Re: The Benevolent Bahamani (clarifying misconceptions of Max and others)

by MaxEntropy_Man Thu Jun 13, 2013 5:11 pm

here is the biggest problem i have with you when you discuss this and related subjects -- your tendency to take a tiny sliver of an already marginal subculture and present it as if it is the central feature. let me give you an analogy -- when you discuss american music, one generally thinks of jazz, the blues and the great broadway musicals. you don't take zydeco music and say it defines american music. what you do whenever we discuss southern indian culture is the equivalent of that.

by ashdoc Thu Jun 13, 2013 5:16 pm

Destruction of vijaynagar by successor states of bahamanis---

Battle of Talikota, 1565. If mere numbers could have assured
victory, the confidence of the rulers and people of Vijayanagar
would have been justified. Estimates of the forces at the command
of Rama Raja vary, but it seems certain that his vast host numbered
between half a million and a million of men, besides a multitude
of elephants and a considerable amount of artillery. On the other
side, the Sultan of Ahmadnagar brought on the ground a park of
no less than six hundred guns of various calibres. The total of
the allies' army is supposed to have been about half that of the
Vijayanagar host.

The battle was fought on January 23, 1565, on the plain between
the Ingaligi ford and Mudgal. At first the Hindus had the advan-
tage, but they suffered severely from a salvo of the Ahmadnagar
guns shotted with bags of copper coin, and from a vigorous cavalry
charge. Their complete rout followed on the capture of Rama
Raja, who was promptly decapitated by the Sultan of Ahmad-
nagar with his own hand. No attempt was made to retrieve the
disaster. About 100,000 Hindus were slain, and the great river
ran red with blood. The princes fled from the city with countless
treasures loaded upon more than five hundred elephants, and the
proud capital lay at the mercy of the victors who occupied it almost
immediately.

' The plunder was so great that every private man in the allied army
became rich in gold, jewels, effects, tents, arms, horses, and slaves ; as
the sultans left every person in possession of what he had acquired, only
taking elephants for their own use.'

Ruin of Vijayanagar. The ruin wrought on the magnificent
city may be described in the words of SewcR, who is fan)iliar with
the scene of its desolation. When the princes fled with their
treasures,

' then a panic seized the city. The truth became at last apparent.
This was not a defeat merely, it was a cataclysm. All hope was gone. The myriad dwellers in the city were left defenceless. No retreat, no
flight was possible except to a few, for the pack-oxen and carts had almost
all followed the forces to the war, and they had not returned. Nothing
could be done but to bury all treasures, to arm the younger men, and to
wait. Next day the place became a prey to the robber tribes and jungle
people of the neighbourhood. Hordes of Brinjaris, Lambadis, Kurubas,
and the like pounced down on the hapless city and looted the stores
and shops, carrying off great quantities of riches. Couto states that there
were six concerted attacks by these people during the day.

The third day saw the beginning of the end. The victorious Musalmans
Tiad halted on the field of battle for rest and refreshment, but now they
had reached the capital, and from that time forward for a space of five
months Vijayanagar knew no rest. The enemy had come to destroy, and
they carried out their object relentlessly. They slaughtered the people
without mercy ; broke down the temples and palaces ; and wreaked such
savage vengeance on the abode of the kings, that with the exception of
a few great stone-built temples and walls, nothing now remains but a heap
of ruins to mark the spot where once the stately buildings stood. They
demolished the statues, and even succeeded in breaking the limbs of the
huge Narasimha monolith. Nothing seemed to escape them. They broke
up the pavilions standing on the huge platform from which the kings used
to watch the festivals, and overthrew all the carved work. They lit huge
fires in the magnificently decorated buildings forming the temple of Vittha-
laswami near the river, and smashed its exquisite stone sculptures. With
fire and sword, with crowbars and axes, they carried on day after day
their work of destruction. Never perhaps in the history of the world has
such havoc been wrought, and wrought so suddenly, on so splendid
a city ; teeming with a wealthy and industrious population in the full
plenitude of prosperity one day, and on the next seized, pillaged, and
reduced to ruins, amid scenes of savage massacre and horrors beggaring
description.'

