Re: to those who post from india....

by charvaka Fri Aug 19, 2011 12:03 pm

Merlot Daruwala wrote:
charvaka wrote:
Huzefa Kapasi wrote:i suppose it is just a stance for bargaining and will be whittled away by team anna once the other demands have been reasonably met.
Yeah, the draft should be viewed as just that -- a draft to be discussed and negotiated. There are good elements in it and bad.

And that is what Team Baburao is refusing to do. From day one, it's been my way or the highway. The fast is now to push his draft thru parliament.

That's not how I read it. He has been negotiating with the government. The government went ahead and introduced its own draft with an advisory -- haha -- Lokpal. He has been a tough negotiator, but he has made some compromises. At the end of the day, he needs to step aside for the final draft, but until we get close (the government needs to accept having the PM under its ambit), he is a good leader for the campaign.

by charvaka Fri Aug 19, 2011 12:25 pm

Merlot Daruwala wrote:
charvaka wrote: The Lokpal is intended as the investigator and prosecutor, with cases then going to the courts for trial.

Which section specifies this bit abt using existing courts for trial? From what I could make out, the Lok Pal will have its own judges to hand out the sentences as well - a bit like the military tribunals.

Section 30 (1) says, "Trial in any case filed by Lokpal should be completed within one year." Section 13A talks about the special judges that need to be appointed to try cases within a year, under the existing Prevention of Corruption Act. If the Lokpal is judge, then these provisions would not make sense. Throughout the bill, there is talk of investigation and prosecution
being the responsibilities of the Lokpal, not conducting trials and issuing verdicts.

It is basically a strengthened police / investigative function. I am concerned about the current draft as it applies to search warrants and in the area of contempt-of-court-like powers. I think both can be fixed without major effect on the structure of the bill.

by MaxEntropy_Man Fri Aug 19, 2011 3:48 pm

a WSJ blog (http://blogs.wsj.com/indiarealtime/2011/08/18/why-anna-hazare-is-not-indias-arab-spring/)

and my friend's (same friend) response:
_______________________________________________________
Pardon my
French, but I really cannot believe readers are calling this utter BS
"balanced."

You may think this as an extreme statement, but read on, and you will
understand why my irritation is justified.

Reading this makes me wonder if the author ever has even been in India - this
guy is probably either 1. An armchair critic, who thinks that some superficial
understanding of the issues qualifies him to write an article, or 2. A person
with a clear anti-Anna Hazare and pro-Indian govt. bias. I will give him
the benefit of doubt and simply assume he is misinformed - and ask him to do a
better job of journalism next time.

Here are the things that are wrong with this article:

1. The comparison between Arab Spring and Indian Monsoon is not based on the
presence or absence of tanks, stone-throwing, dictators, etc., etc. The
point is that an entire population has finally woken up against decades of
injustice - and that a people who, by and large, have always accepted the
status quo have challenged it in previously unimaginable ways. In fact,
the reason there is a crisis at all is that, in both Arab Spring and Indian
Monsoon, the people's reaction was so unexpected that the rulers did not know
what to do about it. Just as in the Arab context, the Indian rulers assumed
that they could go on doing things "as usual" and no one would say
anything in protest. And people reacted in a way that no one expected.

2. Don't overestimate the freedoms Indians have. We are a democracy, yes,
but only certain people can win elections. Politicians and bureaucrats
have learned to misuse the parliamentary and democratic system in a way that
makes sure access is granted to only a few and that you have to beg and bribe
for everything. It is this tyranny and slavery that Indians have gotten
sick of. So, the fact is, just as Beckett says about the Arabs, Indians
are also asking for "greater representation and a switch to a democratic
system." I'm sorry to say, the politicians India has do not
represent us. For many years, my parents simply did not vote because they
felt the choices were so bad - they would only be replacing one thief with
another. Since my childhood, I have always heard discussions in which
people would debate whether we have had enough of democracy and whether we
should have a dictatorship instead - a clear sign that the so-called
"representative democracy" has failed India. Pay India a visit
and see how bad things are. It is not because India is a poor country.
India is NOT a poor country. It is a rich country with a lot of inequity,
like many African countries that have huge mineral wealth but the majority of
its citizens living in abject, heart-wrenching poverty.

