Growth of cities in Andhra Pradesh: analysis of census data

At the outset, I would like to acknowledge the contribution of my Seemandhra brothers and sisters in the development of this analysis. Without their selfless and altruistic statements over the last few days belittling the role of Telangana in the development of Hyderabad, I would not have bothered to spend the last half hour looking up these numbers and analyzing them. Particular thanks are due to Kinnera and my guruvu-gaaru. 

Over the last few days, I have said Hyderabad was the largest Telugu city in 1955. What I did not know then was the size gap between Hyderabad and other Telugu cities at the time. The chart below shows the population of Hyderabad, compared to the next five largest cities in Andhra Pradesh today, and its two closest comparable peers: Bangalore and Chennai. These numbers are from several sources which I shall list at the end of this post; they all in turn quote the 1951 census of India. 


Take a look at those numbers. Hyderabad was six times the size of Vijayawada, the next largest Telugu city. It was between the size of Chennai and Bangalore back then, before the formation of Andhra Pradesh. I have color-coded the chart as follows: Telangana cities in red, coastal Andhra in green, Rayalaseema in blue, and other states in grey. 

Now, let us see what happened over the next sixty years. Here is a chart with the population of the same cities as of 2011. 


See how things changed? Visakhapatnam is no longer one-tenth of Hyderabad's size; it is more than a fifth of its size now! Warangal was 80% of the size of Vijayawada, and larger than Visakha, then. Now Warangal is half the size of Vijayawada, and about 40% of Visakha's size now. Clearly, the largest coastal Andhra cities have grown faster than their Telangana peers. Also note that Bangalore has passed Hyderabad by a large margin, when it was less than 80% of Hyderabad's size in 1951.

The chart below shows the compounded annual growth rates (CAGRs) of each city over this sixty-year period. 


As you can see, Vijayawada and Visakhapatnam grew faster than Hyderabad. Bangalore also grew faster than Hyderabad. Visakhapatnam grew faster than that ultimate poster-child of India's economic growth, Bangalore. 

If you prefer seeing the original values and changes since all together on one chart, here it is: 


As you can see, the cumulative growth of Visakhapatnam was more than twice that of Hyderabad. Large public investments, like the shipyard, steel plant, played a part in this growth, just like large public investments like BHEL, IDPL, etc. did in Hyderabad. 

So, there you have it. It is not true that Hyderabad was developed preferentially over Visakhapatnam and Vijayawada in Andhra Pradesh. It is also not true that Hyderabad's growth was exceptional among its peers. Bangalore grew even faster than Hyderabad. Visakhapatnam's growth easily outpaced that of Hyderabad and Bangalore. It is the unfortunate reality of Seemandhra that it did not have any major cities in 1955; Telangana is not responsible for that situation. The leaders of Seemandhra therefore agreed to designate Hyderabad the capital. People from Seemandhra invested in the city, created jobs there, and SA leaders brought public sector enterprises to Hyderabad. All these contributions of Seemandhra deserve acknowledgement. But Seemandhra people need to acknowledge that Hyderabad was India's fifth largest city before they came in, and that the people of Telangana (and Marathwada and Hyderabad-Karnataka) contributed to building the city before them. 

Sources:
1. Chennai Metropolitan Development Authority, http://www.cmdachennai.gov.in/Volume3_English_PDF/Vol3_Chapter03_Demography.pdf, Page 49
2. Indian Institute of Science, Center for Ecological Sciences, Demography and Economy of Bangalore, http://www.ces.iisc.ernet.in/energy/water/paper/bangalore/economy.htm
3. K Narayan Reddy, Urban Redevelopment: A study of high-rise buildings, http://books.google.com/books?id=FcZQvnvkbfcC&pg=PA38&lpg=PA38&dq=population+of+hyderabad+in+1951&source=bl&ots=cFFhvcnA27&sig=ldBiCEfbYOPBQqvyk5WNFy5WK5g&hl=en&sa=X&ei=UcYBUvGQC4byyAHemoGIBw&ved=0CEoQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=population%20of%20hyderabad%20in%201951&f=false, Page 38
4. K Ranga Reddy and MSA Rao, Cities and Slums: A study of squatters' settlements in the city of Vijayawada, http://books.google.com/books?id=ptUhA9t3f4QC&pg=PA12&lpg=PA12&dq=population+of+vijayawada+in+1951&source=bl&ots=MpFcVVDMge&sig=cdKbwliU, Page 12
5. V Ramakrishna Reddy, Economic History of Hyderabad State: Warangal Suba (1901-1950), http://books.google.com/books?id=f0mh6W7ejL4C&pg=PA621&lpg=PA621&dq=warangal+city+population+1951&source=bl&ots=RpPiN, Page 612
6. Wikipedia page on Visakhapatnam, Historical Population table, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visakhapatnam
7. Kurnool Municipal Corporation, Brief Note on Town-Planning Activities, http://ourkmc.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Brief-Note-on-T.P.-Section-Activities.pdf, Page 1
8. S Vijaya Kumar, Challenges before the Elderly: An Indian Scenario, http://books.google.com/books?id=0VXEOUj3FRkC&pg=PA152&lpg=PA152&dq=population+of+tirupati+in+1951&source=bl&ots=2, Page 152
8. Government of Andhra Pradesh, Census of Andhra Pradesh, 2011, http://www.ap.gov.in/Other%20Docs/Population.pdf, Table 1.13

I forgot to add this: the growth rate of the two largest Rayalaseema cities also exceeded the growth rates of both Hyderabad and Warangal.

