Moral Policing in Mumbai

Let me understand the reason for the moral police.

1. Window displays of mannequins wearing bras and panties trigger rape.

2. Ladies walking around in tank tops and jeans trigger rape.

3. Couples sitting out closely in public trigger rape.

What should India look like? Abu Dhabi?

goodcitizn wrote:Let me understand the reason for the moral police.

1. Window displays of mannequins wearing bras and panties trigger rape.

2. Ladies walking around in tank tops and jeans trigger rape.

3. Couples sitting out closely in public trigger rape.

What should India look like? Abu Dhabi?

Abu Dhabi is posh and far far liberal.

goodcitizn wrote:Let me understand the reason for the moral police.

1. Window displays of mannequins wearing bras and panties trigger rape.

2. Ladies walking around in tank tops and jeans trigger rape.

3. Couples sitting out closely in public trigger rape.

What should India look like? Abu Dhabi?

It is easy to question others biases or prejudices. Why don't you spell out your reasons for what triggers rape in general and validate it against the Delhi and Mumbai episodes and let us evaluate it.

smArtha wrote:

goodcitizn wrote:Let me understand the reason for the moral police.

1. Window displays of mannequins wearing bras and panties trigger rape.

2. Ladies walking around in tank tops and jeans trigger rape.

3. Couples sitting out closely in public trigger rape.

What should India look like? Abu Dhabi?

It is easy to question others biases or prejudices. Why don't you spell out your reasons for what triggers rape in general and validate it against the Delhi and Mumbai episodes and let us evaluate it.

Simple. Corrupt police and an extremely lax judicial system allow rapes to go on. How many times do your hear about politicians and sons of politicians, as well as policemen involved in rapes? And when rapists are apprehended, the system is too slow in convicting and sentencing them. That is where the real problem is and not with mannequins sporting undergarments or tank-top attired women. In fact, there are more rapes committed on sareed women than anything else. The police should be focusing on criminality, not morality per se since morality is very subjective.

smArtha wrote:

goodcitizn wrote:Let me understand the reason for the moral police.

1. Window displays of mannequins wearing bras and panties trigger rape.

2. Ladies walking around in tank tops and jeans trigger rape.

3. Couples sitting out closely in public trigger rape.

What should India look like? Abu Dhabi?

It is easy to question others biases or prejudices. Why don't you spell out your reasons for what triggers rape in general and validate it against the Delhi and Mumbai episodes and let us evaluate it.

It may seem easy, but questioning biases and prejudices is often a necessary first step on the road to removing those biases and prejudices.

goodcitizn wrote:

smArtha wrote:

goodcitizn wrote:Let me understand the reason for the moral police.

1. Window displays of mannequins wearing bras and panties trigger rape.

2. Ladies walking around in tank tops and jeans trigger rape.

3. Couples sitting out closely in public trigger rape.

What should India look like? Abu Dhabi?

It is easy to question others biases or prejudices. Why don't you spell out your reasons for what triggers rape in general and validate it against the Delhi and Mumbai episodes and let us evaluate it.

Simple. Corrupt police and an extremely lax judicial system allow rapes to go on. How many times do your hear about politicians and sons of politicians, as well as policemen involved in rapes? And when rapists are apprehended, the system is too slow in convicting and sentencing them. That is where the real problem is and not with mannequins sporting undergarments or tank-top attired women. In fact, there are more rapes committed on sareed women than anything else. The police should be focusing on criminality, not morality per se since morality is very subjective.

It's too easy to blame corrupt cops and a lax judicial system. But that IMO is a lazy explanation because we never cite these reasons to explain why murders take place in India. In fact, it might be an interesting analysis to see if the murder rate per 1000 citizens has gone up over time and if it has gone up faster than the number of rapes per 1000 citizens.

One of the reasons why the conviction rates in rape are low in India is because a large number of rape complaints are bogus, filed only after a consensual affair goes sour. Even when the case is prima facie not a rape, the police are still rule-bound to register it as one and that skews that statistic very unfavorably.

