Closeness between Hindi and Urdu

by Seva Lamberdar Wed Jul 10, 2013 1:40 pm

(1) One of my maternal uncles, two months older than me, was studying in a Hindi medium school, like myself in another school. One day, out of the blue, he decided to learn Urdu also. He spent couple of weeks on his own (with help from a neighbor etc.) to get familiar with Urdu (modified / expanded Persian) script and started writing Hindi using the newly learnt script. Everyone thought he knew Urdu.

(2) I was once teaching engineering courses (in English) in a college in the MiddleEast. Most of the people in that place spoke Arabic, the local / national language. One day I saw an Arab boy (his parents were Egyptian Muslims) playing with kids from India and conversing with them in Hindi. When I asked him about his knowing the Hindi language in spite of being the child of Arabic speaking Egyptian parents, he replied "I study in a Pakistani school here and they teach us Urdu which is very similar to Hindi."

(3) When the Brits carried out a survey of languages spoken in India during the Raj (circa 1911), there was no mention of the name Urdu as a language in the final report. Moreover, the language spoken by people at that time in the north-western region of united India, comprising the present Pakistan and using supposedly the Urdu language. was indicated in the report simply as a dialect of Hindi.

(4) Munshi Premchand (1880-1936) is considered a great story and novel writer from India. Most of his writings (especially the stories) using the Devanagari and (modified) Persian scripts and matching word for word are available in Hindi and Urdu, respectively.

by indophile Wed Jul 10, 2013 1:55 pm

I heard that the Urdu primer (basic or first book) is called "Queida."
I was told "Queida" is an Arabic word meaning "basic," or "base," and that's where the name Al Queida came from.

by Hellsangel Wed Jul 10, 2013 1:58 pm

Is this Hindi?

by Guest Wed Jul 10, 2013 2:00 pm

Seva Lamberdar wrote:(4) Munshi Premchand (1880-1936) is considered a great story and novel writer from India. Most of his writings (especially the stories) using the Devanagari and (modified) Persian scripts and matching word for word are available in Hindi and Urdu, respectively.

dear komblete idiot,

there is a distinction between language and script. i can write hindi in several scripts. munshi premchand wrote his novels, in hindi, in urdu script because there was a greater readership of urdu script then. that does not mean that he wrote in urdu language.

by Guest Wed Jul 10, 2013 2:05 pm

Hellsangel wrote:

Is this Hindi?

what language is that? urdu? you cannot be serious! engine and diesel i understood btw but it does not help.

by Seva Lamberdar Wed Jul 10, 2013 2:06 pm

indophile wrote:I heard that the Urdu primer (basic or first book) is called "Queida."
I was told "Queida" is an Arabic word meaning "basic," or "base," and that's where the name Al Queida came from.

I don't know what you are trying to say?
If there is a word ("queida") in Urdu from Arabic, that is not enough to consider Urdu as Arabic; like the presence of the Hindi word "guru" in the English language does not make English as or a part of Hindi.

by Rishi Wed Jul 10, 2013 2:21 pm

Seva Lamberdar wrote:

(2) I was once teaching engineering courses (in English) in a college in the MiddleEast. .

So you went to Middle East and made a lot of money there.

Then why all the sob stories of being unemployed most of your life?

by Seva Lamberdar Wed Jul 10, 2013 2:23 pm

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:(4) Munshi Premchand (1880-1936) is considered a great story and novel writer from India. Most of his writings (especially the stories) using the Devanagari and (modified) Persian scripts and matching word for word are available in Hindi and Urdu, respectively.
dear komblete idiot,

there is a distinction between language and script. i can write hindi in several scripts. munshi premchand wrote his novels, in hindi, in urdu script because there was a greater readership of urdu script then. that does not mean that he wrote in urdu language.