My mother's village probably would outpace Tirupati & Bangalore on these charts
Bangalore was slightly behind Hyderabad till the '80s and took off since, also A.P became center's stepchild in the '80s when TDP was in the office. Better comparison would be Chennai which was Madras state's capital. Look what Thamizhans did to the good old Madras!

Brilliant quantitative argument. CONwallhas would love to include you in their MOE to bail out Khurshid.

You should look at the villages of Rangareddi surrounding Hyderabad, Nalgonda, Siddipet, Karimnagar, Medak, Mehboobnagar, Miryalaguda, Chautuppal, Nizamabad, etc. and compare them with comparable size villages and towns in SA (in population gorwth, infrastructure development, educational institutions, central institutes, etc.) and see what has happened to them. That will be a true index of how, in general, development has taken place in the different regions.

Also, you should look at how much of the contribution in Hyderabad, Visakhapatnam, Vijayawada, etc., for example, is by people from Telangana and SA. You can even extend this to towns in T and SA. This will tell who is moving around to invest and contribute to the economy of areas in the other regions.

If you claim that Kinnera and I are not being clear on facts, that is another selective Telangano-philic attitude of yours.

Let me reiterate my point - an author of any data can't claim exclusive right to analyze and shove his conclusions on colleagues. Others will objectively look at the DATA and make their own conclusions. Telangano-philics may talk as much as they want. The rest of the people will eventually figure out what the reality is.

Idefix,
Why you include Chennai in Andhra cities (the 3rd figure)?

Kayalvizhi wrote:Idefix,
Why you include Chennai in Andhra cities (the 3rd figure)?

 Hey Kayar,

You should read the history of Chennai before farting through the rear end.

confuzzled dude wrote:My mother's village probably would outpace Tirupati & Bangalore on these charts
Bangalore was slightly behind Hyderabad till the '80s and took off since, also A.P became center's stepchild in the '80s when TDP was in the office. Better comparison would be Chennai which was Madras state's capital. Look what Thamizhans did to the good old Madras!

If your mother's village is a typical village in Andhra Pradesh, no, it will not outpace Tirupati or Bangalore. The reason is that rural population growth is significantly lower than urban population growth, with the migration of rural people to cities, and the urbanization of Andhra Pradesh. Between 1951 and 2011, the population of Andhra Pradesh grew at a CAGR of 1.7%. As you can see, the largest cities grew at almost twice that rate on average. That means the villages did not grow even at 1.7%.

Yes, Bangalore grew faster and Chennai slower; Hyderabad's growth is middle-of-the-pack when compared to its peers.

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:You should look at the villages of Rangareddi surrounding Hyderabad, Nalgonda, Siddipet, Karimnagar, Medak, Mehboobnagar, Miryalaguda, Chautuppal, Nizamabad, etc. and compare them with comparable size villages and towns in SA (in population gorwth, infrastructure development, educational institutions, central institutes, etc.) and see what has happened to them. That will be a true index of how, in general, development has taken place in the different regions.

The analysis I have done already accounts for their villages on the outskirts of cities; both Hyderabad and Visakhapatnam gobbled up those villages into GHMC and GVMC.

If you would like to share any data that you have on other factors, please feel free to share it with us and prove me wrong.

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:Also, you should look at how much of the contribution in Hyderabad, Visakhapatnam, Vijayawada, etc., for example, is by people from Telangana and SA. You can even extend this to towns in T and SA. This will tell who is moving around to invest and contribute to the economy of areas in the other regions.

I already acknowledged the contribution of SA people in magnanimously coming to Hyderabad and investing there with no concern for returns. I am just pointing out that even before the SA people came, Hyderabad was #5 in India; it is still is. The people of Telangana built it up as the #5 city. The people of SA helped them keep up with the growth of other cities in the country.

Kayalvizhi wrote:Idefix,
Why you include Chennai in Andhra cities (the 3rd figure)?

For two reasons: the primary reason is because Chennai serves as a good comparable peer for Hyderabad, just like Bangalore. The secondary reason is because SA people had a claim over Chennai (IMO a stronger claim than they have on Hyderabad). So when comparing Telangana cities against SA cities as of 1951, it made sense to include Chennai.

>>> : the primary reason is because Chennai serves as a good comparable peer for Hyderabad, just like Bangalore.

That does not mean you can call them Andhra cities. Say comparison with Aouth Asian Cities.

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:If you claim that Kinnera and I are not being clear on facts, that is another selective Telangano-philic attitude of yours.

Yes, you and Kinnera are falsifying history with the narrative that the people of Telangana played a marginal role in the development of Hyderabad. It is a fact that the people of Telangana built the city into the fifth-largest city in India before the people of Seemandhra started moving there.

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:Let me reiterate my point - an author of any data can't claim exclusive right to analyze and shove his conclusions on colleagues. Others will objectively look at the DATA and make their own conclusions. Telangano-philics may talk as much as they want. The rest of the people will eventually figure out what the reality is.

Yes, I certainly hope so. BTW, I am the only Telangana person talking about this, and unlike you and Kinnera, I am presenting facts that you can verify, not my pet theories disguised as such.

Kayalvizhi wrote:>>> : the primary reason is because Chennai serves as a good comparable peer for Hyderabad, just like Bangalore.

That does not mean you can call them Andhra cities. Say comparison with Aouth Asian Cities.

I believe my explanation in the first post already addresses this: I have color-coded the chart as follows: Telangana cities in red, coastal Andhra in green, Rayalaseema in blue, and other states in grey.

