The Rise of Islamism

confuzzled dude wrote:

Kinnera wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:most of the members of kris's favorite terrorist organization, the LTTE, are hindus. they were probably the most successful kaboom folks prior to 9/11. in fact the 9/11 folks took inspiration from them.

Did LTTE take their inspiration from Garuda Puranam?

No but from Skanda Puranam. Buddhists thought Prabhakaran's favorite god Kartikeya is too violent which irked him.

b_A wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:none of us here are experts on history, but the idea that religious radicalization is closely tied to political oppression (and this doesn't have to be oppression by a foreign agency) seems like a reasonable thesis. other religions too have some fairly nasty stuff in their holy books. the old testament sometimes reads like a torture manual. so also the garuda purANam.

As far as I know , Garudapuranam doesn't exhort its followers to mete out the punishments. It only says what might happen to sinners after they die and when they are in hell. And none of the other holy books exhort the followers to take it upon themselves to kill other people except the "on

Kinnera wrote:

confuzzled dude wrote:

Kinnera wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:most of the members of kris's favorite terrorist organization, the LTTE, are hindus. they were probably the most successful kaboom folks prior to 9/11. in fact the 9/11 folks took inspiration from them.

Did LTTE take their inspiration from Garuda Puranam?

No but from Skanda Puranam. Buddhists thought Prabhakaran's favorite god Kartikeya is too violent which irked him.

Isn't Prabhakaran a christian though?
whatever it is, is Kartikeya the reason for him to become a terrorist. Is kartikeya the reason for the LTTE to become terrorists?

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

Kinnera wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:but just like there are political forces driving irish, tamil, and basque terrorism there are political forces driving islamic terrorism. here is really what i want to say -- the existence of the book with violent prescriptions alone do not lead to terrorism. there are other books with equally vile prescriptions. there needs to be something else besides the existence of the book and i am saying that that something is nearly always political oppression, internal or external.

When 'the book' is their guiding force and they blindly believe in 'the book' and 'the book' suggests to them that it is ok to get violent with the ones who don't believe in 'the book', then the ppl who follow 'the book' can easily get violent.
Hindus don't have 'the book'. they have a whole library and they don't follow any of it blindly. there lies the difference.
political oppression and other reasons are just hogwash.

then explain the IRA and the basques.

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

then explain the IRA and the basques.

The outer skin of World Trade Center Tower Two that remained standing after an Islamist terrorist attack orchestrated by Al-Qaeda.

• 18 April 1983 - 1983 United States embassy bombing 63 killed, 120 wounded.
  
  
• 23 October 1983 - 1983 Beirut barracks bombing 305 killed, 75 wounded.
  
  
• 26 February 1993 – World Trade Center bombing, New York City. Six killed.
  
  
• 13 March 1993 – 1993 Bombay bombings. Mumbai, India. 250 dead, 700 injured.
  
  
• 28 July 1994 – Buenos Aires, Argentina. Vehicle suicide bombing attack against AMIA building, the local Jewish community representation. 85 dead, more than 300 injured.
  
  
• 24 December 1994 – Air France Flight 8969 hijacking in Algiers by three members of Armed Islamic Group of Algeria and another terrorist. Seven killed, including the hijackers.
  
  
• 25 June 1996 – Khobar Towers bombing, 20 killed, 372 wounded.
  
  
• 17 November 1997 – Luxor attack, six terrorists attack tourists at Egypts famous Luxor Ruins. 68 foreign tourists killed.
  
  
• 14 February 1998 – Bombing in Coimbatore, Tamil Nadu, India. 13 bombs explode within a 12 km radius. 46 killed and over 200 injured.
  
  
• 7 August 1998 – 1998 United States embassy bombings in Tanzania and Kenya. 224 dead. 4000+ injured.
  
  
• 4 September 1999 – A series of bombing attacks in several cities of Russia, nearly 300 killed.
  
  
• 12 October 2000 – Attack on the USS Cole in the Yemeni port of Aden.
  
  
• 11 September 2001 – Four planes hijacked and crashed into World Trade Center, The Pentagon and into a field in Shanksville by 19 hijackers. 2,977 killed and over 6,000 injured.^[194]
  
  
• 13 December 2001 – Suicide attack on Indian parliament in New Delhi by Pakistan-based Islamist terrorist organizations, Jaish-E-Mohammad and Lashkar-e-Toiba. Aimed at eliminating the top leadership of India and causing anarchy in the country. 7 dead, 12 injured.
  
  
• 27 March 2002 – Suicide bomb attack on a Passover Seder in a Hotel in Netanya, Israel. 30 dead, 133 injured.
  
  
• 30 March 2002 and 24 November 2002 - Attacks on the Hindu Raghunath temple, India. Total 25 dead.
  
  
• 24 September 2002 – Machine gun attack on Hindu temple in Ahmedabad, India. 31 dead, 86 injured.^[195][196]
  
  
• 12 October 2002 – Bombing in Bali nightclub. 202 killed, 300 injured.^[197]
  
  
• 16 May 2003 – Casablanca Attacks – Four simultaneous attacks in Casablanca killing 33 civilians (mostly Moroccans) carried by Salafia Jihadia.
  
  
• 11 March 2004 – Multiple bombings on trains near Madrid, Spain. 191 killed, 1460 injured (alleged link to Al-Qaeda).
  
  
• 1 September 2004 - Beslan school hostage crisis, approximately 344 civilians including 186 children killed.^[198][199]
  
  
• 2 November 2004 – The murder of Theo van Gogh (film director) by Amsterdam-born jihadist Mohammed Bouyeri.^[200]
  
  
• 5 July 2005 - Attack at the Hindu Ram temple at Ayodhya, India; one of the most holy sites of Hinduism. 6 dead.
  
  
• 7 July 2005 – Multiple bombings in London Underground. 53 killed by four suicide bombers. Nearly 700 injured.
  