Huzafa Kapasi, the name calling is not going to win you any argument.
Btw, is the Urdu language written using the Urdu script or not? And, are the stories / novels by Premchand using the Urdu scrpt considered as Urdu stories /novels or not?

by Seva Lamberdar Wed Jul 10, 2013 2:27 pm

Rishi wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:

(2) I was once teaching engineering courses (in English) in a college in the MiddleEast. .

So you went to Middle East and made a lot of money there.

Then why all the sob stories of being unemployed most of your life?

That country had a military and economic embargo from the West when I was there. The money paid in salary etc. to foreign workers (like myself) was mostly in local currency, which could not be sent outside and was just good to buy local items (food etc.).

by indophile Wed Jul 10, 2013 2:29 pm

Seva Lamberdar wrote:
indophile wrote:I heard that the Urdu primer (basic or first book) is called "Queida."
I was told "Queida" is an Arabic word meaning "basic," or "base," and that's where the name Al Queida came from.

I don't know what you are trying to say?
If there is a word ("queida") in Urdu from Arabic, that is not enough to consider Urdu as Arabic; like the presence of the Hindi word "guru" in the English language does not make English as or a part of Hindi.

All I was trying to say was that Urdu has more Arabic/Persian words and Hindi has more Sanskrit words. There may be some sounds in Urdu that cannot be written in Hindi, and there may be some Hindi sounds that cannot be written in Urdu. At the street level there may not be much difference, but at higher literary levels the languages may be very different.

by Seva Lamberdar Wed Jul 10, 2013 2:47 pm

indophile wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:
indophile wrote:I heard that the Urdu primer (basic or first book) is called "Queida."
I was told "Queida" is an Arabic word meaning "basic," or "base," and that's where the name Al Queida came from.

I don't know what you are trying to say?
If there is a word ("queida") in Urdu from Arabic, that is not enough to consider Urdu as Arabic; like the presence of the Hindi word "guru" in the English language does not make English as or a part of Hindi.

All I was trying to say was that Urdu has more Arabic/Persian words and Hindi has more Sanskrit words. There may be some sounds in Urdu that cannot be written in Hindi, and there may be some Hindi sounds that cannot be written in Urdu. At the street level there may not be much difference, but at higher literary levels the languages may be very different.

After the partition of India in 1947 as India and Pakistan, there has been a tendency, mainly in academic / literary circles in both India and Pakistan, to make their languages (Hindi and Urdu, respectively) more distinct from each other. Thus there seems to be a deliberate effort to add extra Arabic / Persian words to Urdu in Pakistan and more Sanskrit words to Hindi in India. While these superficial changes in Hindi and Urdu (the addition of extra words from Sanskrit and Arabic / Persian, respectively) might show up in the official and literary business, the common people (which you call at the street level) in both countries are generally not concerned about them.

by indophile Wed Jul 10, 2013 2:57 pm

I have no complaints about saturating Hindi with Sanskrit words. For example, when I was watching Mahabharat or Ramayan on TV, I could understand 99.9% of everything that's said by the characters. It sounded close to, say high level Telugu (which is also full of Sanskrit).
Also, the dialogues in Hindi movies these days are much more understandable than those of the older Dilip Kumar, Raj Kapoor movies. The songs were better in the old days, however.

by Seva Lamberdar Wed Jul 10, 2013 3:37 pm

indophile wrote:I have no complaints about saturating Hindi with Sanskrit words. For example, when I was watching Mahabharat or Ramayan on TV, I could understand 99.9% of everything that's said by the characters. It sounded close to, say high level Telugu (which is also full of Sanskrit).
Also, the dialogues in Hindi movies these days are much more understandable than those of the older Dilip Kumar, Raj Kapoor movies. The songs were better in the old days, however.

Actually, the emphasis to transform the language and make it more distinct is primarily Pakistani, basically to make Urdu appear very different from Hindi through the addition of extra Arabic / Persian words. The Indians most of the time on their part just react to what Pakistanis do, by adding more Sanskrit words to their own Hindi after the Pakistanis add Arabic/Persian words to Urdu.

