Talking points

by goodcitizn Mon Jul 29, 2013 6:11 pm

Hellsangel wrote:

I really like his honesty and introspection. Most blacks in their celebrity status as actors, politicians or media personalities lack the courage to speak out on these 5 points. 72% of black kids born out of wedlock is a revealing number. A high percentage of these families is on welfare. Living in Chicago I know which areas to avoid because of gang violence. Unfortunately the police don't want to go there either.

by pravalika nanda Mon Jul 29, 2013 6:53 pm

I would've just liked some news. It's very offensive for him to talk down to other Blacks like that on public TV.

by bw Mon Jul 29, 2013 7:11 pm

that was quite an irresponsible talk - he can't talk about this without into account the history, socio-economic factors and the psychological scars they bear. centuries of oppression and being ostracized cannot be overcome just like that.

it is illuminating to see how much hatred existed even in a place like boston, the so called cradle of all things liberal.

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Mon Jul 29, 2013 7:27 pm

bw wrote:that was quite an irresponsible talk - he can't talk about this without into account the history, socio-economic factors and the psychological scars they bear. centuries of oppression and being ostracized cannot be overcome just like that.

Dear Lady BW: The blacks that have 20 kids with 19 mothers and those living off of food stamps hardly know about history, ancestry, socio-economic analysis, blah blah and more blah. If it is free, then I want it.. If you have it then it is only fair you give some to me....(I have a relative in our family with that midset).

it is illuminating to see how much hatred existed even in a place like boston, the so called cradle of all things liberal.

DL BW: Of course of course...I stated it all and predicted all that has to be predicted. remember that racism is in everyone - it is just a question of how deep it is buried. Even Ted Kennedy dropped his guard and revealed his racist views.

by pravalika nanda Mon Jul 29, 2013 7:36 pm

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:
bw wrote:that was quite an irresponsible talk - he can't talk about this without into account the history, socio-economic factors and the psychological scars they bear. centuries of oppression and being ostracized cannot be overcome just like that.

Dear Lady BW: The blacks that have 20 kids with 19 mothers and those living off of food stamps hardly know about history, ancestry, socio-economic analysis, blah blah and more blah. If it is free, then I want it.. If you have it then it is only fair you give some to me....(I have a relative in our family with that midset).

it is illuminating to see how much hatred existed even in a place like boston, the so called cradle of all things liberal.

DL BW: Of course of course...I stated it all and predicted all that has to be predicted. remember that racism is in everyone - it is just a question of how deep it is buried. Even Ted Kennedy dropped his guard and revealed his racist views.

speak for yourself, uppili, not everyone is racist. even if one is not racist there are other things that separate us like class (amongst educated people classism is a bigger problem and possibly the root of casteism), religion and values.

by Idéfix Mon Jul 29, 2013 7:59 pm

bw wrote:that was quite an irresponsible talk - he can't talk about this without into account the history, socio-economic factors and the psychological scars they bear. centuries of oppression and being ostracized cannot be overcome just like that.

it is illuminating to see how much hatred existed even in a place like boston, the so called cradle of all things liberal.

I understand more than most people of my background the history, socioeconomic and psychological factors that cause this situation. But the way out of this sorry situation for an individual comes from seeing another individual from the same oppressed/ostracized group who has found his way out, and learning from him/her to overcome it oneself. Otherwise, all those historical, socioeconomic, and psychological analyses risk turning into list of excuses justifying the current sorry state of affairs.

Racial hatred existed in almost every society for almost all of human history. I am reading a book called The Mismeasure of Man by Stephen Jay Gould. It is an old book that talks about how biological science has been used to justify racism in the past. Scientists used to construct theories those at the bottom of the socioeconomic ladder are there because of biological reasons; that those at the top are more intelligent and therefore deserving of their high position on the ladder. Some of the quotes in the book from scientists are shocking. These are not from fringe scientists like today's creationists, either. These are statements by the best-known people of their times, people who had large sociopolitical influence, thanks to their views that helped society feel very good about its oppression of ethnic minorities and women. The quote in my signature is from one of the few scientists who rejected their notions. Compared to those prominent scientists, we have come a long way in understanding the causes of social problems in this country and in this age. For all that progress, however, from an individual's perspective change can only come through candid conversations like the one Don Lemon started.