If someone wants to verify the 1951 numbers for Seemandhra cities, but does not want to go through all the individual sources I have given for each, you can find the Census of India 1951 report for Madras and Coorg states at the link below. Table A-IV, starting on page 18, has 1951 population numbers for all cities in the old Madras state.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&ved=0CDoQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2F203.200.22.249%3A8080%2Fjspui%2Fbitstream%2F123456789%2F3739%2F1%2FCensus_of_India_1951_volume_III_Madras_and_coorg_part_II-A_Tables.pdf&ei=omoCUviFGOWM2QX21IC4Ag&usg=AFQjCNFao6nls9DIGH5hyBAWG9BFGoa_JA&sig2=tv25HfIA4_DxIm0HGSxeHQ&bvm=bv.50310824,d.b2I

Looks like on your pet topic of your city, you are beginning to get as verbose as Rashmun on his pet topics.

Hellsangel wrote:Looks like on your pet topic of your city, you are beginning to get as verbose as Rashmun on his pet topics.

Yes, mea culpa. My pet topic is a city I grew up in. And I am posting hard-to-find data and my analysis of it, instead of copy-pasting the views of assorted judges.

Idéfix wrote:

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:You should look at the villages of Rangareddi surrounding Hyderabad, Nalgonda, Siddipet, Karimnagar, Medak, Mehboobnagar, Miryalaguda, Chautuppal, Nizamabad, etc. and compare them with comparable size villages and towns in SA (in population gorwth, infrastructure development, educational institutions, central institutes, etc.) and see what has happened to them. That will be a true index of how, in general, development has taken place in the different regions.

The analysis I have done already accounts for their villages on the outskirts of cities; both Hyderabad and Visakhapatnam gobbled up those villages into GHMC and GVMC.

If you would like to share any data that you have on other factors, please feel free to share it with us and prove me wrong.

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:Also, you should look at how much of the contribution in Hyderabad, Visakhapatnam, Vijayawada, etc., for example, is by people from Telangana and SA. You can even extend this to towns in T and SA. This will tell who is moving around to invest and contribute to the economy of areas in the other regions.

I already acknowledged the contribution of SA people in magnanimously coming to Hyderabad and investing there with no concern for returns. I am just pointing out that even before the SA people came, Hyderabad was #5 in India; it is still is. The people of Telangana built it up as the #5 city. The people of SA helped them keep up with the growth of other cities in the country.

Brilliant! I never pretended to be fond of Telangana. I am from SA and my views reflect that. I don't pretend to be balanced when it comes to T and SA. I also never claimed that Hyderabad was like Chennapatnam before development took place. It was a city before the ars of Nizam was kicked by Patel. After all, the guy built Hyderabd and his own enormous personal wealth on the backs of the poor. Gajuwaka, Seethammadhara, etc., are nothing compared to villages in Rangareddi. Again, compare how many Telanganites contributed to the development of the villages in Rangareddi and those around Vizag.

You skipped the towns and who in T and SA contributed to their growth (not just in population but in various aspects).

Am I missing something here? Growth according to you=just the growth in population? Well then, according to the graphs shown, the % population growth hasn't changed much in Hyderabad. That debunks the Telanganites' accusation that the Seemandhrites have flocked into their city and looting them. 

Got to appreciate the Bangalorites though. The city has seen huge influx of outsiders, but it still seems to be doing fine. Ppl who are moving in feel very welcome there.  
The population growth hasn't been much in Chennai because not many non-tamilians are moving in, i guess. Why? 'language problem in Chennai'. There's no such problem in B'lore hence the difference probably. 

I think a better analysis to prove/counter the allegations that Telanganites are making against the Seemandhrites is to get the number of Seemandhrites living in Hyderabad and around. Even the ones born and brought up in Hyd, but with origins in the seemandhra region need to be counted. Someone like me or CM Kiran Kumar Reddy. Then take stock of how much income they are generating. 
Also, what are the major investments in the city (hospitals, pharmaceuticals, IT companies, restaurants, shopping malls, colleges, film industry, other businesses etc)? What's their value and who owns them? What's the value of investments from Seemandhrites and what's it from T'ites and who is contributing more to the city in terms of revenue and of course, development. 

Whatever it is, I don't have much time or energy to participate in these threads. I am leaving for Hyd on Sunday (a family tragedy). So i'm a lil busy now. Will be gone for a month. 

anyway, good luck!

Idéfix wrote:

Kayalvizhi wrote:Idefix,
Why you include Chennai in Andhra cities (the 3rd figure)?

For two reasons: the primary reason is because Chennai serves as a good comparable peer for Hyderabad, just like Bangalore. The secondary reason is because SA people had a claim over Chennai (IMO a stronger claim than they have on Hyderabad). So when comparing Telangana cities against SA cities as of 1951, it made sense to include Chennai.

Madras did not include the suburbs or absorb them. hence the population remains the same. But the city itself has grown to some 50 kms in every direction and plans are underway to merge many nearby municipalities into Madras - which will then swallo Hyderabad, Bangalore all combined....

Idéfix wrote:
Yes, you and Kinnera are falsifying history with the narrative that the people of Telangana played a marginal role in the development of Hyderabad. It is a fact that the people of Telangana built the city into the fifth-largest city in India before the people of Seemandhra started moving there.

That's a bit disingenuous,  Whole Hyderbad state contributed to to the development of Hyderbad city, present day telangana region constituted about 50% of  Hyderabad state, remaining regions now fall under K & M states.

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:

Idéfix wrote:

Kayalvizhi wrote:Idefix,
Why you include Chennai in Andhra cities (the 3rd figure)?

