a historical sense

The place I grew up in was not just culturally denuded, but—and this is to be expected, for we can only value what we have the means to assess—it held its past in contempt. Urdu was given some token respect—though no one really bothered to learn it—but Sanskrit was actively mocked and despised. It was as if the very sound of the language had become debased. People recoiled from names that were too Sanskritic, dismissing them as lower class: ‘Narindar,’ someone might say, ‘what a driver’s name!’ They preferred Armaan and Zhyra and Alaaya. The Sanskrit teacher in most elite schools was a figure of fun. And people took great joy at having come out of a school, such as The Doon School, say, without having learnt any more Sanskrit than a derisive little rhyme about flatulence.

I thought it no less interesting to observe the little jumps of meaning a root made as it travelled over the Indo-European belt. Take vertere, ‘to turn’, from the old Latin uortere: we have it in Sanskrit too: vrt, vartate: ‘to turn, turn round, revolve, roll; to be, to live, to exist, to abide and dwell’. It is related to the German werden—‘to become’. From where we have the Old English wyrd—‘fate, destiny’; but also werde: ‘death’. That extra layer of meaning restored, it was impossible ever to think of Shakespeare’s ‘weird sisters’ from Macbeth in the same way again.

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:http://www.openthemagazine.com/article/art-culture/a-historical-sense

i discovered this writer when i tried to figure out who tavleen singh was, the author of the indian express articles on toilet politics that rishi posted. i love his writing! his voice is distinctly NOT of someone who is only thirty three. i am going to put his novels on my reading list.

this article also gives me insight on why urban northindians, of the delhi-punjabi kind in particular, make fun of hardcore sanskritic southern indian names.

The place I grew up in was not just culturally denuded, but—and this is to be expected, for we can only value what we have the means to assess—it held its past in contempt. Urdu was given some token respect—though no one really bothered to learn it—but Sanskrit was actively mocked and despised. It was as if the very sound of the language had become debased. People recoiled from names that were too Sanskritic, dismissing them as lower class: ‘Narindar,’ someone might say, ‘what a driver’s name!’ They preferred Armaan and Zhyra and Alaaya. The Sanskrit teacher in most elite schools was a figure of fun. And people took great joy at having come out of a school, such as The Doon School, say, without having learnt any more Sanskrit than a derisive little rhyme about flatulence.

southern indians have been the true keepers of sanskrit and its literary traditions.

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:this book should appeal to modi's sisterhood of saffron pants on SUCH:

http://www.amazon.com/Stranger-History-Journey-through-Islamic/dp/155597628X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1381074400&sr=8-1&keywords=aatish+taseer

their divergent views on the degree of religious extremism in pakistan and its future was one of the main sources of friction between aatish taseer and his father.

Rashmun wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:this book should appeal to modi's sisterhood of saffron pants on SUCH:

http://www.amazon.com/Stranger-History-Journey-through-Islamic/dp/155597628X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1381074400&sr=8-1&keywords=aatish+taseer

their divergent views on the degree of religious extremism in pakistan and its future was one of the main sources of friction between aatish taseer and his father.

Modi acolytes would do better to read this book:

http://www.amazon.com/Narendra-Modi-The-Man-Times/dp/9382618473/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1381075500&sr=8-1&keywords=Narendra+Modi

Rishi wrote:But there was something else. In India, where history had heaped confusion upon confusion, where everything was shoddy and haphazard and unplanned, the structure of Sanskrit, with its exquisite planning, was proof that it had not always been that way. It was like a little molecule of the Indian genius, intact, and saved in amber, for a country from which the memory of genius had departed.


>>>> Fantastic.

amitav ghosh wrote:Did Salman Taseer’s encounter with his own half-Sikh, half-Indian son play a part in prompting him to stand up for tolerance and pluralism in Pakistan? Had he read the book and was he perhaps trying to address his son’s judgement of him? It is impossible not to wonder. - See more at: http://amitavghosh.com/blog/?p=4705#sthash.PUba5zdG.dpuf

truthbetold wrote:Max,
If your excerpt is a representation of the author you are talking about,  I heard similar sentiments in south,  that is if you consider andhra pradesh as south. The divide is not north or south but it is more like brahmins /non brahmins. Indian middles class aping of west assisted by the derisive commentaries of missionary schools led to a negative sentiment towards non value added cultural icons,  ie Sanskrit. Brahmins are probably the only group that actively pursue learning Sanskrit along with few individuals who are interested in languages and linguistics.
as Indian middle class became more affluent,  more non brahmins are turning to Sanskrit and other Indian cultural tools.
Your north /south divide is your effort to fit facts to match your prejudice.

Rashmun wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:http://www.openthemagazine.com/article/art-culture/a-historical-sense

i discovered this writer when i tried to figure out who tavleen singh was, the author of the indian express articles on toilet politics that rishi posted. i love his writing! his voice is distinctly NOT of someone who is only thirty three. i am going to put his novels on my reading list.

this article also gives me insight on why urban northindians, of the delhi-punjabi kind in particular, make fun of hardcore sanskritic southern indian names.

