I browsed and like this book- Ungifted:Intelligence redefined

by Petrichor Mon Jun 17, 2013 5:44 pm

I am also looking for a good historical account of how theism won over Buddhism in southern India.

by Guest Mon Jun 17, 2013 6:23 pm

I am more interested in why than how. Why? Is it because buddhism is too abstract and ppl need a certain level of intelligence to grasp and follow it and theism is easy to follow even for the layman?
I also heard that it was wiped out from india because it was too rigid and had negative undertones (like burning the vedas and other scriptures) whereas theism (read hinduism) is all encompassing and doesn't deny other paths?
The concept of theism is more appealing to the masses than buddhism?

why O why?

by Petrichor Mon Jun 17, 2013 6:57 pm

It is a fascinating story - buddhist monks roamed around and almost always elevator pitched to the Kings. It was a top-down sale. My hypothesis is that illiteracy, massive collective fear of the elements, wild animals, spirits, demons etc kept the populace tied to theistic impulses. The Buddhist monks while they succeeded temporarily to convince the Kings and the elitist courtiers, faced a backlash first from the theistic elites who cleverly steered the illiterate masses to back them up - they fired on two cylinders - one, intellectual and the second, they relied on the superstitions, voodoo beliefs of the masses to support them. There is a certain comfort in 'stories' from mythology, moral parables dished out from under the trees and moonlit village squares when compared to the abstract and terrifying concept of nothingness in Buddhist core principles, which must have required enormous courage to accept.

by Guest Mon Jun 17, 2013 7:57 pm

Muezzin-Bar'chu wrote:It is a fascinating story - buddhist monks roamed around and almost always elevator pitched to the Kings. It was a top-down sale. My hypothesis is that illiteracy, massive collective fear of the elements, wild animals, spirits, demons etc kept the populace tied to theistic impulses. The Buddhist monks while they succeeded temporarily to convince the Kings and the elitist courtiers, faced a backlash first from the theistic elites who cleverly steered the illiterate masses to back them up - they fired on two cylinders - one, intellectual and the second, they relied on the superstitions, voodoo beliefs of the masses to support them. There is a certain comfort in 'stories' from mythology, moral parables dished out from under the trees and moonlit village squares when compared to the abstract and terrifying concept of nothingness in Buddhist core principles, which must have required enormous courage to accept.

I agree. Makes sense. The same trend can be seen in the current times too. It's always comforting to believe that there's a higher power outside of you to protect you and watch you over than to believe in the nothingness or that 'you are It' and draw strength from within . Rituals are easier to do and are more assuring than doing quiet meditation. Even in hinduism, Dvaitam is more popular than advaitam. Babas have mass blind following than the enlightened ones like ramana maharshi. I believe that this will be so until the end of time.

by yogi Mon Jun 17, 2013 11:12 pm

kinnera wrote:I am more interested in why than how. Why? Is it because buddhism is too abstract and ppl need a certain level of intelligence to grasp and follow it and theism is easy to follow even for the layman?
I also heard that it was wiped out from india because it was too rigid and had negative undertones (like burning the vedas and other scriptures) whereas theism (read hinduism) is all encompassing and doesn't deny other paths?
The concept of theism is more appealing to the masses than buddhism?

why O why?

Buddhism laid emphasis on practical morality and equality unlike the vedic religion which emphasised on sacrifice and ritual ceremonies and perpetuated inequalities.
Buddhism preached the people to follow a middle path and avoid ascetisicm as well as luxurious life. It is neither abstract nor idealistic. It's simple teachings attracted all sections of people. Also the growing dominance of brahmans over kshatriyas and vyshyas made them turn towards buddhism and extend their patronage to it. Infact buddhism was very popular because it used the people's language, pali to spread their doctrines.
Vedic religion was confined to sanskrit speaking brahmans and never allowed other sections leading to discontent and hence the emergence of buddhism and jainism. It is worth noting that these religions were well organised and popular than vedic religion.
The decline of these religions particularly buddhism started during Guptan era during which Hinduism emerged as a major religion and never looked back.

by yogi Mon Jun 17, 2013 11:28 pm

Muezzin-Bar'chu wrote:It is a fascinating story - buddhist monks roamed around and almost always elevator pitched to the Kings. It was a top-down sale. My hypothesis is that illiteracy, massive collective fear of the elements, wild animals, spirits, demons etc kept the populace tied to theistic impulses. The Buddhist monks while they succeeded temporarily to convince the Kings and the elitist courtiers, faced a backlash first from the theistic elites who cleverly steered the illiterate masses to back them up - they fired on two cylinders - one, intellectual and the second, they relied on the superstitions, voodoo beliefs of the masses to support them. There is a certain comfort in 'stories' from mythology, moral parables dished out from under the trees and moonlit village squares when compared to the abstract and terrifying concept of nothingness in Buddhist core principles, which must have required enormous courage to accept.

I think the decline of buddhism can be broadly attributed to two reasons. One an external factor and other self-inflicting one.
The external factor was that of growing popularity of Hinduism which syncretised all beliefs and religions under it. eg: vasudeva identified with narayana, siva with rudra or bhairava. Interestingly even buddha was brought under the ten incarnations of vishnu.
OTOH growing schisms in buddhism didn't help it remain a popular religion.
Temple-centred bhakti also played a prominent role in increasing the popularity of hinduism.

by Kris Mon Jun 17, 2013 11:44 pm

Muezzin-Bar'chu wrote:It is a fascinating story - buddhist monks roamed around and almost always elevator pitched to the Kings. It was a top-down sale. My hypothesis is that illiteracy, massive collective fear of the elements, wild animals, spirits, demons etc kept the populace tied to theistic impulses. The Buddhist monks while they succeeded temporarily to convince the Kings and the elitist courtiers, faced a backlash first from the theistic elites who cleverly steered the illiterate masses to back them up - they fired on two cylinders - one, intellectual and the second, they relied on the superstitions, voodoo beliefs of the masses to support them. There is a certain comfort in 'stories' from mythology, moral parables dished out from under the trees and moonlit village squares when compared to the abstract and terrifying concept of nothingness in Buddhist core principles,.

>>>> Agree. Man needs magic, rather the possibility of magic and the hope that things will work out eventually. Logic doesn't get us there. In the end, that was Buddhism's competitive disadvantage.

by garam_kuta Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:34 am

Kris wrote:
Muezzin-Bar'chu wrote:It is a fascinating story - buddhist monks roamed around and almost always elevator pitched to the Kings. It was a top-down sale. My hypothesis is that illiteracy, massive collective fear of the elements, wild animals, spirits, demons etc kept the populace tied to theistic impulses. The Buddhist monks while they succeeded temporarily to convince the Kings and the elitist courtiers, faced a backlash first from the theistic elites who cleverly steered the illiterate masses to back them up - they fired on two cylinders - one, intellectual and the second, they relied on the superstitions, voodoo beliefs of the masses to support them. There is a certain comfort in 'stories' from mythology, moral parables dished out from under the trees and moonlit village squares when compared to the abstract and terrifying concept of nothingness in Buddhist core principles,.

>>>> Agree. Man needs magic, rather the possibility of magic and the hope that things will work out eventually. Logic doesn't get us there. In the end, that was Buddhism's competitive disadvantage.

agreed..fear of death and the suffering....
basically there are always 'problems' and one doesn't need/depend on a arbitrager/broker/pimp to solve those or to achieve one's ambitions - the latter sounds non-buddhish, though.

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