Synthesis:Maharashtrians in Tamil Nadu who speak Tamil, and eat Idlis

by Guest Mon Jul 04, 2016 7:00 pm

CHENNAI: They speak Tamil fluently, love their idlis and filter coffee and are comfortable wearing the 'veshti' (dhoti) at home. Though they can trace their ancestry back to Maharashtra, Tamil Nadu is the only home that the Thanjavur Maharashtrian community has ever known.

"Our forefathers came down with Ekoji, Chhatrapati Shivaji's half-brother, more than 400 years ago when he established his empire in Thanjavur," says Shinde Rameshwar Rao, treasurer of Tamil Nadu Mahratta Association (TMA). "Most of us have been born and brought up in Chennai and our relatives are scattered in Thanjavur, Krishnagiri and Vellore." Today, there are about two lakh south Indian Maharashtrians in the city.

"We have integrated with the Tamil way of life as we have been here for centuries," says S Gokulsankar, TMA state president. Though they speak Marathi peppered with Tamil at home, all the literature of the association is in Tamil.
"My grandfather is from Pudukottai. We no longer remember what part of Maharashtra we are originally from," says Dr Devaji Rao, a surgeon and secretary of the Maharashtra Association. "Many people have dropped their surnames, and have south Indian names like Muralidharan and Srinivasan."

They are extremely proud of their cultural heritage and achievements. "When our forefathers came down, they even worked as labourers to earn a living," says Damodar Rao, TMA south unit president. In 1912, the Mahratta Education Fund was established to support the community's education. "Today, we are an average income community and have many doctors, engineers and lawyers," he adds.

The community gets together to celebrate Chhatrapati Shivaji Jayanthi and the Maharashtrian new year Gudi Padava. Even their weddings are a unique blend of Maharashtrian and Tamil rituals. "Since there are hardly any priests here who are familiar with our rituals, we follow the local rituals," says Rameshwar Rao. "But the groom still comes on a horse, turbans are mandatory and the bride wears the traditional nine-yard spree."

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Maharashtrians-in-TN-who-speak-Tamil-eat-idlis/articleshow/3690514.cms

by Guest Mon Jul 04, 2016 7:04 pm

Among Mumbai’s many multi-cultural communities is a small group that follows Marathi culture, but with a distinct stamp of Tamil Nadu. One of the many Marathi communities in the city, this one boasts of a historic past and takes pride in calling itself the south Indian-Maharashtrians.
Tanjore Marathis migrated along with Shivaji Maharaj’s half- brother Venkoji to the areas surrounding the district of Thanjavur back in the 1600s. The community speaks a dialect that is a mix of both Marathi and Tamil, commonly known as Thanjavur Marathi, sans a script.
Explaining how difficult it becomes for him to converse in Marathi, Chandrashekhar Rao, a Tanjore Marathi based in Mumbai, says, “As I was born and brought up in Tamil Nadu and later migrated to Mumbai, I am well-versed with Tamil. I can understand Marathi and manage speaking it, but don’t ask me to write it!”
Tanjore Marathis also migrated to other parts of the country in search of education and employment. However, the presence of their forefathers in the south for so long brought a blend of the west and south to their food, traditional rituals and cultural background.
“Marathis call it ‘dal’, we call it ‘sambhar’; for them it is ‘aamti’ (curry), for us it is ‘rasam’,” says Bhaskar Yogendra, secretary of South Indian Maharashtrian Association (SIMA), an organisation that promotes Marathi culture among the Maharashtrians settled in south India. “We celebrate Ugadi on the day of Gudi Padwa (new year for the Maharashtrians) and eat ‘tilgul’ to mark the occasion,” he says.

http://indianexpress.com/article/cities/mumbai/marathi-identity-with-tamil-flavour-2790955/

by Guest Mon Jul 04, 2016 7:10 pm

A family tradition – of sorts – is believed to have introduced sambar to the world. The story (with many deviations) goes that Shahuji Bhonsle, second Maratha ruler of Thanjavur (who reigned from 1684-1712), was to welcome cousin Sambhaji – son of Shivaji – to his palace. But preparations for a royal feast were hindered as kokum, used for Maharashtrian amti, was unavailable. So were supplies like moong dal, in whose place toor dal was used.

