solar

by MaxEntropy_Man Sat Sep 13, 2014 11:56 am

has anyone here gone through the process of making judgments about solar panels versus aesthetic considerations of their roof?

by FluteHolder Sat Sep 13, 2014 12:03 pm

I am thinking about that and doing some comparisons/durability.

I saw some recent reports of cost of around 20k$ (after 5k federal tax credit) per house and pay off is 15-20 years. I have seen few houses with solar panels in our area and they are not looking ugly and not pretty either.

But not sure about the cost of maintenance/nature of repairs/and hail damage*.

My brother back home in Chennai has put solar panels and almost most of his power consumption comes from his own solar panels.

by Guest Sat Sep 13, 2014 12:07 pm

FluteHolder wrote:I am thinking about that and doing some comparisons/durability.

I saw some recent reports of cost of around 20k$ (after 5k federal tax credit) per house and pay off is 15-20 years. I have seen few houses with solar panels in our area and they are not looking ugly and not pretty either.

But not sure about the cost of maintenance/nature of repairs/and hail damage*.

My brother back home in Chennai has put solar panels and almost most of his power consumption comes from his own solar panels.

funny how so many decisions get made for you just coz you have no money. Smile

by MaxEntropy_Man Sat Sep 13, 2014 12:30 pm

there's a company here putting up systems free of charge and free maintenance for 20 years.

basically the state subsidizes it and the utilities pick up the rest of the tab.

by MaxEntropy_Man Sun Oct 12, 2014 9:00 pm

i am really starting to understand the economics and the technical nitty gritty of this thing. my posts from a few weeks ago were plain naive. now i have a much better understanding. these sales guys really make it sound like motherhood and apple pie. here's a short summary of what i've found out -- i'll get two electricity bills, one from my existing utility and the other from the guys who own my panels. the guys who own my panels will charge me not just for the electricity that i use, but the total electricity that i produce using the panels. if i produce less than what i use, the balance will come from the existing utility company. if i produce more, i can sell it back to the grid (net metering) but at a slightly lower cost than what they're selling it to me. here's the uncertainty that's making me pause -- there is a cap on what the utilities are required to accept through net metering. currently it's only 3% of the total power they produce. with the solar industry expanding like crazy here in MA, that cap will soon be reached. i don't know why they have a cap at all. so there is the not so remote possibility that i am producing excess power for which i am paying my solar company, but that i am not able to sell back to the utility. sure they'll take it, but not pay me for it if they've reached the 3% cap. not a pleasant thought. OTOH electricty costs are going through the roof in MA, a 37% increase next year. it basically boils down to solar not being given the same incentives that coal, nuclear etc. have enjoyed through generations. the utilities are the ones that bargained hard and got the 3% cap put in. a-holes.

by truthbetold Sun Oct 12, 2014 9:16 pm

Max

Do you expect to produce more than you consume? Solar panel efficiency is generally good on south facing side. Do you have a large enough structure to generate enough power through out the year?

If more solar power is generated, it also implies more people have them on their roofs. They are voters and in many case donors. They may be able to influence future policy.

by MaxEntropy_Man Sun Oct 12, 2014 9:30 pm

truthbetold wrote:Max

Do you expect to produce more than you consume? Solar panel efficiency is generally good on south facing side. Do you have a large enough structure to generate enough power through out the year?

If more solar power is generated, it also implies more people have them on their roofs. They are voters and in many case donors. They may be able to influence future policy.

i am getting some estimates done. i am getting multiple analyses done because i have a difficult time believing the first company that approached me. i do have a fairly large structure, but a good portion of it has shadowing effects from dormers, trees and parts of the roof structures themselves causing shadowing. bottomline -- the guy who gave me the first estimate told me he'll be able to supply 82% of my total power usage. problem is that 82% is not all going to be produced when i need it. there will be months in winter when i'll clearly be producing less than my demand and in summer when i'll be producing more. if i am not able to sell back all of what i am producing in excess in summer, i am screwed. the alternative is to suck it up and buy instead of leasing, but that's a larger outlay. but with electricity costs spiking up so much, the break even time will probably not be as long as what it was even last year. so i am also seriously thinking of buying instead of leasing. too many unknowns at this point. meanwhile, i am slowly replacing lights that are going out with LEDs. more expensive up front, but easy on the electricity bill. also trying hard to get the kids to turn off lights. it's an uphill battle with them. they love talking the talk about polar bears and climate change, but won't switch the stupid light off.