The pathetic language of the Hebrew prophet lamenting the ruin
of Jerusalem applies accurately to the Indian tragedy :

' How doth the city sit solitary, that was full of people ! how is she become
as a widow ! she that was great among the nations, and a princess among
the provinces, how is she become tributary ! . . . The young and the old
lie on the ground in the streets : my virgins and my young men are fallen
by the sword. . . . How is the gold become dim ! how is the most fine gold
changed ! the stones of the sanctuary are poured out in the top of every
street;.' ^

by Guest Thu Jun 13, 2013 5:32 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:here is the biggest problem i have with you when you discuss this and related subjects -- your tendency to take a tiny sliver of an already marginal subculture and present it as if it is the central feature. let me give you an analogy -- when you discuss american music, one generally thinks of jazz, the blues and the great broadway musicals. you don't take zydeco music and say it defines american music. what you do whenever we discuss southern indian culture is the equivalent of that.

This will tell you the duration of the Bahamani empire and also see the map for the area controlled by these kings:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bahmani_Sultanate

When the Bahamani kingdom collapsed (after 180 years) it eventually gave rise to five different kingdoms. Perhaps the largest of these was Bijapur. Just see the map of Bijapur and its duration of rule:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bijapur_Sultanate

Facts are sacred in science as in history. When you dismiss the Bahamani kingdom and its descendant kingdoms like Bijapur as being representative of a marginal sub-culture you are contradicting and attempting to negate historical truth.

by Guest Thu Jun 13, 2013 5:34 pm

https://such.forumotion.com/t4532-h-m-synthesis-conquest-of-vijayanagar

by MaxEntropy_Man Thu Jun 13, 2013 5:55 pm

in the long history of my region spanning over two thousand years, the sangam poets, kamban, the chera, chola, pandiyars, and the rich literary and musical output of tamilians are the defining and central features. a two hundred year old kingdom in a neighboring region which may or may not have had a marginal effect on that history is not of any interest to me.

by Guest Thu Jun 13, 2013 6:00 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:in the long history of my region spanning over two thousand years, the sangam poets, kamban, the chera, chola, pandiyars, and the rich literary and musical output of tamilians are the defining and central features. a two hundred year old kingdom in a neighboring region which may or may not have had a marginal effect on that history is not of any interest to me.

what do you say to this:

http://www.indianetzone.com/52/ibrahim_adil_shah_ii.htm

is there any other king you know of who was as great a connoisseur of music as the Bahamani ruler Sultan Ibrahim Adil Shah of Bijapur? I think not.

by Guest Thu Jun 13, 2013 6:02 pm

The Benevolent Bahamani (clarifying misconceptions of Max and others) - Page 2 Bijapur-sultanate-map

Above: A map of Bijapur. As you can see the Bijapur empire included parts of present day Tamil Nadu.

by MaxEntropy_Man Thu Jun 13, 2013 6:05 pm

that maybe so but there are nearly no identifiable cultural markers today that are readily identifiable as coming from this empire. most tamilians are not even aware of them and that is naturally so because they simply did not have any impact on our region or our culture.

by Guest Thu Jun 13, 2013 6:07 pm

Rashmun wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:in the long history of my region spanning over two thousand years, the sangam poets, kamban, the chera, chola, pandiyars, and the rich literary and musical output of tamilians are the defining and central features. a two hundred year old kingdom in a neighboring region which may or may not have had a marginal effect on that history is not of any interest to me.

what do you say to this:

http://www.indianetzone.com/52/ibrahim_adil_shah_ii.htm

is there any other king you know of who was as great a connoisseur of music as the Bahamani ruler Sultan Ibrahim Adil Shah of Bijapur? I think not.

Max i seem to recall you saying that you enjoyed Dhrupad music. What do you think of Sultan Ibrahim Adil Shah's contribution to Dhrupad music (explained in the article whose link i gave in my earlier post). Do you know of any other Indian king who has done so much for classical music?

by Guest Thu Jun 13, 2013 6:09 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:that maybe so but there are nearly no identifiable cultural markers today that are readily identifiable as coming from this empire. most tamilians are not even aware of them and that is naturally so because they simply did not have any impact on our region or our culture.

