Hindi/Urdu

truthbetold wrote:Urdu evolved from the milatary contonments of Muslim invaders. Turks who dominated the Muslim world at that provided many of the words. Persian and Arabic also contributed significantly. Hindi being local language supplied few words.
Hindustani is not sanskritized hindi.

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:i thought sanskrit and persian met each other or came from the same root language long before either one made its appearance in india.

truthbetold wrote:http://m.youtube.com/?#/watch?v=DaeiwBG_DbE
enjoy the song for its beauty.  Then check how many words can be found in shudh hindi?

Rashmun wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:i thought sanskrit and persian met each other or came from the same root language long before either one made its appearance in india.

Thanks for reminding me about this.

Seva Lamberdar wrote:

Rashmun wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:i thought sanskrit and persian met each other or came from the same root language long before either one made its appearance in india.

Thanks for reminding me about this.

Here is more to remind you in the following.

(1) Muslims in India think that their ancestors came from the MiddleEast even when most of them descended from the local population,  either through conversions in the last few centuries or having only one lone ancestor long ago (a Muslim soldier perhaps from Persia etc. many centuries earlier) and the rest of the family lineage involving mainly the local population;  and

(2) Urdu, only until recently (a century or so ago), was considered mostly as the script (for writing Hindi using the Persian / Farsi language) and not as a language itself.

Btw, did you ever take a course at the college level in Hindi or English literature (history of literature)?

Rashmun wrote:

Seva Lamberdar wrote:

Rashmun wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:i thought sanskrit and persian met each other or came from the same root language long before either one made its appearance in india.

Thanks for reminding me about this.

Here is more to remind you in the following.

(1) Muslims in India think that their ancestors came from the MiddleEast even when most of them descended from the local population,  either through conversions in the last few centuries or having only one lone ancestor long ago (a Muslim soldier perhaps from Persia etc. many centuries earlier) and the rest of the family lineage involving mainly the local population;  and

(2) Urdu, only until recently (a century or so ago), was considered mostly as the script (for writing Hindi using the Persian / Farsi language) and not as a language itself.

Btw, did you ever take a course at the college level in Hindi or English literature (history of literature)?

i studied hindi uptill class 12. i sometimes regret doing so now. studying it till class 10 would probably have sufficed. on the other hand, one good thing that came out of studying hindi uptill class 12 was that i could later on read Sharad Chandra's novels (Srikanta, Charitraheen, and Devdas were the ones that i read) in hindi translation. i also read the most famous biography of Sharad Chandra by Vishnu Prabhakar ('Aawara Masiha' which has been translated into english as 'The Great Vagabond'); Prabhakar spent 10 or 12 years doing research on this book and writing it up and he became famous among hindi readers and writers (i am not sure about how well received he was by the bengalis) by writing this book. It is a fascinating book because Sharad Chandra led a fascinating life. Sharad Chandra of course was very well received by hindi speakers even though he was writing in bengali.

Srikanta was so good that i also read it in english translation but it is more magical in the hindi translation probably because it is easier to translate from bengali into hindi than into english since bengali and hindi are linguistically more similar and hence u are really reading the story closer to what the original story is like if u read it in hindi translation than english translation. had i only studied hindi uptill class 10 it may have been more difficult to read lengthy hindi literature.

i took three english courses as electives during my college. one was on english language (essays, etc.). one was on modern english literature. and the third was on victorian novels. i have fond memories of the modern english literature course in particular because my teacher was about the best teacher i have ever had anywhere. she instilled confidence in me and i participated a lot in her class in the class discussions. there was some rivalry between me and a girl in the class who also liked to participate a lot. we would have different viewpoints on certain short stories we had studied, like for instance in analyzing a character in the story. we studied many peculiar short stories in this course including 'the metamorphosis' of kafka and 'the garden of forking paths' of borges. we had to prepare for the class by reading the story before going to the class so that in the class itself we would spend all the time discussing different aspects of the story. our teacher would prepare the discussion points as questions and circulate these questions among us. then ask us to form groups of four students to discuss our answers to the questions and then one of the four would speak for the group to the whole class after a discussion within the group. that class was great fun. i regret that i could not take another class by the same teacher. she also retired 1-2 years after teaching me.

i recall, once in the modern english course the teacher asked the class: what do u feel (what is your emotional response) when u think of a 'cathedral'? there is a nice big cathedral near where i used to live in India at one point of time and so i could identify with the feeling. i raised my hand. she immediately asked me what my answer was and i said 'a mix of beauty and reverence'. and she said 'reverence. now that is a beautiful word.'


--
what about you? did you take any hindi or english (or some other language) courses in college? what were the elective courses u took when u did your Masters in hawaii? any special memories?

Seva Lamberdar wrote:

Rashmun wrote:

Seva Lamberdar wrote:

Rashmun wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:i thought sanskrit and persian met each other or came from the same root language long before either one made its appearance in india.

Thanks for reminding me about this.

Here is more to remind you in the following.