For two reasons: the primary reason is because Chennai serves as a good comparable peer for Hyderabad, just like Bangalore. The secondary reason is because SA people had a claim over Chennai (IMO a stronger claim than they have on Hyderabad). So when comparing Telangana cities against SA cities as of 1951, it made sense to include Chennai.

Madras did not include the suburbs or absorb them. hence the population remains the same. But the city itself has grown to some 50 kms in every direction and plans are underway to merge many nearby municipalities into Madras - which will then swallo Hyderabad, Bangalore all combined....

No no no.. the real reason is Telugus who were robbed off of Chennai turned their focus on developing Hyderabad & Bangalore. Now you know why those two cities have grown bigger in the last 60 years (dwindling telugu population in Chennai)

confuzzled dude wrote:

Idéfix wrote:
Yes, you and Kinnera are falsifying history with the narrative that the people of Telangana played a marginal role in the development of Hyderabad. It is a fact that the people of Telangana built the city into the fifth-largest city in India before the people of Seemandhra started moving there.

That's a bit disingenuous,  Whole Hyderbad state contributed to to the development of Hyderbad city, present day telangana region constituted about 50% of  Hyderabad state, remaining regions now fall under K & M states.

Yes, I mentioned that in my first post in this thread: Marathwada and Hyderabad-Karnataka also contributed when they were part of Hyderabad state.

kinnera wrote:I am leaving for Hyd on Sunday (a family tragedy). So i'm a lil busy now. Will be gone for a month. 

anyway, good luck!

Sorry to hear about the family tragedy And good luck to you as well.

kinnera wrote:Am I missing something here? Growth according to you=just the growth in population? Well then, according to the graphs shown, the % population growth hasn't changed much in Hyderabad. That debunks the Telanganites' accusation that the Seemandhrites have flocked into their city and looting them. 

Got to appreciate the Bangalorites though. The city has seen huge influx of outsiders, but it still seems to be doing fine. Ppl who are moving in feel very welcome there.  
The population growth hasn't been much in Chennai because not many non-tamilians are moving in, i guess. Why? 'language problem in Chennai'. There's no such problem in B'lore hence the difference probably. 

I think a better analysis to prove/counter the allegations that Telanganites are making against the Seemandhrites is to get the number of Seemandhrites living in Hyderabad and around. Even the ones born and brought up in Hyd, but with origins in the seemandhra region need to be counted. Someone like me or CM Kiran Kumar Reddy. Then take stock of how much income they are generating. 
Also, what are the major investments in the city (hospitals, pharmaceuticals, IT companies, restaurants, shopping malls, colleges, film industry, other businesses etc)? What's their value and who owns them? What's the value of investments from Seemandhrites and what's it from T'ites and who is contributing more to the city in terms of revenue and of course, development. 

Whatever it is, I don't have much time or energy to participate in these threads. I am leaving for Hyd on Sunday (a family tragedy). So i'm a lil busy now. Will be gone for a month. 

anyway, good luck!

Sorry re. family in Hyd. Have nice trip to Hyd. When there, don't argue with T-fanatics.

kinnera wrote:Am I missing something here? Growth according to you=just the growth in population? Well then, according to the graphs shown, the % population growth hasn't changed much in Hyderabad. That debunks the Telanganites' accusation that the Seemandhrites have flocked into their city and looting them.

I have never accused that Seemandhra people have "flocked into our city and looted us." So that debunking is of a strawman. 

kinnera wrote:Got to appreciate the Bangalorites though. The city has seen huge influx of outsiders, but it still seems to be doing fine. Ppl who are moving in feel very welcome there.

That is by and large true, but there are strong resentments of outsiders in Bangalore that bubble up from time to time, as they do in Hyderabad.
 

kinnera wrote:I think a better analysis to prove/counter the allegations that Telanganites are making against the Seemandhrites is

I look forward to seeing these analyses from you or from any other Seemandhra person who wants to prove/counter those allegations.

kinnera wrote:Also, what are the major investments in the city (hospitals, pharmaceuticals, IT companies, restaurants, shopping malls, colleges, film industry, other businesses etc)? What's their value and who owns them?

Whoever owns private property in Hyderabad continues to own them after bifurcation, regardless of where in India they are originally from.

Idéfix wrote:

confuzzled dude wrote:My mother's village probably would outpace Tirupati & Bangalore on these charts
Bangalore was slightly behind Hyderabad till the '80s and took off since, also A.P became center's stepchild in the '80s when TDP was in the office. Better comparison would be Chennai which was Madras state's capital. Look what Thamizhans did to the good old Madras!

If your mother's village is a typical village in Andhra Pradesh, no, it will not outpace Tirupati or Bangalore. The reason is that rural population growth is significantly lower than urban population growth, with the migration of rural people to cities, and the urbanization of Andhra Pradesh. Between 1951 and 2011, the population of Andhra Pradesh grew at a CAGR of 1.7%. As you can see, the largest cities grew at almost twice that rate on average. That means the villages did not grow even at 1.7%.

Yes, Bangalore grew faster and Chennai slower; Hyderabad's growth is middle-of-the-pack when compared to its peers.

If you take look at district wise decadal variation in population between 1961 and 2011, they are pretty much uniform in both regions. For example, you can compare West Godavari, Guntur and Krishna with Nizamabad, Karimnagar and Mahabubnagar districts.

Thanks Ide and vakavaka :-)

Idéfix wrote:

Hellsangel wrote:Looks like on your pet topic of your city, you are beginning to get as verbose as Rashmun on his pet topics.

