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JFK and the fight against regionalism
by Guest Wed Aug 10, 2011 7:13 pm
In his book 'Profiles in Courage', the late american president John F. Kennedy describes the actions of several U.S. senators which were exemplary because they were courageous, far sighted, and correct. One strong theme that runs through the book is JFK's deep dislike for any kind of regionalism and regional chauvinism. For instance:
--> JFK gives examples of american senators who fought for developing regions in America (for instance laying power lines) more than a thousand miles away from their home state. In other words, they put their country first rather than their region first.
--> JFK quotes and applauds Daniel Webster's famous Seventh March Speech. The first lines of this speech is as follows:
Mr. President, -I wish to speak to-day, not as a Massachusetts man, nor as a Northern man, but as an American, and
a member of the Senate of the United States.
http://www.dartmouth.edu/~dwebster/speeches/seventh-march.html
--> This speech, it should be remembered, was given at a time when the southern states in the U.S. were under the grip of a strong wave of regionalism and there were many proponents of secession of the southern states in america from the north. The speech tried to promote unity of the nation by infusing a sense of nationalism in everyone in America.
--> Prior to the American Civil war, several senators from the southern states in America had voted to keep the the country together rather than for the southern states to split off. They did this in spite of the majority popular opinion of the time, in the southern american states, being in favor of secession. For this act of 'treachery' these senators who were for the country's unity lost their senate seats and their political careers were over. Never the less, they are remembered even today by patriotic and knowledegable americans for their act of courage and for doing the right thing.
--> Any kind of regionalism and regional chauvinism is a kind of poison as far as the unity and integrity of a country is concerned.
--> JFK gives examples of american senators who fought for developing regions in America (for instance laying power lines) more than a thousand miles away from their home state. In other words, they put their country first rather than their region first.
--> JFK quotes and applauds Daniel Webster's famous Seventh March Speech. The first lines of this speech is as follows:
Mr. President, -I wish to speak to-day, not as a Massachusetts man, nor as a Northern man, but as an American, and
a member of the Senate of the United States.
http://www.dartmouth.edu/~dwebster/speeches/seventh-march.html
--> This speech, it should be remembered, was given at a time when the southern states in the U.S. were under the grip of a strong wave of regionalism and there were many proponents of secession of the southern states in america from the north. The speech tried to promote unity of the nation by infusing a sense of nationalism in everyone in America.
--> Prior to the American Civil war, several senators from the southern states in America had voted to keep the the country together rather than for the southern states to split off. They did this in spite of the majority popular opinion of the time, in the southern american states, being in favor of secession. For this act of 'treachery' these senators who were for the country's unity lost their senate seats and their political careers were over. Never the less, they are remembered even today by patriotic and knowledegable americans for their act of courage and for doing the right thing.
--> Any kind of regionalism and regional chauvinism is a kind of poison as far as the unity and integrity of a country is concerned.
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Re: JFK and the fight against regionalism
by Guest Wed Aug 10, 2011 7:23 pm
It will be argued that Webster's efforts to preserve the unity of the country failed. After all, only 11 years after this seventh of march speech, the american civil war broke out. but this would be a naive opinion.
what the efforts of people like Webster did is that it delayed the onset of the civil war. And with the North becoming more and more industrialized (the southern states having an agricultural economy), it tilted the end result in favor of the North. If the civil war would have taken place one or two decades earlier, it is possible there would have been a separate country comprising the southern states of present day america.
what the efforts of people like Webster did is that it delayed the onset of the civil war. And with the North becoming more and more industrialized (the southern states having an agricultural economy), it tilted the end result in favor of the North. If the civil war would have taken place one or two decades earlier, it is possible there would have been a separate country comprising the southern states of present day america.
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Re: JFK and the fight against regionalism
by MaxEntropy_Man Wed Aug 10, 2011 7:34 pm
i have two comments.
it is naive for you to think that american democracy works this way today. legislators are rewarded or punished for what they do for their state more so than anything else.
secondly what was applicable in the civil war era in the US has no relevance for contemporary india. different era AND different country.
it is naive for you to think that american democracy works this way today. legislators are rewarded or punished for what they do for their state more so than anything else.
secondly what was applicable in the civil war era in the US has no relevance for contemporary india. different era AND different country.
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Re: JFK and the fight against regionalism
by Guest Wed Aug 10, 2011 7:44 pm
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:i have two comments.
it is naive for you to think that american democracy works this way today. legislators are rewarded or punished for what they do for their state more so than anything else.
secondly what was applicable in the civil war era in the US has no relevance for contemporary india. different era AND different country.
--> you failed to note the point JFK was making. The point is that despite the pro unity southern senators knowing that their vote to preserve the unity of the country would result in the end of their political careers, because the popular opinion in their electorates was for secession, they still went ahead and did the right thing by putting their country first rather than their region first.