by Kris Sun Oct 12, 2014 9:37 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:i am really starting to understand the economics and the technical nitty gritty of this thing. my posts from a few weeks ago were plain naive. now i have a much better understanding. these sales guys really make it sound like motherhood and apple pie. here's a short summary of what i've found out -- i'll get two electricity bills, one from my existing utility and the other from the guys who own my panels. the guys who own my panels will charge me not just for the electricity that i use, but the total electricity that i produce using the panels. if i produce less than what i use, the balance will come from the existing utility company. if i produce more, i can sell it back to the grid (net metering) but at a slightly lower cost than what they're selling it to me. here's the uncertainty that's making me pause -- there is a cap on what the utilities are required to accept through net metering. currently it's only 3% of the total power they produce. with the solar industry expanding like crazy here in MA, that cap will soon be reached. i don't know why they have a cap at all. so there is the not so remote possibility that i am producing excess power for which i am paying my solar company, but that i am not able to sell back to the utility. sure they'll take it, but not pay me for it if they've reached the 3% cap. not a pleasant thought. OTOH electricty costs are going through the roof in MA, a 37% increase next year. it basically boils down to solar not being given the same incentives that coal, nuclear etc. have enjoyed through generations. the utilities are the ones that bargained hard and got the 3% cap put in. a-holes.

>>>I didn't do much homework on this, since the house came with it. On average, this works out to about 25-30% less, if I extrapolate from my previous house's average bill. If we stretched it, it could be 40%, I guess, which was what the builder promised us. Of course, MA regs could impact your situation, although I can't think of any utility being more horrible than PG&E. I haven't looked into the cap aspect, but that is pretty much academic in our case.

by MaxEntropy_Man Sun Oct 12, 2014 9:57 pm

Kris wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:i am really starting to understand the economics and the technical nitty gritty of this thing. my posts from a few weeks ago were plain naive. now i have a much better understanding. these sales guys really make it sound like motherhood and apple pie. here's a short summary of what i've found out -- i'll get two electricity bills, one from my existing utility and the other from the guys who own my panels. the guys who own my panels will charge me not just for the electricity that i use, but the total electricity that i produce using the panels. if i produce less than what i use, the balance will come from the existing utility company. if i produce more, i can sell it back to the grid (net metering) but at a slightly lower cost than what they're selling it to me. here's the uncertainty that's making me pause -- there is a cap on what the utilities are required to accept through net metering. currently it's only 3% of the total power they produce. with the solar industry expanding like crazy here in MA, that cap will soon be reached. i don't know why they have a cap at all. so there is the not so remote possibility that i am producing excess power for which i am paying my solar company, but that i am not able to sell back to the utility. sure they'll take it, but not pay me for it if they've reached the 3% cap. not a pleasant thought. OTOH electricty costs are going through the roof in MA, a 37% increase next year. it basically boils down to solar not being given the same incentives that coal, nuclear etc. have enjoyed through generations. the utilities are the ones that bargained hard and got the 3% cap put in. a-holes.

>>>I didn't do much homework on this, since the house came with it. On average, this works out to about 25-30% less, if I extrapolate from my previous house's average bill. If we stretched it, it could be 40%, I guess, which was what the builder promised us. Of course, MA regs could impact your situation, although I can't think of any utility being more horrible than PG&E. I haven't looked into the cap aspect, but that is pretty much academic in our case.

do you own the panels outright or ~~did~~ do you have a lease/PPA ~~transferred to you from the~~ ~~previous owner of the house~~?

by Kris Sun Oct 12, 2014 10:07 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Kris wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:i am really starting to understand the economics and the technical nitty gritty of this thing. my posts from a few weeks ago were plain naive. now i have a much better understanding. these sales guys really make it sound like motherhood and apple pie. here's a short summary of what i've found out -- i'll get two electricity bills, one from my existing utility and the other from the guys who own my panels. the guys who own my panels will charge me not just for the electricity that i use, but the total electricity that i produce using the panels. if i produce less than what i use, the balance will come from the existing utility company. if i produce more, i can sell it back to the grid (net metering) but at a slightly lower cost than what they're selling it to me. here's the uncertainty that's making me pause -- there is a cap on what the utilities are required to accept through net metering. currently it's only 3% of the total power they produce. with the solar industry expanding like crazy here in MA, that cap will soon be reached. i don't know why they have a cap at all. so there is the not so remote possibility that i am producing excess power for which i am paying my solar company, but that i am not able to sell back to the utility. sure they'll take it, but not pay me for it if they've reached the 3% cap. not a pleasant thought. OTOH electricty costs are going through the roof in MA, a 37% increase next year. it basically boils down to solar not being given the same incentives that coal, nuclear etc. have enjoyed through generations. the utilities are the ones that bargained hard and got the 3% cap put in. a-holes.