Yes, mea culpa. My pet topic is a city I grew up in. And I am posting hard-to-find data and my analysis of it, instead of copy-pasting the views of assorted judges.

At least this did shut Rashmun up, no Moghul, Nizam or language war threads these days, I know some SuChers might prefer those over SA & T topics.

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:It was a city before the ars of Nizam was kicked by Patel. After all, the guy built Hyderabd and his own enormous personal wealth on the backs of the poor.

Exactly the point I have been making all along! Now you want to rob those same poor people one more time by taking away Hyderabad from them.

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:Gajuwaka, Seethammadhara, etc., are nothing compared to villages in Rangareddi. Again, compare how many Telanganites contributed to the development of the villages in Rangareddi and those around Vizag.

You can compare the data on those and post them here. Let us share the workload involved in the development of these analysis; why should Telangana bear all the load of development?

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:You skipped the towns and who in T and SA contributed to their growth (not just in population but in various aspects).

You can post data on the towns I skipped, and include all the factors you want to include besides population. I shall eagerly await your analysis.

Opinions are a dime a dozen. It would be good to see some fact-based analysis from you for a change.

Why are Telugus fighting Telugus how to divide resources while Hindians are robbing you dry? Read Amartya Sen;s latest book how UP and MP is surviving from better off states.

 Idefix, why don't you plot graphs on how many crores are looted from Telugus from 1951 to 2012?

confuzzled dude wrote:

Idéfix wrote:

confuzzled dude wrote:My mother's village probably would outpace Tirupati & Bangalore on these charts
Bangalore was slightly behind Hyderabad till the '80s and took off since, also A.P became center's stepchild in the '80s when TDP was in the office. Better comparison would be Chennai which was Madras state's capital. Look what Thamizhans did to the good old Madras!

If your mother's village is a typical village in Andhra Pradesh, no, it will not outpace Tirupati or Bangalore. The reason is that rural population growth is significantly lower than urban population growth, with the migration of rural people to cities, and the urbanization of Andhra Pradesh. Between 1951 and 2011, the population of Andhra Pradesh grew at a CAGR of 1.7%. As you can see, the largest cities grew at almost twice that rate on average. That means the villages did not grow even at 1.7%.

Yes, Bangalore grew faster and Chennai slower; Hyderabad's growth is middle-of-the-pack when compared to its peers.

If you take look at district wise decadal variation in population between 1961 and 2011, they are pretty much uniform in both regions. For example, you can compare West Godavari, Guntur and Krishna with Nizamabad, Karimnagar and Mahabubnagar districts.

Exactly! Population is growing similarly on both sides when you look at the aggregate. But the largest SA cities grew faster than the largest T cities. Not what one might expect, based on the opinions peddled often as facts, is it? If T cities -- Hyderabad especially -- was developed preferentially at the expense of SA cities, then this is not what you would see in the data. Yet my guruvu-gaaru has said that is what happened. Hmm.

Here is proof of my guruvu-gaaru's comment that is directly contradicted by the data I posted:

SA was willing to build Hyderabad into a prosperous mega city (at cost to SA towns and cities) because they believed in a united AP and in the prosperity of Telangana.

https://such.forumotion.com/t15080-what-should-seemandhra-do#116236

Now guruvu-gaaru speaks from the other side of his mouth and says, he was never fond of Telangana!

kinnera wrote:I am leaving for Hyd on Sunday (a family tragedy). So i'm a lil busy now. Will be gone for a month. 

anyway, good luck!

Sorry to hear that. Have a safe trip, hope everything turns out alright on your family front as well as state.

confuzzled dude wrote:

kinnera wrote:I am leaving for Hyd on Sunday (a family tragedy). So i'm a lil busy now. Will be gone for a month. 

anyway, good luck!

Sorry to hear that. Have a safe trip, hope everything turns out alright on your family front as well as state.

 Thanks confuzzled!

Idéfix wrote:
So, there you have it. It is not true that Hyderabad was developed preferentially over Visakhapatnam and Vijayawada in Andhra Pradesh. It is also not true that Hyderabad's growth was exceptional among its peers. Bangalore grew even faster than Hyderabad. Visakhapatnam's growth easily outpaced that of Hyderabad and Bangalore. It is the unfortunate reality of Seemandhra that it did not have any major cities in 1955; Telangana is not responsible for that situation. The leaders of Seemandhra therefore agreed to designate Hyderabad the capital. People from Seemandhra invested in the city, created jobs there, and SA leaders brought public sector enterprises to Hyderabad. All these contributions of Seemandhra deserve acknowledgement. But Seemandhra people need to acknowledge that Hyderabad was India's fifth largest city before they came in, and that the people of Telangana (and Marathwada and Hyderabad-Karnataka) contributed to building the city before them.

 
This analysis is quite an eye-opener in terms of the population growth between Hyderabad and other cities in AP as well as major metros outside. If the present bifurcation is between Telangana and Seemandhra, my understanding is that 40% of the population will be in Telangana, 20% of Telangana population being in Hyderabad. Do you have any stats not only on the present GDP per capita of Hyderabad versus other cities in AP but also on the other metros in your analysis? Also its growth over the period you looked at?

goodcitizn wrote:

Idéfix wrote:
So, there you have it. It is not true that Hyderabad was developed preferentially over Visakhapatnam and Vijayawada in Andhra Pradesh. It is also not true that Hyderabad's growth was exceptional among its peers. Bangalore grew even faster than Hyderabad. Visakhapatnam's growth easily outpaced that of Hyderabad and Bangalore. It is the unfortunate reality of Seemandhra that it did not have any major cities in 1955; Telangana is not responsible for that situation. The leaders of Seemandhra therefore agreed to designate Hyderabad the capital. People from Seemandhra invested in the city, created jobs there, and SA leaders brought public sector enterprises to Hyderabad. All these contributions of Seemandhra deserve acknowledgement. But Seemandhra people need to acknowledge that Hyderabad was India's fifth largest city before they came in, and that the people of Telangana (and Marathwada and Hyderabad-Karnataka) contributed to building the city before them.