3. Mr. Beckett says that "no one, in contrast, is surprised by crowds
taking to the streets in India to vent their frustration." Nothing
could be further from the truth. This one statement clearly shows that
the author doesn't really understand India at all and doesn't know what this
movement is about. The fact of the matter is that the magnitude and reach
of the protests in India have completely taken the government by
surprise. They were clearly not expecting anything like this. India
has not seen protests like this at any time since independence. Now, this
is not to say that protests are disallowed in India - of course they are
not. But, in the past, when you have seen protests on the streets, they
were not organized by the common people of India, but usually by political
parties. The people attending those rallies are usually their party
faithful, the rally numbers inflated by truckloads of people carted from nearby
villages to attend the rally in return for a free meal and some cash. The
current protests, in contrast, are completely spontaneous. The other
reason these protests are a huge surprise is the kind of people who are
participating. The people participating in these rallies are people, who,
in the past, would have said, "why bother? nothing will change by our
marching. why get into trouble?" The surprise is that they
have shaken off that apathy and realized that unless they do something, nothing
will change. THIS HASN'T HAPPENED IN 64 YEARS OF INDEPENDENCE.
Isn't that a monumental shift? Beckett comparing these protests to other
routine protests that might be called by a political party shows how
superficial his analysis is. We have had "Bharat Bandhs"
before, but they were not affairs in which the people of the country
voluntarily refrained from going to work in support of the cause - they did not
go out of the house in fear of being attacked by goons. But this time, no
one is forcing people to march on the streets, and they are voluntarily taking
time off to participate.

4. Mr. Beckett says while Arab Spring wanted a complete overhaul, the
anti-corruption movement in India makes demands that are "embarassingly
modest and narrow." Mr. Beckett thinks that the only points of
difference between the government's lokpal and Anna Hazare's Jan Lokpal is only
that Jan Lokpal wants the PM and the Judiciary and that the government's bill
doesn't. In Mr. Beckett's oversimplified style, "That's
it." What is embarassing here is not the scale of the
anti-corruption movement's demands, but Mr. Beckett's abysmal ignorance of the
issues. But again, this is what you would expect someone with only a
superficial understanding of the issues to say. To some extent, we should
also blame Anna's supporters and the media for focusing so much on the issue of
the PM and the judiciary, but the fact is that there are many differences
between the two bills that are far more significant. For one, the
government's bill would exempt all sitting MPs and MLAs from the purview of the
Jan Lokpal. This is a major issue for several reasons. Several of
the high-profile corruption cases that have hit the news in recent times have
involved sitting MPs. So if you have a lokpal that cannot investigate
sitting MPs, you are missing out on the biggest scams! For another, the
government's bill would exempt all government officers below grade A.
This means that most of the forcible corruption that the people of the country
are subjected to: having to pay a bribe to get a license, to get even a death
certificate, to get a ration card, to get your telephone number changed, etc.,
etc., will have no redress as the junior clerks and officers who demand those
bribes to do their job will not be accountable to the lokpal. And
everyone knows that the existing laws are not enough to prosecute those
criminals. So the differences are very deep and very significant.
With the government's lokpal bill, nothing would really change for the
people. The PM and higher judiciary are actually a much smaller issue
than the issue of MPs and officers below grade A.

5. Mr. Beckett talks about the government being restrained, in that no tanks or
bullets were used. This is not a great achievement. Only a total
lunatic would attempt to use force against a movement like this. They
arrested Anna, and look at the response they got. Had they fired on the
crowd or used force, by now the government would have had to resign, so great
is the support from the people for the movement. The people, on the other
hand, and Anna Hazare's movement, deserve tremendous credit for not letting
their emotions getting the better of them. THERE HAS NOT BEEN A SINGLE
VIOLENT INCIDENT IN THIS AGITATION! The protesters have proved that
Mahatma Gandhi did not live in vain in India. It is very very easy for
such large crowds to get violent, yet they did not.

6. Finally, Mr. Beckett makes a statement which is incredibly ignorant of the
reality: "Nor does India’s protest movement yet really deserve to be
called “mass” when tens of thousands of largely middle-class folks turn out in
front of television cameras while hundreds of millions carry on their daily
lives, oblivious and wondering how they will afford their next
meal." Does he have a clue? The idea that "largely
middle-class folks" are the people agitating is a canard spread by people
who want to discredit the movement. There are so many instances of
documented support for Anna from people who are clearly not middle-class or
urban. Take a look at these samples:

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/site/story/support-for-anna-hazare-in-amethi-and-rae-bareli/1/148352.html
http://www.daijiworld.com/news/news_disp.asp?n_id=112314
http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2011-08-17/news/29896664_1_anna-hazare-effective-anti-corruption-law-auto-drivers
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/politics/nation/for-the-first-time-in-their-120-year-old-history-mumbais-dabbawalas-to-take-a-break-for-anna-hazare/articleshow/9649340.cms
http://news.oneindia.in/2011/08/19/anna-hazare-gets-support-from-sex-worker-janlokpal-bill.html
Are these middle-class folks? This is the problem with someone like Mr.
Beckett who writes stuff based on secondhand information without an
understanding of the pulse of the people.