  
• 23 July 2005 – Bomb attacks at Sharm el-Sheikh, an Egyptian resort city, at least 64 people killed.
  
  
• 29 October 2005 – 29 October 2005 Delhi bombings, India. Over 60 killed and over 180 injured in a series of three attacks in crowded markets and a bus, just 2 days before the Diwali festival.^[201]
  
  
• 9 November 2005 – 2005 Amman bombings. a series of coordinated suicide attacks on hotels in Amman, Jordan. Over 60 killed and 115 injured.^[202][203] Four attackers including a husband and wife team were involved.^[204]
  
  
• 7 March 2006 – 2006 Varanasi bombings, India. A series of attacks in the Sankath Mochan Hanuman temple and Cantonment Railway Station in the Hindu holy city ofVaranasi. 28 killed and over 100 injured.^[205]
  
  
• 11 July 2006 – 11 July 2006 Mumbai train bombings, Mumbai, India; a series of seven bomb blasts that took place over a period of 11 minutes on the Suburban Railway in Mumbai. 209 killed and over 700 injured.
  
  
• 14 August 2007 – Qahtaniya bombings: Four suicide vehicle bombers massacred nearly 800 members of northern Iraq's Yazidi sect in the deadliest Iraq war's attack to date.
  
  
• 26 July 2008 – 2008 Ahmedabad bombings, India. Islamic terrorists detonate at least 21 explosive devices in the heart of this industrial capital, leaving at least 56 dead and 200 injured. A Muslim group calling itself the Indian Mujahideen claims responsibility. Indian authorities believe that extremists with ties to Pakistan and/or Bangladesh are likely responsible and are intent on inciting communal violence.^[206] Investigation by Indian police led to the eventual arrest of a number of terrorists suspected of carrying out the blasts, most of whom belong to a well-known terrorist group, the Students Islamic Movement of India.^[207]
  
  
• 13 September 2008 – Bombing series in Delhi, India. Pakistani extremist groups plant bombs at several places including India Gate, out of which the ones at Karol Bagh,Connaught Place and Greater Kailash explode leaving around 30 people dead and 130 injured, followed by another attack two weeks later at the congested Mehrauli area, leaving 3 people dead.
  
  
• 26 November 2008 – Muslim extremists kill at least 174 people and wound numerous others in a series of coordinated attacks on India's largest city and financial capital,Mumbai. The government of India blamed Pakistan based militant group Lashkar-e-Taiba and stated that the terrorists killed/caught were citizens of Pakistan, a claim which the Pakistani government has refused. Ajmal Kasab, one of the terrorists, was caught alive.^[208][209]
  
  
• 25 October 2009. Baghdad, Iraq. During a terrorist attack, two bomber vehicles detonated in the Green Zone, killing at least 155 people and injuring 520.
  
  
• 28 October 2009 – Peshawar, Pakistan. A car bomb is detonated in a woman exclusive shopping district, and over 110 killed and over 200 injured.
  
  
• 3 December 2009 – Mogadishu, Somalia. A male suicide bomber disguised as a woman detonates in a hotel meeting hall. The hotel was hosting a graduation ceremony for local medical students when the blast went off, killing four government ministers as well as other civilians.^[210]
  
  
• 1 January 2010 – Lakki Marwat, Pakistan. A suicide car bomber drove his explosive-laden vehicle into a volleyball pitch as people gathered to watch a match killing more than 100 people.^[211]
  
  
• 1 May 2010 - New York, New York, USA. Faisal Shahzad, an Islamic Pakistani American who received U.S. citizenship in December 2009, attempted to detonate a car bomb inTimes Square working with the Pakistani Taliban or Tehrik-i-Taliban Pakistan.
  
  
• 13 May 2011 - Tehrik-i-Taliban Pakistan claimed attacks on two mosques simultaneously belonging to the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community, killing nearly 100 and injuring many others.^[212]
  
  
• 13 July 2011 - Three bombs exploded at different locations in Mumbai, perpetrated by Indian Mujahideen.
  
  
• 15 April 2013 - Dzhokhar and Tamerlan Tsarnaev set off two pressure cooker bombs at the finish line of the 2013 Boston Marathon and killed three people.
  
  
• 22 May 2013 - 2 Nigerian men attack and kill British Soldier, Lee Rigby in Woolwich, London, UK.^[213]
  
  
• 22 September 2013 - 61 civilians, 6 Kenyan soldiers, and 5 attackers die in the Westgate shopping mall attack.
  
  
• 1 March 2014 Kunming attack - Kunming, China. A group of knife-wielding Uyghur attackers stormed Kunming Railway Station, killing 29 civilians and wounding 143 people. 4 of the attackers were shot dead.
  
  

Kris wrote:

confuzzled dude wrote:

Kris wrote:
>>I gave you five examples outside the middle east. The West's realpolitik-based moves may well have caused the coming together of the jihadists under a pan-terrorist umbrella, but that does not explain the existence of why they exist altogether. To pretend that they are like run-of-the-mill rebels anywhere else is to ignore the 900 lb. gorilla in the living room i.e. a close-minded world view that has come about due to a mullah-cracy with no sense of modernity and is one bound to archaic ideas of politics and living. This devolution started long, long before Iraq or Israel's establishment or the Balfour declaration. American geopolitics may well be contentious, but there is no one being beheaded or terrorized when questions are raised on that front. The symmetry imagined between the West and the Islamic world is a convenient one, but one that is disingenuous.

The root cause of all those examples you've provided is not the same, they're driven by the sociopolitical situation of each society which varies greatly. You cannot paint all those situations with a broad brush just because they all happen to be practicing islam. In fact you're making a grave mistake by lumping all of them together; each of those issues should be judged on its own merits. If you put all of them in the same country do you think they will co-habitate without any problems. Can you say the same about other religions, the issues of Buddhists in Sri Lanka, Burma and Tibet, are they all the same?