by bw Mon Jul 29, 2013 8:53 pm

Idéfix wrote:
bw wrote:that was quite an irresponsible talk - he can't talk about this without into account the history, socio-economic factors and the psychological scars they bear. centuries of oppression and being ostracized cannot be overcome just like that.

it is illuminating to see how much hatred existed even in a place like boston, the so called cradle of all things liberal.
I understand more than most people of my background the history, socioeconomic and psychological factors that cause this situation. But the way out of this sorry situation for an individual comes from seeing another individual from the same oppressed/ostracized group who has found his way out, and learning from him/her to overcome it oneself. Otherwise, all those historical, socioeconomic, and psychological analyses risk turning into list of excuses justifying the current sorry state of affairs.

Racial hatred existed in almost every society for almost all of human history. I am reading a book called The Mismeasure of Man by Stephen Jay Gould. It is an old book that talks about how biological science has been used to justify racism in the past. Scientists used to construct theories those at the bottom of the socioeconomic ladder are there because of biological reasons; that those at the top are more intelligent and therefore deserving of their high position on the ladder. Some of the quotes in the book from scientists are shocking. These are not from fringe scientists like today's creationists, either. These are statements by the best-known people of their times, people who had large sociopolitical influence, thanks to their views that helped society feel very good about its oppression of ethnic minorities and women. The quote in my signature is from one of the few scientists who rejected their notions. Compared to those prominent scientists, we have come a long way in understanding the causes of social problems in this country and in this age. For all that progress, however, from an individual's perspective change can only come through candid conversations like the one Don Lemon started.

my problem is that he does not address the root cause at all but instead looks at the effects and provides a simple 5 point solution. what has fashion got to do with anything!?

i will check out the book you mentioned.

"guns, germs and steel" also addresses the issue of why some civilizations forged ahead and some got left behind.

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Mon Jul 29, 2013 9:23 pm

pravalika nanda wrote:

DL BW: Of course of course...I stated it all and predicted all that has to be predicted. remember that racism is in everyone - it is just a question of how deep it is buried. Even Ted Kennedy dropped his guard and revealed his racist views.

[/quote]
speak for yourself, uppili, not everyone is racist. even if one is not racist there are other things that separate us like class (amongst educated people classism is a bigger problem and possibly the root of casteism), religion and values.[/quote]

Sorry everyone is - at some level and regarding something or other. You differentiate and like people of certain color - dont you?...

by Hellsangel Mon Jul 29, 2013 10:42 pm

No one commented on Bill Cosby's speech in another post. Let me post it again here:

by Hellsangel Mon Jul 29, 2013 10:44 pm

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:
Sorry everyone is - at some level and regarding something or other. You differentiate and like people of certain color - dont you?...

I like my automobiles in red color. So, your Holiness, does that make me a racist?

by goodcitizn Mon Jul 29, 2013 11:00 pm

bw wrote:that was quite an irresponsible talk - he can't talk about this without into account the history, socio-economic factors and the psychological scars they bear. centuries of oppression and being ostracized cannot be overcome just like that.

it is illuminating to see how much hatred existed even in a place like boston, the so called cradle of all things liberal.

Why is it irresponsible? He is one of a handful of people who is placing the sorry state of blacks -- particularly the violence of blacks on blacks, high dropout rates in high school, highest % of children born out of wedlock etc -- squarely on them. Almost all blacks in talk shows and other media outlets point to their history, blaming the white man for all their ills. It is no longer the white man who is causing them to get into gangs, traffic in drugs, be irresponsible parents, drop out of schools and clog the prison system. In fact, the black community before the 70's didn't have nearly as many of these problems as it has today.

If you listen to Bill Cosby or Oprah, you'll find them focusing on solutions to the black community in being responsible citizens, not indulging in the blame game. Not a week goes by when there isn't news about shootings and deaths on Chicago streets due to gang violence. This problem has escalated greatly over the last two decades. I am not sure what the moratorium is on milking the blame cow.

by Hellsangel Mon Jul 29, 2013 11:05 pm

Idéfix wrote:
I understand more than most people of my background the history, socioeconomic and psychological factors that cause this situation.