--> secondly, the phenomenon of regionalism and regional chauvinism is something that has occurred in different eras and in different countries. so it is wrong to say that the comparison is unjustified.
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Re: JFK and the fight against regionalism
by Guest Wed Aug 10, 2011 7:46 pm
if there is ever a popular uprising in uttar pradesh for secession, i would support any action taken by the central govt. to crush such an uprising. the reason is that for me my country comes first.
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Re: JFK and the fight against regionalism
by MaxEntropy_Man Wed Aug 10, 2011 7:52 pm
Rashmun wrote:
--> secondly, the phenomenon of regionalism and regional chauvinism is something that has occurred in different eras and in different countries. so it is wrong to say that the comparison is unjustified.
the only regional chauvinism i find in india today is northindian chauvinists like yourself trying to impose your language in regions of the country where despite your desperate claims to prove otherwise, it is not wanted by the majority. so maybe you should listen to webster yourself and not be a regional chauvinist.
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Re: JFK and the fight against regionalism
by MaxEntropy_Man Wed Aug 10, 2011 7:54 pm
Rashmun wrote: the reason is that for me my country comes first.
and therein lies the difference. for me democratic values and the freedom of the individual comes first and foremost. since you seem to like looking to the US for political ideals, maybe you should also consider carefully the high value the US places on individual freedom.
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Re: JFK and the fight against regionalism
by MaxEntropy_Man Wed Aug 10, 2011 7:59 pm
Rashmun wrote:if there is ever a popular uprising in uttar pradesh for secession, i would support any action taken by the central govt. to crush such an uprising. the reason is that for me my country comes first.
this is a non sequitur. there is no movement for secession in TN. we can't secede from ourselves, we being the original indians. having strident opinions against hindi imposition is not the same thing as a desire to secede from the union.
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Re: JFK and the fight against regionalism
by Guest Wed Aug 10, 2011 7:59 pm
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:Rashmun wrote:
--> secondly, the phenomenon of regionalism and regional chauvinism is something that has occurred in different eras and in different countries. so it is wrong to say that the comparison is unjustified.
the only regional chauvinism i find in india today is northindian chauvinists like yourself trying to impose your language in regions of the country where despite your desperate claims to prove otherwise, it is not wanted by the majority. so maybe you should listen to webster yourself and not be a regional chauvinist.
--> do you accept the existence of the hindi dialect dakhini existing in South India or not? why are you so keen to ignore the existence of the southern indian language Dakhini ?
---
Later, I
realized that Hindi or Hindavi or Urdu or Dakhini had a great flowering
in the South much before it reached it high level of sophistication in
Delhi, Agra, and Lucknow. In was in the Deccan that this language
found state patronage in the 14th, 15th, and 16th centuries. Golconda,
Bijapur, Bidar, Gulbarga, the breakaway Sultanates of the Deccan and,
later, Mysore under Hyder Ali and Tipu, patronized this language. The
first ruler and founder of Hyderabad, Quli Qutub Shah, composed love
lyrics in it. The language that I had learned from drivers, watchmen,
and malis was, after all, a noble tongue...
I think the future of Hindi, in spite of what the Government is doing
or not doing, is bright. In my travels across India, I find that it is
Hindi which is used as a link language, whether it is in Shillong or
Port Blair. Even in Tamil Nadu, strangers have come up to me to speak
in Hindi even though I normally would avoid using the language on my
own. This has happened to me so often that I am convinced that the
image of the Hindi-hating Tamilian is grossly untrue. Yes, there is a
politicization of the language issue, but the common people of Tamil
Nadu, I feel reasonably sure, love Hindi. Not just that, whether in
Chennai or Madurai, in Trichy or Coimbatore, Hindi is spoken by
surprisingly large numbers of people. Hindi is also heard in Colombo,
Singapore, Kuala Lumpur and Jakarta, not to speak of London, Paris,
Moscow, Tokyo, New York, and Toronto. In Pakistan and in Bangladesh
large sections of the population understand Hindi. After all, Hindi and
Urdu are sister languages. In Nepal, Hindi is widely understood
because it is so similar to Nepali. Calcutta has a huge Hindi speaking
population. Hindi is also the lingua franca of Mumbai and Hyderabad.
So, Hindi is widely spoken and used in all our metros, from Amritsar to
Thiruvananthapuram.