(1) Muslims in India think that their ancestors came from the MiddleEast even when most of them descended from the local population,  either through conversions in the last few centuries or having only one lone ancestor long ago (a Muslim soldier perhaps from Persia etc. many centuries earlier) and the rest of the family lineage involving mainly the local population;  and

(2) Urdu, only until recently (a century or so ago), was considered mostly as the script (for writing Hindi using the Persian / Farsi language) and not as a language itself.

Btw, did you ever take a course at the college level in Hindi or English literature (history of literature)?

i studied hindi uptill class 12. i sometimes regret doing so now. studying it till class 10 would probably have sufficed. on the other hand, one good thing that came out of studying hindi uptill class 12 was that i could later on read Sharad Chandra's novels (Srikanta, Charitraheen, and Devdas were the ones that i read) in hindi translation. i also read the most famous biography of Sharad Chandra by Vishnu Prabhakar ('Aawara Masiha' which has been translated into english as 'The Great Vagabond'); Prabhakar spent 10 or 12 years doing research on this book and writing it up and he became famous among hindi readers and writers (i am not sure about how well received he was by the bengalis) by writing this book. It is a fascinating book because Sharad Chandra led a fascinating life. Sharad Chandra of course was very well received by hindi speakers even though he was writing in bengali.

Srikanta was so good that i also read it in english translation but it is more magical in the hindi translation probably because it is easier to translate from bengali into hindi than into english since bengali and hindi are linguistically more similar and hence u are really reading the story closer to what the original story is like if u read it in hindi translation than english translation. had i only studied hindi uptill class 10 it may have been more difficult to read lengthy hindi literature.

i took three english courses as electives during my college. one was on english language (essays, etc.). one was on modern english literature. and the third was on victorian novels. i have fond memories of the modern english literature course in particular because my teacher was about the best teacher i have ever had anywhere. she instilled confidence in me and i participated a lot in her class in the class discussions. there was some rivalry between me and a girl in the class who also liked to participate a lot. we would have different viewpoints on certain short stories we had studied, like for instance in analyzing a character in the story. we studied many peculiar short stories in this course including 'the metamorphosis' of kafka and 'the garden of forking paths' of borges. we had to prepare for the class by reading the story before going to the class so that in the class itself we would spend all the time discussing different aspects of the story. our teacher would prepare the discussion points as questions and circulate these questions among us. then ask us to form groups of four students to discuss our answers to the questions and then one of the four would speak for the group to the whole class after a discussion within the group. that class was great fun. i regret that i could not take another class by the same teacher. she also retired 1-2 years after teaching me.

i recall, once in the modern english course the teacher asked the class: what do u feel (what is your emotional response) when u think of a 'cathedral'? there is a nice big cathedral near where i used to live in India at one point of time and so i could identify with the feeling. i raised my hand. she immediately asked me what my answer was and i said 'a mix of beauty and reverence'. and she said 'reverence. now that is a beautiful word.'


--
what about you? did you take any hindi or english (or some other language) courses in college? what were the elective courses u took when u did your Masters in hawaii? any special memories?

The description above indicates that you did not study the history of Hindi or English literature and that is quite clear from your posts. Most of the info. about Hindi literature you seem to have was based on by reading a few novels / poems in that language or by reading the silly posts on the subject on the Internet by people who also seem to have no real understanding and knowledge about the Hindi literature. That's why all this confusion on your part about Urdu (orginating in India after the arrival of Muslims a few centuries ago) as being precursor or having the contemporary roots as Hindi!

Btw, yes , I had the separate courses in the Hindi literature.

Rashmun wrote:

Seva Lamberdar wrote:
The description above indicates that you did not study the history of Hindi or English literature and that is quite clear from your posts. Most of the info. about Hindi literature you seem to have was based on by reading a few novels / poems in that language or by reading the silly posts on the subject on the Internet by people who also seem to have no real understanding and knowledge about the Hindi literature. That's why all this confusion on your part about Urdu (orginating in India after the arrival of Muslims a few centuries ago) as being precursor or having the contemporary roots as Hindi!

Btw, yes , I had the separate courses in the Hindi literature.

it is true that i did not study the history of hindi and english literature formally. (your question was whether i studied these subjects in college.) however, i have done so on my own--to some extent-- through my own reading and through discussions with people more knowledgeable than me. in the case of the history of english literature my knowledge about this subject was gained by reading the story of civilization series by will durant.
my own understanding is that it is not me but you who is confused about urdu. to remove your serious misconceptions and misunderstandings about urdu i would recommend a book that is available online:

http://www.columbia.edu/itc/mealac/pritchett/00urduhindilinks/tarachand/tarachand.html

Seva Lamberdar wrote:

Rashmun wrote:

Seva Lamberdar wrote:
The description above indicates that you did not study the history of Hindi or English literature and that is quite clear from your posts. Most of the info. about Hindi literature you seem to have was based on by reading a few novels / poems in that language or by reading the silly posts on the subject on the Internet by people who also seem to have no real understanding and knowledge about the Hindi literature. That's why all this confusion on your part about Urdu (orginating in India after the arrival of Muslims a few centuries ago) as being precursor or having the contemporary roots as Hindi!