On what basis do you qualify yourself so?

by Idéfix Mon Jul 29, 2013 11:13 pm

Hellsangel wrote:
Idéfix wrote:
I understand more than most people of my background the history, socioeconomic and psychological factors that cause this situation.
On what basis do you qualify yourself so?

Conversations with people of my background here and in the real world. There is a remarkable lack of awareness among Indians in America of the history of slavery, Jim Crow, and racism in the north. Most Indians who emigrate to the big coastal cities here think the America they see now is the America that was 50 years ago. They don't know about segregation in schools and public facilities just 50 years ago, and the history of the struggle for civil and voting rights.

by goodcitizn Tue Jul 30, 2013 12:00 am

Idéfix wrote:
I understand more than most people of my background the history, socioeconomic and psychological factors that cause this situation. But the way out of this sorry situation for an individual comes from seeing another individual from the same oppressed/ostracized group who has found his way out, and learning from him/her to overcome it oneself. Otherwise, all those historical, socioeconomic, and psychological analyses risk turning into list of excuses justifying the current sorry state of affairs.

Racial hatred existed in almost every society for almost all of human history. I am reading a book called The Mismeasure of Man by Stephen Jay Gould. It is an old book that talks about how biological science has been used to justify racism in the past. Scientists used to construct theories those at the bottom of the socioeconomic ladder are there because of biological reasons; that those at the top are more intelligent and therefore deserving of their high position on the ladder. Some of the quotes in the book from scientists are shocking. These are not from fringe scientists like today's creationists, either. These are statements by the best-known people of their times, people who had large sociopolitical influence, thanks to their views that helped society feel very good about its oppression of ethnic minorities and women. The quote in my signature is from one of the few scientists who rejected their notions. Compared to those prominent scientists, we have come a long way in understanding the causes of social problems in this country and in this age. For all that progress, however, from an individual's perspective change can only come through candid conversations like the one Don Lemon started.

One of my favorite books is "Biko" written by Donald Woods which later became a film called Cry Freedom. It is a biographical story on Stephen Biko who was murdered by South African policemen after being tortured in custody for his anti-apartheid lectures and stance. Thanks to Donald Woods, his journalist friend, his death became publicized worldwide and brought attention to the struggle of the blacks. The remarkable thing about Steve Biko was his belief in black empowerment who coined the phrase "black is beautiful". You probably have read the book. There is an entire section that discussed his views on black consciousness involving physical and psychological liberation. Your response reminded me of the book.

by bw Tue Jul 30, 2013 12:44 am

goodcitizn wrote:
bw wrote:that was quite an irresponsible talk - he can't talk about this without into account the history, socio-economic factors and the psychological scars they bear. centuries of oppression and being ostracized cannot be overcome just like that.

it is illuminating to see how much hatred existed even in a place like boston, the so called cradle of all things liberal.
Why is it irresponsible? He is one of a handful of people who is placing the sorry state of blacks -- particularly the violence of blacks on blacks, high dropout rates in high school, highest % of children born out of wedlock etc -- squarely on them. Almost all blacks in talk shows and other media outlets point to their history, blaming the white man for all their ills. It is no longer the white man who is causing them to get into gangs, traffic in drugs, be irresponsible parents, drop out of schools and clog the prison system. In fact, the black community before the 70's didn't have nearly as many of these problems as it has today.