Though this essay has been mainly a narrative, it does have an
implicit argument. The argument is that Hindi belongs to the vibhashis
as mucha as it does to the Hindi-wallah. In the last hundred years,
it has been promoted by a whole host of protagonists, from Dayanand
Saraswati, Mahatama Gandhi, and Vinoba to Pandurang Shastri Athavale,
Satya Sai Baba, and Asaram Bapu. Hindi is not just the language of film
songs, but also of bhajans all over India. Non-native speakers have
written nearly half of the best literature of Hindi. Not just Ajneya,
Ashak, Muktibodh, Sahani,Vaid, Sobti, and so on, but a whole nation of
Punjabis, Gujaratis, Maharashtrians, Bengalis, Oriyas, and, indeed
people from every corner of the land, have enriched and contributed to
the language.
http://www.makarand.com/acad/HindiHainHum.htm
Last edited by Rashmun on Wed Aug 10, 2011 8:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: JFK and the fight against regionalism
by Guest Wed Aug 10, 2011 8:02 pm
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:Rashmun wrote:if there is ever a popular uprising in uttar pradesh for secession, i would support any action taken by the central govt. to crush such an uprising. the reason is that for me my country comes first.
this is a non sequitur. there is no movement for secession in TN. we can't secede from ourselves, we being the original indians. having strident opinions against hindi imposition is not the same thing as a desire to secede from the union.
The movement for Dravida Nadu was at its height from 1940s to 1960s, but due to fears of Tamil hegemony, it failed to find any support outside Tamil Nadu. The States Reorganisation Act 1956, which created linguistic States, weakened the demand further.[6][7] During the same time, the ruling Nehru regime declared secessionism
as an illegal act. Consequently, Tamil politicians were forced to
abandon the claim for Dravida Nadu - now geographically limited to
modern Tamil Nadu - completely in 1963.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dravida_Nadu
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Re: JFK and the fight against regionalism
by MaxEntropy_Man Wed Aug 10, 2011 8:14 pm
rashmun i neither have the patience or motivation to go over dakhni etc. for the seventeen thousand and fifteenth time with you (anyway this is more carvaka's speed), but the 60s are long gone. there is no desire for any such secessionist movement in TN today with the exception of one person, kayalvizhi that is. and the reason for that is that the central government long ago abandoned the move to impose hindi. just live and let live.
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Re: JFK and the fight against regionalism
by Guest Wed Aug 10, 2011 8:44 pm
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:rashmun i neither have the patience or motivation to go over dakhni etc. for the seventeen thousand and fifteenth time with you (anyway this is more carvaka's speed), but the 60s are long gone. there is no desire for any such secessionist movement in TN today with the exception of one person, kayalvizhi that is. and the reason for that is that the central government long ago abandoned the move to impose hindi. just live and let live.
--> what about the need for having a link language in a country as diverse as India?
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Re: JFK and the fight against regionalism
by MaxEntropy_Man Wed Aug 10, 2011 8:58 pm
Rashmun wrote:
--> what about the need for having a link language in a country as diverse as India?
for the umpteenth time i see no such need and if there ever arises one, we already have one -- the language in which you and i are already communicating.
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Re: JFK and the fight against regionalism
by charvaka Wed Aug 10, 2011 9:08 pm
It is raining non sequiturs in here today.
Apropos the original post: https://such.forumotion.com/t2562-who-would-you-like-to-see-in-power-in-india
Who would you like to see in power in India?
Congress led alliance
33% [ 2 ]BJP led alliance 16% [ 1 ]an alliance of non-Congress, non-BJP regional parties 50% [ 3 ] Total Votes : 6
Apropos the original post: https://such.forumotion.com/t2562-who-would-you-like-to-see-in-power-in-india
Who would you like to see in power in India?
Congress led alliance
33% [ 2 ]BJP led alliance 16% [ 1 ]an alliance of non-Congress, non-BJP regional parties 50% [ 3 ] Total Votes : 6What about the need for straightening out the tails of all stray dogs in India?Rashmun wrote:what about the need for having a link language in a country as diverse as India?
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Re: JFK and the fight against regionalism
by Guest Wed Aug 10, 2011 10:20 pm
charvaka wrote:It is raining non sequiturs in here today.
Apropos the original post: https://such.forumotion.com/t2562-who-would-you-like-to-see-in-power-in-india
Who would you like to see in power in India?
Congress led alliance
-->it is truly strange to see Charvaka getting so excited about a poll in which 6 people cast their votes.
--> Sure. starting from Telangana.Charvaka wrote:What about the need for straightening out the tails of all stray dogs in India?Rashmun wrote:what about the need for having a link language in a country as diverse as India?
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Re: JFK and the fight against regionalism
by charvaka Thu Aug 11, 2011 1:24 am
I will tell you what is stranger... you running away from a poll you conducted because the results weren't to your liking. Kinda like how you deleted a poll asking whether you should be banned, because you voted for banning yourself!Rashmun wrote:it is truly strange to see Charvaka getting so excited about a poll in which 6 people cast their votes.
