan a surprise. The story is best
told in the words of Firishta, as follows :

' On his [Muhammad Shah's] arrival at Kondapalli [Condapilly], he was
informed by the country people that at the distance of ten days' journey
was the temple of Kanchi, the walls and roof of which were covered with
plates of gold and ornamented with precious stones, but that no iNhihammad-
an monarch had as yet seen it or even heard of its name. Muhammad
Shah accordingly selected six thousand of his best cavalry, and leaving
the rest of his army at Kondapalli, proceeded by forced marches to Kanchi.
He moved so rapidly on the last day, according to the historians of the
time, that only forty troopers kejit up with him, among which number
were Nizamu-I Mulk Bahri and Yurisli Khan Turk. On approaching the
temple some Hindus came forth, one of whom, a man of gigantic stature,
mounted on horseback, and brandishing a drawn sabre by way of defiance'
rushed full speed towards the King, and aimed a blow which the latter
parried, and with one stroke of his sword cleaved him in twain. Another
infidel then attacked the King, whose little band was shortly engaged man
to man with the enemy ; but Muhammad Shah had again the good fortune
to slay his opponent, upon which the rest of the Hindus retired into the
temple. Swarms of people, like bees, now issued from within and ranged
themselves under its walls to defend it. At length, the rest of the King's
force coming up, the temple was attacked and carried by storm with
great slaughter. An immense booty fell to the share of the victors, who
took away nothing but gold, jewels, and silver, which were abundant.
The King then [March 12, 1481] sacked the city of Kanchi, and, after
remaining there for a week, he returned to his army.'

even ashdoc thinks the material he is giving is spurious--full of lies and falsehoods-- which is why he does not give the source of his information.

http://archive.org/stream/oxfordhistoryofi00smituoft/oxfordhistoryofi00smituoft_djvu.txt

A book written in 1911 by a british historian cannot be taken seriously for the simple reason that the british at that time were doing all they could do whip up communal passions and make hindus and muslims fight with one another. One way the british did this was by distorting indian history.

Rashmun wrote:A book written in 1911 by a british historian cannot be taken seriously for the simple reason that the british at that time were doing all they could do whip up communal passions and make hindus and muslims fight with one another. One way the british did this was by distorting indian history.

point to be noted , your honour----only those who fit into the pet theories of maulana rashmunullah have honourable intentions , and the rest are all upto some sinister game

ashdoc wrote:

Rashmun wrote:A book written in 1911 by a british historian cannot be taken seriously for the simple reason that the british at that time were doing all they could do whip up communal passions and make hindus and muslims fight with one another. One way the british did this was by distorting indian history.

point to be noted , your honour----only those who fit into the pet theories of maulana rashmunullah have honourable intentions , and the rest are all upto some sinister game

Since you are unable to restrict your argument to the facts under consideration you are obliged to start making personal attacks on me. This only shows that you have yourself realized that you have lost the argument and that your only recourse now is to launch personal attacks to try and somehow divert attention from the issues under consideration.

Rashmun wrote:

ashdoc wrote:

Rashmun wrote:A book written in 1911 by a british historian cannot be taken seriously for the simple reason that the british at that time were doing all they could do whip up communal passions and make hindus and muslims fight with one another. One way the british did this was by distorting indian history.

point to be noted , your honour----only those who fit into the pet theories of maulana rashmunullah have honourable intentions , and the rest are all upto some sinister game

Since you are unable to restrict your argument to the facts under consideration you are obliged to start making personal attacks on me. This only shows that you have yourself realized that you have lost the argument and that your only recourse now is to launch personal attacks to try and somehow divert attention from the issues under consideration.

if you declare any historian who tells the truth to be a person out to whip communal passions then who is making personal attacks here ??

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:i've only heard it used on the streets of chennai. chennai street tamil is slowly going out of vogue. it's an interesting patois with lots of telugu and probably arabic words thrown in.

Agree.... Everytime I visit India, I realize often that I am the only guy who is still talking/switching over to madras Bashai. Conductors, auto drivers, shopkeepers have all come in from outside madras over hte last 20 years and are killing the madras Street bashai.

When I am upset, I switch over to Madras Street bashai and the Coimbatore and trichy wallas assume that I am a madrasi outsider....and hv to force myself to local iShtyle.  Not only I have to watch my english accent _ which is so so very mixed up - not I need to worry about Tamil accent as well.