Second, there is a phenomenal sexual inequity in India. The linkage between growing economic inequity and rising incidence of petty crime is pretty well understood globally. But sexual inequity is a more third world phenomenon and therefore doesn't get the attention it deserves. The occasional cop or politician who suggests this gets whipped all round by the politically correct crowds. But this is a rationale that deserves more attention. The hordes of impoverished immigrants from the hinterland who flock to the big cities and make up the cheap labor pool are almost always male, alone in a big city, without any family, sharing a room with six other men and with no access to unpaid sex. And yet they see all these women around them, walking around freely, dressed and behaving in ways unthinkable in the hinterland and it is only natural they aspire for a piece of that action. Leave aside those higher class women, even the women in their own economic class won't encourage them because they too aspire for men in a class or two above them. Given this complete denial of access, something somewhere has to give. And it often does.

Merlot Daruwala wrote:

goodcitizn wrote:

smArtha wrote:

goodcitizn wrote:Let me understand the reason for the moral police.

1. Window displays of mannequins wearing bras and panties trigger rape.

2. Ladies walking around in tank tops and jeans trigger rape.

3. Couples sitting out closely in public trigger rape.

What should India look like? Abu Dhabi?

It is easy to question others biases or prejudices. Why don't you spell out your reasons for what triggers rape in general and validate it against the Delhi and Mumbai episodes and let us evaluate it.

Simple. Corrupt police and an extremely lax judicial system allow rapes to go on. How many times do your hear about politicians and sons of politicians, as well as policemen involved in rapes? And when rapists are apprehended, the system is too slow in convicting and sentencing them. That is where the real problem is and not with mannequins sporting undergarments or tank-top attired women. In fact, there are more rapes committed on sareed women than anything else. The police should be focusing on criminality, not morality per se since morality is very subjective.

It's too easy to blame corrupt cops and a lax judicial system. But that IMO is a lazy explanation because we never cite these reasons to explain why murders take place in India. In fact, it might be an interesting analysis to see if the murder rate per 1000 citizens has gone up over time and if it has gone up faster than the number of rapes per 1000 citizens.

One of the reasons why the conviction rates in rape are low in India is because a large number of rape complaints are bogus, filed only after a consensual affair goes sour. Even when the case is prima facie not a rape, the police are still rule-bound to register it as one and that skews that statistic very unfavorably.

Second, there is a phenomenal sexual inequity in India. The linkage between growing economic inequity and rising incidence of petty crime is pretty well understood globally. But sexual inequity is a more third world phenomenon and therefore doesn't get the attention it deserves. The occasional cop or politician who suggests this gets whipped all round by the politically correct crowds. But this is a rationale that deserves more attention. The hordes of impoverished immigrants from the hinterland who flock to the big cities and make up the cheap labor pool are almost always male, alone in a big city, without any family, sharing a room with six other men and with no access to unpaid sex. And yet they see all these women around them, walking around freely, dressed and behaving in ways unthinkable in the hinterland and it is only natural they aspire for a piece of that action. Leave aside those higher class women, even the women in their own economic class won't encourage them because they too aspire for men in a class or two above them. Given this complete denial of access, something somewhere has to give. And it often does.

I am surprised that you are making excuses for the poor criminal justice system in India. I am equally surprised that you bring sexual inequity as the most relevant reason for rapes in India.

If you attribute rape to sexual inequity, how do you explain that America, Sweden, New Zealand etc have far higher incidence of rapes than India? In fact, there is a rape occuring in America every two minutes according to the U.S. Dept of Justice. Granted that a lot of rapes go unreported because the victims feel a sense of shame or fear of reprisal from the assailant but that is universal not confined only to India. Realistically bogus claims of rape would be far less than unreported rapes so if there is any skewing at all it would be on the low side due to unreported rapes, not higher because of bogus reports.

Murder rate and rape rate are not comparable. Legalize guns in India and see what happens to the murder rate. If you ask a woman what she fears most in India, she'll most likely mention chain-snatching ahead of rape. So let us not get sidetracked into a mixed bag of fruits here. Given the presence of alcohol in a high number of rape incidents, there probably is a stronger correlation between alcohol and rape than woman's clothing and rape. This is especially true of poorer quarters where cheap alcohol is readily available almost at any time. The politicians would be more willing to blame women's attire before they blame alcohol since it is neither popular nor profitable to opt for a dry state or country. By the same token, are we ready to ban porn on the internet like China and some other muslim countries? Do we need more censorship in movies and TV? Or, should the country be more concerned about illiteracy and unemployment that are making more of the labor force itinerant, if in fact these immigrant laborers should be blamed for rapes?

Here's an article from the Washington Post citing 10 reasons why India has a sexual violence problem.