 
This analysis is quite an eye-opener in terms of the population growth between Hyderabad and other cities in AP as well as major metros outside. If the present bifurcation is between Telangana and Seemandhra, my understanding is that 40% of the population will be in Telangana, 20% of Telangana population being in Hyderabad. Do you have any stats not only on the present GDP per capita of Hyderabad versus other cities in AP but also on the other metros in your analysis? Also its growth over the period you looked at?

I haven't seen any reliable timeseries figures for GDP at any level below a state. When I have some time, I will look around for region- and city-level GDP figures, but I am not optimistic about finding anything useful. My hunch is that among AP cities, Hyderabad has the highest per-capita income, but Telangana has the lowest among the three AP regions.

goodcitizn wrote:
This analysis is quite an eye-opener in terms of the population growth between Hyderabad and other cities in AP as well as major metros outside. If the present bifurcation is between Telangana and Seemandhra, my understanding is that 40% of the population will be in Telangana, 20% of Telangana population being in Hyderabad. Do you have any stats not only on the present GDP per capita of Hyderabad versus other cities in AP but also on the other metros in your analysis? Also its growth over the period you looked at?

This is not what you're asking for but would give you a ballpark idea in terms of state's regional development. Of course, bottom 2 districts in the state belong to Kosta region. Hyd's total GDP would be approximately the sum of Hyd, Ranga Reddy & Medak districts GDP.

http://blog.tnsatish.com/2010/02/per-capita-income-and-gdp-by-district.html

confuzzled dude wrote:

goodcitizn wrote:
This analysis is quite an eye-opener in terms of the population growth between Hyderabad and other cities in AP as well as major metros outside. If the present bifurcation is between Telangana and Seemandhra, my understanding is that 40% of the population will be in Telangana, 20% of Telangana population being in Hyderabad. Do you have any stats not only on the present GDP per capita of Hyderabad versus other cities in AP but also on the other metros in your analysis? Also its growth over the period you looked at?

This is not what you're asking for but would give you a ballpark idea in terms of state's regional development. Of course, bottom 2 districts in the state belong to Kosta region. Hyd's total GDP would be approximately the sum of Hyd, Ranga Reddy & Medak districts GDP.

http://blog.tnsatish.com/2010/02/per-capita-income-and-gdp-by-district.html

Surprised to see Kadapa up there ahead of the two Godavaris and Krishna. What do they make in Kadapa -- apart from country bombs, that is?

I wish he had cited the actual Eenadu article so we could verify the methodology / actual source of the numbers. He just gave a link to the Eenadu main page.

Idéfix wrote:

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:It was a city before the ars of Nizam was kicked by Patel. After all, the guy built Hyderabd and his own enormous personal wealth on the backs of the poor.

Exactly the point I have been making all along! Now you want to rob those same poor people one more time by taking away Hyderabad from them.

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:Gajuwaka, Seethammadhara, etc., are nothing compared to villages in Rangareddi. Again, compare how many Telanganites contributed to the development of the villages in Rangareddi and those around Vizag.

You can compare the data on those and post them here. Let us share the workload involved in the development of these analysis; why should Telangana bear all the load of development?

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:You skipped the towns and who in T and SA contributed to their growth (not just in population but in various aspects).

You can post data on the towns I skipped, and include all the factors you want to include besides population. I shall eagerly await your analysis.

Opinions are a dime a dozen. It would be good to see some fact-based analysis from you for a change.

It is all yours! You seem to enjoy data crunching.

Hopefully, Sonia et al., will finalize the split in a win-win manner for both and KCR takes to his bottle, develops amnesia on the word "bhaago" and tells his 2 kids to shut up.

It appears as if the district-wise GDP numbers cited above are from the Sri Krishna Commission report.

This report helped bust the myth propagated by Telangana leaders that irrigation in Telangana hasn't progressed under united Andhra Pradesh. The report shows with numbers (see Figure 2.20 on page 87) that in fact irrigation increased faster in Telangana than in coastal Andhra, which already had good irrigation infrastructure built during British rule.

The big difference in economic priorities between the Nizam and the British was this: the Nizam looted all he could from the villages and spent a small portion of that money on building Hyderabad; there was no major investment during his time on river-fed irrigation, and river projects were about flood prevention and water supply in the city of Hyderabad. The British, on the other hand, viewed the Krishna-Godavari region not as an urban center -- Madras served that purpose for them very well -- but as the granary of southern India. They built dams and canal infrastructure that made coastal Andhra highly productive. So when the two sides came together in 1956, Telangana had a great city and no irrigation, and coastal Andhra had great irrigation and no city.

The numbers I analyzed show that united Andhra Pradesh has succeeded in developing two major cities in coastal Andhra faster than it developed Hyderabad. Sri Krishna Commission's report shows that united Andhra Pradesh developed irrigation in Telangana faster than in coastal Andhra. Telangana is still behind coastal Andhra on irrigation, just as coastal Andhra's big cities are still behind Telangana's. IMO, this shows that united AP has done a good job in fixing the pre-existing distortions of the economies of the two regions, and leveling the gaps between them.