If you listen to Bill Cosby or Oprah, you'll find them focusing on solutions to the black community in being responsible citizens, not indulging in the blame game. Not a week goes by when there isn't news about shootings and deaths on Chicago streets due to gang violence. This problem has escalated greatly over the last two decades. I am not sure what the moratorium is on milking the blame cow.

culture does not form overnight and is the result of what one has been subjected to for decades/centuries. by not even mentioning that and squarely blaming the blacks for their own downfall, i think he is being very dishonest. simple 5 point solutions do not erase where they are coming from. it is just to distract people from the key issue of what led to a segment of people being second class citizens or worse.

i just finished 14 hours of "eyes on the prize" ( i had watched only the first 6 episodes back when i was a grad student) and it is quite shocking how much bias existed even in the 70s/80s.

by Idéfix Tue Jul 30, 2013 12:46 am

I haven't read the book, but I have watched the film Cry, Freedom. I found it to be a profoundly moving film. I am going to look up the book now.

by Idéfix Tue Jul 30, 2013 12:47 am

bw wrote:
goodcitizn wrote:
bw wrote:that was quite an irresponsible talk - he can't talk about this without into account the history, socio-economic factors and the psychological scars they bear. centuries of oppression and being ostracized cannot be overcome just like that.

it is illuminating to see how much hatred existed even in a place like boston, the so called cradle of all things liberal.
Why is it irresponsible? He is one of a handful of people who is placing the sorry state of blacks -- particularly the violence of blacks on blacks, high dropout rates in high school, highest % of children born out of wedlock etc -- squarely on them. Almost all blacks in talk shows and other media outlets point to their history, blaming the white man for all their ills. It is no longer the white man who is causing them to get into gangs, traffic in drugs, be irresponsible parents, drop out of schools and clog the prison system. In fact, the black community before the 70's didn't have nearly as many of these problems as it has today.

If you listen to Bill Cosby or Oprah, you'll find them focusing on solutions to the black community in being responsible citizens, not indulging in the blame game. Not a week goes by when there isn't news about shootings and deaths on Chicago streets due to gang violence. This problem has escalated greatly over the last two decades. I am not sure what the moratorium is on milking the blame cow.

culture does not form overnight and is the result of what one has been subjected to for decades/centuries. by not even mentioning that and squarely blaming the blacks for their own downfall, i think he is being very dishonest. simple 5 point solutions do not erase where they are coming from. it is just to distract people from the key issue of what led to a segment of people being second class citizens or worse.

i just finished 14 hours of "eyes on the prize" ( i had watched only the first 6 episodes back when i was a grad student) and it is quite shocking how much bias existed even in the 70s/80s.

There are more than 6 episodes? Where did you find the rest? I ordered by set from PBS, and it had three DVDs with two episodes on each.

by Idéfix Tue Jul 30, 2013 12:51 am

bw wrote:by not even mentioning that and squarely blaming the blacks for their own downfall, i think he is being very dishonest. simple 5 point solutions do not erase where they are coming from. it is just to distract people from the key issue of what led to a segment of people being second class citizens or worse.

I think the context of a black American addressing other black Americans brings with it a lot of the historical context of slavery, Jim Crow, and racism without those having to be pointed out. I don't think Lemon leaving them out in his remarks suggests to his intended audience that all those horrible things did not happen, and that they are solely responsible for their current plight. The way I heard his comments was that given all the bad things that happened, what are some things that individuals can do that will help them improve their plight. When I see it in that light, I don't really see the five-point plan as offensive or irresponsible.

by bw Tue Jul 30, 2013 12:57 am

Idéfix wrote:
bw wrote:
goodcitizn wrote:
bw wrote:that was quite an irresponsible talk - he can't talk about this without into account the history, socio-economic factors and the psychological scars they bear. centuries of oppression and being ostracized cannot be overcome just like that.

it is illuminating to see how much hatred existed even in a place like boston, the so called cradle of all things liberal.
Why is it irresponsible? He is one of a handful of people who is placing the sorry state of blacks -- particularly the violence of blacks on blacks, high dropout rates in high school, highest % of children born out of wedlock etc -- squarely on them. Almost all blacks in talk shows and other media outlets point to their history, blaming the white man for all their ills. It is no longer the white man who is causing them to get into gangs, traffic in drugs, be irresponsible parents, drop out of schools and clog the prison system. In fact, the black community before the 70's didn't have nearly as many of these problems as it has today.