1. Few female police.
2. Not enough police in general.
3. Blaming provocative clothing.
4. Acceptance of domestic violence.
5. Lack of public safety.
6. Stigmatizing the victim.
7. Encouraging rape victims to compromise.
8. A sluggish court system.
9. Few convictions.
10. Low status of women.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2012/12/29/india-rape-victim-dies-sexual-violence-proble/

i wouldn't be so dismissive of daruwala. in these spectacularly gruesome urban rapes, lack of access to sex and sexual partners in roving bands of low status men with testosterone to spare definitely has to be a factor. how can it not?

Merlot Daruwala wrote:The hordes of impoverished immigrants from the hinterland who flock to the big cities and make up the cheap labor pool are almost always male, alone in a big city, without any family, sharing a room with six other men and with no access to unpaid sex.

to that i would also add that going back to the hinterland doesn't solve that problem either because their potential sexual partners have been systematically culled out of the population by selective infanticide and foeticide. only their mothers, grandmothers, and aunts are left.  basically, there is nothing to look forward to.

Statement A: Rape is about sex. Lack of sex drives low-status men to resort to rape to satisfy their sexual hunger.

Statement B: Rape is about power, misogyny, inferiority complex and fear. Socio-economic inequity leads to assertion of dominance through rapes.

Which story do you like?

Petrichor wrote:Statement A: Rape is about sex. Lack of sex drives low-status men to resort to rape to satisfy their sexual hunger.

Statement B: Rape is about power, misogyny, inferiority complex and fear. Socio-economic inequity leads to assertion of dominance through rapes.

Which story do you like?

sometimes A, sometimes B, and sometimes both.

Petrichor wrote:Statement A: Rape is about sex. Lack of sex drives low-status men to resort to rape to satisfy their sexual hunger.

Statement B: Rape is about power, misogyny, inferiority complex and fear. Socio-economic inequity leads to assertion of dominance through rapes.

Which story do you like?

Forget what we all like. Which story do you think fits the Delhi and Mumbai episodes? 
The narratives and reports point to A. If there are any that are able to explain these two episodes with the B, I'm all ears for that.

goodcitizn wrote:
If you attribute rape to sexual inequity, how do you explain that America, Sweden, New Zealand etc have far higher incidence of rapes than India? In fact, there is a rape occuring in America every two minutes according to the U.S. Dept of Justice. 

Here's an article from the Washington Post citing 10 reasons why India has a sexual violence problem.

1. Few female police.
2. Not enough police in general.
3. Blaming provocative clothing.
4. Acceptance of domestic violence.
5. Lack of public safety.
6. Stigmatizing the victim.
7. Encouraging rape victims to compromise.
8. A sluggish court system.
9. Few convictions.
10. Low status of women.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2012/12/29/india-rape-victim-dies-sexual-violence-proble/

Let's take it ahead on the same lines.. if you attribute substandard policing, law & order and judicial system for rape then how do you explain the higher incidence of same in US where there are better police and judicial processes, systems and infrastructure?

smArtha wrote:

goodcitizn wrote:
If you attribute rape to sexual inequity, how do you explain that America, Sweden, New Zealand etc have far higher incidence of rapes than India? In fact, there is a rape occuring in America every two minutes according to the U.S. Dept of Justice. 

Here's an article from the Washington Post citing 10 reasons why India has a sexual violence problem.

1. Few female police.
2. Not enough police in general.
3. Blaming provocative clothing.
4. Acceptance of domestic violence.
5. Lack of public safety.
6. Stigmatizing the victim.
7. Encouraging rape victims to compromise.
8. A sluggish court system.
9. Few convictions.
10. Low status of women.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2012/12/29/india-rape-victim-dies-sexual-violence-proble/

Let's take it ahead on the same lines.. if you attribute substandard policing, law & order and judicial system for rape then how do you explain the higher incidence of same in US where there are better police and judicial processes, systems and infrastructure?

it is my opinion that the only reason rape rates are higher in the US is because of massive and i mean really massive (maybe by two or three orders of magnitude) under reporting in india. when it carries so much social stigma and life altering scenarios for women should it become known, women are bound to not report them at high rates.  i am firmly convinced that india is THE rape capital of the world.

the corollary of which is that if the true incidence rate of rape in india were to become known, the US will look like shangri la.

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
the corollary of which is that if the true incidence rate of rape in india were to become known, the US will look like shangri la.