>>>I didn't do much homework on this, since the house came with it. On average, this works out to about 25-30% less, if I extrapolate from my previous house's average bill. If we stretched it, it could be 40%, I guess, which was what the builder promised us. Of course, MA regs could impact your situation, although I can't think of any utility being more horrible than PG&E. I haven't looked into the cap aspect, but that is pretty much academic in our case.

do you own the panels outright or ~~did~~ do you have a lease/PPA ~~transferred to you from the~~ ~~previous owner of the house~~?

>>I own it. There was no lease transfer from the builder.

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Sun Oct 12, 2014 10:27 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:there's a company here putting up systems free of charge and free maintenance for 20 years.

basically the state subsidizes it and the utilities pick up the rest of the tab.

Then get it. Be Indian and follow the policy...."If it is free then it is me..."

by Guest Mon Oct 13, 2014 7:31 am

FluteHolder wrote:
My brother back home in Chennai has put solar panels and almost most of his power consumption comes from his own solar panels.

nice bullshit you spew. i have converted lights, including several sodium vapour and mercury vapour lamps, in works, office and residence to led to cut cost. i contemplated going solar next. solar is PROHIBITIVELY expensive here and JUST NOT WORTH IT! A KW costs a few lacs in solar panels and batteries. to run just fans and lights (no acs, pcs or washing machines), you need to spend around 10 lacs! is this what your brother has done?

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Oct 13, 2014 7:54 am

idiot -- it's the same in the US too. what has made it appear in the realm of affordability are govt subsidies. what's going to push it over the edge is the rising COE.

by truthbetold Mon Oct 13, 2014 8:38 am

madrasi_idiot wrote:
FluteHolder wrote:
My brother back home in Chennai has put solar panels and almost most of his power consumption comes from his own solar panels.
nice bullshit you spew. i have converted lights, including several sodium vapour and mercury vapour lamps, in works, office and residence to led to cut cost. i contemplated going solar next. solar is PROHIBITIVELY expensive here and JUST NOT WORTH IT! A KW costs a few lacs in solar panels and batteries. to run just fans and lights (no acs, pcs or washing machines), you need to spend around 10 lacs! is this what your brother has done?

Are you in Delhi?

They are pushing it in south. The Chinese solar panels have brought the cost down. State govt gave some incentives on initial investments. Both AP, T state are pushing the solar panels with T actually speaking of making it a requirement for all dwellings above a particular size.

Try another estimate and see if things have changed. One big incentive in AP and T state is that you survive power cuts during hot summers.

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Oct 13, 2014 8:39 am

TN has also been giving subsidies to private installers. india is primed for solar.

by Guest Mon Oct 13, 2014 8:42 am

truthbetold wrote:
madrasi_idiot wrote:
FluteHolder wrote:
My brother back home in Chennai has put solar panels and almost most of his power consumption comes from his own solar panels.
nice bullshit you spew. i have converted lights, including several sodium vapour and mercury vapour lamps, in works, office and residence to led to cut cost. i contemplated going solar next. solar is PROHIBITIVELY expensive here and JUST NOT WORTH IT! A KW costs a few lacs in solar panels and batteries. to run just fans and lights (no acs, pcs or washing machines), you need to spend around 10 lacs! is this what your brother has done?
Are you in Delhi?

They are pushing it in south. The Chinese solar panels have brought the cost down. State govt gave some incentives on initial investments. Both AP, T state are pushing the solar panels with T actually speaking of making it a requirement for all dwellings above a particular size.

Try another estimate and see if things have changed. One big incentive in AP and T state is that you survive power cuts during hot summers.

no, it does not make sense even with state subsidy -- i am sorry. what subsidy is t and ap giving? i am in bengal and bengal has announced but not passed a 20% subsidy (not worth it). delhi has subsidy in place already, as does UP and uttarakhand. central subsidy to manufacturers has YET not been paid but that is inconsequential for most will opt for chinese modules.