Anyway, here is a song with English subtitles, 'nain lad jaye hain' by Rafi in Hindi spoken in Bihar region (I think) from an old Dilip Kumar movie 'Ganga Jamna',

by truthbetold Wed Jul 10, 2013 3:46 pm

Those who are complaining about Urdu words, use a.good dictionary on the web.

by Hellsangel Wed Jul 10, 2013 4:25 pm

Sevaji, are you saying that the common man in Pakistan can't follow the news broadcast I posted above?

by Seva Lamberdar Wed Jul 10, 2013 4:50 pm

Hellsangel wrote:Sevaji, are you saying that the common man in Pakistan can't follow the news broadcast I posted above?

HA, based on my contacts with numerous Pakistanis in North America and the MiddleEast, it seems there is quite a similarity in Urdu spoken by many Pakistanis and Hindi spoken by many Indians.

by Hellsangel Wed Jul 10, 2013 4:52 pm

Seva Lamberdar wrote:
Hellsangel wrote:Sevaji, are you saying that the common man in Pakistan can't follow the news broadcast I posted above?

HA, based on my contacts with numerous Pakistanis in North America and the MiddleEast, it seems there is quite a similarity in Urdu spoken by many Pakistanis and Hindi spoken by many Indians.

Can you follow most of the words they are using the news broadcast above?

by Seva Lamberdar Wed Jul 10, 2013 5:01 pm

Hellsangel wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:
Hellsangel wrote:Sevaji, are you saying that the common man in Pakistan can't follow the news broadcast I posted above?

HA, based on my contacts with numerous Pakistanis in North America and the MiddleEast, it seems there is quite a similarity in Urdu spoken by many Pakistanis and Hindi spoken by many Indians.

Can you follow most of the words they are using the news broadcast above?

None of the people from Pakistan I heard talking to me or others used the language / words in the above newscast, which indicates the normal conversing language (Urdu) among people in Pakistan is probably not as spiked up (with words from Persian and Arabic) as this newscast.

by Guest Wed Jul 10, 2013 6:46 pm

I am in complete agreement with Seva on this issue. From my personal experience: As a student in Canada i had pakistani friends. There was an indian student association and some of the pakistanis were actually members of the indian student association and would participate in cultural activities of the indian student association. The songs we would perform in musical performances would be hindi songs from old hindi movies. (There may have been one or two tamil or bengali songs but these were exceptions. This despite the fact that our main musician and one of the main male singers were both tamilians.) Talking to the Pakistanis was exactly like talking to other Indians. The reason for this is that colloquial urdu and colloquial hindi are the same languages; even Max--no great lover of hindi and urdu--agrees with this based on his own personal experiences.

by Guest Wed Jul 10, 2013 6:52 pm

Seva Lamberdar wrote:
indophile wrote:I have no complaints about saturating Hindi with Sanskrit words. For example, when I was watching Mahabharat or Ramayan on TV, I could understand 99.9% of everything that's said by the characters. It sounded close to, say high level Telugu (which is also full of Sanskrit).
Also, the dialogues in Hindi movies these days are much more understandable than those of the older Dilip Kumar, Raj Kapoor movies. The songs were better in the old days, however.

Actually, the emphasis to transform the language and make it more distinct is primarily Pakistani, basically to make Urdu appear very different from Hindi through the addition of extra Arabic / Persian words. The Indians most of the time on their part just react to what Pakistanis do, by adding more Sanskrit words to their own Hindi after the Pakistanis add Arabic/Persian words to Urdu.