"Since there was no kokum, they used tamarind, the local souring agent. The dish, made almost by accident, was appreciated and named 'sambar' in honour of Sambhaji," explains Thanjavur native Nandini Vitthal. Vitthal belongs to the Thanjavur Maratha Deshastha community, whose forefathers were priests and officials in Thanjavur Maratha courts.

So the quintessentially-Tamilian sambar was a Maratha creation.

Reservations are rife about this story. But academic and food historian Pushpesh Pant believes it to be true. He says Thanjavur's Saraswati Mahal library has manuscripts that prove this, and adds: "The late KT Achaya (India's most famous food historian) noted there was no mention of sambar before the Thanjavur Maratha era."

That said, it doesn't help that our food history is either disputed or poorly documented. For one, Jayanti Rajagopalan, owner of Hyderabad-based culinary tour company Detours, points to a 1648 account of huli. "Huli, meaning 'tamarind' or 'sourness' in Kannada, was written about by Govinda Vaidya, a poet in the court of Wodeyar king Kanteerva Narasa Rajendra Vijaye. Described as toor dal cooked with vegetables, it was believed to be akin to sambar." Huli is prepared the same way too, except that it often has jaggery and coconut.

Whether or not sambar was a doffing of the hat to Sambhaji, there's no disagreement over the influence of the Thanjavur Marathis on Tamilian cuisine. When this relatively little-known community migrated from Maharashtra, it brought along dishes like puranpoli (boli in Tamil) and pitla (pitlai) and developed a unique cuisine, a confluence of Maharashtrian, Kannada and Tamilian fare. One of their contributions, says Padmini Natarajan, is none other than the divine brinjal dish, kathirikai rasavangi.

http://www.dnaindia.com/lifestyle/report-the-sambar-saga-on-the-provenance-and-many-variations-of-a-south-indian-staple-2117363

by Kayalvizhi Mon Jul 04, 2016 7:16 pm

People loiving in Tamil Nadu should speak Tamil and et Tamil foods. What is so big about it?

I live in America, I speak English and eat steak.

by Guest Mon Jul 04, 2016 7:20 pm

Kayalvizhi wrote:People loiving in Tamil Nadu should speak Tamil and et Tamil foods. What is so big about it?

I live in America, I speak English and eat steak.

the claim is being made that Maharashtrians in Tamil Nadu invented/created sambar, boli, pitlai, kathirikai rasavangi and other dishes (see the previous posts in this thread). Should nationalist tamils stop or at least avoid eating dishes created or invented by Maharashtrians?

Note that Tamils in America did not invent or create the preparation of steak. So your comparison is fallacious.

by Vakavaka Pakapaka Mon Jul 04, 2016 7:21 pm

Kayalvizhi wrote:People loiving in Tamil Nadu should speak Tamil and et Tamil foods. What is so big about it?

I live in America, I speak English and eat steak.

Hey Kayar,
So....., if you live in Swat valley, will you be "very friendly" to donkeys, wear a "belt" and piecefully prepare for 72 in the other world?

by Guest Wed Jul 06, 2016 12:21 am

The renaissance of culture and music during the Maratha regime in Thanjavur gave rebirth to an instrument that had disappeared completely from the concert scene. Chitraveena or Gottuvadhyam owes its existence to Sakharama Rao, a Maharashtrian who lived in Thiruvidaimarudur, a temple town near Kumbakonam, between 1903 and 1959.

“Even though the instrument has found a reference in Bharatha’s Natya Shastra, it found no takers for almost 150 years till Sakharama Rao arrived at the scene. He re-invented and re-designed the instrument and introduced it to concert platforms,” said Chitraveena exponent N. Ravikiranan.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/chennai/the-maharashtrian-who-revived-chitraveena/article8059955.ece

by MaxEntropy_Man Wed Jul 06, 2016 5:58 am

Rashmun wrote:The renaissance of culture and music during the Maratha regime in Thanjavur gave rebirth to an instrument that had disappeared completely from the concert scene. Chitraveena or Gottuvadhyam owes its existence to Sakharama Rao, a Maharashtrian who lived in Thiruvidaimarudur, a temple town near Kumbakonam, between 1903 and 1959.