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Oct 13, 2014 8:44 am

madrasi_idiot wrote:
truthbetold wrote:
madrasi_idiot wrote:
FluteHolder wrote:
My brother back home in Chennai has put solar panels and almost most of his power consumption comes from his own solar panels.
nice bullshit you spew. i have converted lights, including several sodium vapour and mercury vapour lamps, in works, office and residence to led to cut cost. i contemplated going solar next. solar is PROHIBITIVELY expensive here and JUST NOT WORTH IT! A KW costs a few lacs in solar panels and batteries. to run just fans and lights (no acs, pcs or washing machines), you need to spend around 10 lacs! is this what your brother has done?
Are you in Delhi?

They are pushing it in south. The Chinese solar panels have brought the cost down. State govt gave some incentives on initial investments. Both AP, T state are pushing the solar panels with T actually speaking of making it a requirement for all dwellings above a particular size.

Try another estimate and see if things have changed. One big incentive in AP and T state is that you survive power cuts during hot summers.

no, it does not make sense even with state subsidy -- i am sorry. what subsidy is t and ap giving? i am in bengal and bengal has announced but not passed a 20% subsidy (not worth it). delhi has subsidy in place already, as does UP and uttarakhand. central subsidy to manufacturers has YET not been paid but that is inconsequential for most will opt for chinese modules.

is the solar leasing model not in vogue in india?

by Guest Mon Oct 13, 2014 8:45 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:idiot -- it's the same in the US too. what has made it appear in the realm of affordability are govt subsidies. what's going to push it over the edge is the rising COE.

really? i exaggerated the indian price. you too? what's the price in USA? all this notwithstanding the fact that you have already mentioned in your post that this price is irrelevant to the economics (but you still had to raise it).

by Guest Mon Oct 13, 2014 8:47 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
madrasi_idiot wrote:
truthbetold wrote:
madrasi_idiot wrote:
FluteHolder wrote:
My brother back home in Chennai has put solar panels and almost most of his power consumption comes from his own solar panels.
nice bullshit you spew. i have converted lights, including several sodium vapour and mercury vapour lamps, in works, office and residence to led to cut cost. i contemplated going solar next. solar is PROHIBITIVELY expensive here and JUST NOT WORTH IT! A KW costs a few lacs in solar panels and batteries. to run just fans and lights (no acs, pcs or washing machines), you need to spend around 10 lacs! is this what your brother has done?
Are you in Delhi?

They are pushing it in south. The Chinese solar panels have brought the cost down. State govt gave some incentives on initial investments. Both AP, T state are pushing the solar panels with T actually speaking of making it a requirement for all dwellings above a particular size.

Try another estimate and see if things have changed. One big incentive in AP and T state is that you survive power cuts during hot summers.

no, it does not make sense even with state subsidy -- i am sorry. what subsidy is t and ap giving? i am in bengal and bengal has announced but not passed a 20% subsidy (not worth it). delhi has subsidy in place already, as does UP and uttarakhand. central subsidy to manufacturers has YET not been paid but that is inconsequential for most will opt for chinese modules.

is the solar leasing model not in vogue in india?

no clue for i haven't enquired. but i doubt it is for i did not hear of this in a discussion with friends on this subject. interstingly delhi pays you rs 5 per unit if you supply to the grid. my back of envelope calculations show that your cost of generation is rs 8 to 10 after capital subsidy of 30%.

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Oct 13, 2014 8:48 am

madrasi_idiot wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:idiot -- it's the same in the US too. what has made it appear in the realm of affordability are govt subsidies. what's going to push it over the edge is the rising COE.

really? i exaggerated the indian price. you too? what's the price in USA? all this notwithstanding the fact that you have already mentioned in your post that this price is irrelevant to the economics (but you still had to raise it).

with subsidies it is going to be anywhere between $30k to $50k for a 9-10 kW installation which my house will require. in the coming days and weeks i am going to get a better fix on the price for buying.

by Guest Mon Oct 13, 2014 8:51 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
madrasi_idiot wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:idiot -- it's the same in the US too. what has made it appear in the realm of affordability are govt subsidies. what's going to push it over the edge is the rising COE.

really? i exaggerated the indian price. you too? what's the price in USA? all this notwithstanding the fact that you have already mentioned in your post that this price is irrelevant to the economics (but you still had to raise it).

with subsidies it is going to be anywhere between $30k to $50k for a 9-10 kW installation which my house will require. in the coming days and weeks i am going to get a better fix on the price for buying.

that is still pricey even after subsidies. i don't know how you justify it.

by Guest Mon Oct 13, 2014 8:54 am

i feel the only way for it to be profitable is to wait for prices to fall. i started switching to led in feb this year. 100 (or was it 150) watt led was rs 13,000 -- chinese. i did not switch. last month it fell to rs 5000! i switched.