Anyway, here is a song with English subtitles, 'nain lad jaye hain' by Rafi in Hindi spoken in Bihar region (I think) from an old Dilip Kumar movie 'Ganga Jamna',

Indians are equally to blame for trying to replace commonly occurring words in hindi which are of persian origin with esoteric words of sanskrit origin. This is typically done by pseudo-intellectual hindi language fanatics. These people are enemies of hindi in my opinion. Meanwhile, here is something interesting:

Some of the Urdu writers like Mir and Nazir have written beautiful poems on Holi, Diwali, Raakhi and other Hindu festivals and customs, which shows that Urdu was not the language of any particular religion. A large number of Hindus have made their names in the front ranks of Urdu literature e.g. Firaq, Chakbast, Ratan Lal Sarshar, etc. In Vali’s poetry the words Ganga, Jamuna, Krishna, Ram, Saraswati, Sita, Lakshmi, etc. appear frequently.

Urdu poetry represents the diversity yet unity of India. Many people and communities migrated into India and all got assimilated here. As Firaq writes :

“Sarzameene hind per aqvaam-e-aalam ke firaq
kaafile guzarte gaye hindustan banta gaya”

i.e. “In the land of Hind , the caravans of the peoples of the world kept coming in, and India kept getting formed”.

The greatest damage to Urdu was done by the Partition of India in 1947. Since then Urdu was branded in India as a foreign language, as a language of Muslims alone, so much so that even Muslims stopped studying Urdu to show their `patriotism’ and solidarity with their Hindu brethren. After 1947 Persian words which were in common usage were systematically sought to be replaced by Sanskrit words which were not in common use. For example in a case which I was hearing in the Allahabad High Court an application entitled “Pratibhu aavedan patra” was moved before me. I asked the learned counsel what is the meaning of this word “pratibhu”. He said it meant a bail application. I told him he should have used the words `bail’ or `zamanat’ which all understand instead of the word `pratibhu ’ which no one understands, not even Khariboli speakers. On another occasion when I was on a morning walk I saw a board on which were written the words “Pravanan Kendra. I could not understand the meaning, and I looked further up where in English it was written `Selection Centre’. In my opinion the words used in Hindi should have been `Bharti Daftar’ or `Rozgar Daftar’ instead of “Pravanan Kendra ” which nobody understands.

This policy of hatefully removing Persian words which were in common use in Khariboli and replacing them by Sanskrit words which are not in common use resulted in creating an unnecessarily Sanskritized Hindi which the common man often finds it difficult to understand. In our Courts of law it is often difficult to understand the Hindi used in Government Notifications. Also this policy of hatred for Persian words resulted in almost genocide for Urdu.

However, despite all hostile efforts the language which speaks the voice of the heart can never be stamped out as long as people have hearts. The evidence that Urdu lives in the hearts of Indians even today can be seen from the surprisingly large crowds which `mushairas’ attract, from all sections of society and in all parts of the country, north, west, south and east. If Urdu is a foreign language it is very surprising that the people of India love it so much.

http://www.kgfindia.com/great-injustice.php

by Guest Wed Jul 10, 2013 11:46 pm

Seva Lamberdar wrote:
Huzafa Kapasi, the name calling is not going to win you any argument.
Btw, is the Urdu language written using the Urdu script or not? And, are the stories / novels by Premchand using the Urdu scrpt considered as Urdu stories /novels or not?

he wrote in both languages, hindi and urdu. the words are classified separately. his urdu novels are considered to be urdu works. his hindi novels in urdu script are considered hindi works.

by Guest Thu Jul 11, 2013 12:35 am

Seva Lamberdar wrote:
Btw, is the Urdu language written using the Urdu script or not?

i really do not know sevaji. this sounds like a philosophical question.

by Guest Thu Jul 11, 2013 2:46 am

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:
Huzafa Kapasi, the name calling is not going to win you any argument.
Btw, is the Urdu language written using the Urdu script or not? And, are the stories / novels by Premchand using the Urdu scrpt considered as Urdu stories /novels or not?
he wrote in both languages, hindi and urdu. the ~~words~~ works are classified separately. his urdu novels are considered to be urdu works. his hindi novels in urdu script are considered hindi works.

btw, premchand was prescribed reading for us in school. i have read his short stories and novels. there was no hint of urdu in his "hindi" literature.

by Kris Thu Jul 11, 2013 2:59 am

Hellsangel wrote:

Is this Hindi?

