The Economist explains: Why are Indian Muslims so moderate?

goodcitizn wrote:From your link:

And yet India’s Muslims, almost across the board, have remained moderate, tolerant, quick to condemn religious violence and ready to engage members of other religions. The contrast with the sectarian bloodletting, growing radicalism and deepening conservatism in Pakistan next door, for example, is striking.

Definitely more moderate than the Pakistanis.

I have had experiences with muslims in Tamil Nadu. My friends in school and my car driver at home while growing up were saaibus as the muslims were called then. I am not sure if Tamil Nadu muslims are unique but they have been quite friendly and decent in my interactions with them. However I have never heard them criticize or condemn muslim terrorists or terror groups in India.

Rashmun wrote:

goodcitizn wrote:From your link:

And yet India’s Muslims, almost across the board, have remained moderate, tolerant, quick to condemn religious violence and ready to engage members of other religions. The contrast with the sectarian bloodletting, growing radicalism and deepening conservatism in Pakistan next door, for example, is striking.

Definitely more moderate than the Pakistanis.

I have had experiences with muslims in Tamil Nadu. My friends in school and my car driver at home while growing up were saaibus as the muslims were called then. I am not sure if Tamil Nadu muslims are unique but they have been quite friendly and decent in my interactions with them. However I have never heard them criticize or condemn muslim terrorists or terror groups in India.

I've met two interesting people at work--a Pakistani Muslim ( PM) and a Kashmiri Muslim ( KM). I find both of them to be decent people and as is my habit I discussed philosophy and religion with them individually. They are both Sunnis, but the KM is obviously more moderate. Now there is one very easy test for whether you are a moderate Muslim or not if you are Muslim from the Indian subcontinent. This test is applicable to Sunni Muslims who constitute perhaps 90% or more of South Asia's Muslims. The test is: if you are a Sunni Muslim,  are you a barelvi Muslim or a deobandi Muslim?  If you are a barelvi Muslim it means you are a liberal while if you are deobandi it would signal that you are extreme in your religious beliefs.

In the case of my colleagues, KM is a barelvi Muslim;  while PM claims he is neither deobandi nor barelvi but when you pin PM down in a religious/philosophical discussion he starts articulating the views of a deobandi. So effectively PM is a deobandi though he may claim he is not.
PM was saying that there are more barelvis than deobandis in Pakistan. He estimated the percentages to be 60-40. To the best of my knowledge, the percentage is skewed much more in favor of barelvis in India. I think it could be 90-10  or 85-15, something like that. The exact statistical figures need to be investigated further.

Deobandis claim that Barelvis are not really Muslims, while Barelvis denounce deobandis for being extremists.

Rashmun wrote:

goodcitizn wrote:From your link:

And yet India’s Muslims, almost across the board, have remained moderate, tolerant, quick to condemn religious violence and ready to engage members of other religions. The contrast with the sectarian bloodletting, growing radicalism and deepening conservatism in Pakistan next door, for example, is striking.

Definitely more moderate than the Pakistanis.

I have had experiences with muslims in Tamil Nadu. My friends in school and my car driver at home while growing up were saaibus as the muslims were called then. I am not sure if Tamil Nadu muslims are unique but they have been quite friendly and decent in my interactions with them. However I have never heard them criticize or condemn muslim terrorists or terror groups in India.

I've met two interesting people at work--a Pakistani Muslim ( PM) and a Kashmiri Muslim ( KM). I find both of them to be decent people and as is my habit I discussed philosophy and religion with them individually. They are both Sunnis, but the KM is obviously more moderate. Now there is one very easy test for whether you are a moderate Muslim or not if you are Muslim from the Indian subcontinent. This test is applicable to Sunni Muslims who constitute perhaps 90% or more of South Asia's Muslims. The test is: if you are a Sunni Muslim,  are you a barelvi Muslim or a deobandi Muslim?  If you are a barelvi Muslim it means you are a liberal while if you are deobandi it would signal that you are extreme in your religious beliefs.

In the case of my colleagues, KM is a barelvi Muslim;  while PM claims he is neither deobandi nor barelvi but when you pin PM down in a religious/philosophical discussion he starts articulating the views of a deobandi. So effectively PM is a deobandi though he may claim he is not.
PM was saying that there are more barelvis than deobandis in Pakistan. He estimated the percentages to be 60-40. To the best of my knowledge, the percentage is skewed much more in favor of barelvis in India. I think it could be 90-10  or 85-15, something like that. The exact statistical figures need to be investigated further.