Most tamilians are probably also unaware of dhrupad music. But since you know and recognize the importance of indian classical music like dhrupad i am confident that you at least will recognize the contribution of the Bahamani ruler Sultan Ibrahim Adil Shah towards the development of dhrupad music.

by MaxEntropy_Man Thu Jun 13, 2013 6:10 pm

Rashmun wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:in the long history of my region spanning over two thousand years, the sangam poets, kamban, the chera, chola, pandiyars, and the rich literary and musical output of tamilians are the defining and central features. a two hundred year old kingdom in a neighboring region which may or may not have had a marginal effect on that history is not of any interest to me.

what do you say to this:

http://www.indianetzone.com/52/ibrahim_adil_shah_ii.htm

is there any other king you know of who was as great a connoisseur of music as the Bahamani ruler Sultan Ibrahim Adil Shah of Bijapur? I think not.

Max i seem to recall you saying that you enjoyed Dhrupad music. What do you think of Sultan Ibrahim Adil Shah's contribution to Dhrupad music (explained in the article whose link i gave in my earlier post). Do you know of any other Indian king who has done so much for classical music?

i do love dhrupad. i think it is austere, minimalistic, and very majestic. but i thought mian tan-sen akbar's court musician was the one responsible for shaping it into what it is today. i'll read your link.

by ashdoc Thu Jun 13, 2013 11:54 pm

Rashmun wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:that maybe so but there are nearly no identifiable cultural markers today that are readily identifiable as coming from this empire. most tamilians are not even aware of them and that is naturally so because they simply did not have any impact on our region or our culture.

Most tamilians are probably also unaware of dhrupad music. But since you know and recognize the importance of indian classical music like dhrupad i am confident that you at least will recognize the contribution of the Bahamani ruler Sultan Ibrahim Adil Shah towards the development of dhrupad music.

Vincent Smith's opinion of Ibrahim Adil Shah----

Ibrahim Adil Shah I--- It is needless to follow in detail the wars and
intrigues which lasted throughout the reign. The Sultan towards
the end of his life abandoned himself to drink and debauchery,
ruining his health and temper. The unlucky physicians who
failed to cure him ( his sexually transmitted diseases ) were beheaded or trampled under foot by
elephants. Ibrahim came to a dishonoured death in 1557, and was
buried at GogI by the side of his father and grandfather.

by Guest Fri Jun 14, 2013 12:03 am

ashdoc wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:that maybe so but there are nearly no identifiable cultural markers today that are readily identifiable as coming from this empire. most tamilians are not even aware of them and that is naturally so because they simply did not have any impact on our region or our culture.

Most tamilians are probably also unaware of dhrupad music. But since you know and recognize the importance of indian classical music like dhrupad i am confident that you at least will recognize the contribution of the Bahamani ruler Sultan Ibrahim Adil Shah towards the development of dhrupad music.

Vincent Smith's opinion of Ibrahim Adil Shah----

Ibrahim Adil Shah I--- It is needless to follow in detail the wars and
intrigues which lasted throughout the reign. The Sultan towards
the end of his life abandoned himself to drink and debauchery,
ruining his health and temper. The unlucky physicians who
failed to cure him ( his sexually transmitted diseases ) were beheaded or trampled under foot by
elephants. Ibrahim came to a dishonoured death in 1557, and was
buried at GogI by the side of his father and grandfather.

You have evidently copied and pasted the above from some Chaddi website. Smith was definitely biased but I do not believe he would make the elementary mistake which was immediately obvious to me when I read the paragraph you give. From which Chaddi website did you copy paste the above trash?

by ashdoc Fri Jun 14, 2013 12:14 am

Rashmun wrote:
ashdoc wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:that maybe so but there are nearly no identifiable cultural markers today that are readily identifiable as coming from this empire. most tamilians are not even aware of them and that is naturally so because they simply did not have any impact on our region or our culture.