>>>>If they are invoking one holy book and their lifestyle is governed by a set of religious traditions which they see as superior to that of their neighbors and subscribe to a pan-religious identity and they are explicit about it, yes, an assumption of a common root cause is valid.

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

then explain the IRA and the basques.

Then tell us when was the last time the IRA or Basque planted a bomb or killed innocent people?

You are fast competing with Rashmunullah into moving any discussion/post/questions away from disturbing/uncomfrtable questions regarding iSlam.  iSlam can never find better supporters even among muslims.

truthbetold wrote:

 

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

then explain the IRA and the basques.

Then tell us when was the last time the IRA or Basque planted a bomb or killed innocent people?

You are fast competing with Rashmunullah into moving any discussion/post/questions away from disturbing/uncomfrtable questions regarding iSlam.  iSlam can never find better supporters even among muslims.

i was responding to kris's time scale of pre WW 2 era. if the time period from then to now is  the subject of discussion, there is no escaping making the IRA a subject of discussion.

truthbetold wrote:Max,

I posted Pew research data above from 2003 to recent.  That shows a trend that Bin Laden had high support earlier.  It declined with US attacks on Al queda and the as truth came out about his activities (or people plain recognized this guy is a lost cause). 

As I said in my post , that information is from memory and before internet. So I am not sure I can find a news item on internet.  While I do not have numbers for 1990s, the above trends show the enough history for you to extend the trend.

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

then explain the IRA and the basques.

Then tell us when was the last time the IRA or Basque planted a bomb or killed innocent people?

You are fast competing with Rashmunullah into moving any discussion/post/questions away from disturbing/uncomfrtable questions regarding iSlam.  iSlam can never find better supporters even among muslims.

i was responding to kris's time scale of pre WW 2 era. if the time period from then to now is  the subject of discussion, there is no escaping making the IRA a subject of discussion.

Kris post was long burried, and you were doing a tit-for-tat with Kinny and was focused on the Kafir killers.  Besides IRA agreed for negotiations and compromise for a solution. But, the Kafir Killers will not compromise on any of the issues except for one final solution as per Koran.

You still dont see the difference between Kaffir Killers and all the other terror groups ????

Yeah rite...

truthbetold wrote:Examples of attacks[edit]

‹ The template below (Rellink) is being considered for merging. See templates for discussion to help reach a consensus.›

Main article: List of Islamic terrorist attacks

The outer skin of World Trade Center Tower Two that remained standing after an Islamist terrorist attack orchestrated by Al-Qaeda.

• 18 April 1983 - 1983 United States embassy bombing 63 killed, 120 wounded.
  
• 23 October 1983 - 1983 Beirut barracks bombing 305 killed, 75 wounded.
  
• 26 February 1993 – World Trade Center bombing, New York City. Six killed.
  
• 13 March 1993 – 1993 Bombay bombings. Mumbai, India. 250 dead, 700 injured.
  
• 28 July 1994 – Buenos Aires, Argentina. Vehicle suicide bombing attack against AMIA building, the local Jewish community representation. 85 dead, more than 300 injured.
  
• 24 December 1994 – Air France Flight 8969 hijacking in Algiers by three members of Armed Islamic Group of Algeria and another terrorist. Seven killed, including the hijackers.
  
• 25 June 1996 – Khobar Towers bombing, 20 killed, 372 wounded.
  
• 17 November 1997 – Luxor attack, six terrorists attack tourists at Egypts famous Luxor Ruins. 68 foreign tourists killed.
  
• 14 February 1998 – Bombing in Coimbatore, Tamil Nadu, India. 13 bombs explode within a 12 km radius. 46 killed and over 200 injured.
  
• 7 August 1998 – 1998 United States embassy bombings in Tanzania and Kenya. 224 dead. 4000+ injured.
  
• 4 September 1999 – A series of bombing attacks in several cities of Russia, nearly 300 killed.
  
• 12 October 2000 – Attack on the USS Cole in the Yemeni port of Aden.
  
• 11 September 2001 – Four planes hijacked and crashed into World Trade Center, The Pentagon and into a field in Shanksville by 19 hijackers. 2,977 killed and over 6,000 injured.^[194]
  
• 13 December 2001 – Suicide attack on Indian parliament in New Delhi by Pakistan-based Islamist terrorist organizations, Jaish-E-Mohammad and Lashkar-e-Toiba. Aimed at eliminating the top leadership of India and causing anarchy in the country. 7 dead, 12 injured.
  
• 27 March 2002 – Suicide bomb attack on a Passover Seder in a Hotel in Netanya, Israel. 30 dead, 133 injured.
  
• 30 March 2002 and 24 November 2002 - Attacks on the Hindu Raghunath temple, India. Total 25 dead.
  
• 24 September 2002 – Machine gun attack on Hindu temple in Ahmedabad, India. 31 dead, 86 injured.^[195][196]
  
• 12 October 2002 – Bombing in Bali nightclub. 202 killed, 300 injured.^[197]
  
• 16 May 2003 – Casablanca Attacks – Four simultaneous attacks in Casablanca killing 33 civilians (mostly Moroccans) carried by Salafia Jihadia.
  
• 11 March 2004 – Multiple bombings on trains near Madrid, Spain. 191 killed, 1460 injured (alleged link to Al-Qaeda).
  
• 1 September 2004 - Beslan school hostage crisis, approximately 344 civilians including 186 children killed.^[198][199]
  
• 2 November 2004 – The murder of Theo van Gogh (film director) by Amsterdam-born jihadist Mohammed Bouyeri.^[200]
  
• 5 July 2005 - Attack at the Hindu Ram temple at Ayodhya, India; one of the most holy sites of Hinduism. 6 dead.
  
• 7 July 2005 – Multiple bombings in London Underground. 53 killed by four suicide bombers. Nearly 700 injured.
  