7. And let me make one of my own points without reference to this worthless
article from Mr. Beckett: I will say that what is happening in India is
far more of a mass protest than Tahrir Square ever was. How many places
in Egypt did you hear of protests happening? Only Tahrir Square in Cairo
and maybe, 2-3 places more at most (minor). Turn the TV on and all you
saw was this one place in Cairo. Compare this to the movement in India
and you see people in tens of thousands marching all over India: New Delhi,
Mumbai, Chennai, Hyderabad, Bangalore, Jaipur, Thiruvananthapuram, Udipi,
Mysore, Coimbatore, Ahmednagar, Sholapur, Bhubhaneswar, Ranchi, Shimla, Patna,
Raipur, Pune, Bhagalpur, Chandigarh, Lucknow, Kolkata, Guwahati, Shillong, Jammu,
Rajkot, Bhavnagar, Dibrugarh, Madurai, Karwar - and this is only a small
list. So I guess I agree in one way with Mr. Beckett - this is no
Arab Spring - this is the Indian Monsoon!
___________________________________________________________________________

by Ponniyin Selvan Fri Aug 19, 2011 11:02 pm

For many years, my parents simply did not vote because they
felt the choices were so bad - they would only be replacing one thief with
another. Since my childhood, I have always heard discussions in which
people would debate whether we have had enough of democracy and whether we
should have a dictatorship instead - a clear sign that the so-called
"representative democracy" has failed India.

This is quite dangerous. Does your friend think the millions who vote in Indian elections and change governments are fools ?. But this is quite along the expected lines of Hazare supporters .

by Guest Sat Aug 20, 2011 1:06 am

charvaka wrote:The government went ahead and introduced its own draft with an advisory -- haha -- Lokpal. He has been a tough negotiator, but he has made some compromises. At the end of the day, he needs to step aside for the final draft, but until we get close (the government needs to accept having the PM under its ambit), he is a good leader for the campaign.

to add, prashant bhushan indicated yesterday that they were open to excluding the judiciary if some alternate accountability was guaranteed. he also said, "[we are] open to discussion with the government and have an open mind but will not compromise on corruption." it's now upto the govt. to engage them. if the govt. continues to ignore team anna, no one can fault team anna for being rigid and not changing its stand.

by Kayalvizhi Sat Aug 20, 2011 1:19 am

This hazare protests in TN is miniscule compared to 1965 ANTI-HINDI agitation or the 2008-09 pro-LTTE agitations

by Guest Sat Aug 20, 2011 6:09 am

Kayalvizhi wrote:This hazare protests in TN is miniscule compared to 1965 ANTI-HINDI agitation or the 2008-09 pro-LTTE agitations

by Another Brick Mon Aug 22, 2011 1:55 am

Kayalvizhi wrote:This hazare protests in TN is miniscule compared to 1965 ANTI-HINDI agitation or the 2008-09 pro-LTTE agitations

LOL! xoxo, KV.

by Guest Mon Aug 22, 2011 12:57 pm

my armchair analysis is that this anna movement is carrying great momentum. the biggest crusader of the anna movement has been the congress; specifically pigvijay singh (his statements in the aftermath of baba ramdev's protest) and kapil sibal (lokpal bill is not a silver bulet) and manmohan singh (arrest anna). now the anna cause is not important. the dissatisfaction with the ruling govt. is more important (be it on account of corruption, inflation or ill treatment of protesters during the 1965 anti-hindi riots). this movement is spreading to towns and villages fast from what i understand. time will tell.

by charvaka Mon Aug 22, 2011 1:48 pm

Huzefa Kapasi wrote:the biggest crusader of the anna movement has been the congress; specifically pigvijay singh (his statements in the aftermath of baba ramdev's protest) and kapil sibal (lokpal bill is not a silver bulet) and manmohan singh (arrest anna).

This is my read on the situation as well. Back in April, Congress played its hand well vis-a-vis Anna. Then came Ramdev trying to steal Anna's thunder with his own fast. Instead of treating him like the loon he is, Congress unleashed the dogs of war on his stupid but peaceful and unarmed supporters. Perhaps Congress saw -- in Ramdev's saffron garb, and in the presence of hatemongers like Sadhvi Rithambara at the protest -- an opportunity to play the age-old Communal Harmony card. Or they learned the wrong lessons from the Arab Spring. Either way, they seriously overplayed their hand. Because Ramdev was incapable of using the political advantage that the government handed him, they may have confirmed the wrong lesson they learned about using preemptive force to deal with anti-corruption protests.