Most tamilians are probably also unaware of dhrupad music. But since you know and recognize the importance of indian classical music like dhrupad i am confident that you at least will recognize the contribution of the Bahamani ruler Sultan Ibrahim Adil Shah towards the development of dhrupad music.

Vincent Smith's opinion of Ibrahim Adil Shah----

Ibrahim Adil Shah I--- It is needless to follow in detail the wars and
intrigues which lasted throughout the reign. The Sultan towards
the end of his life abandoned himself to drink and debauchery,
ruining his health and temper. The unlucky physicians who
failed to cure him ( his sexually transmitted diseases ) were beheaded or trampled under foot by
elephants. Ibrahim came to a dishonoured death in 1557, and was
buried at GogI by the side of his father and grandfather.

You have evidently copied and pasted the above from some Chaddi website. Smith was definitely biased but I do not believe he would make the elementary mistake which was immediately obvious to me when I read the paragraph you give. From which Chaddi website did you copy paste the above trash?

http://archive.org/stream/oxfordhistoryofi00smituoft/oxfordhistoryofi00smituoft_djvu.txt

by ashdoc Fri Jun 14, 2013 12:18 am

ashdoc wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
ashdoc wrote:
Rashmun wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:that maybe so but there are nearly no identifiable cultural markers today that are readily identifiable as coming from this empire. most tamilians are not even aware of them and that is naturally so because they simply did not have any impact on our region or our culture.

Most tamilians are probably also unaware of dhrupad music. But since you know and recognize the importance of indian classical music like dhrupad i am confident that you at least will recognize the contribution of the Bahamani ruler Sultan Ibrahim Adil Shah towards the development of dhrupad music.

Vincent Smith's opinion of Ibrahim Adil Shah----

Ibrahim Adil Shah I--- It is needless to follow in detail the wars and
intrigues which lasted throughout the reign. The Sultan towards
the end of his life abandoned himself to drink and debauchery,
ruining his health and temper. The unlucky physicians who
failed to cure him ( his sexually transmitted diseases ) were beheaded or trampled under foot by
elephants. Ibrahim came to a dishonoured death in 1557, and was
buried at GogI by the side of his father and grandfather.

You have evidently copied and pasted the above from some Chaddi website. Smith was definitely biased but I do not believe he would make the elementary mistake which was immediately obvious to me when I read the paragraph you give. From which Chaddi website did you copy paste the above trash?

http://archive.org/stream/oxfordhistoryofi00smituoft/oxfordhistoryofi00smituoft_djvu.txt

full para from the above link---

Ibrahim Adil Shah I. The new ruler, who assumed the title
of Ibrahim Adil Shah, rejected foreign practices, including the use
of the ShIa head-dress, and reverted completely to SunnI ritual.
He favoured the Deccanees, with their allies the Abyssinians, as
against the Persians and other foreigners. Many of the strangers
entered the service of Rama Raya the de facto ruler of Vijayanagar.
At this time revolutions occurred at Vijayanagar Avhich will be
noticed more particularly in the history of that kingdom. In 1535
the Bijapur Sultan accepted the invitation of the chief of one of
the Hindu factions and paid a visit to Vijayanagar lasting a week.
He departed enriched by an enormous present of gold coin, in
addition to valuable horses and elephants. Subsequently the
Sultans of Bidar, Ahmadnagar, and Golkonda combined against
Bijapur, which emerged victorious, thanks to the ability of the
minister, Asad Khan, whose reputation is scarcely inferior to that
of Mahmud Gawan. It is needless to follow in detail the wars and
intrigues which lasted throughout the reign. The Sultan towards
the end of his life abandoned himself to drink and debauchery,
ruining his health and temper. The unlucky physicians who
failed to cure him were beheaded or trampled under foot by
elephants. Ibrahim came to a dishonoured death in 1557, and was
buried at GogI by the side of his father and grandfather.

by Guest Fri Jun 14, 2013 12:18 am

Leaving aside the fact that Smith is obviously biased you should have noticed that the extracts you give are Smith's views on Ibrahim Adil Shah I whereas I have been talking of Sultan Ibrahim Adil Shah II in this thread. Please be more careful henceforth. I am excusing you this time.