If you listen to Bill Cosby or Oprah, you'll find them focusing on solutions to the black community in being responsible citizens, not indulging in the blame game. Not a week goes by when there isn't news about shootings and deaths on Chicago streets due to gang violence. This problem has escalated greatly over the last two decades. I am not sure what the moratorium is on milking the blame cow.

culture does not form overnight and is the result of what one has been subjected to for decades/centuries. by not even mentioning that and squarely blaming the blacks for their own downfall, i think he is being very dishonest. simple 5 point solutions do not erase where they are coming from. it is just to distract people from the key issue of what led to a segment of people being second class citizens or worse.

i just finished 14 hours of "eyes on the prize" ( i had watched only the first 6 episodes back when i was a grad student) and it is quite shocking how much bias existed even in the 70s/80s.
There are more than 6 episodes? Where did you find the rest? I ordered by set from PBS, and it had three DVDs with two episodes on each.

i got it from a library - there are two parts to it. there is also a very good study guide that comes with it. the second part was made in 1990 and the original sometime in the 80s.

Eyes on the Prize: America's Civil Rights Years 1954–1964
Eyes on the Prize II: America at the Racial Crossroads 1965–1985

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eyes_on_the_Prize

it is a must watch for all americans for sure.

by Kris Tue Jul 30, 2013 1:14 am

bw wrote:
goodcitizn wrote:
bw wrote:that was quite an irresponsible talk - he can't talk about this without into account the history, socio-economic factors and the psychological scars they bear. centuries of oppression and being ostracized cannot be overcome just like that.

it is illuminating to see how much hatred existed even in a place like boston, the so called cradle of all things liberal.
Why is it irresponsible? He is one of a handful of people who is placing the sorry state of blacks -- particularly the violence of blacks on blacks, high dropout rates in high school, highest % of children born out of wedlock etc -- squarely on them. Almost all blacks in talk shows and other media outlets point to their history, blaming the white man for all their ills. It is no longer the white man who is causing them to get into gangs, traffic in drugs, be irresponsible parents, drop out of schools and clog the prison system. In fact, the black community before the 70's didn't have nearly as many of these problems as it has today.

If you listen to Bill Cosby or Oprah, you'll find them focusing on solutions to the black community in being responsible citizens, not indulging in the blame game. Not a week goes by when there isn't news about shootings and deaths on Chicago streets due to gang violence. This problem has escalated greatly over the last two decades. I am not sure what the moratorium is on milking the blame cow.

culture does not form overnight and is the result of what one has been subjected to for decades/centuries. by not even mentioning that and squarely blaming the blacks for their own downfall, i think he is being very dishonest. simple 5 point solutions do not erase where they are coming from. it is just to distract people from the key issue of what led to a segment of people being second class citizens or worse.

i just finished 14 hours of "eyes on the prize" ( i had watched only the first 6 episodes back when i was a grad student) and it is quite shocking how much bias existed even in the 70s/80s.

>>>> I agree with you on the evolution of culture, but the problem is the original causes are known and cannot be undone. Solutions like 'affirmative action' are proving to be band- aid measures at best. I guess what people like Cosby are saying is that the community needs to move on by arresting the downward spiral it finds itself in. Not having children out of wedlock and staying in school and learning to communicate well would be a good start in reversing the process. It may take time and significant effort, but anything has to be better than the current malaise.

by goodcitizn Tue Jul 30, 2013 2:08 am

bw wrote:
goodcitizn wrote:
bw wrote:that was quite an irresponsible talk - he can't talk about this without into account the history, socio-economic factors and the psychological scars they bear. centuries of oppression and being ostracized cannot be overcome just like that.

it is illuminating to see how much hatred existed even in a place like boston, the so called cradle of all things liberal.
Why is it irresponsible? He is one of a handful of people who is placing the sorry state of blacks -- particularly the violence of blacks on blacks, high dropout rates in high school, highest % of children born out of wedlock etc -- squarely on them. Almost all blacks in talk shows and other media outlets point to their history, blaming the white man for all their ills. It is no longer the white man who is causing them to get into gangs, traffic in drugs, be irresponsible parents, drop out of schools and clog the prison system. In fact, the black community before the 70's didn't have nearly as many of these problems as it has today.