Deobandis claim that Barelvis are not really Muslims, while Barelvis denounce deobandis for being extremists.

goodcitizn wrote:From your link:

And yet India’s Muslims, almost across the board, have remained moderate, tolerant, quick to condemn religious violence and ready to engage members of other religions. The contrast with the sectarian bloodletting, growing radicalism and deepening conservatism in Pakistan next door, for example, is striking.

Definitely more moderate than the Pakistanis.

I have had experiences with muslims in Tamil Nadu. My friends in school and my car driver at home while growing up were saaibus as the muslims were called then. I am not sure if Tamil Nadu muslims are unique but they have been quite friendly and decent in my interactions with them. However I have never heard them criticize or condemn muslim terrorists or terror groups in India.

swapna wrote:

goodcitizn wrote:From your link:

And yet India’s Muslims, almost across the board, have remained moderate, tolerant, quick to condemn religious violence and ready to engage members of other religions. The contrast with the sectarian bloodletting, growing radicalism and deepening conservatism in Pakistan next door, for example, is striking.

Definitely more moderate than the Pakistanis.

I have had experiences with muslims in Tamil Nadu. My friends in school and my car driver at home while growing up were saaibus as the muslims were called then. I am not sure if Tamil Nadu muslims are unique but they have been quite friendly and decent in my interactions with them. However I have never heard them criticize or condemn muslim terrorists or terror groups in India.

Amazing! It's pure genius that allows you to know that indian muslims are "definitely" more moderate than Pakistanis.

goodcitizn wrote:From your link:

And yet India’s Muslims, almost across the board, have remained moderate, tolerant, quick to condemn religious violence and ready to engage members of other religions. The contrast with the sectarian bloodletting, growing radicalism and deepening conservatism in Pakistan next door, for example, is striking.

Definitely more moderate than the Pakistanis.

I have had experiences with muslims in Tamil Nadu. My friends in school and my car driver at home while growing up were saaibus as the muslims were called then. I am not sure if Tamil Nadu muslims are unique but they have been quite friendly and decent in my interactions with them. However I have never heard them criticize or condemn muslim terrorists or terror groups in India.

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:

swapna wrote:

goodcitizn wrote:From your link:

And yet India’s Muslims, almost across the board, have remained moderate, tolerant, quick to condemn religious violence and ready to engage members of other religions. The contrast with the sectarian bloodletting, growing radicalism and deepening conservatism in Pakistan next door, for example, is striking.

Definitely more moderate than the Pakistanis.

I have had experiences with muslims in Tamil Nadu. My friends in school and my car driver at home while growing up were saaibus as the muslims were called then. I am not sure if Tamil Nadu muslims are unique but they have been quite friendly and decent in my interactions with them. However I have never heard them criticize or condemn muslim terrorists or terror groups in India.

Amazing! It's pure genius that allows you to know that indian muslims are "definitely" more moderate than Pakistanis.

It is all relative....

who is a worse criminal or more intolerant: A jehadi lover? A Kaboomer? a throat slitter, or a a muslim who does not sing Vande Mataram....

Kris wrote:

goodcitizn wrote:From your link:

And yet India’s Muslims, almost across the board, have remained moderate, tolerant, quick to condemn religious violence and ready to engage members of other religions. The contrast with the sectarian bloodletting, growing radicalism and deepening conservatism in Pakistan next door, for example, is striking.

Definitely more moderate than the Pakistanis.

I have had experiences with muslims in Tamil Nadu. My friends in school and my car driver at home while growing up were saaibus as the muslims were called then. I am not sure if Tamil Nadu muslims are unique but they have been quite friendly and decent in my interactions with them. However I have never heard them criticize or condemn muslim terrorists or terror groups in India.