by ashdoc Fri Jun 14, 2013 12:28 am

Rashmun wrote:Leaving aside the fact that Smith is obviously biased you should have noticed that the extracts you give are Smith's views on Ibrahim Adil Shah I whereas I have been talking of Sultan Ibrahim Adil Shah II in this thread. Please be more careful henceforth. I am excusing you this time.

well , i have shown that from every good ibrahim there was a bad ibrahim too---among the bahamanis and their successor states i mean .

these people were nothing but crude barbarians .

by Guest Fri Jun 14, 2013 12:32 am

ashdoc wrote:
Rashmun wrote:Leaving aside the fact that Smith is obviously biased you should have noticed that the extracts you give are Smith's views on Ibrahim Adil Shah I whereas I have been talking of Sultan Ibrahim Adil Shah II in this thread. Please be more careful henceforth. I am excusing you this time.

well , i have shown that from every good ibrahim there was a bad ibrahim too---among the bahamanis and their successor states i mean .

these people were nothing but crude barbarians .

Ajatashatru, King of Magadha, killed his own father after imprisoning him and also carried out a genocide of the Vajjian tribes. And yet he was an able ruler and an efficient administrator according to Budhist and Jain tradition. Ajatashatru was a Hindu. I can give many more similar examples.

by Guest Fri Jun 14, 2013 12:37 am

Rashmun wrote:
ashdoc wrote:
Rashmun wrote:Leaving aside the fact that Smith is obviously biased you should have noticed that the extracts you give are Smith's views on Ibrahim Adil Shah I whereas I have been talking of Sultan Ibrahim Adil Shah II in this thread. Please be more careful henceforth. I am excusing you this time.

well , i have shown that from every good ibrahim there was a bad ibrahim too---among the bahamanis and their successor states i mean .

these people were nothing but crude barbarians .

Ajatashatru, King of Magadha, killed his own father after imprisoning him and also carried out a genocide of the Vajjian tribes. And yet he was an able ruler and an efficient administrator according to Budhist and Jain tradition. Ajatashatru was a Hindu. I can give many more similar examples.

King Sasanka of Bengal gained considerable fame as an anti-Budhist crusader culminating in his cutting down of the tree under which the Budha was believed to have attained enlightenment. Sasanka was a Hindu. More such examples can be given if desired.

by ashdoc Fri Jun 14, 2013 4:13 am

sasanka did what he did because buddhism was proving to be a threat to the very existence of hinduism in this land .

the muslim religion was not being threatened in the same way . what sasanka did was for survival of the faith . muslims did what they did out of pure fanaticism .

by Guest Fri Jun 14, 2013 7:28 am

At the time of Sasanka Budhism was already in decline. Further, Hinduism triumphed over Budhism not through persecution but because some wise Hindus declared Budha to be a Hindu god (ninety avatar of Vishnu). Consistent persecution of Budhism would have had the opposite effect from the one desired.

by ashdoc Fri Jun 14, 2013 7:38 am

the threat from buddhism was there anyway .

hindu persecution of buddhism for survival cannot be compared to islamic persecution of hindus .

hindus did not invade buddhist lands to persecute them . muslims invaded our lands and persecuted us after conquering us .

by Guest Fri Jun 14, 2013 7:41 am

Rashmun wrote:At the time of Sasanka Budhism was already in decline. Further, Hinduism triumphed over Budhism not through persecution but because some wise Hindus declared Budha to be a Hindu god (~~ninety~~ ninth avatar of Vishnu). Consistent persecution of Budhism would have had the opposite effect from the one desired.

by Guest Fri Jun 14, 2013 9:05 am

To Ashdoc :
It should be recognized that the early Hindus were immigrants into India. This is evident from internal evidence present in the Rig Veda which clearly indicates that large portions of this sacred text was composed outside present day India. In its own way Hinduism destroyed many tribal religions by the process of absorption. Tribals worshipping the snake were absorbed by putting a snake around Shiva, tribals worshipping the bull were absorbed by including Nandi in the Hindu pantheon and so on.

by ashdoc Fri Jun 14, 2013 9:13 am

at least some importance was given to the earlier gods . but allah is a jealous god who does not allow other gods to exist...

by Vakavaka Pakapaka Fri Jun 14, 2013 9:46 am

According to Rashmun, Persians, Turks, Tujiks, etc., contributed to whatever positives India has.