There is another myth that Seemandhra folks propagate now, about industry not being developed in Seemandhra because it was preferentially developed in Hyderabad (or Telangana). My guruvu-gaaru has often made this claim here. The report busts this myth as well. On page 103, the report shows that coastal Andhra has 13,284 factories, while Telangana -- including Hyderabad -- has 12,308 factories. If you add Rayalaseema's 3,844 factories, SA is way ahead of Telangana in this respect. Clearly, the idea that industry was developed preferentially in Telagana at the expense of Seemandhra is a myth that is unsupported by facts.

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:It is all yours! You seem to enjoy data crunching.

I like to argue based on facts, not opinions manufactured by mixing one part ignorance with two parts prejudice.

confuzzled dude wrote:

goodcitizn wrote:
This analysis is quite an eye-opener in terms of the population growth between Hyderabad and other cities in AP as well as major metros outside. If the present bifurcation is between Telangana and Seemandhra, my understanding is that 40% of the population will be in Telangana, 20% of Telangana population being in Hyderabad. Do you have any stats not only on the present GDP per capita of Hyderabad versus other cities in AP but also on the other metros in your analysis? Also its growth over the period you looked at?

This is not what you're asking for but would give you a ballpark idea in terms of state's regional development. Of course, bottom 2 districts in the state belong to Kosta region. Hyd's total GDP would be approximately the sum of Hyd, Ranga Reddy & Medak districts GDP.

http://blog.tnsatish.com/2010/02/per-capita-income-and-gdp-by-district.html

cd, thanks for the link. The data is over 5 years old, yet something to go by. Surprised that Vizag is neck and neck with Hyderabad. Vizag probably has more potential for rapid growth given its location and industries. I'd have expected Nellore, Guntur and Anantapur to have ranked higher GDP per capita than a few others on the list. Of course, Guntur ranks higher in absolute GDP.

Idéfix wrote:

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:It is all yours! You seem to enjoy data crunching.

I like to argue based on facts, not opinions  manufactured by mixing one part ignorance with two parts prejudice.

 Let others express that opinion about you. Otherwise, you will become a friend of KCR who has all the facts!

confuzzled dude wrote:

goodcitizn wrote:
This analysis is quite an eye-opener in terms of the population growth between Hyderabad and other cities in AP as well as major metros outside. If the present bifurcation is between Telangana and Seemandhra, my understanding is that 40% of the population will be in Telangana, 20% of Telangana population being in Hyderabad. Do you have any stats not only on the present GDP per capita of Hyderabad versus other cities in AP but also on the other metros in your analysis? Also its growth over the period you looked at?

This is not what you're asking for but would give you a ballpark idea in terms of state's regional development. Of course, bottom 2 districts in the state belong to Kosta region. Hyd's total GDP would be approximately the sum of Hyd, Ranga Reddy & Medak districts GDP.

http://blog.tnsatish.com/2010/02/per-capita-income-and-gdp-by-district.html

 So, what are the T guys complaining about? The poor guys in Vijayanagaram and Srikakulam are the ones who need real help.

Now, the T-senaadhipati on SuCh will go into hiding.

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:

confuzzled dude wrote:

goodcitizn wrote:
This analysis is quite an eye-opener in terms of the population growth between Hyderabad and other cities in AP as well as major metros outside. If the present bifurcation is between Telangana and Seemandhra, my understanding is that 40% of the population will be in Telangana, 20% of Telangana population being in Hyderabad. Do you have any stats not only on the present GDP per capita of Hyderabad versus other cities in AP but also on the other metros in your analysis? Also its growth over the period you looked at?

This is not what you're asking for but would give you a ballpark idea in terms of state's regional development. Of course, bottom 2 districts in the state belong to Kosta region. Hyd's total GDP would be approximately the sum of Hyd, Ranga Reddy & Medak districts GDP.

http://blog.tnsatish.com/2010/02/per-capita-income-and-gdp-by-district.html

 So, what are the T guys complaining about? The poor guys in Vijayanagaram and Srikakulam are the ones who need real help.

Now, the T-senaadhipati on SuCh will go into hiding.

Karimnagar has been the rice bowl of the state for past few years. Rea estate prices in towns like Nizamabad were off the charts a couple of years ago.

Idéfix wrote:

confuzzled dude wrote:

goodcitizn wrote:
This analysis is quite an eye-opener in terms of the population growth between Hyderabad and other cities in AP as well as major metros outside. If the present bifurcation is between Telangana and Seemandhra, my understanding is that 40% of the population will be in Telangana, 20% of Telangana population being in Hyderabad. Do you have any stats not only on the present GDP per capita of Hyderabad versus other cities in AP but also on the other metros in your analysis? Also its growth over the period you looked at?

This is not what you're asking for but would give you a ballpark idea in terms of state's regional development. Of course, bottom 2 districts in the state belong to Kosta region. Hyd's total GDP would be approximately the sum of Hyd, Ranga Reddy & Medak districts GDP.

http://blog.tnsatish.com/2010/02/per-capita-income-and-gdp-by-district.html

Surprised to see Kadapa up there ahead of the two Godavaris and Krishna. What do they make in Kadapa -- apart from country bombs, that is?

I wish he had cited the actual Eenadu article so we could verify the methodology / actual source of the numbers. He just gave a link to the Eenadu main page.

YSR Amar Raahe!  

Idéfix wrote:It appears as if the district-wise GDP numbers cited above are from the Sri Krishna Commission report.