• 23 July 2005 – Bomb attacks at Sharm el-Sheikh, an Egyptian resort city, at least 64 people killed.
  
• 29 October 2005 – 29 October 2005 Delhi bombings, India. Over 60 killed and over 180 injured in a series of three attacks in crowded markets and a bus, just 2 days before the Diwali festival.^[201]
  
• 9 November 2005 – 2005 Amman bombings. a series of coordinated suicide attacks on hotels in Amman, Jordan. Over 60 killed and 115 injured.^[202][203] Four attackers including a husband and wife team were involved.^[204]
  
• 7 March 2006 – 2006 Varanasi bombings, India. A series of attacks in the Sankath Mochan Hanuman temple and Cantonment Railway Station in the Hindu holy city ofVaranasi. 28 killed and over 100 injured.^[205]
  
• 11 July 2006 – 11 July 2006 Mumbai train bombings, Mumbai, India; a series of seven bomb blasts that took place over a period of 11 minutes on the Suburban Railway in Mumbai. 209 killed and over 700 injured.
  
• 14 August 2007 – Qahtaniya bombings: Four suicide vehicle bombers massacred nearly 800 members of northern Iraq's Yazidi sect in the deadliest Iraq war's attack to date.
  
• 26 July 2008 – 2008 Ahmedabad bombings, India. Islamic terrorists detonate at least 21 explosive devices in the heart of this industrial capital, leaving at least 56 dead and 200 injured. A Muslim group calling itself the Indian Mujahideen claims responsibility. Indian authorities believe that extremists with ties to Pakistan and/or Bangladesh are likely responsible and are intent on inciting communal violence.^[206] Investigation by Indian police led to the eventual arrest of a number of terrorists suspected of carrying out the blasts, most of whom belong to a well-known terrorist group, the Students Islamic Movement of India.^[207]
  
• 13 September 2008 – Bombing series in Delhi, India. Pakistani extremist groups plant bombs at several places including India Gate, out of which the ones at Karol Bagh,Connaught Place and Greater Kailash explode leaving around 30 people dead and 130 injured, followed by another attack two weeks later at the congested Mehrauli area, leaving 3 people dead.
  
• 26 November 2008 – Muslim extremists kill at least 174 people and wound numerous others in a series of coordinated attacks on India's largest city and financial capital,Mumbai. The government of India blamed Pakistan based militant group Lashkar-e-Taiba and stated that the terrorists killed/caught were citizens of Pakistan, a claim which the Pakistani government has refused. Ajmal Kasab, one of the terrorists, was caught alive.^[208][209]
  
• 25 October 2009. Baghdad, Iraq. During a terrorist attack, two bomber vehicles detonated in the Green Zone, killing at least 155 people and injuring 520.
  
• 28 October 2009 – Peshawar, Pakistan. A car bomb is detonated in a woman exclusive shopping district, and over 110 killed and over 200 injured.
  
• 3 December 2009 – Mogadishu, Somalia. A male suicide bomber disguised as a woman detonates in a hotel meeting hall. The hotel was hosting a graduation ceremony for local medical students when the blast went off, killing four government ministers as well as other civilians.^[210]
  
• 1 January 2010 – Lakki Marwat, Pakistan. A suicide car bomber drove his explosive-laden vehicle into a volleyball pitch as people gathered to watch a match killing more than 100 people.^[211]
  
• 1 May 2010 - New York, New York, USA. Faisal Shahzad, an Islamic Pakistani American who received U.S. citizenship in December 2009, attempted to detonate a car bomb inTimes Square working with the Pakistani Taliban or Tehrik-i-Taliban Pakistan.
  
• 13 May 2011 - Tehrik-i-Taliban Pakistan claimed attacks on two mosques simultaneously belonging to the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community, killing nearly 100 and injuring many others.^[212]
  
• 13 July 2011 - Three bombs exploded at different locations in Mumbai, perpetrated by Indian Mujahideen.
  
• 15 April 2013 - Dzhokhar and Tamerlan Tsarnaev set off two pressure cooker bombs at the finish line of the 2013 Boston Marathon and killed three people.
  
• 22 May 2013 - 2 Nigerian men attack and kill British Soldier, Lee Rigby in Woolwich, London, UK.^[213]
  
• 22 September 2013 - 61 civilians, 6 Kenyan soldiers, and 5 attackers die in the Westgate shopping mall attack.
  
• 1 March 2014 Kunming attack - Kunming, China. A group of knife-wielding Uyghur attackers stormed Kunming Railway Station, killing 29 civilians and wounding 143 people. 4 of the attackers were shot dead.
  

confuzzled dude wrote:

Kris wrote:

confuzzled dude wrote:

Kris wrote:
>>I gave you five examples outside the middle east. The West's realpolitik-based moves may well have caused the coming together of the jihadists under a pan-terrorist umbrella, but that does not explain the existence of why they exist altogether. To pretend that they are like run-of-the-mill rebels anywhere else is to ignore the 900 lb. gorilla in the living room i.e. a close-minded world view that has come about due to a mullah-cracy with no sense of modernity and is one bound to archaic ideas of politics and living. This devolution started long, long before Iraq or Israel's establishment or the Balfour declaration. American geopolitics may well be contentious, but there is no one being beheaded or terrorized when questions are raised on that front. The symmetry imagined between the West and the Islamic world is a convenient one, but one that is disingenuous.

The root cause of all those examples you've provided is not the same, they're driven by the sociopolitical situation of each society which varies greatly. You cannot paint all those situations with a broad brush just because they all happen to be practicing islam. In fact you're making a grave mistake by lumping all of them together; each of those issues should be judged on its own merits. If you put all of them in the same country do you think they will co-habitate without any problems. Can you say the same about other religions, the issues of Buddhists in Sri Lanka, Burma and Tibet, are they all the same?