The place I grew up in was not just culturally denuded, but—and this is to be expected, for we can only value what we have the means to assess—it held its past in contempt. Urdu was given some token respect—though no one really bothered to learn it—but Sanskrit was actively mocked and despised. It was as if the very sound of the language had become debased. People recoiled from names that were too Sanskritic, dismissing them as lower class: ‘Narindar,’ someone might say, ‘what a driver’s name!’ They preferred Armaan and Zhyra and Alaaya. The Sanskrit teacher in most elite schools was a figure of fun. And people took great joy at having come out of a school, such as The Doon School, say, without having learnt any more Sanskrit than a derisive little rhyme about flatulence.

southern indians have been the true keepers of sanskrit and its literary traditions.

Balderdash. North India has produced a galaxy of brilliant Sanskrit scholars down the ages. With respect to names, Bengalis and Oriyas typically have sanskritic names. Like Suhasini, Manasvini, etc. They are not southerners,

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

truthbetold wrote:Max,
If your excerpt is a representation of the author you are talking about,  I heard similar sentiments in south,  that is if you consider andhra pradesh as south. The divide is not north or south but it is more like brahmins /non brahmins. Indian middles class aping of west assisted by the derisive commentaries of missionary schools led to a negative sentiment towards non value added cultural icons,  ie Sanskrit. Brahmins are probably the only group that actively pursue learning Sanskrit along with few individuals who are interested in languages and linguistics.
as Indian middle class became more affluent,  more non brahmins are turning to Sanskrit and other Indian cultural tools.
Your north /south divide is your effort to fit facts to match your prejudice.

brahmin v non-brahmin is your favorite hobby horse i understand.  i don't have much interest in that.

that said, when i say keepers of sanskritic traditions, i don't mean just the language but also the the spirit of the vedas, the puranas, and the upanishads which found expression in chaste tamil in the poetry of the AzhwArs and the nAyanAars. in fact the guys who uphold the tradition of chanting the thEvAram in TN saivite temples are not the brahmins but of the OthuvAr caste. even tamil christians have sanskritized names.  there are many more examples like that. so i don't feel much inclined to modify anything i wrote. i am sure there are examples like that in telugu too. perhaps idefix can throw some light when he reads this thread.

Rishi wrote:But there was something else. In India, where history had heaped confusion upon confusion, where everything was shoddy and haphazard and unplanned, the structure of Sanskrit, with its exquisite planning, was proof that it had not always been that way. It was like a little molecule of the Indian genius, intact, and saved in amber, for a country from which the memory of genius had departed.


>>>> Fantastic.

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:it's funny to see someone calling Adi shankarA a malayALi! there was no such distinct language as malayALam in the eighth century.

Rashmun wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:it's funny to see someone calling Adi shankarA a malayALi! there was no such distinct language as malayALam in the eighth century.

All right, a native of Kerala, and not a malayali. Culturally, present day Kerala had become distinct from TN by the time of Sankara. For instance, the Mimansa philosophy ( under the influence of the Namboodari Brahmins ) was the dominant philosophy during and long after the times of Adi Sankara while this was not the case in what is now TN.

truthbetold wrote:I also do not mince words in my criticism.

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:an obit written for his father when the emotions must have been still raw:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/pakistan/8248162/The-killer-of-my-father-Salman-Taseer-was-showered-with-rose-petals-by-fanatics.-How-could-they-do-this.html

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:an obit written for his father when the emotions must have been still raw:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/pakistan/8248162/The-killer-of-my-father-Salman-Taseer-was-showered-with-rose-petals-by-fanatics.-How-could-they-do-this.html

Rishi wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:an obit written for his father when the emotions must have been still raw:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/pakistan/8248162/The-killer-of-my-father-Salman-Taseer-was-showered-with-rose-petals-by-fanatics.-How-could-they-do-this.html

>>> I was not surprised when they did that.

Swami Sharddhanand, a Hindu reformer and an Arya Samaj leader was killed in 1926 by a Muslim fanatic. It is also relevant to mention that Arya Samaj opened up vedic schools to teach sanskrit to non-brahmins.

Shraddanand tried to bring back non-Hindus back to the religion of their forefathers. He was killed by a Muslim. There is a park in Pakistan which used to be called as Shraddhanand park. After partition, it was renamed after the killer of the swami.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swami_Shraddhanand

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

truthbetold wrote:I also do not mince words in my criticism.

i know that. they come pre-minced as they leave your keyboard.

truthbetold wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

truthbetold wrote:I also do not mince words in my criticism.

i know that. they come pre-minced as they leave your keyboard.

Max,
I am sure I will hit few keystrokes wrong soon. You will be waiting to pounce on those errors with the vengeance of a highly educated Sanskrit scholar. Somehow that proves your superior ability to defend your prejudiced arguments.

Propagandhi711 wrote:this guy writes clearly and is intense without being self conscious of his command of the english language.

Propagandhi711 wrote:this guy writes clearly and is intense without being self conscious of his command of the english language. he could be VS naipaul's successor except that VS is one of a kind.