>>>The could be due to Pakistan becoming more and more radicalized. There is the need to assert and re-assert the Islamic nature of the country to differentiate itself from India which pull it in that direction. The second aspect is the economic condition, which is nothing to write home about. Idle minds, devil's workshop etc. With regard to the lower middle class and poor muslim youth demographic in India, this should be instructive. It won't be enough to clamp down on the law and order front, if the economy goes south and these guys feel like they have nothing at stake.

goodcitizn wrote:

Rashmun wrote:

goodcitizn wrote:From your link:

And yet India’s Muslims, almost across the board, have remained moderate, tolerant, quick to condemn religious violence and ready to engage members of other religions. The contrast with the sectarian bloodletting, growing radicalism and deepening conservatism in Pakistan next door, for example, is striking.

Definitely more moderate than the Pakistanis.

I have had experiences with muslims in Tamil Nadu. My friends in school and my car driver at home while growing up were saaibus as the muslims were called then. I am not sure if Tamil Nadu muslims are unique but they have been quite friendly and decent in my interactions with them. However I have never heard them criticize or condemn muslim terrorists or terror groups in India.

I've met two interesting people at work--a Pakistani Muslim ( PM) and a Kashmiri Muslim ( KM). I find both of them to be decent people and as is my habit I discussed philosophy and religion with them individually. They are both Sunnis, but the KM is obviously more moderate. Now there is one very easy test for whether you are a moderate Muslim or not if you are Muslim from the Indian subcontinent. This test is applicable to Sunni Muslims who constitute perhaps 90% or more of South Asia's Muslims. The test is: if you are a Sunni Muslim,  are you a barelvi Muslim or a deobandi Muslim?  If you are a barelvi Muslim it means you are a liberal while if you are deobandi it would signal that you are extreme in your religious beliefs.

In the case of my colleagues, KM is a barelvi Muslim;  while PM claims he is neither deobandi nor barelvi but when you pin PM down in a religious/philosophical discussion he starts articulating the views of a deobandi. So effectively PM is a deobandi though he may claim he is not.
PM was saying that there are more barelvis than deobandis in Pakistan. He estimated the percentages to be 60-40. To the best of my knowledge, the percentage is skewed much more in favor of barelvis in India. I think it could be 90-10  or 85-15, something like that. The exact statistical figures need to be investigated further.

Deobandis claim that Barelvis are not really Muslims, while Barelvis denounce deobandis for being extremists.

Interesting read.

I have never heard of barelvis and deobandis in Tamil Nadu. Perhaps there are some Tamil names equivalent to them. I'll check with our driver the next time I visit India.

swapna wrote:

goodcitizn wrote:From your link:

And yet India’s Muslims, almost across the board, have remained moderate, tolerant, quick to condemn religious violence and ready to engage members of other religions. The contrast with the sectarian bloodletting, growing radicalism and deepening conservatism in Pakistan next door, for example, is striking.

Definitely more moderate than the Pakistanis.

I have had experiences with muslims in Tamil Nadu. My friends in school and my car driver at home while growing up were saaibus as the muslims were called then. I am not sure if Tamil Nadu muslims are unique but they have been quite friendly and decent in my interactions with them. However I have never heard them criticize or condemn muslim terrorists or terror groups in India.

Amazing! It's pure genius that allows you to know that indian muslims are "definitely" more moderate than Pakistanis.

confuzzled dude wrote:

Kris wrote:

goodcitizn wrote:From your link:

And yet India’s Muslims, almost across the board, have remained moderate, tolerant, quick to condemn religious violence and ready to engage members of other religions. The contrast with the sectarian bloodletting, growing radicalism and deepening conservatism in Pakistan next door, for example, is striking.

Definitely more moderate than the Pakistanis.

I have had experiences with muslims in Tamil Nadu. My friends in school and my car driver at home while growing up were saaibus as the muslims were called then. I am not sure if Tamil Nadu muslims are unique but they have been quite friendly and decent in my interactions with them. However I have never heard them criticize or condemn muslim terrorists or terror groups in India.

>>>The could be due to Pakistan becoming more and more radicalized. There is the need to assert and re-assert the Islamic nature of the country to differentiate itself from India which pull it in that direction. The second aspect is the economic condition, which is nothing to write home about. Idle minds, devil's workshop etc. With regard to the lower middle class and poor muslim youth demographic in India, this should be instructive. It won't be enough to clamp down on the law and order front, if the economy goes south and these guys feel like they have nothing at stake.

