What is the best strategy to eliminate iSlamic terrorism?

by Vakavaka Pakapaka Sat Nov 14, 2015 9:43 pm

Here is my approach: the world should put a sincere effort into developing alternate energy sources. If enough countries move away from petroleum, the Bedouins will lose their income and revert back to living in tents smelling like camel dung and wiping their butts with stones. Once the financial backers are neutralized, the morons will start walking away from pieceful ways and look for other masters.

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Sat Nov 14, 2015 10:34 pm

Vakavaka Pakapaka wrote:Here is my approach: the world should put a sincere effort into developing alternate energy sources. If enough countries move away from petroleum, the Bedouins will lose their income and revert back to living in tents smelling like camel dung and wiping their butts with stones. Once the financial backers are neutralized, the morons will start walking away from pieceful ways and look for other masters.

You are dead wrong. By the time your plan is achieved, the Bedouins will be living all over France, Germany, Baltics, US and practicing Sharia and Purdah.

by truthbetold Sat Nov 14, 2015 10:57 pm

VP

Loss of income from energy is already happening. Billions of dollars are saved by consuming nations in the past year and oil rich nations are sagging under the load of subsidies that were put in place during hey days. The loss of revenue will have an impact. But that impact is long term change.

At the same time, terror genie has escaped the bottle. Now that is a major industry among religious fanatics of middle industry. They tasted the power of taking the lives of innocent people and the power of money. Those religious fanatics who got money and women are not likely to give up so easily.

A military defeat followed by prolonged cultural reeducation is required for middle east.

by Kris Sat Nov 14, 2015 11:22 pm

truthbetold wrote:VP

Loss of income from energy is already happening. Billions of dollars are saved by consuming nations in the past year and oil rich nations are sagging under the load of subsidies that were put in place during hey days. The loss of revenue will have an impact. But that impact is long term change.

At the same time, terror genie has escaped the bottle. Now that is a major industry among religious fanatics of middle industry. They tasted the power of taking the lives of innocent people and the power of money. Those religious fanatics who got money and women are not likely to give up so easily.

A military defeat followed by prolonged cultural reeducation is required for middle east.

>>>TBT,

The problem is who is going to commit to this, given the amount of money and manpower needed? And that is not including the need to deal with the nut-jobs who are resistant. This will be an uphill battle and that is a huge under-statement. The best the west can do is fight this tactically by engaging and eliminating the key players and watch the Islamic communities within their borders to head off any internal troubles. That in itself will take a huge manpower and financial commitment. If nothing is done in the name of political correctness, the attack on Paris yesterday will seem like child's play in comparison to what will likely come next.

by Vakavaka Pakapaka Sat Nov 14, 2015 11:27 pm

TBT/Uppili

I agree with you. This is not going to be easy. If there is financial trouble in iSlamic countries, there will be more pieceful refugees knocking on the doors of EU and US. Here is another idea: how about helping monomaniac nations in providing free education for girls until they complete undergraduate degrees? If women become self-reliant, mullahs will be neutralized and there will be societal change.

by MaxEntropy_Man Sat Nov 14, 2015 11:29 pm

Kris wrote:

The problem is who is going to commit to this, given the amount of money and manpower needed? And that is not including the need to deal with the nut-jobs who are resistant. This will be an uphill battle and that is a huge under-statement. The best the west can do is fight this tactically by engaging and eliminating the key players and watch the Islamic communities within their borders to head off any internal troubles. That in itself will take a huge manpower and financial commitment. If nothing is done in the name of political correctness, the attack on Paris yesterday will seem like child's play in comparison to what will likely come next.

all that should be done and it will get done, but this scourge is not going to be eliminated until a powerful alternative narrative the pulls young people away from this poisonous ideology can be planted and nurtured in european and north american societies. when we read news reports of girls and boys running away from perfectly fine middle class homes in birmingham uk and denver, colorado, one gets the sense that the parents of such kids are as surprised and aghast as we are. what are some practical ways in which western governments can help these parents turn their kids away from a radicalizing ideology?

by Kris Sat Nov 14, 2015 11:48 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Kris wrote:

The problem is who is going to commit to this, given the amount of money and manpower needed? And that is not including the need to deal with the nut-jobs who are resistant. This will be an uphill battle and that is a huge under-statement. The best the west can do is fight this tactically by engaging and eliminating the key players and watch the Islamic communities within their borders to head off any internal troubles. That in itself will take a huge manpower and financial commitment. If nothing is done in the name of political correctness, the attack on Paris yesterday will seem like child's play in comparison to what will likely come next.

all that should be done and it will get done, but this scourge is not going to be eliminated until a powerful alternative narrative the pulls young people away from this poisonous ideology can be planted and nurtured in european and north american societies. when we read news reports of girls and boys running away from perfectly fine middle class homes in birmingham uk and denver, colorado, one gets the sense that the parents of such kids are as surprised and aghast as we are. what are some practical ways in which western governments can help these parents turn their kids away from a radicalizing ideology?