Btw, yes , I had the separate courses in the Hindi literature.

it is true that i did not study the history of hindi and english literature formally. (your question was whether i studied these subjects in college.) however, i have done so on my own--to some extent-- through my own reading and through discussions with people more knowledgeable than me. in the case of the history of english literature my knowledge about this subject was gained by reading the story of civilization series by will durant.
my own understanding is that it is not me but you who is confused about urdu. to remove your serious misconceptions and misunderstandings about urdu i would recommend a book that is available online:

http://www.columbia.edu/itc/mealac/pritchett/00urduhindilinks/tarachand/tarachand.html

If this author says that Urdu was the precursor or had contemporary roots as Hindi, he first needs to take a course in the history of Hindi literature before writing the book.

Rashmun wrote:The Hindi zealots introduced highly Sanskritised Hindi, which went over the heads of average people. Lots of jokes used to be prevalent. What is the Hindi word for 'Handkerchief'? Reply: Mikha marzana vastrakhand. What is the equivalent of a 'Necktie'? Reply: Kantha Langot. What is the word for 'Rail Signal'? Reply: Agni vahana gamana agamana suchak loh patika. This was not the language Gandhi and Nehru had in mind. But who would listen? AIR became the touchstone for Hindi words. Thanks to Hindi Film Industry, they had to sell their pictures to people in the street. So they stuck to bazari language. For instance 'Shadi shuda' is a wholly Persian/Urdu word for a married person. In today's Hindi, nobody uses the correct Hindi word Vivahit. Similarly other words like Guftagu (Dialogue/Conversation), Hubahu (Identical), Rubaru (Face to face). These are all Persian and thereby Urdu words. But then any language is enriched by borrowings from other languages. English is replete with words borrowed from Greek and Latin. Some French words are used in their original form viz: Debris, Buffet, A la carte etc. In fact Algebra, Alcohal are Arabic words.

Seva Lamberdar wrote:

Rashmun wrote:The Hindi zealots introduced highly Sanskritised Hindi, which went over the heads of average people. Lots of jokes used to be prevalent. What is the Hindi word for 'Handkerchief'? Reply: Mikha marzana vastrakhand. What is the equivalent of a 'Necktie'? Reply: Kantha Langot. What is the word for 'Rail Signal'? Reply: Agni vahana gamana agamana suchak loh patika. This was not the language Gandhi and Nehru had in mind. But who would listen? AIR became the touchstone for Hindi words. Thanks to Hindi Film Industry, they had to sell their pictures to people in the street. So they stuck to bazari language. For instance 'Shadi shuda' is a wholly Persian/Urdu word for a married person. In today's Hindi, nobody uses the correct Hindi word Vivahit. Similarly other words like Guftagu (Dialogue/Conversation), Hubahu (Identical), Rubaru (Face to face). These are all Persian and thereby Urdu words. But then any language is enriched by borrowings from other languages. English is replete with words borrowed from Greek and Latin. Some French words are used in their original form viz: Debris, Buffet, A la carte etc. In fact Algebra, Alcohal are Arabic words.

As for many Persian / Farsi words to be similar to words in Hindi (from Sanskrit), that is because Farsi / Persian has many words from the ancient local language Avestan (in Persia / Iran), and Avestan itself had considerable influence originally from Sanskrit.

Do you know that the 4-letter English word "f&&k", which you use probably frequently in your conversations and which signifies your favorite pastime, is rooted in Sanskrit (meaning thrusting with force)?

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

Seva Lamberdar wrote:

Rashmun wrote:The Hindi zealots introduced highly Sanskritised Hindi, which went over the heads of average people. Lots of jokes used to be prevalent. What is the Hindi word for 'Handkerchief'? Reply: Mikha marzana vastrakhand. What is the equivalent of a 'Necktie'? Reply: Kantha Langot. What is the word for 'Rail Signal'? Reply: Agni vahana gamana agamana suchak loh patika. This was not the language Gandhi and Nehru had in mind. But who would listen? AIR became the touchstone for Hindi words. Thanks to Hindi Film Industry, they had to sell their pictures to people in the street. So they stuck to bazari language. For instance 'Shadi shuda' is a wholly Persian/Urdu word for a married person. In today's Hindi, nobody uses the correct Hindi word Vivahit. Similarly other words like Guftagu (Dialogue/Conversation), Hubahu (Identical), Rubaru (Face to face). These are all Persian and thereby Urdu words. But then any language is enriched by borrowings from other languages. English is replete with words borrowed from Greek and Latin. Some French words are used in their original form viz: Debris, Buffet, A la carte etc. In fact Algebra, Alcohal are Arabic words.

As for many Persian / Farsi words to be similar to words in Hindi (from Sanskrit), that is because Farsi / Persian has many words from the ancient local language Avestan (in Persia / Iran), and Avestan itself had considerable influence originally from Sanskrit.

Do you know that the 4-letter English word "f&&k", which you use probably frequently in your conversations and which signifies your favorite pastime, is rooted in Sanskrit (meaning thrusting with force)?

there is no linguistic basis to assert that. what there is a basis for from my own readings is that sanskrit and avestan are sister languages that have the same parent.