Hmm.. a couple of issues with those statements, you're assuming that poor Indian Muslims unlike their Hindu counterparts will cease to be moderate if not put on a leash. Secondly, you're forgetting that those 3 or 4 guys that joined ISIS are not from that poor demography you're referring to. I've a better solution, sending those rabble-rouser wing-nuts like Yogi/Togadia packing to Pakistan or some other place, this would help muslims remain moderate more than any other measures that you're alluding to; those poor muslims have been poor for decades, their social/financial status has not changed recently.

Kris wrote:

confuzzled dude wrote:

Kris wrote:
>>>The could be due to Pakistan becoming more and more radicalized. There is the need to assert and re-assert the Islamic nature of the country to differentiate itself from India which pull it in that direction. The second aspect is the economic condition, which is nothing to write home about. Idle minds, devil's workshop etc. With regard to the lower middle class and poor muslim youth demographic in India, this should be instructive. It won't be enough to clamp down on the law and order front, if the economy goes south and these guys feel like they have nothing at stake.

Hmm.. a couple of issues with those statements, you're assuming that poor Indian Muslims unlike their Hindu counterparts will cease to be moderate if not put on a leash. Secondly, you're forgetting that those 3 or 4 guys that joined ISIS are not from that poor demography you're referring to. I've a better solution, sending those rabble-rouser wing-nuts like Yogi/Togadia packing to Pakistan or some other place, this would help muslims remain moderate more than any other measures that you're alluding to; those poor muslims have been poor for decades, their social/financial status has not changed recently.

1) Hindus are not being recruited by the ISIS or Al Queda.

2) Whatever be the problems of a Yogi or a Togadia or whoever else, ISIS/Al Queda/ Pakistan are not stop recruiting muslims for their cause.

confuzzled dude wrote:

Kris wrote:

confuzzled dude wrote:

Kris wrote:
>>>The could be due to Pakistan becoming more and more radicalized. There is the need to assert and re-assert the Islamic nature of the country to differentiate itself from India which pull it in that direction. The second aspect is the economic condition, which is nothing to write home about. Idle minds, devil's workshop etc. With regard to the lower middle class and poor muslim youth demographic in India, this should be instructive. It won't be enough to clamp down on the law and order front, if the economy goes south and these guys feel like they have nothing at stake.

Hmm.. a couple of issues with those statements, you're assuming that poor Indian Muslims unlike their Hindu counterparts will cease to be moderate if not put on a leash. Secondly, you're forgetting that those 3 or 4 guys that joined ISIS are not from that poor demography you're referring to. I've a better solution, sending those rabble-rouser wing-nuts like Yogi/Togadia packing to Pakistan or some other place, this would help muslims remain moderate more than any other measures that you're alluding to; those poor muslims have been poor for decades, their social/financial status has not changed recently.

1) Hindus are not being recruited by the ISIS or Al Queda.

2) Whatever be the problems of a Yogi or a Togadia or whoever else, ISIS/Al Queda/ Pakistan are not stop recruiting muslims for their cause.

At best this is a propaganda at this point in time. There is no credible evidence to corroborate your statements that significant portion of 175 millions muslim population are attracted to these organizations.

Kris wrote:

confuzzled dude wrote:

Kris wrote:

confuzzled dude wrote:

Kris wrote:
>>>The could be due to Pakistan becoming more and more radicalized. There is the need to assert and re-assert the Islamic nature of the country to differentiate itself from India which pull it in that direction. The second aspect is the economic condition, which is nothing to write home about. Idle minds, devil's workshop etc. With regard to the lower middle class and poor muslim youth demographic in India, this should be instructive. It won't be enough to clamp down on the law and order front, if the economy goes south and these guys feel like they have nothing at stake.

Hmm.. a couple of issues with those statements, you're assuming that poor Indian Muslims unlike their Hindu counterparts will cease to be moderate if not put on a leash. Secondly, you're forgetting that those 3 or 4 guys that joined ISIS are not from that poor demography you're referring to. I've a better solution, sending those rabble-rouser wing-nuts like Yogi/Togadia packing to Pakistan or some other place, this would help muslims remain moderate more than any other measures that you're alluding to; those poor muslims have been poor for decades, their social/financial status has not changed recently.

1) Hindus are not being recruited by the ISIS or Al Queda.