He is like a wife who thinks of the men in the neighborhood while "sleeping" with her devoted husband.

by Guest Fri Jun 14, 2013 10:28 am

to Vakavaka:
it is Tajiks, not Tujiks. Also, i have in the past written extensively praising Sankhya, Nyaya-Vaisesika, Lokayata, Indian astronomers like Aryabhata, etc. so your personal attack has no merit.

by Guest Fri Jun 14, 2013 10:31 am

to ashdoc:
a budhist or christian or muslim would argue that in their religion at least theoretically there is equality of everyone whereas in hinduism we have the caste system where one group of people are considered inherently superior to others on the basis of who they are born to. The Vedas say that brahmins came out from the mouth of God(Brahman) whereas sudras came out from the feet of God.

by Guest Fri Jun 14, 2013 12:32 pm

A humble abode of God that two communities have shared for five centuries

The Benevolent Bahamani (clarifying misconceptions of Max and others) - Page 2 102061_thump

The Benevolent Bahamani (clarifying misconceptions of Max and others) - Page 2 102061_thump

The five-century old mosque functions as a temple for six days in a week, transforming itself into a mosque on the seventh day. Barring Fridays when Muslims pray in it, Hindus have a free run of the mosque as a temple.

Constructed by Ibrahim Adil Shah II, the Bahmani Sultan known for his efforts to foster communal harmony among people of all religion, the structure resembling a mosque hosts idols of Hindu Gods like Shiva, Nandi and Ganesha as well as paintings of Marula Shankara Devaru, Ibrahim Adil Shah and his wife.

“Ibrahim Adil Shah II, who ruled between 1556 and 1627, formed certain rules for worship over here. It is being followed as tradition. No single objections has been raised since then. History is a witness to this communal harmony,” said Hucheshwar Swami, Pontiff of Hucheshwar Mutt, Kamathagi-Kotekal. The mutt manages Girimath.

The temple conducts a car festival the day after Ganesha Chaturthi.. The temple authorities either advance or postpone the car festival if it is Friday. Thousands of Muslims participate in the car festival and donate money.

History of temple

According to the locals, Adil Shah II was travelling when he sent his guards to find a place where he could pray. The guards found the ideal place, but found Maralu Shankara Devaru, a follower of Allama Prabhu meditating at the spot.

Unable to wake up Devaru who was in deep meditation, the guards decided to evict him physically, but the Sultan arrived in time and prevented them from doing so.

Adil Shah waited for Devaru to finish with his meditation and had a long conversation with him. So impressed was the king with Devaru’s scholarship and ideas on brotherhood, that he ordered the construction of a temple.

A signed transfer deed on a copper plate was handed over to the saint with the rider that “No festivals should be held at the mosque on Fridays and it be should be left free for Muslims to offer prayers on Fridays.”

The record even now is safe with the Desai family at Kotekal.

About Ibrahim Adil Shah II

Ibrahim Adil Shah, the fifth king of the Adil Shahi dynasty, is known in history as "Jagadguru Badshah." He tried to bring in cultural harmony between the Hindus and Muslims through music. He was a great lover of music, played musical instruments, sang and composed praises of Hindu deities Saraswati and Ganapati.

He wrote a book Kitab-E-Navras (Book of Nine Rasas) in Dakhani. It is a collection of 59 poems and 17 couplets. According to his court-poet Zuhuri, he wrote it to introduce the theory of nine Rasas, which occupies most important place in Indian aesthetics, to acquaint people who were only brought up in Persian ethos. The book opens with prayer to Saraswati, the Goddess of learning. He claimed that his father was divine Ganapati and mother the Holy Saraswati.

http://www.deccanherald.com/content/102061/temple-6-days-mosque-friday.html

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