>>>>If they are invoking one holy book and their lifestyle is governed by a set of religious traditions which they see as superior to that of their neighbors and subscribe to a pan-religious identity and they are explicit about it, yes, an assumption of a common root cause is valid.

but almost all of these confrontations have started out as fights for identity & rights before turned into religious wars. Even Syria uprising was peaceful initially or till the regime came down with iron fist. People resort to religion when they think there no chance of them winning and whether or not their tactics are supported by the religion.

Kris wrote:

confuzzled dude wrote:

Kris wrote:

confuzzled dude wrote:

Kris wrote:
>>I gave you five examples outside the middle east. The West's realpolitik-based moves may well have caused the coming together of the jihadists under a pan-terrorist umbrella, but that does not explain the existence of why they exist altogether. To pretend that they are like run-of-the-mill rebels anywhere else is to ignore the 900 lb. gorilla in the living room i.e. a close-minded world view that has come about due to a mullah-cracy with no sense of modernity and is one bound to archaic ideas of politics and living. This devolution started long, long before Iraq or Israel's establishment or the Balfour declaration. American geopolitics may well be contentious, but there is no one being beheaded or terrorized when questions are raised on that front. The symmetry imagined between the West and the Islamic world is a convenient one, but one that is disingenuous.

The root cause of all those examples you've provided is not the same, they're driven by the sociopolitical situation of each society which varies greatly. You cannot paint all those situations with a broad brush just because they all happen to be practicing islam. In fact you're making a grave mistake by lumping all of them together; each of those issues should be judged on its own merits. If you put all of them in the same country do you think they will co-habitate without any problems. Can you say the same about other religions, the issues of Buddhists in Sri Lanka, Burma and Tibet, are they all the same?

>>>>If they are invoking one holy book and their lifestyle is governed by a set of religious traditions which they see as superior to that of their neighbors and subscribe to a pan-religious identity and they are explicit about it, yes, an assumption of a common root cause is valid.

but almost all of these confrontations have started out as fights for identity & rights before turned into religious wars. Even Syria uprising was peaceful initially or till the regime came down with iron fist. People resort to religion when they think there no chance of them winning and whether or not their tactics are supported by the religion.

>>>[b]If that identity is religion-based [b] and requires special accommodation or triggers conflict in terms of co-existence, it goes back to the root cause I referred to. If you are questioning whether or not the tactics are supported by the religion, you are living in big time denial.

Merlot Daruwala wrote:1. Blaming all Islamist violence on Western injustices in the middle east is incorrect and smacks of liberal apologism.

confuzzled dude wrote:

Kris wrote:

confuzzled dude wrote:

Kris wrote:

confuzzled dude wrote:
The root cause of all those examples you've provided is not the same, they're driven by the sociopolitical situation of each society which varies greatly. You cannot paint all those situations with a broad brush just because they all happen to be practicing islam. In fact you're making a grave mistake by lumping all of them together; each of those issues should be judged on its own merits. If you put all of them in the same country do you think they will co-habitate without any problems. Can you say the same about other religions, the issues of Buddhists in Sri Lanka, Burma and Tibet, are they all the same?

>>>>If they are invoking one holy book and their lifestyle is governed by a set of religious traditions which they see as superior to that of their neighbors and subscribe to a pan-religious identity and they are explicit about it, yes, an assumption of a common root cause is valid.

but almost all of these confrontations have started out as fights for identity & rights before turned into religious wars. Even Syria uprising was peaceful initially or till the regime came down with iron fist. People resort to religion when they think there no chance of them winning and whether or not their tactics are supported by the religion.

>>>[b]If that identity is religion-based [b] and requires special accommodation or triggers conflict in terms of co-existence, it goes back to the root cause I referred to. If you are questioning whether or not the tactics are supported by the religion, you are living in big time denial.

Nope it wasn't, it was merely identity crisis. In fact, the problem was created based on the quotes from another holy book which you seem to ignore for whatever reason.

Kris wrote:

confuzzled dude wrote:

Kris wrote:

confuzzled dude wrote:

Kris wrote:
>>>>If they are invoking one holy book and their lifestyle is governed by a set of religious traditions which they see as superior to that of their neighbors and subscribe to a pan-religious identity and they are explicit about it, yes, an assumption of a common root cause is valid.

but almost all of these confrontations have started out as fights for identity & rights before turned into religious wars. Even Syria uprising was peaceful initially or till the regime came down with iron fist. People resort to religion when they think there no chance of them winning and whether or not their tactics are supported by the religion.

>>>[b]If that identity is religion-based [b] and requires special accommodation or triggers conflict in terms of co-existence, it goes back to the root cause I referred to. If you are questioning whether or not the tactics are supported by the religion, you are living in big time denial.

Nope it wasn't, it was merely identity crisis. In fact, the problem was created based on the quotes from another holy book which you seem to ignore for whatever reason.

>>>Are we back to Israel now as the main cause of whatever ails Islamism, be in it Nigeria or Mindanao or the middle east, pre- Israel?

confuzzled dude wrote:

Merlot Daruwala wrote:1. Blaming all Islamist violence on Western injustices in the middle east is incorrect and smacks of liberal apologism.

Sure, but most of it was created by the west, to put it any other way would be gross misrepresentation. See the stats below (from NBC News article)

Look at the fate of Syria now, it became a proxy war between the US and Russia.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/other/how-millions-violent-muslim-deaths-feed-cycle-terrorism-f8C11428977

"An NBC News analysis of data from a variety of sources indicates that more than 4 million Muslims have died in conflicts in Afghanistan, Iraq, Bosnia, Chechnya and elsewhere since 1980. The data, which is imprecise, politically charged and often unverifiable, comes from human rights organizations, academic studies, the U.N. and from groups representing the victims."

"Clearly, though, the U.S. and other non-Muslim nations have contributed to the perception through acts of aggression.