“Even though the instrument has found a reference in Bharatha’s Natya Shastra, it found no takers for almost 150 years till Sakharama Rao arrived at the scene. He re-invented and re-designed the instrument and introduced it to concert platforms,” said Chitraveena exponent N. Ravikiranan.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/chennai/the-maharashtrian-who-revived-chitraveena/article8059955.ece

why this sudden interest in musical synthesis? in any case, all this happened organically without any decree or fiat. thanjavur maharashtrians are integral to the thanjavur music scene. after all the original purpose their ancestors were sent to thanjavur was to foster cross-cultural artistic scholarship.

also google palladam sanjeeva rao, another great pioneer.

till flute mali (mahalingam) appeared on the scene, he was the sole carnatic flutist. mali of course was a capricious and thoroughly eccentric genius.

http://www.thehindu.com/features/friday-review/music/a-star-in-his-time/article4856358.ece

my paternal grandfather's family known in the thanjavur region for leading advocates, employed a number of thanjavur maharashtrians in their offices. i still remember quite a few of them -- they usually had names like haridas and sivadas and unless someone told you of their marathi heritage you'd take them to be tamilians (which in fact they were; their connection to marathi and maharashtra by the mid twentieth century had become quite tenuous).

by Guest Wed Jul 06, 2016 8:28 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Rashmun wrote:The renaissance of culture and music during the Maratha regime in Thanjavur gave rebirth to an instrument that had disappeared completely from the concert scene. Chitraveena or Gottuvadhyam owes its existence to Sakharama Rao, a Maharashtrian who lived in Thiruvidaimarudur, a temple town near Kumbakonam, between 1903 and 1959.

“Even though the instrument has found a reference in Bharatha’s Natya Shastra, it found no takers for almost 150 years till Sakharama Rao arrived at the scene. He re-invented and re-designed the instrument and introduced it to concert platforms,” said Chitraveena exponent N. Ravikiranan.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/chennai/the-maharashtrian-who-revived-chitraveena/article8059955.ece

why this sudden interest in musical synthesis? in any case, all this happened organically without any decree or fiat. thanjavur maharashtrians are integral to the thanjavur music scene. after all the original purpose their ancestors were sent to thanjavur was to foster cross-cultural artistic scholarship.

also google palladam sanjeeva rao, another great pioneer.

till flute mali (mahalingam) appeared on the scene, he was the sole carnatic flutist. mali of course was a capricious and thoroughly eccentric genius.

http://www.thehindu.com/features/friday-review/music/a-star-in-his-time/article4856358.ece

my paternal grandfather's family known in the thanjavur region for leading advocates, employed a number of thanjavur maharashtrians in their offices. i still remember quite a few of them -- they usually had names like haridas and sivadas and unless someone told you of their marathi heritage you'd take them to be tamilians (which in fact they were; their connection to marathi and maharashtra by the mid twentieth century had become quite tenuous).

as per what i have posted in this thread, and also as per a lot of online material, Tanjore Maharashtrians do speak Marathi with the caveat that their Marathi is a hybrid language in as much as it is laced with Tamil. Of course, they also speak Tamil. According to what i read online Tanjore Marathis say they can understand the Marathi of a Maharashtrian born and brought up in Maharashtra, but the Maharashtrian of Maharashtra cannot understand their Marathi.