Agree... even the Bombay rapists are now known to have raped at least 3 others in the last 2 months and no one knew or heard about them. I bet there are other groups using this Shakti mills for all kinds of criminal activities. DEspite all those rapes in that place, this is the first time something has been reported. Also, who knows how many rag pickers, poor laborers, cleaners have been raped in that single location.

Now just extrapolate them and there is the scary thought.

smArtha wrote:

Petrichor wrote:Statement A: Rape is about sex. Lack of sex drives low-status men to resort to rape to satisfy their sexual hunger.

Statement B: Rape is about power, misogyny, inferiority complex and fear. Socio-economic inequity leads to assertion of dominance through rapes.

Which story do you like?

Forget what we all like. Which story do you think fits the Delhi and Mumbai episodes? 
The narratives and reports point to A. If there are any that are able to explain these two episodes with the B, I'm all ears for that.

The two may be related. If sex is one of the means of demonstrating one's power over another human being, then B is the underlying cause, and manifests itself as A. Rape was practiced by victorious armies throughout most of history, and it has been used as an assertion of power.

smArtha wrote:

goodcitizn wrote:http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2012/12/29/india-rape-victim-dies-sexual-violence-proble/

Let's take it ahead on the same lines.. if you attribute substandard policing, law & order and judicial system for rape then how do you explain the higher incidence of same in US where there are better police and judicial processes, systems and infrastructure?

A very good question. The U.S. is grappling with the highest number of prisons and convicts than anywhere else in the world despite its police and judiciary because it is dealing with a culture of violence excerbated even more by drugs and gangs. In fact there is even talks about converting many government healthcare institutions that have very little census into juvenile detention centers and civil prisons due to lack of space in the penitentiaries. In comparison, India is a much milder society and drug trafficking is not as prevalent.

Idéfix wrote:The two may be related. If sex is one of the means of demonstrating one's power over another human being, then B is the underlying cause, and manifests itself as A. Rape was practiced by victorious armies throughout most of history, and it has been used as an assertion of power.

Let's assume that the underlying factor in Mumbai or Delhi episodes is 'the expression of power and dominance'. Also, as the mindset is largely a product of patriarchal culture there is an unsaid acceptance of the 'male is more powerful than the female'. If I combine these two then the perpetrator gangs were better off abusing and overpowering the male in their victim pairs than the female. What better way to express one's power than overpowering the stronger of their victims. And this was not the case in both cases viz. the physical abuse committed -even discounting the sexual aspect- against the females was worse than that against their male companions.

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:i wouldn't be so dismissive of daruwala. in these spectacularly gruesome urban rapes, lack of access to sex and sexual partners in roving bands of low status men with testosterone to spare definitely has to be a factor. how can it not?

Merlot Daruwala wrote:The hordes of impoverished immigrants from the hinterland who flock to the big cities and make up the cheap labor pool are almost always male, alone in a big city, without any family, sharing a room with six other men and with no access to unpaid sex.

to that i would also add that going back to the hinterland doesn't solve that problem either because their potential sexual partners have been systematically culled out of the population by selective infanticide and foeticide. only their mothers, grandmothers, and aunts are left.  basically, there is nothing to look forward to.

Rapes happen in villages too. If the argument is that the poor urbanites cannot afford prostitutes and resort to rapes, I am not so sure. Rape is an act of violence and gang rapes would be taking it to the extreme. It takes a certain mindset to commit such a crime. I am not so sure that abolishing mannequins wearing lingerie or controlling ladies as to how much their body ought to be covered is the right way to go about it. Interesting you brought up female foeticide. Never thought of it before.

As Sean Connery says memorably, "May I be of assistance?"

http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=hUCUg02fqCgC&oi=fnd&pg=PR7&dq=psychology+of+rape&ots=6eNfXotZP6&sig=53YuZ_IOcUGiT4-a9zltIFvlPi0#v=onepage&q=psychology%20of%20rape&f=false

Petrichor wrote:As Sean Connery says memorably, "May I be of assistance?"

http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=hUCUg02fqCgC&oi=fnd&pg=PR7&dq=psychology+of+rape&ots=6eNfXotZP6&sig=53YuZ_IOcUGiT4-a9zltIFvlPi0#v=onepage&q=psychology%20of%20rape&f=false

Thanks. Very detailed stuff to read. Will peruse at leisure.

whatever the reasons are, they should encourage our sociology depts to do a proper study and not depend on easy answers abt patriarchy and whatnot that are peddled by the western feminist movement.