The Soviet invasion and occupation of Afghanistan killed as many as 2.1 million Afghans, including 13.5 percent of the male population, according to U.N. estimates. The U.S.-led wars against Saddam Hussein took a brutal toll on the Iraqi population. Russia killed tens of thousands in Chechnya. Serbian and Croatian forces killed or starved to death hundreds of thousands in Bosnia and Kosovo. Indian forces have killed Muslims in Kashmir."

confuzzled dude wrote:

Kris wrote:

confuzzled dude wrote:

Kris wrote:

confuzzled dude wrote:
but almost all of these confrontations have started out as fights for identity & rights before turned into religious wars. Even Syria uprising was peaceful initially or till the regime came down with iron fist. People resort to religion when they think there no chance of them winning and whether or not their tactics are supported by the religion.

>>>If that identity is religion-based and requires special accommodation or triggers conflict in terms of co-existence, it goes back to the root cause I referred to. If you are questioning whether or not the tactics are supported by the religion, you are living in big time denial.

truthbetold wrote:Cd
Even though it is not a Muslim conflict,  have you heard of rawanda?
Absence of us intervention is resulting in an extended Syrian crisis where a ruler without popular support is crushing its own people.  
Factual error in the above report: violence did not start with us supplying arms. It started with Bahrain and Saudis supplying arms.
Only valid argument in that piece is that Muslim population is more receptive to the radical propaganda that west is the enemy even while killing other Muslim sects.
When west confronted the extremists in Pakistan the support for bin laden dwindled ad shown in the chart in above posts.
You cannot be cowed down by terrorist propaganda and not respond. Absence of action results in Somalia and Sudan.

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:

confuzzled dude wrote:

Merlot Daruwala wrote:1. Blaming all Islamist violence on Western injustices in the middle east is incorrect and smacks of liberal apologism.

Sure, but most of it was created by the west, to put it any other way would be gross misrepresentation. See the stats below (from NBC News article)

Look at the fate of Syria now, it became a proxy war between the US and Russia.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/other/how-millions-violent-muslim-deaths-feed-cycle-terrorism-f8C11428977

"An NBC News analysis of data from a variety of sources indicates that more than 4 million Muslims have died in conflicts in Afghanistan, Iraq, Bosnia, Chechnya and elsewhere since 1980. The data, which is imprecise, politically charged and often unverifiable, comes from human rights organizations, academic studies, the U.N. and from groups representing the victims."

"Clearly, though, the U.S. and other non-Muslim nations have contributed to the perception through acts of aggression.

The Soviet invasion and occupation of Afghanistan killed as many as 2.1 million Afghans, including 13.5 percent of the male population, according to U.N. estimates. The U.S.-led wars against Saddam Hussein took a brutal toll on the Iraqi population. Russia killed tens of thousands in Chechnya. Serbian and Croatian forces killed or starved to death hundreds of thousands in Bosnia and Kosovo. Indian forces have killed Muslims in Kashmir."

1. superpower rivalry existed always in man's history. they get in only when the locals  let them in.  dont blame them 100%.

2. glad the West is reigning in the muslims who have been killing hindus, budhists for a 1000 years when all they did was to invite them into their culture. Muslims have only themselves to blame and i am glad somebody is returning their Koranic medicine.

if you want us to take you seriously and not as another Rasmunullah II, can you first list n acknowledge the atrocities committed by muslims against other religionists  (without excuses) over the last 50 years and the last 1000 years?

confuzzled dude wrote:

truthbetold wrote:Cd
Even though it is not a Muslim conflict,  have you heard of rawanda?
Absence of us intervention is resulting in an extended Syrian crisis where a ruler without popular support is crushing its own people.  
Factual error in the above report: violence did not start with us supplying arms. It started with Bahrain and Saudis supplying arms.
Only valid argument in that piece is that Muslim population is more receptive to the radical propaganda that west is the enemy even while killing other Muslim sects.
When west confronted the extremists in Pakistan the support for bin laden dwindled ad shown in the chart in above posts.
You cannot be cowed down by terrorist propaganda and not respond. Absence of action results in Somalia and Sudan.

How many lives were lost between Rwanda & Congo genocides, 4, 5 or is it 6 million, definitely a huge number. So why is the west showing special interest to middle east not to the other parts of the world.

truthbetold wrote:

confuzzled dude wrote:
How many lives were lost between Rwanda & Congo genocides, 4, 5 or is it 6 million, definitely a huge number. So why is the west showing special interest to middle east not to the other parts of the world.

What is west by your definition? US, Europe ?  Do you include Russia?

confuzzled dude wrote:

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:

confuzzled dude wrote:

Merlot Daruwala wrote:1. Blaming all Islamist violence on Western injustices in the middle east is incorrect and smacks of liberal apologism.

Sure, but most of it was created by the west, to put it any other way would be gross misrepresentation. See the stats below (from NBC News article)

Look at the fate of Syria now, it became a proxy war between the US and Russia.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/other/how-millions-violent-muslim-deaths-feed-cycle-terrorism-f8C11428977

"An NBC News analysis of data from a variety of sources indicates that more than 4 million Muslims have died in conflicts in Afghanistan, Iraq, Bosnia, Chechnya and elsewhere since 1980. The data, which is imprecise, politically charged and often unverifiable, comes from human rights organizations, academic studies, the U.N. and from groups representing the victims."

"Clearly, though, the U.S. and other non-Muslim nations have contributed to the perception through acts of aggression.

The Soviet invasion and occupation of Afghanistan killed as many as 2.1 million Afghans, including 13.5 percent of the male population, according to U.N. estimates. The U.S.-led wars against Saddam Hussein took a brutal toll on the Iraqi population. Russia killed tens of thousands in Chechnya. Serbian and Croatian forces killed or starved to death hundreds of thousands in Bosnia and Kosovo. Indian forces have killed Muslims in Kashmir."

1. superpower rivalry existed always in man's history. they get in only when the locals  let them in.  dont blame them 100%.