>>>Honestly I am not that optimistic on either of these, namely, the tactical engagement of the key perpetrators or an alternative narrative. With regard to a different narrative, when you have erstwhile students at the London School of Economics signing up, it cannot be some sense of being deprived and shunned by the host society. Even monitoring known radical mosques is not going to shut down internet access. Even battening down the hatches is not a fool proof option.

by truthbetold Sun Nov 15, 2015 12:49 am

The fact that youth being attracted to such ideologies is not new. Nor is it surprising that youth are targeted by these terrorist organizers.

Youth getting attracted to these bursts of fame is as old as insects getting drawn man made lights after sunset. History teaches us while few of these calls for duty are really purposeful and change humanities destiny, most of them are commandeered by self aggrandizing despots or religious fanatics. ISIS is an extreme example of such twilight man made light with disastrous consequence.

Rest of humanity can only destroy this extreme phenomena and move on with life.

by MaxEntropy_Man Sun Nov 15, 2015 8:03 am

truthbetold wrote:

Rest of humanity can only destroy this extreme phenomena and move on with life.

the numbers are not in the rest of humanity's favor. there's plenty more where the paris terrorists came from.

by Propagandhi711 Sun Nov 15, 2015 8:35 am

a good vaccine

by truthbetold Sun Nov 15, 2015 9:35 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
truthbetold wrote:

Rest of humanity can only destroy this extreme phenomena and move on with life.

the numbers are not in the rest of humanity's favor. there's plenty more where the paris terrorists came from.

I do not consider all middle eastern possible present or future terrorist elements. Only a small fraction of these population will ever be ready to use a grenade or a machine gun or wear suicide vest. They are bred by a certain type of religious preaching followed by state protected military training. So you destroy, extreme religious teaching sources, military training centers, and possible candidates. It may needs local troops.

Do not confuse isreali/arab conflict, arab spring type of mass movements against local despotic govts, and other local tribal conflicts in middle east with extreme movements such as ISIS and boko Haram. Middle eastern shia sunni conflict does feed into this conflict.

Pakistan/afghanistan looks far away but events there provided lot of historical militant knowledge to the middle eastern terrorists. The world should also clean up that mess but are not likely to do much any time soon.

Ordinary muslim in middle east is not waking up thinking about killing people in the west. They are more concerned about their family survival just like poor people around the world. The inability or unwillingness of local despotic rulers to show a democratic way to a better life leave them vulnerable to exploitation by extremist religious views.

I hope west uses Paris attack as a rallying cry to step up military pressure on extreme organizations like ISIS followed by an intense political pressure on local political leaders to improve people's participation in governance.

by confuzzled dude Sun Nov 15, 2015 10:48 am

truthbetold wrote:
I hope west uses Paris attack as a rallying cry to step up military pressure on extreme organizations like ISIS followed by an intense political pressure on local political leaders to improve people's participation in governance.

How naive can one get? The west has no intention of weakening these organizations. Haven't you seen the trend over the last 30-40 years i.e fund, train, arm and create evil monsters like Taliban, Al-qaeda, ISIS etc.,. It is a very sad situation but expect more of the same till those oil wells run dry.

by MaxEntropy_Man Sun Nov 15, 2015 11:19 am

truthbetold wrote:

Ordinary muslim in middle east is not waking up thinking about killing people in the west. They are more concerned about their family survival just like poor people around the world. The inability or unwillingness of local despotic rulers to show a democratic way to a better life leave them vulnerable to exploitation by extremist religious views.

I hope west uses Paris attack as a rallying cry to step up military pressure on extreme organizations like ISIS followed by an intense political pressure on local political leaders to improve people's participation in governance.

i don't know why you think i implied this. most of the terrorism in the west going forward is going to be committed by young men and women born and raised in the west, but attracted to a virulent radical islamic ideology. i was talking of these people specifically. intelligence and military actions are undoubtedly a necessary part of the solution, but the longer term permanent fix to this is also understanding and eliminating the ideology. if western societies don't get to the root of why young people born and raised in their countries are willing to visit harm on their compatriots, they are only going to come up with band-aid solutions.

by Marathadi-Saamiyaar Sun Nov 15, 2015 11:42 am

If you have dealt with drug addicts and their detoxification you will understand how difficult it is.

Koran addiction is even worse. First the muslims need to acknowledge their addiction - but it will never happen.