>>>Yeah, heavy Persian, even the accent, at least to an untrained ear. Being a Sunni country, I thought they would have gone the Arabic route.

by Idéfix Thu Jul 11, 2013 3:14 am

Kris wrote:>>>Yeah, heavy Persian, even the accent, at least to an untrained ear. Being a Sunni country, I thought they would have gone the Arabic route.

Historically Farsi had a greater influence on Urdu than Arabic because of the Mughal adoption of Farsi as the official language of their empire. Great Urdu poets like Ghalib, Mir, Iqbal, and Faiz all composed poetry in Farsi as well, but I don't think any of them wrote in Arabic.

by Kris Thu Jul 11, 2013 3:20 am

Idéfix wrote:
Kris wrote:>>>Yeah, heavy Persian, even the accent, at least to an untrained ear. Being a Sunni country, I thought they would have gone the Arabic route.
Historically Farsi had a greater influence on Urdu than Arabic because of the Mughal adoption of Farsi as the official language of their empire. Great Urdu poets like Ghalib, Mir, Iqbal, and Faiz all composed poetry in Farsi as well, but I don't think any of them wrote in Arabic.

>>> I meant in the context of where Pakistan is headed today, with the Islamization and the strong shia/sunni bad blood. I think Naipaul points out to even the adoption of arab headgear among some of the die-hards to emphasize the arab connection.

by Idéfix Thu Jul 11, 2013 3:25 am

Kris wrote:
Idéfix wrote:
Kris wrote:>>>Yeah, heavy Persian, even the accent, at least to an untrained ear. Being a Sunni country, I thought they would have gone the Arabic route.
Historically Farsi had a greater influence on Urdu than Arabic because of the Mughal adoption of Farsi as the official language of their empire. Great Urdu poets like Ghalib, Mir, Iqbal, and Faiz all composed poetry in Farsi as well, but I don't think any of them wrote in Arabic.
>>> I meant in the context of where Pakistan is headed today, with the Islamization and the strong shia/sunni bad blood. I think Naipaul points out to even the adoption of arab headgear among some of the die-hards to emphasize the arab connection.

Yeah, there is a movement afoot to change "khuda-hafiz" to "allah-hafiz" because khuda is Persian not Arabic -- never mind that the Arabs don't say allah-hafiz. I guess the Persian infusion into Urdu started off earlier, perhaps soon after independence, when the Saudi-Wahabi petrodollars hadn't yet made their way to Pakistan to buy the Arabs cultural clout.

by Seva Lamberdar Thu Jul 11, 2013 7:18 am

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:
Huzefa Kapasi wrote:
Seva Lamberdar wrote:
Huzafa Kapasi, the name calling is not going to win you any argument.
Btw, is the Urdu language written using the Urdu script or not? And, are the stories / novels by Premchand using the Urdu scrpt considered as Urdu stories /novels or not?
he wrote in both languages, hindi and urdu. the ~~words~~ works are classified separately. his urdu novels are considered to be urdu works. his hindi novels in urdu script are considered hindi works.
btw, premchand was prescribed reading for us in school. i have read his short stories and novels. there was no hint of urdu in his "hindi" literature.

Since you don't know the Urdu script, ask someone (knowing Urdu) to read a Premchand's Urdu story to you. You probably will see no difference in it from its Hindi version (by Premchand).

by MaxEntropy_Man Thu Jul 11, 2013 7:25 am

until i started getting clued into the persian origin words i couldn't tell the difference between hindi and urdu. if pakistanis speak to me in what they call urdu, i can nearly always get the gist of what they're saying. if an individual like myself for whom hindi is only a third language can understand urdu, i think they are one and the same language.