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Re: JFK and the fight against regionalism
by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Thu Aug 11, 2011 2:08 am
Rashmun wrote:MaxEntropy_Man wrote:Rashmun wrote:
--> secondly, the phenomenon of regionalism and regional chauvinism is something that has occurred in different eras and in different countries. so it is wrong to say that the comparison is unjustified.
the only regional chauvinism i find in india today is northindian chauvinists like yourself trying to impose your language in regions of the country where despite your desperate claims to prove otherwise, it is not wanted by the majority. so maybe you should listen to webster yourself and not be a regional chauvinist.
--> do you accept the existence of the hindi dialect dakhini existing in South India or not? why are you so keen to ignore the existence of the southern indian language Dakhini ?
[/size]
http://www.makarand.com/acad/HindiHainHum.htm
Aaahhhhhhhhhhhh...there you go again... somehow brought your own thread back to your own naarthie agenda of Hindi imposition.
Did JFK know about Dhakini ? or for that matter did Akbar know about it ?
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Re: JFK and the fight against regionalism
by Guest Thu Aug 11, 2011 8:08 am
charvaka wrote:I will tell you what is stranger... you running away from a poll you conducted because the results weren't to your liking. Kinda like how you deleted a poll asking whether you should be banned, because you voted for banning yourself!Rashmun wrote:it is truly strange to see Charvaka getting so excited about a poll in which 6 people cast their votes.
--> the results of any poll in which only 6 people cast their votes is not to be taken seriously. it does not matter if the poll was conducted by me. The results of this poll are far more credible:
http://ibnlive.in.com/news/manmohan-out-of-favour-rahul-top-choice-for-pm/174049-37-64.html
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Re: JFK and the fight against regionalism
by charvaka Thu Aug 11, 2011 8:51 am
Why are you so happy about a poll whose results go against your own stated preferences? Is that because your stated preferences were not really your actual preferences?
https://such.forumotion.com/t2454-if-sonia-s-days-are-numbered#21055
https://such.forumotion.com/t2454-if-sonia-s-days-are-numbered#21055
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Re: JFK and the fight against regionalism
by Guest Thu Aug 11, 2011 8:53 am
charvaka wrote:Why are you so happy about a poll whose results go against your own stated preferences? Is that because your stated preferences were not really your actual preferences?
https://such.forumotion.com/t2454-if-sonia-s-days-are-numbered#21055
--> as i have mentioned, a poll in which only 6 people voted cannot be taken seriously.
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Re: JFK and the fight against regionalism
by charvaka Thu Aug 11, 2011 8:54 am
I am talking about the poll saying Rahul should be next PM. You stated that you would prefer a "non-Gandhi" for PM. So why are you touting that poll that goes against your own preferences? Is that because your stated preference for a non-Gandhi PM is not your actual preference?
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Re: JFK and the fight against regionalism
by Guest Thu Aug 11, 2011 8:58 am
charvaka wrote:I am talking about the poll saying Rahul should be next PM. You stated that you would prefer a "non-Gandhi" for PM. So why are you touting that poll that goes against your own preferences? Is that because your stated preference for a non-Gandhi PM is not your actual preference?
--> my personal preference is irrelevant when it comes to who should be the next PM after Manmohan. in a democracy, the majority opinion counts.
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Re: JFK and the fight against regionalism
by Guest Thu Aug 11, 2011 9:01 am
Rashmun wrote:charvaka wrote:I am talking about the poll saying Rahul should be next PM. You stated that you would prefer a "non-Gandhi" for PM. So why are you touting that poll that goes against your own preferences? Is that because your stated preference for a non-Gandhi PM is not your actual preference?
--> my personal preference is irrelevant when it comes to who should be the next PM after Manmohan. in a democracy, the majority opinion counts.
--> the person who conducted the CNN-IBN poll--Yogendra Yadava--is a very respected psephologist. 18,000 respondents across 20 Indian states had participated in his poll.
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Re: JFK and the fight against regionalism
by Guest Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:18 am
I have heard something said about allegiance to the South. I know no
South, no North, no East, no West, to which I owe any allegiance... The
Union, sir, is my country.
--Senator Henry Clay of Kentucky, in a senate speech in 1848.
-----
Abraham Lincoln called Clay 'my beau ideal of a statesman'.
http://showcase.netins.net/web/creative/lincoln/speeches/clay.htm
South, no North, no East, no West, to which I owe any allegiance... The
Union, sir, is my country.
--Senator Henry Clay of Kentucky, in a senate speech in 1848.
-----
Abraham Lincoln called Clay 'my beau ideal of a statesman'.
http://showcase.netins.net/web/creative/lincoln/speeches/clay.htm
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Similar topics» Further Thoughts on Regionalism
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» Regionalism gone berserk?
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