I agree that the best and most long lasting type of cultural synthesis is one which happens naturally and organically. however, cultural synthesis can be impeded, or alternatively encouraged, by the policy towards culture of the political rulers. For example, here is an instance of how the authorities can discourage and impede culinary synthesis:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/foodanddrink/foodanddrinknews/8827721/Italian-town-bans-any-new-kebab-shops-or-other-ethnic-food.html

by Guest Wed Jul 06, 2016 8:46 am

Max, what are your thoughts on a Maharashtrian being the hereditary trustee of the Brihadeeshwara Temple? More on this here:

http://www.theweekendleader.com/Headlines/3247/tamil-groups-want-maratha-hold-over-thanjavur-big-temple-to-go.html

http://www.thehindu.com/features/metroplus/translating-words-into-deeds/article675015.ece

by garam_kuta Wed Jul 06, 2016 11:10 am

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Rashmun wrote:The renaissance of culture and music during the Maratha regime in Thanjavur gave rebirth to an instrument that had disappeared completely from the concert scene. Chitraveena or Gottuvadhyam owes its existence to Sakharama Rao, a Maharashtrian who lived in Thiruvidaimarudur, a temple town near Kumbakonam, between 1903 and 1959.

“Even though the instrument has found a reference in Bharatha’s Natya Shastra, it found no takers for almost 150 years till Sakharama Rao arrived at the scene. He re-invented and re-designed the instrument and introduced it to concert platforms,” said Chitraveena exponent N. Ravikiranan.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/chennai/the-maharashtrian-who-revived-chitraveena/article8059955.ece

why this sudden interest in musical synthesis? in any case, all this happened organically without any decree or fiat. thanjavur maharashtrians are integral to the thanjavur music scene. after all the original purpose their ancestors were sent to thanjavur was to foster cross-cultural artistic scholarship.

also google palladam sanjeeva rao, another great pioneer.

till flute mali (mahalingam) appeared on the scene, he was the sole carnatic flutist. mali of course was a capricious and thoroughly eccentric genius.

http://www.thehindu.com/features/friday-review/music/a-star-in-his-time/article4856358.ece

my paternal grandfather's family known in the thanjavur region for leading advocates, employed a number of thanjavur maharashtrians in their offices. i still remember quite a few of them -- they usually had names like haridas and sivadas and unless someone told you of their marathi heritage you'd take them to be tamilians (which in fact they were; their connection to marathi and maharashtra by the mid twentieth century had become quite tenuous).

hmmm..so hard not to resist to refer you to propa's signature tag Wink

most of these synthesis posts seem to 'question' the traditional attributes credited to the indigenous people of certain regions, ie., most knowledge came only from faraway places, and transplanted to the locals.

by MaxEntropy_Man Wed Jul 06, 2016 11:23 am

garam_kuta wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Rashmun wrote:The renaissance of culture and music during the Maratha regime in Thanjavur gave rebirth to an instrument that had disappeared completely from the concert scene. Chitraveena or Gottuvadhyam owes its existence to Sakharama Rao, a Maharashtrian who lived in Thiruvidaimarudur, a temple town near Kumbakonam, between 1903 and 1959.

“Even though the instrument has found a reference in Bharatha’s Natya Shastra, it found no takers for almost 150 years till Sakharama Rao arrived at the scene. He re-invented and re-designed the instrument and introduced it to concert platforms,” said Chitraveena exponent N. Ravikiranan.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/chennai/the-maharashtrian-who-revived-chitraveena/article8059955.ece

why this sudden interest in musical synthesis? in any case, all this happened organically without any decree or fiat. thanjavur maharashtrians are integral to the thanjavur music scene. after all the original purpose their ancestors were sent to thanjavur was to foster cross-cultural artistic scholarship.

also google palladam sanjeeva rao, another great pioneer.

till flute mali (mahalingam) appeared on the scene, he was the sole carnatic flutist. mali of course was a capricious and thoroughly eccentric genius.

http://www.thehindu.com/features/friday-review/music/a-star-in-his-time/article4856358.ece

my paternal grandfather's family known in the thanjavur region for leading advocates, employed a number of thanjavur maharashtrians in their offices. i still remember quite a few of them -- they usually had names like haridas and sivadas and unless someone told you of their marathi heritage you'd take them to be tamilians (which in fact they were; their connection to marathi and maharashtra by the mid twentieth century had become quite tenuous).

hmmm..so hard not to resist to refer you to propa's signature tag

most of these synthesis posts seem to 'question' the traditional attributes credited to the indigenous people of certain regions, ie., most knowledge came only from faraway places, and transplanted to the locals.