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Oct 13, 2014 8:54 am

madrasi_idiot wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
madrasi_idiot wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:idiot -- it's the same in the US too. what has made it appear in the realm of affordability are govt subsidies. what's going to push it over the edge is the rising COE.

really? i exaggerated the indian price. you too? what's the price in USA? all this notwithstanding the fact that you have already mentioned in your post that this price is irrelevant to the economics (but you still had to raise it).

with subsidies it is going to be anywhere between $30k to $50k for a 9-10 kW installation which my house will require. in the coming days and weeks i am going to get a better fix on the price for buying.
that is still pricey even after subsidies. i don't know how you justify it.

i don't know either right now. but electricity rates are skyrocketing in MA. i have not yet been able to determine where the tipping point is. if i get a better fix on the price, i can calculate a break even time at current electricity rates. if rates continue to go up (they are surely not going down; never have), the break even time is going to become even shorter.

oh and the other important part of this equation is the ability to sell back to the grid, what they call net metering in the US. looks like only delhi and punjab are even talking about it right now in india.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-09-04/india-s-punjab-approves-solar-net-metering-after-delhi.html

by truthbetold Mon Oct 13, 2014 8:55 am

Max

Utilities are no pushovers in NE. The cap is placed to allow them to vary the price during peak periods. It is likely that during hot summer days, solar produces lot more power and reduces the shortage. That is likely to take away from utilities ability to increase rates during those periods.

You probably can finance it yourself. Or you should be able to get home equity loan or similar type of loan at low prevailing interest rates. That will free you from dependence on govt policy.

Maintenance is another issue. For large solar plants maintenance costs are negligible compared to coal power plants. But roof top systems could use some maintenance such as wiping off the panels at regular intervals, checking joints and pre and post weather event checks. Since these equipment are located on a roof, you will need an insured maintenance guy at some frequency ( once in a year in later years). May be Kris could enlighten us on maintenance.

My little lawn solar lamp convinced me solar is the future.

by Guest Mon Oct 13, 2014 9:00 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
madrasi_idiot wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
madrasi_idiot wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:idiot -- it's the same in the US too. what has made it appear in the realm of affordability are govt subsidies. what's going to push it over the edge is the rising COE.

really? i exaggerated the indian price. you too? what's the price in USA? all this notwithstanding the fact that you have already mentioned in your post that this price is irrelevant to the economics (but you still had to raise it).

with subsidies it is going to be anywhere between $30k to $50k for a 9-10 kW installation which my house will require. in the coming days and weeks i am going to get a better fix on the price for buying.
that is still pricey even after subsidies. i don't know how you justify it.

i don't know either right now. but electricity rates are skyrocketing in MA. i have not yet been able to determine where the tipping point is. if i get a better fix on the price, i can calculate a break even time at current electricity rates. if rates continue to go up (they are surely not going down; never have), the break even time is going to become even shorter.

that is a sound point! i am waiting for wb govt. to push through the subsidy bill (which the have announced and it has a central subsidy component too) and then i might invest in a 3 kw set to test the waters. electricity rates rise in kolkata every year (rs 9 per kwh approx now) because it is privatized and they over bill you. yes sir, they do -- they are crooks and monopolistic.

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Oct 13, 2014 9:03 am

truthbetold wrote:Max

Utilities are no pushovers in NE. The cap is placed to allow them to vary the price during peak periods. It is likely that during hot summer days, solar produces lot more power and reduces the shortage. That is likely to take away from utilities ability to increase rates during those periods.

You probably can finance it yourself. Or you should be able to get home equity loan or similar type of loan at low prevailing interest rates. That will free you from dependence on govt policy.