If you listen to Bill Cosby or Oprah, you'll find them focusing on solutions to the black community in being responsible citizens, not indulging in the blame game. Not a week goes by when there isn't news about shootings and deaths on Chicago streets due to gang violence. This problem has escalated greatly over the last two decades. I am not sure what the moratorium is on milking the blame cow.

culture does not form overnight and is the result of what one has been subjected to for decades/centuries. by not even mentioning that and squarely blaming the blacks for their own downfall, i think he is being very dishonest. simple 5 point solutions do not erase where they are coming from. it is just to distract people from the key issue of what led to a segment of people being second class citizens or worse.

i just finished 14 hours of "eyes on the prize" ( i had watched only the first 6 episodes back when i was a grad student) and it is quite shocking how much bias existed even in the 70s/80s.

I don't think that not mentioning the plight of blacks for centuries in his comments means he is being dishonest. He is one of the more level-headed guys I've noticed on CNN. In the context of improving the standards within the black community he is talking about the 5 points. Like any self-respecting black he is offended by the N word used by blacks themselves. I give him credit for not being an apologist.

Yes, the bias exists even today. It's worse in southern states and small towns.

by Idéfix Tue Jul 30, 2013 2:22 am

bw wrote:i got it from a library - there are two parts to it. there is also a very good study guide that comes with it. the second part was made in 1990 and the original sometime in the 80s.

Eyes on the Prize: America's Civil Rights Years 1954–1964
Eyes on the Prize II: America at the Racial Crossroads 1965–1985

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eyes_on_the_Prize

it is a must watch for all americans for sure.

Thanks. Was the second season in DVD or VHS at your library? PBS website only shows me the first season on DVD, which I already own. They don't list the second season on DVD. I don't have a VHS player, so need the DVD version of the second season.

by bw Tue Jul 30, 2013 2:31 am

Idéfix wrote:
bw wrote:i got it from a library - there are two parts to it. there is also a very good study guide that comes with it. the second part was made in 1990 and the original sometime in the 80s.

Eyes on the Prize: America's Civil Rights Years 1954–1964
Eyes on the Prize II: America at the Racial Crossroads 1965–1985

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eyes_on_the_Prize

it is a must watch for all americans for sure.
Thanks. Was the second season in DVD or VHS at your library? PBS website only shows me the first season on DVD, which I already own. They don't list the second season on DVD. I don't have a VHS player, so need the DVD version of the second season.

it is a PBS DVD box set. I clicked a picture for you.

Talking points Eyeson10

by pravalika nanda Tue Jul 30, 2013 2:50 am

Idéfix wrote:
bw wrote:by not even mentioning that and squarely blaming the blacks for their own downfall, i think he is being very dishonest. simple 5 point solutions do not erase where they are coming from. it is just to distract people from the key issue of what led to a segment of people being second class citizens or worse.
I think the context of a black American addressing other black Americans brings with it a lot of the historical context of slavery, Jim Crow, and racism without those having to be pointed out. I don't think Lemon leaving them out in his remarks suggests to his intended audience that all those horrible things did not happen, and that they are solely responsible for their current plight. The way I heard his comments was that given all the bad things that happened, what are some things that individuals can do that will help them improve their plight. When I see it in that light, I don't really see the five-point plan as offensive or irresponsible.

as i see it African American have been going to school and colleges only for the last 50yrs or so after brown vs board of ed. given that short period of time i think they're doing well for themselves. esp black women are doing well. i think we just need to give them more time to sort things out and take full advantage of affirmative action. there were segregated schools before that but to me those don't count.

i think the reason behind the poor family structure is that these people were just pulled out from various parts of Africa and thrown together in ships, they spoke different languages or dialects and were put together in a new country to work. i think with that background you can get the day's work done and try to look out for each other in basic ways, but to have family one needs culture, shared stories, religion, mythologies, going back several hundred years, so they don't have that.

this guy, lemon, just got lucky in life and he has no business talking to the less fortunate like that. further, he's awfully white...someone in harlem is going to do away with him, i wouldn't go around telling people where i lived.

i think blacks and the very poor are the only people who should get aff action, no one else deserves it.

by Propagandhi711 Tue Jul 30, 2013 10:48 am

how dare he criticize blacks? they have atleast another 400 yrs worth of race cards to play

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