2. glad the West is reigning in the muslims who have been killing hindus, budhists for a 1000 years when all they did was to invite them into their culture. Muslims have only themselves to blame and i am glad somebody is returning their Koranic medicine.

if you want us to take you seriously and not as another Rasmunullah II, can you first list n acknowledge the atrocities committed by muslims against other religionists  (without excuses) over the last 50 years and the last 1000 years?

I don't think I've refuted the atrocities committed by muslims, from Aurangzeb to Kashmir. But my main gripe is with you all attributing it all to religion. BTW, the very NBC article that I linked above talks about increased trend in internecine conflict, which is quite contrary to your claims.

truthbetold wrote:You traitor Kris, how can you deny that sunnis of Iraq car bombing shia women is not initiated and inspired by USA ?  Is that not to further the cause of Palestine?

Kris wrote:
>>>Attributing *all* to religion is a straw-man, since in any conflict there are two parties and there is some element of the other side's gripes that triggers the conflict. Sidestepping the religious angle or insisting it has nothing to do with it, when the parties involved make a point of their identity and implied uniqueness, is denial. Israel as the main cause for violent reactions could work for a limited geography and a certain period of time. It cannot be the root cause of the violent clashes in Nigeria or Thailand or a various other places. There are people within the Islamic fold who are starting to ask these pointed questions now. Excusing this away with straw-men arguments and scapegoats is only going to strengthen the hand of the existing religious mindset and its sponsors. Much as America or Israel may be tempting for the main villain's role, the fact remains that this misanthropic mindset preceded both by a very long time.

confuzzled dude wrote:

truthbetold wrote:You traitor Kris, how can you deny that sunnis of Iraq car bombing shia women is not initiated and inspired by USA ?  Is that not to further the cause of Palestine?

How do you categorize Telangana issue? All those participated for their cause and lost their lives were extremists or were they struggling for their identity? Both Andhraites, Telanganites share a lot be it's culture, language or religion yet they wanted their own identity; were not getting along with fellow telugus from other regions and were blaming them for all their problems. Do you see any parallels or not?

confuzzled dude wrote:

Kris wrote:
>>>Attributing *all* to religion is a straw-man, since in any conflict there are two parties and there is some element of the other side's gripes that triggers the conflict. Sidestepping the religious angle or insisting it has nothing to do with it, when the parties involved make a point of their identity and implied uniqueness, is denial. Israel as the main cause for violent reactions could work for a limited geography and a certain period of time. It cannot be the root cause of the violent clashes in Nigeria or Thailand or a various other places. There are people within the Islamic fold who are starting to ask these pointed questions now. Excusing this away with straw-men arguments and scapegoats is only going to strengthen the hand of the existing religious mindset and its sponsors. Much as America or Israel may be tempting for the main villain's role, the fact remains that this misanthropic mindset preceded both by a very long time.

and throwing the holy book as a reason in every other line is called what?

confuzzled dude wrote:
and throwing the holy book as a reason in every other line is called what?

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

truthbetold wrote:Oh! What great purpose is the mention of violent prescriptions in all religions is serving?

isn't it obvious? to make the point that the prescription of violence in a holy book is not unique to islam.

rawemotions wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

truthbetold wrote:Oh! What great purpose is the mention of violent prescriptions in all religions is serving?

isn't it obvious? to make the point that the prescription of violence in a holy book is not unique to islam.

Prescription of violence on Non-believers as a part of the religious dogma is unique to Islam and Christianity. I believe, ancient Jewish scriptures have also had this supremacist dogma (I am not very familiar with it), but do not see it being put into practice of the faith anywhere.
Prescription and practice of violence on other religions and categorization is unique to Islam. 
Restrictive clauses on people converting out of a religion, is unique to Islam.

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:

confuzzled dude wrote:
and throwing the holy book as a reason in every other line is called what?

can you list the terror acts in which the perpetratrs have sworn in the name of Bible, Bhagavad Gita/Garuda Puranam/Manu Sastra, and Koran?

truthbetold wrote:

confuzzled dude wrote:

truthbetold wrote:You traitor Kris, how can you deny that sunnis of Iraq car bombing shia women is not initiated and inspired by USA ?  Is that not to further the cause of Palestine?

How do you categorize Telangana issue? All those participated for their cause and lost their lives were extremists or were they struggling for their identity? Both Andhraites, Telanganites share a lot be it's culture, language or religion yet they wanted their own identity; were not getting along with fellow telugus from other regions and were blaming them for all their problems. Do you see any parallels or not?

So help me understand what role did Usa play between t and seemandhra people?

Kinnera wrote:

rawemotions wrote:

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:

truthbetold wrote:Oh! What great purpose is the mention of violent prescriptions in all religions is serving?

isn't it obvious? to make the point that the prescription of violence in a holy book is not unique to islam.

Prescription of violence on Non-believers as a part of the religious dogma is unique to Islam and Christianity. I believe, ancient Jewish scriptures have also had this supremacist dogma (I am not very familiar with it), but do not see it being put into practice of the faith anywhere.
Prescription and practice of violence on other religions and categorization is unique to Islam. 
Restrictive clauses on people converting out of a religion, is unique to Islam.

Right! That (prescription of violence on non-believers) is limited only to the Abrahamic faiths, not to any of the eastern religions (hinduism, buddhism, jainism, sikhism, taoism, confucianism, etc). The problem with the Abrahamic faiths is the exclusivity of their respective religions: my religion is the one and only true religion, my god is the only true god, my holy book is the only word of god, my religion is the only path to god, etc. It's my way or highway. It's always 'us Vs them'. That causes the rifts and hostilities among ppl.

Ppl who don't see the above are blind, naive, foolish, uninformed or whatever...