Maintenance is another issue. For large solar plants maintenance costs are negligible compared to coal power plants. But roof top systems could use some maintenance such as wiping off the panels at regular intervals, checking joints and pre and post weather event checks. Since these equipment are located on a roof, you will need an insured maintenance guy at some frequency ( once in a year in later years). May be Kris could enlighten us on maintenance.

My little lawn solar lamp convinced me solar is the future.

yup. as in most things in life, buying is a better option than leasing. it also allows you to avail of the tax benefit instead of the solar company eating the tax benefit. i am thinking about it seriously. also trying to get a bunch of neighbors fired up about this and see if we can negotiate a better deal if a number of us sign up.

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Oct 13, 2014 9:09 am

truthbetold wrote:Max

Utilities are no pushovers in NE. The cap is placed to allow them to vary the price during peak periods. It is likely that during hot summer days, solar produces lot more power and reduces the shortage. That is likely to take away from utilities ability to increase rates during those periods.

You probably can finance it yourself. Or you should be able to get home equity loan or similar type of loan at low prevailing interest rates. That will free you from dependence on govt policy.

Maintenance is another issue. For large solar plants maintenance costs are negligible compared to coal power plants. But roof top systems could use some maintenance such as wiping off the panels at regular intervals, checking joints and pre and post weather event checks. Since these equipment are located on a roof, you will need an insured maintenance guy at some frequency ( once in a year in later years). May be Kris could enlighten us on maintenance.

My little lawn solar lamp convinced me solar is the future.

the utilities are actually very strained in summer to keep up with demand. this is the reason why we have occasional brownouts during summer. buying back excess power from private solar installations actually improves their grid stability. they are just greedy. they want the power alright, but want it for free. as rates keep going up i am sure there will be significant push back from the public to rein the utilities in and force them legislatively to remove the cap.

in fact some years ago i tightened up my house by adding better attic insulation and getting cavity insulation done and generally improving the ventilation in my house for "free". i put free in quotes because we pay a small fee in our electricity bill for this purpose. my house is already in good shape as far as heat losses go, but this made it even better. the electric utility sent out a big feel good letter to everyone saying we can get this done for free. later i found out everyone is paying a small fee on every bill that goes towards such improvements. we were just getting back what we had already paid.

by Guest Mon Oct 13, 2014 9:13 am

as was suggested by a fiend in a discussion i had not too long ago, an alternative is micro turbines (vestas). we get good wind speeds in kolkata.

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Oct 13, 2014 9:16 am

madrasi_idiot wrote:as was suggested by a fiend in a discussion i had not too long ago, an alternative is micro turbines (vestas). we get good wind speeds in kolkata.

how noisy are they?

by truthbetold Mon Oct 13, 2014 9:34 am

I just heard in that one of my neighbors had another problem. They installed solar and had to take it down because it put too much weight on the roof. This is the first time I heard about weight problem. I need to find more details to get to the bottom of that story.

by Guest Mon Oct 13, 2014 9:37 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
madrasi_idiot wrote:as was suggested by a fiend in a discussion i had not too long ago, an alternative is micro turbines (vestas). we get good wind speeds in kolkata.

how noisy are they?

i don't know. i am going to investigate. we had this discussion yesterday after i started the discussion with my research into solar. the friend suggested (for india) vestas or siemens (ceramic motors and carbon fiber rotors) and he rubbished suzlon (old tech.). he said it's $ 0.5 M for 1 MW. so that's a lower per KW capital cost over solar i think.

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Oct 13, 2014 9:40 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
madrasi_idiot wrote:as was suggested by a fiend in a discussion i had not too long ago, an alternative is micro turbines (vestas). we get good wind speeds in kolkata.

how noisy are they?

will probably be good for me as it may mask my tinnitus, haha! it's the rest of the family and my neighbors who may complain.

by truthbetold Mon Oct 13, 2014 9:47 am

With a 1MW, Max can supply his entire neighborhood. MAX utility, Inc. Only problem is that regulations will kill Max utility even before he makes a dime.

by Guest Mon Oct 13, 2014 11:23 am

truthbetold wrote:With a 1MW, Max can supply his entire neighborhood. MAX utility, Inc. Only problem is that regulations will kill Max utility even before he makes a dime.

good thread. robust discussion. hope we see more of such action.

by Kris Mon Oct 13, 2014 11:24 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
truthbetold wrote:Max

Utilities are no pushovers in NE. The cap is placed to allow them to vary the price during peak periods. It is likely that during hot summer days, solar produces lot more power and reduces the shortage. That is likely to take away from utilities ability to increase rates during those periods.