2) Whatever be the problems of a Yogi or a Togadia or whoever else, ISIS/Al Queda/ Pakistan are not stop recruiting muslims for their cause.

At best this is a propaganda at this point in time. There is no credible evidence to corroborate your statements that significant portion of 175 millions muslim population are attracted to these organizations.

>>>>All it takes is a fraction of percent to create mayhem and fear. In that light, the fear is well founded.

swapna wrote:

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:

swapna wrote:

goodcitizn wrote:From your link:

And yet India’s Muslims, almost across the board, have remained moderate, tolerant, quick to condemn religious violence and ready to engage members of other religions. The contrast with the sectarian bloodletting, growing radicalism and deepening conservatism in Pakistan next door, for example, is striking.

Definitely more moderate than the Pakistanis.

I have had experiences with muslims in Tamil Nadu. My friends in school and my car driver at home while growing up were saaibus as the muslims were called then. I am not sure if Tamil Nadu muslims are unique but they have been quite friendly and decent in my interactions with them. However I have never heard them criticize or condemn muslim terrorists or terror groups in India.

Amazing! It's pure genius that allows you to know that indian muslims are "definitely" more moderate than Pakistanis.

It is all relative....

who is a worse criminal or more intolerant: A jehadi lover? A Kaboomer? a throat slitter, or a a muslim who does not sing Vande Mataram....

That you say "not singing vande mataram" in the same breath as "throat-slitting" says a lot about you.

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:

swapna wrote:

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:

swapna wrote:

goodcitizn wrote:From your link:

And yet India’s Muslims, almost across the board, have remained moderate, tolerant, quick to condemn religious violence and ready to engage members of other religions. The contrast with the sectarian bloodletting, growing radicalism and deepening conservatism in Pakistan next door, for example, is striking.

Definitely more moderate than the Pakistanis.

I have had experiences with muslims in Tamil Nadu. My friends in school and my car driver at home while growing up were saaibus as the muslims were called then. I am not sure if Tamil Nadu muslims are unique but they have been quite friendly and decent in my interactions with them. However I have never heard them criticize or condemn muslim terrorists or terror groups in India.

Amazing! It's pure genius that allows you to know that indian muslims are "definitely" more moderate than Pakistanis.

It is all relative....

who is a worse criminal or more intolerant: A jehadi lover? A Kaboomer? a throat slitter, or a a muslim who does not sing Vande Mataram....

That you say "not singing vande mataram" in the same breath as "throat-slitting" says a lot about you.

You did not answer my question. Reading comprehension problem?

rawemotions wrote:

goodcitizn wrote:

Rashmun wrote:

goodcitizn wrote:From your link:

And yet India’s Muslims, almost across the board, have remained moderate, tolerant, quick to condemn religious violence and ready to engage members of other religions. The contrast with the sectarian bloodletting, growing radicalism and deepening conservatism in Pakistan next door, for example, is striking.

Definitely more moderate than the Pakistanis.

I have had experiences with muslims in Tamil Nadu. My friends in school and my car driver at home while growing up were saaibus as the muslims were called then. I am not sure if Tamil Nadu muslims are unique but they have been quite friendly and decent in my interactions with them. However I have never heard them criticize or condemn muslim terrorists or terror groups in India.

I've met two interesting people at work--a Pakistani Muslim ( PM) and a Kashmiri Muslim ( KM). I find both of them to be decent people and as is my habit I discussed philosophy and religion with them individually. They are both Sunnis, but the KM is obviously more moderate. Now there is one very easy test for whether you are a moderate Muslim or not if you are Muslim from the Indian subcontinent. This test is applicable to Sunni Muslims who constitute perhaps 90% or more of South Asia's Muslims. The test is: if you are a Sunni Muslim,  are you a barelvi Muslim or a deobandi Muslim?  If you are a barelvi Muslim it means you are a liberal while if you are deobandi it would signal that you are extreme in your religious beliefs.

In the case of my colleagues, KM is a barelvi Muslim;  while PM claims he is neither deobandi nor barelvi but when you pin PM down in a religious/philosophical discussion he starts articulating the views of a deobandi. So effectively PM is a deobandi though he may claim he is not.
PM was saying that there are more barelvis than deobandis in Pakistan. He estimated the percentages to be 60-40. To the best of my knowledge, the percentage is skewed much more in favor of barelvis in India. I think it could be 90-10  or 85-15, something like that. The exact statistical figures need to be investigated further.