oh i am well aware of that. just play along occasionally. i am sure the OP wouldn't know a gottuvadhyam if it bit him on his derriere, but is making posts about its origins. this is like me trying to research the history of tuvan throat singing without having the first clue about what it sounds like.

by Guest Wed Jul 06, 2016 12:50 pm

MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
garam_kuta wrote:
MaxEntropy_Man wrote:
Rashmun wrote:The renaissance of culture and music during the Maratha regime in Thanjavur gave rebirth to an instrument that had disappeared completely from the concert scene. Chitraveena or Gottuvadhyam owes its existence to Sakharama Rao, a Maharashtrian who lived in Thiruvidaimarudur, a temple town near Kumbakonam, between 1903 and 1959.

“Even though the instrument has found a reference in Bharatha’s Natya Shastra, it found no takers for almost 150 years till Sakharama Rao arrived at the scene. He re-invented and re-designed the instrument and introduced it to concert platforms,” said Chitraveena exponent N. Ravikiranan.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/chennai/the-maharashtrian-who-revived-chitraveena/article8059955.ece

why this sudden interest in musical synthesis? in any case, all this happened organically without any decree or fiat. thanjavur maharashtrians are integral to the thanjavur music scene. after all the original purpose their ancestors were sent to thanjavur was to foster cross-cultural artistic scholarship.

also google palladam sanjeeva rao, another great pioneer.

till flute mali (mahalingam) appeared on the scene, he was the sole carnatic flutist. mali of course was a capricious and thoroughly eccentric genius.

http://www.thehindu.com/features/friday-review/music/a-star-in-his-time/article4856358.ece

my paternal grandfather's family known in the thanjavur region for leading advocates, employed a number of thanjavur maharashtrians in their offices. i still remember quite a few of them -- they usually had names like haridas and sivadas and unless someone told you of their marathi heritage you'd take them to be tamilians (which in fact they were; their connection to marathi and maharashtra by the mid twentieth century had become quite tenuous).

hmmm..so hard not to resist to refer you to propa's signature tag

most of these synthesis posts seem to 'question' the traditional attributes credited to the indigenous people of certain regions, ie., most knowledge came only from faraway places, and transplanted to the locals.

oh i am well aware of that. just play along occasionally. i am sure the OP wouldn't know a gottuvadhyam if it bit him on his derriere, but is making posts about its origins. this is like me trying to research the history of tuvan throat singing without having the first clue about what it sounds like.

these posts are being written from the perspective of a generalist, not a specialist. because of this, i need not know details of what a gottuvadhyam is so long as i know that it is a musical instrument used in carnatic classical music performances. the main thrust of my post is not on the gottuvadhyam but on the fact that it was invented, or rather reinvented, by a Maharashtrian who was of course born and brought up in TN.

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Synthesis:Maharashtrians in Tamil Nadu who speak Tamil, and eat Idlis

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Re: Synthesis:Maharashtrians in Tamil Nadu who speak Tamil, and eat Idlis

Re: Synthesis:Maharashtrians in Tamil Nadu who speak Tamil, and eat Idlis

Re: Synthesis:Maharashtrians in Tamil Nadu who speak Tamil, and eat Idlis

Re: Synthesis:Maharashtrians in Tamil Nadu who speak Tamil, and eat Idlis

Re: Synthesis:Maharashtrians in Tamil Nadu who speak Tamil, and eat Idlis

Re: Synthesis:Maharashtrians in Tamil Nadu who speak Tamil, and eat Idlis

Re: Synthesis:Maharashtrians in Tamil Nadu who speak Tamil, and eat Idlis

Re: Synthesis:Maharashtrians in Tamil Nadu who speak Tamil, and eat Idlis

Re: Synthesis:Maharashtrians in Tamil Nadu who speak Tamil, and eat Idlis

Re: Synthesis:Maharashtrians in Tamil Nadu who speak Tamil, and eat Idlis

Re: Synthesis:Maharashtrians in Tamil Nadu who speak Tamil, and eat Idlis