This report helped bust the myth propagated by Telangana leaders that irrigation in Telangana hasn't progressed under united Andhra Pradesh. The report shows with numbers (see Figure 2.20 on page 87) that in fact irrigation increased faster in Telangana than in coastal Andhra, which already had good irrigation infrastructure built during British rule.

The big difference in economic priorities between the Nizam and the British was this: the Nizam looted all he could from the villages and spent a small portion of that money on building Hyderabad; there was no major investment during his time on river-fed irrigation, and river projects were about flood prevention and water supply in the city of Hyderabad. The British, on the other hand, viewed the Krishna-Godavari region not as an urban center -- Madras served that purpose for them very well -- but as the granary of southern India. They built dams and canal infrastructure that made coastal Andhra highly productive. So when the two sides came together in 1956, Telangana had a great city and no irrigation, and coastal Andhra had great irrigation and no city.

The numbers I analyzed show that united Andhra Pradesh has succeeded in developing two major cities in coastal Andhra faster than it developed Hyderabad. Sri Krishna Commission's report shows that united Andhra Pradesh developed irrigation in Telangana faster than in coastal Andhra. Telangana is still behind coastal Andhra on irrigation, just as coastal Andhra's big cities are still behind Telangana's. IMO, this shows that united AP has done a good job in fixing the pre-existing distortions of the economies of the two regions, and leveling the gaps between them.

There is another myth that Seemandhra folks propagate now, about industry not being developed in Seemandhra because it was preferentially developed in Hyderabad (or Telangana). My guruvu-gaaru has often made this claim here. The report busts this myth as well. On page 103, the report shows that coastal Andhra has 13,284 factories, while Telangana -- including Hyderabad -- has 12,308 factories. If you add Rayalaseema's 3,844 factories, SA is way ahead of Telangana in this respect. Clearly, the idea that industry was developed preferentially in Telagana at the expense of Seemandhra is a myth that is unsupported by facts.

Rice mills are considered factories now! What is the baseline?  Also, Vizag shipyard predates A.P. All the super specialty hospitals are located in the city it doesn't mean Telnagana region is at an advantage, Nizamabad/Adilabad folks will have to travel as much as Kosta folks to get to Hyd. Vizag city, definitely picked up pace, especially under congress govt., Had it got the Volkswagen factory it would've been even further ahead.

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:So, what are the T guys complaining about? The poor guys in Vijayanagaram and Srikakulam are the ones who need real help.

Now, the T-senaadhipati on SuCh will go into hiding.

If you mean me, I am flattered -- although I am (like the US Army says in its recruiting literature), a sEna of one. I hope you start awarding ranks to the SA soldiers too, so I know the chain of command and the proper way to address each of you.

Seriously though, I agree with you on this point. I don't think the argument of discrimination against Telangana on irrigation in particular or development in general holds much water*. I don't even think there is much of a case for a separate state that can be made based solely on facts. This is why I have never actively advocated for separation of Telangana, and have always advocated ways to reduce tensions and marginalize people like KCR.

The only case for separation that I cannot dispute with facts is the one based on emotions and perceptions. Facts tend to be useless against emotions. As I have told you often, attitudes like the ones you frequently express about the people, culture, and language of Telangana contributed in a big way to this impending separation. Nobody likes to be insulted needlessly, and the people of Telangana seem to have had enough of people like you doing just that. The arguments we have had over the last two weeks show the deadly combination of fact-free opinions and sheer prejudices that some Seemandhra people seem to harbor about Telangana and Hyderabad. It is not possible to have a good marriage when the partners do not respect each other, and no marriage is usually better than a bad marriage.

Now that the divorce seems inevitable, I don't want Telangana to be robbed of the one thing the blood and sweat of its people built under the Nizam: the great city of Hyderabad. I have used indisputable facts to show that your arguments for robbing Telangana of Hyderabad are basically myths.

* Note for pundits: not sure whether to intend pun here.

confuzzled dude wrote:Rice mills are considered factories now! What is the baseline?

The report doesn't state the baseline; my guess is nobody has that data.

confuzzled dude wrote:All the super specialty hospitals are located in the city it doesn't mean Telnagana region is at an advantage, Nizamabad/Adilabad folks will have to travel as much as Kosta folks to get to Hyd. Vizag city, definitely picked up pace, especially under congress govt., Had it got the Volkswagen factory it would've been even further ahead.

I agree.

confuzzled dude wrote:

Idéfix wrote:
Surprised to see Kadapa up there ahead of the two Godavaris and Krishna. What do they make in Kadapa -- apart from country bombs, that is?

I wish he had cited the actual Eenadu article so we could verify the methodology / actual source of the numbers. He just gave a link to the Eenadu main page.

YSR Amar Raahe!  

Sure, but what did he do that's raised the per-capita GDP to be above the K-G region?

Kadapa owes its rise to jagan's wealth. cd confirmed.khammam was placed too high on per capita. it has wide agency area.
i suspect the data on hyd and vzg gap. some of hyd's gdp may be counted in range ready and meDak. but that does not explain how 50% revenue comes from hyd .
hyd revenue is likely to be much larger than vzg.

truthbetold wrote:Kadapa owes its rise to jagan's wealth. cd confirmed.khammam was placed too high on per capita. it has wide agency area.
i suspect the data on hyd and vzg gap. some of hyd's gdp may be counted in range ready and meDak. but that does not explain how 50% revenue comes from hyd .
hyd revenue is likely to be much larger than  vzg.

Yes, the report shows Hyderabad sales tax revenues to be much higher. You are right about Hyderabad GDP showing up in Ranga Reddy and Medak, as the city is bigger than the district now.