The Europeans and the Christian world (secretly) assumes that the muslims migrating to the West will adapt western ways and merge with Christianity. Their plans were reasonably wroking as hte ones who migrated till the 80s did marry whities and blended with the West.

But, those who migrated after the 80s are establishing iSlamic communities wherever they migrate - as their numbers are bigger - and sustain their medieval culture. The "liberal" component of the West is serving as fertilizer for this weed.

by confuzzled dude Sun Nov 15, 2015 12:02 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
truthbetold wrote:

Ordinary muslim in middle east is not waking up thinking about killing people in the west. They are more concerned about their family survival just like poor people around the world. The inability or unwillingness of local despotic rulers to show a democratic way to a better life leave them vulnerable to exploitation by extremist religious views.

I hope west uses Paris attack as a rallying cry to step up military pressure on extreme organizations like ISIS followed by an intense political pressure on local political leaders to improve people's participation in governance.

i don't know why you think i implied this. most of the terrorism in the west going forward is going to be committed by young men and women born and raised in the west, but attracted to a virulent radical islamic ideology. i was talking of these people specifically. intelligence and military actions are undoubtedly a necessary part of the solution, but the longer term permanent fix to this is also understanding and eliminating the ideology. if western societies don't get to the root of why young people born and raised in their countries are willing to visit harm on their compatriots, they are only going to come up with band-aid solutions.

British is trying a different approach, is not perfect but a start, I guess: https://such.forumotion.com/t33957-the-pre-terrorists-among-us

by truthbetold Sun Nov 15, 2015 12:11 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
truthbetold wrote:

Ordinary muslim in middle east is not waking up thinking about killing people in the west. They are more concerned about their family survival just like poor people around the world. The inability or unwillingness of local despotic rulers to show a democratic way to a better life leave them vulnerable to exploitation by extremist religious views.

I hope west uses Paris attack as a rallying cry to step up military pressure on extreme organizations like ISIS followed by an intense political pressure on local political leaders to improve people's participation in governance.

i don't know why you think i implied this. most of the terrorism in the west going forward is going to be committed by young men and women born and raised in the west, but attracted to a virulent radical islamic ideology. i was talking of these people specifically. intelligence and military actions are undoubtedly a necessary part of the solution, but the longer term permanent fix to this is also understanding and eliminating the ideology. if western societies don't get to the root of why young people born and raised in their countries are willing to visit harm on their compatriots, they are only going to come up with band-aid solutions.

If terrorist bases in middle east are fundamentally destroyed, do you expect locals from western nations sustaining a muslim vs rest fight? Would they have logistical support such a movement ? the source of extreme teachers and military traing are lost. Those resources cannot be easily created and sustained in the west.

If middle eastern bases remain intact (even if they change location), attacks by local born attacks remains a serious problem in west. West must destroy state protected terrorist training centers in all muslim countries to subsequently begin to solve jehadi problem with democratic solutions.

by truthbetold Sun Nov 15, 2015 12:25 pm

confuzzled dude wrote:
truthbetold wrote:
I hope west uses Paris attack as a rallying cry to step up military pressure on extreme organizations like ISIS followed by an intense political pressure on local political leaders to improve people's participation in governance.
How naive can one get? The west has no intention of weakening these organizations. Haven't you seen the trend over the last 30-40 years i.e fund, train, arm and create evil monsters like Taliban, Al-qaeda, ISIS etc.,. It is a very sad situation but expect more of the same till those oil wells run dry.

CD

It is this type of nonsensical conclusions that make your arguments so confused.

If Indian people are suffering from poverty, it is because of Indian governments policies after independence. imperialism has minimal role in those choices. Similarly, the muslim country leaders and masses have a responsibility to make choices of good form of government and good govt policies. If they could not get their act together and succumb to religious extremism, it is not imperialistic responsibility. If muslim masses are failing in getting their countries organized properly who is suffering? Muslims themselves. West is troubled a little bit but additional time at an extra metal detector at an NFL game is not the same pain as a middle eastern muslim's child being deprived of reasonable education.

People in middle east must change for their own good instead of waiting for west to change its policies. It is the future of middle eastern children that is at stake.

by confuzzled dude Sun Nov 15, 2015 12:41 pm

truthbetold wrote:
confuzzled dude wrote:
truthbetold wrote:
I hope west uses Paris attack as a rallying cry to step up military pressure on extreme organizations like ISIS followed by an intense political pressure on local political leaders to improve people's participation in governance.
How naive can one get? The west has no intention of weakening these organizations. Haven't you seen the trend over the last 30-40 years i.e fund, train, arm and create evil monsters like Taliban, Al-qaeda, ISIS etc.,. It is a very sad situation but expect more of the same till those oil wells run dry.

CD

It is this type of nonsensical conclusions that make your arguments so confused.