by Guest Thu Jul 11, 2013 7:39 am

Seva Lamberdar wrote:
Since you don't know the Urdu script, ask someone (knowing Urdu) to read a Premchand's Urdu story to you. You probably will see no difference in it from its Hindi version (by Premchand).

dear kombolete idiot, there is no need for that. here are the books written by premchand in hindi and urdu:

Asrar-e-Ma'abid (Urdu)
Devasthan Rahasya (Hindi)

Prema (Hindi)
Hamkhurma-o-Ham Sawab (Urdu)

Vardaan (Hindi)
Jalwa-e-Isar (Urdu)

Seva Sadan (Hindi)
Bazaar-e-Husn (Urdu)

Premashram (Hindi)
Gosha-e-Afiyat (Urdu)

Rangbhoomi (Hindi)
Chaugan-e-Hasti (Urdu)

Kaayakalp (Hindi)
Parda-i-Majaz (Urdu)

Pratigya (Hindi)
Bewa (Urdu)

Karmabhoomi (Hindi)
Maidan-e-Amal (Urdu)

as you can see, i find no difference in their hindi titles and their urdu titles.

by Seva Lamberdar Thu Jul 11, 2013 7:54 am

"as you can see, i find no difference in their hindi titles and their urdu titles." HK

>>> Instead of arguing about the Hindi titles and their Persianized equivalents for Premchand's stories (in Hindi and Urdu, respectively),ask someone to read you a Premchand's Urdu story ... its Hindi version and the Urdu version, even with differently sounding titles (in Hindi and as Persianized), are almost identical.

by Guest Thu Jul 11, 2013 8:22 am

premchand published his works in two versions: hindi and urdu. now you want me to read both versions and announce, "hey, this premchand was a kombolete idiot. both books are the in the same language! i want my money back!"

hadd hai sevaji!

by Captain Bhankas Thu Jul 11, 2013 8:26 am

roflllll

by Guest Thu Jul 11, 2013 8:32 am

I have a feeling hk is interested in this topic just so that he could say, 'kombolete idiot', over and over. Razz

by Jebediah Mburuburu Thu Jul 11, 2013 9:04 am

Vidya Bagchi wrote:I have a feeling hk is interested in this topic just so that he could say, 'kombolete idiot', over and over.

hk is viTty. he learnt viTt from uppusaamy gowNDer.

by truthbetold Thu Jul 11, 2013 10:40 am

Hk,
seva can be difficult in discussions. but on these thread you are calling him names without much basis. The thrust of your argument seems to be seva the person. it will help discussion if you direct your attention to the content of the post.

by Seva Lamberdar Thu Jul 11, 2013 3:03 pm

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:premchand published his works in two versions: hindi and urdu. now you want me to read both versions and announce, "hey, this premchand was a kombolete idiot. both books are the in the same language! i want my money back!"

hadd hai sevaji!

Okay, here is easier task than translating / reading the entire story.

There is famous story 'Kafan' (Shroud) by Premchand. Its Hiindi version on the Internet is available at http://premchand.kahaani.org/2010/12/kafan.html and the Urdu version at http://urduadab4u.blogspot.ca/2011/01/coffin-beautiful-urdu-short-story-by.html

Read the second and third one-line paragraphs in Hindi version yourself and ask someone else to read the corresponding (second and third one-liners) in Urdu version. What differences are there, if any, in the contents of these one-liners in Hindi and Urdu other than one is written using the devanagari script and other using Urdu (modified Persian) script?

by Seva Lamberdar Thu Jul 11, 2013 3:14 pm

Vidya Bagchi wrote:I have a feeling hk is interested in this topic just so that he could say, 'kombolete idiot', over and over.

LOL.
Even though HK can't read Urdu (he never did anyway) and took Hindi in school as a second language only (probably in a English / Convent school), he is arguing about the differences in Hindi and Urdu with a person who studied Hindi for first ten years (from grade 1 to 10) as the first language in Hindi medium Public school and at one time could read and write Urdu (now I am just out of touch with the Urdu script).

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