You probably can finance it yourself. Or you should be able to get home equity loan or similar type of loan at low prevailing interest rates. That will free you from dependence on govt policy.

Maintenance is another issue. For large solar plants maintenance costs are negligible compared to coal power plants. But roof top systems could use some maintenance such as wiping off the panels at regular intervals, checking joints and pre and post weather event checks. Since these equipment are located on a roof, you will need an insured maintenance guy at some frequency ( once in a year in later years). May be Kris could enlighten us on maintenance.

My little lawn solar lamp convinced me solar is the future.

yup. as in most things in life, buying is a better option than leasing. it also allows you to avail of the tax benefit instead of the solar company eating the tax benefit. i am thinking about it seriously. also trying to get a bunch of neighbors fired up about this and see if we can negotiate a better deal if a number of us sign up.

>>>>This is a great strategy. There seems to be a big push in CA for Solar, judging by the telemarketing calls I get and the reps I see around shopping centers. If that is the case in your neck of the woods too, these guys must be hungry for deals and be willing to negotiate.

by Kris Mon Oct 13, 2014 11:28 am

truthbetold wrote:I just heard in that one of my neighbors had another problem. They installed solar and had to take it down because it put too much weight on the roof. This is the first time I heard about weight problem. I need to find more details to get to the bottom of that story.

>>>Wow! More reason for due diligence. Still, I think I will go the Solar route even if we move.

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Mon Oct 13, 2014 11:34 am

madrasi_idiot wrote:
truthbetold wrote:With a 1MW, Max can supply his entire neighborhood. MAX utility, Inc. Only problem is that regulations will kill Max utility even before he makes a dime.

good thread. robust discussion. hope we see more of such action.

Yes..yes...and yes..... Wink

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Oct 13, 2014 12:11 pm

here is one more thing for new englanders and other snow country dwellers to think about -- snow and ice avalanches during heavy snowfall. basically without the panels snow comes off slowly as it melts, but with the panels, you could apparently get snow avalanches which can ruin rain gutters and crush cars, animals, or people standing below. yippy! not sure if my umbrella policy is going to cover that.

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Mon Oct 13, 2014 12:38 pm

Kris wrote:
truthbetold wrote:I just heard in that one of my neighbors had another problem. They installed solar and had to take it down because it put too much weight on the roof. This is the first time I heard about weight problem. I need to find more details to get to the bottom of that story.
>>>Wow! More reason for due diligence. Still, I think I will go the Solar route even if we move.

The maintenance also is a factor. dust can coat the panels in no time (like on your windshield) reducing the panel efficiencies (which is only 11 to 12 % to start with). it needs to be cleaned frequently - not to mention bird poop and so on.

15 to 20 yr payoff is too long. The chances are you will upgrade your panels in 5 to 10 years and pay for it too. The way to reduce utility bills is to change as much as possible to Gas and replace all lights to LEDs. That will leave just your refrigerator. This is a first step and easily doable.

by MaxEntropy_Man Mon Oct 13, 2014 7:50 pm

Marathadi-Saamiyaar wrote:
Kris wrote:
truthbetold wrote:I just heard in that one of my neighbors had another problem. They installed solar and had to take it down because it put too much weight on the roof. This is the first time I heard about weight problem. I need to find more details to get to the bottom of that story.
>>>Wow! More reason for due diligence. Still, I think I will go the Solar route even if we move.

The maintenance also is a factor. dust can coat the panels in no time (like on your windshield) reducing the panel efficiencies (which is only 11 to 12 % to start with). it needs to be cleaned frequently - not to mention bird poop and so on.

15 to 20 yr payoff is too long. The chances are you will upgrade your panels in 5 to 10 years and pay for it too. The way to reduce utility bills is to change as much as possible to Gas and replace all lights to LEDs. That will leave just your refrigerator. This is a first step and easily doable.

this is where the PPA (power purchase agreement) rather than a lease works better. you pay only for the power your system is producing through this type of a contract. with a lease you are paying rent on the equipment. so no power, no bill. less power, lower bill. it's very much in the interest of the solar company to take care of your system and make sure it is performing well. otherwise they don't make any money beyond the tax incentives that the state offers.

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