If Indian people are suffering from poverty, it is because of Indian governments policies after independence. imperialism has minimal role in those choices. Similarly, the muslim country leaders and masses have a responsibility to make choices of good form of government and good govt policies. If they could not get their act together and succumb to religious extremism, it is not imperialistic responsibility. If muslim masses are failing in getting their countries organized properly who is suffering? Muslims themselves. West is troubled a little bit but additional time at an extra metal detector at an NFL game is not the same pain as a middle eastern muslim's child being deprived of reasonable education.

People in middle east must change for their own good instead of waiting for west to change its policies. It is the future of middle eastern children that is at stake.

There is no confusion in my mind, it is folks like you that are confused. It has been the same old (American meddling) ever since I've started reading newspaper (as a kid). Going by your logic, which of the troubled countries from the latest round of debacle (Iraq, Syria), succumbed to religious extremism before the west decided to chime in and rescue them, would you mind enlightening confused souls like me?

by truthbetold Sun Nov 15, 2015 1:03 pm

Have you read the history of Iraq or Syria or Libya.

Saddam is a sunni. Iraq is 60% plus shia (if kurds are not counted, shia number's are far more). Saddam subjugated shia majority by brutal repression. There was a simmering discontent in shia areas for decades.

Syria is the reverse of Iraq. Bashar's dad is from minority Shia community and controlled majority sunni's through sheer fear.

Libyan leader mohd gaddafi is thug and was despised by different tribes under his rule.

They all used muslim religion to snuff out any kind of dissent by claiming to be anti muslim. All reform ovements died before they can take root and progressive change never even got out of ground.

West's profit making machine exploited middle eastern weaknesses. Remember Pakistan's democracy - it is what it is because of the choices made by paki people and their leaders.

These despotic rulers, muslim religious heads who wanted to retain control, and inability of muslim masses to organize themselves resulted in current mess. Yes. west stepped into this mess. Added their own poison. But the primary cause is internal harm caused by muslim masses and their leaders.

The middle east is a mess forever. Arab spring got western support. It did not change entire middle east but it is an indication of people's desire to change. The forces that opposed arab spring are despotic rulers, muslim religious leaders and merlot sipping pseudo seculars of such.

The reason for your confusion is clear to us. You only take those facts that support your world view into account and ignore others. It does not hurt to read more to gain some objectivity.

by confuzzled dude Sun Nov 15, 2015 1:12 pm

truthbetold wrote:
West's profit making machine exploited middle eastern weaknesses. Remember Pakistan's democracy - it is what it is because of the choices made by paki people and their leaders.

And that is perfectly alright in realpolitik (oil) driven world and by no means has contributed to this mess, whether they opposed Saddam before they supported him before which they opposed/supported his opponents, Did I get the gist of your long winded post, correctly?

by truthbetold Sun Nov 15, 2015 3:07 pm

confuzzled dude wrote:
truthbetold wrote:
West's profit making machine exploited middle eastern weaknesses. Remember Pakistan's democracy - it is what it is because of the choices made by paki people and their leaders.
And that is perfectly alright in realpolitik (oil) driven world and by no means has contributed to this mess, whether they opposed Saddam before they supported him before which they opposed/supported his opponents, Did I get the gist of your long winded post, correctly?

cd

we all know you have no use for all facts in a situation and you prefer cliff notes version of facts that suit your argument. But unfortunately history does not just disappear to match your whims.

here is another trick your type of pseudos play often. A problem is caused by more than one single cause. In this case west is one of the causes but root cause remains the middle eastern culture. You just keep harping on west as the source of all evil.

Your ability to understand would improve dramatically if your care to look outside political view point.

by confuzzled dude Sun Nov 15, 2015 8:34 pm

truthbetold wrote:
confuzzled dude wrote:
truthbetold wrote:
West's profit making machine exploited middle eastern weaknesses. Remember Pakistan's democracy - it is what it is because of the choices made by paki people and their leaders.
And that is perfectly alright in realpolitik (oil) driven world and by no means has contributed to this mess, whether they opposed Saddam before they supported him before which they opposed/supported his opponents, Did I get the gist of your long winded post, correctly?

cd

we all know you have no use for all facts in a situation and you prefer cliff notes version of facts that suit your argument. But unfortunately history does not just disappear to match your whims.

here is another trick your type of pseudos play often. A problem is caused by more than one single cause. In this case west is one of the causes but root cause remains the middle eastern culture. You just keep harping on west as the source of all evil.

Your ability to understand would improve dramatically if your care to look outside political view point.

I think I've improved my understanding dramatically by reading quiet a bit in the last few hours and looking outside the political view point, now I know what those other causes are: Martyrdom, Paradise and 72 virgins. Thanks for the edmucation.

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