Kris wrote:

confuzzled dude wrote:

Kris wrote:
>>>Attributing *all* to religion is a straw-man, since in any conflict there are two parties and there is some element of the other side's gripes that triggers the conflict. Sidestepping the religious angle or insisting it has nothing to do with it, when the parties involved make a point of their identity and implied uniqueness, is denial. Israel as the main cause for violent reactions could work for a limited geography and a certain period of time. It cannot be the root cause of the violent clashes in Nigeria or Thailand or a various other places. There are people within the Islamic fold who are starting to ask these pointed questions now. Excusing this away with straw-men arguments and scapegoats is only going to strengthen the hand of the existing religious mindset and its sponsors. Much as America or Israel may be tempting for the main villain's role, the fact remains that this misanthropic mindset preceded both by a very long time.

and throwing the holy book as a reason in every other line is called what?

>>>I am confused here. You are making my point. 'Throwing their holy book' in as the reason for the conflicts around the world and through a long historic time fame is exactly what I citing as my basis , which you are insisting should not be an issue.

confuzzled dude wrote:

truthbetold wrote:

confuzzled dude wrote:

truthbetold wrote:You traitor Kris, how can you deny that sunnis of Iraq car bombing shia women is not initiated and inspired by USA ?  Is that not to further the cause of Palestine?

How do you categorize Telangana issue? All those participated for their cause and lost their lives were extremists or were they struggling for their identity? Both Andhraites, Telanganites share a lot be it's culture, language or religion yet they wanted their own identity; were not getting along with fellow telugus from other regions and were blaming them for all their problems. Do you see any parallels or not?

So help me understand what role did Usa play between t and seemandhra people?

Perhaps lack of USA's role is what prevented it from taking religious-sectarian route, remember, a few SuCH members penned Telangana Talli songs and had wonderful things to say about her. Seriously though what part of my argument about "identity crisis" requires me help you understand the similarities or the differences.

truthbetold wrote:

confuzzled dude wrote:

truthbetold wrote:

confuzzled dude wrote:

truthbetold wrote:You traitor Kris, how can you deny that sunnis of Iraq car bombing shia women is not initiated and inspired by USA ?  Is that not to further the cause of Palestine?

How do you categorize Telangana issue? All those participated for their cause and lost their lives were extremists or were they struggling for their identity? Both Andhraites, Telanganites share a lot be it's culture, language or religion yet they wanted their own identity; were not getting along with fellow telugus from other regions and were blaming them for all their problems. Do you see any parallels or not?

So help me understand what role did Usa play between t and seemandhra people?

Perhaps lack of USA's role is what prevented it from taking religious-sectarian route, remember, a few SuCH members penned Telangana Talli songs and had wonderful things to say about her. Seriously though what part of my argument about "identity crisis" requires me help you understand the similarities or the differences.

Cd

You brought T issue into this discussion. I did not.  My post is about shias and sunnis and USA involvement in their violence. If you want to explain that situation using T issue it is your choice.  You wrote some stuff and asked me to make an irrelevant comparison. I am just trying to bring the discussion back to the issue of USA role. 

Explain what role does usa have in shia sunni conflict?

confuzzled dude wrote:

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:

confuzzled dude wrote:
and throwing the holy book as a reason in every other line is called what?

can you list the terror acts in which the perpetratrs have sworn in the name of Bible, Bhagavad Gita/Garuda Puranam/Manu Sastra, and Koran?

Where do you want me start, the one happened in your own backyard a couple of weeks ago or the Wisconsin Sikh killings or KKK or the dot-busters?

truthbetold wrote:Cd
Islam is just an idea. So who bears the responsibility?  The people who follow that religion and those who live in those neighborhoods. Muslim masses have a responsibility to snuff out the aggressive and terrorist islam. The idea that we have a grouse and we will act out (as thuggery or terrorism) is different from we have a problem and we will offer resistance to oppression. 

confuzzled dude wrote:

truthbetold wrote:Cd
Islam is just an idea. So who bears the responsibility?  The people who follow that religion and those who live in those neighborhoods. Muslim masses have a responsibility to snuff out the aggressive and terrorist islam. The idea that we have a grouse and we will act out (as thuggery or terrorism) is different from we have a problem and we will offer resistance to oppression. 

Following this very logic, I've posed this question in another thread, were there huge processions/outrage condemning LTTE in TN or Tamil diaspora ?

confuzzled dude wrote:

truthbetold wrote:Cd
Islam is just an idea. So who bears the responsibility?  The people who follow that religion and those who live in those neighborhoods. Muslim masses have a responsibility to snuff out the aggressive and terrorist islam. The idea that we have a grouse and we will act out (as thuggery or terrorism) is different from we have a problem and we will offer resistance to oppression. 

Following this very logic, I've posed this question in another thread, were there huge processions/outrage condemning LTTE in TN or Tamil diaspora ?

confuzzled dude wrote:

Kris wrote:

confuzzled dude wrote:

Kris wrote:
>>>Attributing *all* to religion is a straw-man, since in any conflict there are two parties and there is some element of the other side's gripes that triggers the conflict. Sidestepping the religious angle or insisting it has nothing to do with it, when the parties involved make a point of their identity and implied uniqueness, is denial. Israel as the main cause for violent reactions could work for a limited geography and a certain period of time. It cannot be the root cause of the violent clashes in Nigeria or Thailand or a various other places. There are people within the Islamic fold who are starting to ask these pointed questions now. Excusing this away with straw-men arguments and scapegoats is only going to strengthen the hand of the existing religious mindset and its sponsors. Much as America or Israel may be tempting for the main villain's role, the fact remains that this misanthropic mindset preceded both by a very long time.

and throwing the holy book as a reason in every other line is called what?

>>>I am confused here. You are making my point. 'Throwing their holy book' in as the reason for the conflicts around the world and through a long historic time fame is exactly what I citing as my basis , which you are insisting should not be an issue.

Let me rephrase it; If not attributing every single issue in the muslim world to religion is foolish then suggesting every confrontation that takes place as swearing on the holy book is equally naive.