It will be interesting to see how much of a mass movement this becomes. I'd rather see this lead to a strong Lokpal bill, rather than see it get dissipated into an anti-Congress political protest, or be coopted by the BJP as a way to get back into power.

by Bittu Mon Aug 22, 2011 11:32 pm

ppl who post from india should send us pix of them in salwar kameezes

by Kayalvizhi Mon Aug 22, 2011 11:58 pm

>> ill treatment of protesters during the 1965 anti-hindi riots

Where (state, country) were the 1965 anti-hindi riots?

by Merlot Daruwala Sun Oct 19, 2014 5:30 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:it's hard to get a sense for how historic a moment this is or how
important a figure anna hazare is from my perch here in the US.
the BBC world service reported it and so are some of the local
news outlets. what is your own sense of the importance of what
is going on right now? does he have popular support? is he truly
a gandhian as the western press has made him out to be? is this
just a populist movement or have the educated elite joined him? how
about the business community? do you think things are really going
to change? times like this are when i really miss being in india so
i can experience stuff like this first hand.

I was searching for something else but came across this thread from three years ago. Wonder what happened to those earnest young men and women, some of who had quit comfy jobs to be part of a historic, transformational movement, wearing I'm Anna caps and swearing by Mahatma Anna in his celebrated second struggle for independence. Those change-bringing NRIs who raised funds and flooded the internets with their fervent messages of change...

by Maria S Sun Oct 19, 2014 6:11 am

Merlot Daruwala. wrote:
I was searching for something else but came across this thread from three years ago. Wonder what happened to those earnest young men and women, some of who had quit comfy jobs to be part of a historic, transformational movement, wearing I'm Anna caps and swearing by Mahatma Anna in his celebrated second struggle for independence. Those change-bringing NRIs who raised funds and flooded the internets with their fervent messages of change...

Well, some of those earnest young men and women in TamilNadu..esp. those who belong to the Tamil Movie Industry..who participated- marched in this "anti corruption" historic movement..are the same people who also participated in the fasting after a nice meal (!), marching making speeches to release Amma from jail:)

Go figure..I guess they are just a little confused or blinded by something:)

by truthbetold Sun Oct 19, 2014 6:57 am

For those who refuse to see the real world, Anna's white caps barrowed some saffron color and bought some summer knickers. They are running the country.

by MaxEntropy_Man Sun Oct 19, 2014 6:59 am

borrowed not barrowed.

by MaxEntropy_Man Sun Oct 19, 2014 8:45 am

Merlot Daruwala wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:it's hard to get a sense for how historic a moment this is or how
important a figure anna hazare is from my perch here in the US.
the BBC world service reported it and so are some of the local
news outlets. what is your own sense of the importance of what
is going on right now? does he have popular support? is he truly
a gandhian as the western press has made him out to be? is this
just a populist movement or have the educated elite joined him? how
about the business community? do you think things are really going
to change? times like this are when i really miss being in india so
i can experience stuff like this first hand.

I was searching for something else but came across this thread from three years ago. Wonder what happened to those earnest young men and women, some of who had quit comfy jobs to be part of a historic, transformational movement, wearing I'm Anna caps and swearing by Mahatma Anna in his celebrated second struggle for independence. Those change-bringing NRIs who raised funds and flooded the internets with their fervent messages of change...

touché.

by Guest Sun Oct 19, 2014 9:15 am

Guess I was right in this thread:

Guest wrote:I do keep a pessimistic view on this... In India people talk about changes, but want their own lives unchanged. So if anything is affecting THEM they resist strongly. That alone is enough to guarantee things will progress as is.

small example... ewwwerybody in India curses bad traffic on roads... you drive with them one time, and you see them breaking the rules themselves.. reason? 'Why be the lone fool on the road? Why be inconvenient and late when e'one else is going ahead?'

and ahem, let's see if this happens.

Guest wrote:k, will see.... The very fact that it STILL is a ONE man versus government issue says a lot. What are people doing? Watching tamasha on tv? But ya, AB, MD, HK can give a better perspective.

Until it's a bigger/team/mass effort backed by strong policies and stronger executions, we can keep dreaming heroic dreams. You may argue that Hazare would kickstart that, but will see.

India needs to elect that leader with that team who promises he/she will do this, and then actually does it. That's the right way in a democracy anyway. And that's how things work in a long run.

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