Deobandis claim that Barelvis are not really Muslims, while Barelvis denounce deobandis for being extremists.

Interesting read.

I have never heard of barelvis and deobandis in Tamil Nadu. Perhaps there are some Tamil names equivalent to them. I'll check with our driver the next time I visit India.

In the matter of Islamic Supremacist hatred against Hindus, both are the same.
http://www.eurasiareview.com/28012011-barelvis-and-deobandhis-%E2%80%9Cbirds-of-the-same-feather%E2%80%9D/

TN Muslims were Ok, as long as pre-dominantly they were tamil speaking. Now most of them have been urduized, with Saudi/Paki influence. Now situation has changed to such an extent, that most of their leaders support Aurangzeb and his acts of ethnic cleansing. If the political Islamists are not stopped, folks would be so radicalized that they would start behaving like Ghyiasuddin of Madurai Sultanate.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madurai_Sultanate

goodcitizn wrote:

rawemotions wrote:

goodcitizn wrote:

Rashmun wrote:

goodcitizn wrote:From your link:

And yet India’s Muslims, almost across the board, have remained moderate, tolerant, quick to condemn religious violence and ready to engage members of other religions. The contrast with the sectarian bloodletting, growing radicalism and deepening conservatism in Pakistan next door, for example, is striking.

Definitely more moderate than the Pakistanis.

I have had experiences with muslims in Tamil Nadu. My friends in school and my car driver at home while growing up were saaibus as the muslims were called then. I am not sure if Tamil Nadu muslims are unique but they have been quite friendly and decent in my interactions with them. However I have never heard them criticize or condemn muslim terrorists or terror groups in India.

I've met two interesting people at work--a Pakistani Muslim ( PM) and a Kashmiri Muslim ( KM). I find both of them to be decent people and as is my habit I discussed philosophy and religion with them individually. They are both Sunnis, but the KM is obviously more moderate. Now there is one very easy test for whether you are a moderate Muslim or not if you are Muslim from the Indian subcontinent. This test is applicable to Sunni Muslims who constitute perhaps 90% or more of South Asia's Muslims. The test is: if you are a Sunni Muslim,  are you a barelvi Muslim or a deobandi Muslim?  If you are a barelvi Muslim it means you are a liberal while if you are deobandi it would signal that you are extreme in your religious beliefs.

In the case of my colleagues, KM is a barelvi Muslim;  while PM claims he is neither deobandi nor barelvi but when you pin PM down in a religious/philosophical discussion he starts articulating the views of a deobandi. So effectively PM is a deobandi though he may claim he is not.
PM was saying that there are more barelvis than deobandis in Pakistan. He estimated the percentages to be 60-40. To the best of my knowledge, the percentage is skewed much more in favor of barelvis in India. I think it could be 90-10  or 85-15, something like that. The exact statistical figures need to be investigated further.

Deobandis claim that Barelvis are not really Muslims, while Barelvis denounce deobandis for being extremists.

Interesting read.

I have never heard of barelvis and deobandis in Tamil Nadu. Perhaps there are some Tamil names equivalent to them. I'll check with our driver the next time I visit India.

In the matter of Islamic Supremacist hatred against Hindus, both are the same.
http://www.eurasiareview.com/28012011-barelvis-and-deobandhis-%E2%80%9Cbirds-of-the-same-feather%E2%80%9D/

TN Muslims were Ok, as long as pre-dominantly they were tamil speaking. Now most of them have been urduized, with Saudi/Paki influence. Now situation has changed to such an extent, that most of their leaders support Aurangzeb and his acts of ethnic cleansing. If the political Islamists are not stopped, folks would be so radicalized that they would start behaving like Ghyiasuddin of Madurai Sultanate.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madurai_Sultanate

Thanks for the Madurai Sultanate link. I had no idea about the atrocities committed by the muslim rulers in the 14th century in Madurai.

Merlot Daruwala wrote:Haha Rashmun, why would Ibn Batuta lie about this? And what has the Nawab of Arcot's generosity got to do with the Madurai Sultan's brutality??